Conference azur::mcc

    Since updating the dictionary is not something you'll probably do very
    often, why do you want to know?

That is actually a worst-case guess.  If you never installed the
AM before, and you are on a fast, unloaded machine with lots of memory
it goes much quicker. (Less than an hour?)

Jerry Plouffe can go in to details, but the hold-up appears to be
the process of going in and deleting the old parse table and dictionary entries,
before putting them back in to the dictionary again.  Everybody knows
about how painful this is, and believe it or not, it has improved
incredibly!  I think Jerry has even more ideas for speeding it up, and
we may see those with V2.0.

-Dave

 Ren�:

  Dave is right on the money.  The deletion of dictionary data from the
  main dictionary file and the parse table file is very time consuming. This
  deletion occurs whenever you do a DAP "UPDATE" command.  This command is 
  typically used by installation procedures (like the TSAM install).  If this 
  is the first time a particular kit is being installed, no deletion will be 
  necessary and the dictionary will update much faster.

  I don't think that it is really necessary for me to explain this in any more
  detail in this notes file.  Suffice it to say that this area is currently
  being worked on.  This performance problem will not be fixed for V1.3, but
  we are looking to solve this problem in the Vnext release by utilizing some
  new dictionary technology (from the Common Agent project).

                                                                       - Jerry

    Jerry,
    
    
    <FLAME ON>
    
    I have had to reinstall the TS AM module and I feel that it is a piece
    of crap, excuse the expression.
    
    The MCC_TS_AM_CONFIG gets stuck and the only way out is a CTRL C. It
    creates the file OK but the rest. If I was an external customer, I
    would not use DECMCC, it is the greatest piece of crap I have seen in
    years. The EMA architecture is excellent in principle but in practise
    it is just over kill and I can understand why we have not had great
    success in the market place.
    
    It is constantly breaking, I have managed to crash DECMCC a few times,
    the time it takes to AUTOCONFIG 3 level 2 routers is TOTALLY
    unacceptable. A simple NCP TELL command will give me the information I
    want.
    
    What I do like about it is some of the excellent features it has, it is
    a shame that the performance is so poor. I would like to use it and
    recommend it to clients but having had this experience with it, I would
    not want to lose a customer because I recommended DECMCC.
    
    <FLAME OFF>
    
    I hope that these issues will be fixed because until then it is a non
    starter. Look at the COMPETITIVE tools around, they may not be EMA or
    use ISO standards but after all, customers need to manage their
    networks today.
    
    Have a nice day and maybe I will eventually get to do some real work
    with DECMCC.
    
    Ren�

Ren�,

I'm sorry to hear you didn't get what you wanted.  Actually Jerry
has very little to do with what your problems appear to be, since he
supports the dictionary.

I'm the TSAM developer, and the person your flame should have been addressed
to.  In any case, I would like to know exactly what went wrong with the
TSM to MCC_TS_AM CONFIG process.  Was it while you were running the
MCC_TSM_CONVERT command file, or was it when you executed the MCC_TS_AM_CONFIG
script from FCL?

Are you running the latest version of TSAM? (V1.0.2) (do a
SHOW MCC 0 TERMSERVER_AM ALL CHAR)  The latest copy available on 
TOOK::DSV$KITS$:[SAVESETS.TSAM.V102] has a fix to one known hanging problem.
You'll be pleased to find that this new kit does not require a re-instal of
the dreaded dictionary, and thus will run very quickly, just answer No to
all of the update questions.

-Dave

    re: .4
    
    And could we also hear your negative comments?
    

    Overlooking the point that you are defining MCC as TSAM and vise-versa,
    your other two points are 1) Quality, and 2) Performance.  What version
    of MCC are you running?  If you post how you "crashed" MCC I would be
    glad to personally enter the QARs (as Show-Stoppers), and see they are
    addressed.  Performance, Ease of Use, and expanded SNMP features are
    the major themes of MCC V1.3, so that is hopefully good news to you.
    Fortunately, you did provide _some_ constructive information, instead
    of simply screaming, swearing, and gnashing your teeth.  Stay tuned,
    this product seems to be going the right direction.  If you can bear
    the initial labor pains, I think you will like what you end up with.
    
    -Matt.

Ren�:

  I hear you.  We all hear you.  We know, better than anyone, the pitfalls in
  the current product.  As far as the dictionary is concerned (my favorite
  topic ;) ) there are still many shortcomings.  These shortcomings primarily
  rear their ugly heads during installation when the dictionary normally gets
  updated.

  Unfortunately, the current dictionary problems cannot be resolved by making 
  small, "bandage" type fixes.  We have decided that the only way to solve our
  dictionary problems is to utilize some new technology (from the Common Agent
  project).  This new technology is radically different from our current code
  and could not (safely) be included in the v1.3 release.  It, however, is slated
  to be included in the next release.  I hate making early promises, but I think
  I can safely say that this new technology will be significantly better than
  what we have today.  Please stay tuned and bear with us.  As Matt said, 
  "I think you will like what you end up with".

                                                                       - Jerry

    When can I test the V1.3. I would be glad to do so if it really offers
    some major improvements.
    
    Ren�

    Matt,
    
    I am running MCCBMS V1.2.3
    
    Ren�
    
    

>    When can I test the V1.3. I would be glad to do so if it really offers
>    some major improvements.
>    

    Last I looked, FT release was scheduled for 11/23/92.    

    Installation is still going to take a loooong time (if you choose the
    'upgrade' option), so please set your expectations accordingly.   This
    can't be avoided (due to the dictionary issues that Jerry et al brought
    up) so please don't 'light up' again about that. However, once it's
    installed, you should notice some interesting new features and
    improvements.

    ./doug

    Doug,
    
    I will try it anyway. I have deleted the whole lot and I will start
    again. 
    
    I need a pointer to the latest and greatest kits. Is there a list of
    the optional modules available. I need TS & ELMS AM & FM , SNMP etc.
    
    
    Ren�

    Being a field test site requires that you provide constructive feedback
    on the product.  Judging from your remarks in .4 I would strongly
    recommend that you avoid field test situations.

    Jim,
    
    I would accept these problems as a field test site but not as a
    production product. I have field tested many network products in the
    past and will provide the feedback (descrete) concerning the product
    neing tested.
    
    There is a big difference when you have certain expectations of a
    released product and you get a quarter of what you expected. I did also
    mention some positive points. I fully support and like the
    architecture.
    
    Ren�

| There is a big difference when you have certain expectations of a
| released product and you get a quarter of what you expected.

    I asked a question in .1 that went unanswered, specifically, why is the
    time it takes to update the dictionary so important?  Is the customer
    developing management modules and performing lots of dictionary
    updates?

    Updating the dictionary is usually only done at product installation
    time.  I don't think that having a product install real fast is that
    great a goal, since ideally you would only be doing that once.  Why is
    this such an important issue for you and your customer?

    Ed,
    
    I find that the product is generally slow. It is important that the
    installation is fast. 5 hours to install a product seems a lot when you
    think that the other point products available take a few minutes.
    
    It is all around perception. "If the installation is long", the
    perception is that the product is long and today that is the case.
    
    The customer is me. I manage the network for the site and I want to
    PLUG & PLAY quickly. The only other product I have seen which can take
    so long to install is ALL-IN-1.
    
    Why not add a note in the installation guide saying that a first time
    installation will take so much time but updates do not, why not
    re-assure people. Another point is that there is no clear indication
    during the installation that everything installed correctly. There is
    no informartion message sayin "Please Ignore" etc.
    
    Ren�

    I am curious as to the hardware platform you are using. What CPU,
    disks and memory do you have.
    
    s/rob

    I have a 3900, with 48 Mb memory, a RA90 and RA82 disk.
    
    Ren�