Conference azur::mcc

    Well, I suspect the VAXstation 3200 listing is an error.
    
    I didn't think the requirements for V1.3 changed at all from V1.2
    but I haven't checked the final docs.
    
    Reality is that 32mb or less of memory is simply not sufficient to
    do anything real with DECmc on a VAXstation. So, systems that cannot
    be expanded to more memory are not officially supported (keep in mind
    that the SPD/SSA is the agreement between Digital and the customer
    as to what will work acceptibly). So, if it isn't listed as supported
    we don't want to get problem calls from customers that the product
    runs too slow etc.
    
    Another reality is that less than 6 vups is not really enough either.
    Things start taking so long that they get in the way of other things
    and the user frustration level gets high. Again, in a real
    deployment the user is likely to have multiple instances of DECmcc
    running on the system (Historian and Exporter Backgrounds, maybe an
    alarm manager background as well as an FCL and MAP. Lots of scheduling
    computes and lots of memory.
    
    So, the V1.2 guideline was 6 vups or better (so we preserve the
    existing VS3100/76 systems) and 32mb. We found that 32 mb really
    was not enough so I suspect for V1.3 it was upped to 48mb.
    
    Now, I do testing on a VS3100/30 with 24mb and I can say from first
    hand experiance that this system is no where near enough to be used
    in a real management environment.
    
    <enable soapbox>
    IMHO I feel that the systems Digital has been using to teach some of
    the more complex systems have been seriously undersized for years.
    They are certainly much smaller than we would ever expect a customer to
    actually use. In several classes I have taken in the past 4 years the
    class quality (meaning what I got out of the class) sufered
    tremendously as a result of problems we had to overcome with the base
    systems before we could focus on the course material (you ever try
    bringing up Mailbus Message Router on a VS2000 with 8mb?).
    
    The reality is that the systems that Digital has been selling to
    customers since 1990 have been increasing in performace by leaps and
    bounds. This has enabled the company to produce products that would not
    have been possible (or perhaps affordable to customers) before. This
    has been the result of competitive pressure from other suppliers.
    <disable soapbox>
    
    So, you can still RUN the stuff on the smaller systems, I do. But, I
    don't think Digital is doing the best it could for the customer when
    undersized systems are used.
    
    s/rob                       

I agree with -.1.  The systems that Ed Srvcs has are seriously 
underconfigured.  I went to teach a DECmcc development course and was 
horrified to see that each system only had 16 Mb.  You won't find any 
systems at customer sites that do any reasonable work with less than 24 
and most have 32 Mb or more.

The reality of the situation is that GUIs take lots of memory and 
multi-threaded processes can require lots of memory.  As more and more 
of Digital's products become GUI-oriented and multi-threaded, you will 
see growing requirements for memory and VUPs.

standing on the soapbaox,
...kjn

    
    Thank you for the responses...
    
    The systems I am using are VAXstation 3100 Model 38 with 32meg of
    memory, 2 RZ55 disks, and an SPX graphics adapters. I had THOUGHT that
    this should be adequate to teach DECmcc, I have 14 of these things and
    now you are telling me I am underconfigured??!! Maybe you might be able
    to just turn around and order new equipment but I sure can't!! I have
    to hope that somebody screams at the powers that be to the point where
    they take some action to provide more equipment. To be honest, I don't
    really think that will happen anytime soon.
    
    I sure wish you folks would have sent out a cover letter (at least
    internally) making some kind of recommendation for *** A REAL *** minimum
    configuration that will support the product for the forseeable future
    in a small to medium network management environment!!
    
    On the off chance that someone will ask me my opinion, what would YOU
    suggest I order to teach this product?? Keeping in mind that during a
    class we might, in the absolute worst case, be exporting two or three
    things, recording historical data on two or three things, and
    monitoring a half dozen alarms. What would be a reasonable
    CPU/memory/disks/graphics system for our needs in the forseeable
    future??
    
    BTW - I am a strong supporter of DECmcc/Polycenter, it is an impressive
    product! My concern is that times are hard in DEC (as if you didn't
    know that already) and I want any spending I recommend to accurately
    reflect and meet our needs, and the needs of our students for some time
    to come.
    
    		Again.... Thanks for the responses
    		
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

Why not run the configuration tool and see what it says....

    
    REF: .4
    
    >>> Why not run the configuration tool and see what it says....
    
    I am not interested in what is supported right now!! I want to know
    what I should get that will REMAIN supported over the next few
    releases! 

>    I am not interested in what is supported right now!! I want to know
>    what I should get that will REMAIN supported over the next few
>    releases! 

Just so you know how to set your calendar on this one:
What you want will happen when
        - operating system requirements stop changing
        - layered products that the system relies on (CMA, DCE et al) stop
          changing
        - price/performance (or at least is defined in terms and
          configurations that orderable by development.  
        - product development is rewarded for delivering system sizing
          information instead of being punished for taking the *time* to do
          it.  
        - all users have the same system requirements and configurations 
        - someone defines how long between and the capabilities of "...the
          next few releases"

I think you get the idea.

/doug

    
    
    Thank you for the insight into the situation.
    
    Like everyone else, you are being pulled in directions that are not of
    your choosing and must deal with realities that are not to your liking.
    
    I guess the bottom line for me is I will offer classes with what I have
    until it will no longer work and hope that someone provides the proper
    equipment before that time! If,by that time, new equipment isn't at
    least on the horizon, I'll just have to drop the product and move on to
    something else (sigh...)  
    
    

One thing you can do the next time you purchase equipment is to make 
sure that you don't buy bounded hardware, like the 3100.  Buy hardware
that has a lot of memory and disk expansion room. 

...kjn

    In all fairness, I suspect that when the 3100s were bought, they were
    considered a reasonable configuration. I know that when I got my
    3100/30, the /76s were just coming out and we all thought 32mb was
    a lot of memory. Now, that was 3 years ago...
    
    Another problem that we all have is that the lifetime of a system is
    closer to 2-3 years before it is mostly obsolete from a performance
    (and likely price view) but many companies (Digital included)
    still capitalize stuff for 5 years. Sigh...
    
    Now to the real question... You certainly can continue to teach with
    the model /38s. The memory config is kinda ok but experiance has shown
    it to be a bit on the light side.
    
    When looking at new purchases, check the SPDs early. Note that they
    will specify a MINIMUM reccomended configuration. This is the
    smallest NEW system that should possibly be bought for use.
    
    Also look at the minimum supported configurations. That will tell you
    what the MINIMUM size system is to JUST GET THINGS TO RUN. It will
    not have good performance nor will it permit multiple instances of
    mcc to run (the exporter, the historian, the FCL and the Iconic map
    should all be considered as separate instances). In general I would
    expect that I could run ONE FCL process well from a minimum config.
    
    Keep in mind that (not just DECmcc) products expand to fill resources
    and so expect future versions to expect more (memory, cpu, disk) than
    the use today.
    
    So, when you DO decide to get some new stuff (and you should get SOME
    new every year so you don't end up with a whole lab full of old stuff)
    take the above into consideration.
    
    What do I reccomend? Well let me say this. When we order systems (or
    rent them) for use at trade shows or any demo that we expect customers
    to see, we get either VAXstation 4000/90s with 128mb of memory and
    a pair of RZ58s or a DECstation 5000/240 with 128mb and a pair of
    RZ58s.
    
    For your use you could get away with one large disk and perhaps one
    extra that you kept a clean copy of the system on so you can restore
    a training system to virgin condition after the students have improved
    them:-)
    
    I hope this helps a bit.
    
    s/rob