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Conference azur::mcc

Title:DECmcc user notes file. Does not replace IPMT.
Notice:Use IPMT for problems. Newsletter location in note 6187
Moderator:TAEC::BEROUD
Created:Mon Aug 21 1989
Last Modified:Wed Jun 04 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:6497
Total number of notes:27359

3535.0. "Impact of ULTRIX/SQL (INGRES) retirement?" by ZPOVC::RAMARAJ () Tue Aug 11 1992 11:23

    There are mails floating around saying that ULTRIX/SQL will not be bundled
    with ULTRIX V4.3 onwards.  The product is going to retire 31 Dec 1993.
    
    What's the impact of this on the ULTRIX MCC exporter and reporting
    functions?
    
    Could someone advise on the strategy, what to tell customers, etc...
    
    Raj
    Singapore
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
3535.1BUY SQL from Ingres directHERON::PATEL_ALoLo-AQIC-I82Q-B4IP, - LMFTue Aug 11 1992 12:309
    Raj,

    my understanding is that the product is NOT being retired, its not
    being shipped with Ultrix, or by DEC.  The customer has to buy it
    directly from Ingres -- upto now Ingress have said they will support
    Ingres SQL on Ultrix, I believe they are planning to move to OSF1.

    Now as to if it will be supported will it work etc -- that's another
    ball game.
3535.2Ultrix/SQL US migration & impact on DECmccDELNI::FERREIRATue Aug 11 1992 16:2450
Information on the Ultrix/SQL retirement is below for the 
US migration, but each geography is different. Europe and GIA have chosen 
to "do their own thing".  Specifically, Europe and Australian marketing 
organizations have worked directly with their Ingres counterparts to 
design migration programs specific to their geographies.  It's my impression 
from Ingres that their folks have programs in place and are merely 
awaiting our phasedown announcement.

I don't know who the GIA contact is.  Europe has been more visible.  Our 
contact there is Pat Reidy at ESSB::REIDY.  The U/SQL Marketing Manager, Mark 
Silverberg, may know who the GIA contact would be.

So, as far as DECmcc, we currently work with Ingres, we'll continue to
support that, and are evaluating the need to support other databases, also.
Thus, new customers will need to buy Ultrix/SQL from Ingres directly to 
use the DECmcc Exporter.

Gail

From:	DECWET::APPELLOF "USSG DB/TP Product Manager - dtn 548-8729  04-Aug-1992 
0815"  4-AUG-1992 17:15:24.78
To:	DELNI::FERREIRA
Subj:	RE: Ultrix/SQL use by DECmcc - this time with the message !

Gail,

ULTRIX/SQL will enter product phasedown later this month.  All customers on 
ULTRIX operating system service contracts (in U.S.) will be receiving a 
notification letter.  In short:

	- The no-charge license for U/SQL will no longer be available as of the
		release of ULTRIX V4.3.

	- Customer support will end 12/31/93.

	- For layered products with a dependency upon ULTRIX/SQL, the part
		number for the media & doc kit will be active, but non-printing
		in USLP until (at least) 12/93.  I will separately send you and
		Marc a copy of the notification letter than we sent the affected
		product groups last week.  DECwest engineering is willing to 
		work with any group that needs distribution kits, etc.

	- Customers (in U.S.) will be receiving a direct mailing with an offer
		to migrate to Ingres at approximately 50% discount.  This offer
		will be good until end of February.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

- Kathy

3535.3Status update from MSU engineeringSKIBUM::GASSMANWed Aug 19 1992 13:30165
    The following mail is posted with permission from the author.  It
    regards MSU's plans for use of Ingres in the future, and does a good
    job of updating where we are.  MCC is being considered in the process.
    
    
From:	ENUF::ASDS::PUOPLO "JERRY PUOPLO MSU PRODUCT MANAGEMENT 276-9068  
    17-Aug-1992 1435" 19-AUG-1992 03:49:09.02
Subj:	Ingres Status



Date:   August 17, 1992

To:     Brad Kennedy

cc:     W. Mackey, G. Moody, B. Kelley, R. Harvey, K. Appellof, N. Gustavesen,
        L. Singband, D. Andersen

Subj:   Status On MSU Ultrix/SQL Retirement Impact and Ingres VAR Arrangements

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background:
----------

Since 1989, Digital Equipment Corporation and Ingres Corporation had a contract 
by which Digital resold Ingres's DBMS  as the Digital product Ultrix/SQL. Under
this contract, Ultrix/SQL was an optional component of the Ultrix operating 
system. A no-cost Ultrix/SQL license was included with the  purchase of the 
Ultrix Operating System, and custome simply ordered QA-YHTAB-H5, the ULTRIX/SQL
documentation and TK50 media kit if they needed it. 

Last week, Digital's David Stone and Ingres management signed off on an amend-
ment to the Ultrix/SQL contract that effectively starts the retirement of
Ultrix/SQL effective August 28, 1992.  With its retirement, Digital decided not
to offer Ultrix/SQL with Ultrix 4.3, which is due to ship this September.

The retirement of Ultrix/SQL raises both short and long term actions on our
part to continue MSU's activities with Ingres.  The short term actions are
related to our MSU v1.2 rollout efforts.  The longer term actions are related
to having a VAR arrangement with Ingres that allows us to continue development
efforts with Ingres independent of Ultrix/SQL.


MSU V1.2 Actions
----------------

Over the last six months, Kathy Appellof, the Ultrix/SQL product manager, has
been aware of DECmcc Management Station for Ultrix's dependency on ULtrix/SQL
as she  negotiated the retirement plan for Ultrix/SQL.  From Kathy, we are 
told that in simplistic terms,  retirement means:

  a)  Ultrix 4.3 will no longer offer or claim support for ULTRIX/SQL

  b)  QA-YHTAB-H5 as of 1-SEP-1992 will be non-printing in the USLP but 
      available for ordering by new MSU users till DEC 1993. 


According to Kathy Appellof we can:

  a)  continue as we do, referencing in our SPD and other material
     the need for MSU customers to order QA-YHTAB-H5 seperately from MSU.

                                   - or -

  b) modify MSU's Bill Of Material (BOM)  so that Ultrix/SQL's software 
     kit and documentation is shipped with MSU. Other products, e.g. FullSail
     are doing this. All it takes is coordination between our SSB planner, Pat
     Gerry and the Ultrix/SQL planner Jeanne o'Dell.)
     

Our right to do either of the above is  covered in Section 2b of Ammendment 3 
as follows:

   " Digital retains the right to distribute Digital media and documentation
     kits as required to their existing layered product groups identified as
     DEC Test Manager for Ultrix, DECmcc  Management Station for Ultrix, 
     TPframe and Fullsail until December 1993; and to honor existing sales 
     commitements up to sixty (60) days from 1 September 1992.               "
                      
We have already determined it is in our best interest to have the BOM updated
for MSU V1.2 to include Ultrix/SQL sw and docs with MSU v1.2 kits. Unless you
designate otherwise, we will proceed with this course of action.
    
The main MSU V1.2 problem we have with Ultrix/SQL retirement is that the
Ultrix software group is NOT supporting ULTRIX/SQL on Ultrix 4.3.  Thus, even
if we test MSu V1.2 on Ultrix 4.3 and find it works in a acceptable manner,
we still may be unable to claim Ultrix 4.3 as a supported platform for MSU V1.2
since such a configuration has no official Ultrix/SQL support. 



Ingres VAR Actions
------------------

Over the last few weeks, Wayne Mackey and I have been looking into setting up 
a Value Added Reseller (VAR) agreement with Ingres Corporation that would allow
us to resell Ingres Release 6.4 and  beyond with MSU. Besides us, there are
several other Digital product groups also interested in VAR arrangements with
Ingres.  They include: DECathena (Renu Harvey), DEC Retail (Larry Singband),
Bay Star (Nancy Gustavesen) and, from what you tell me, RCMP too.  

Wayne and I have had several meetings on this VAR subject  with our Ingres
Account Rep, Bruce Daley.  We appear to be "close to" having a verbal proposal 
from Ingres that meet our market requirements for MSU. Ingres have verbally 
propose for MSU and the rest of the Polycenter family of network management 
products namely ( DECathena and DECmcc Director) a deal that effectively allows
us to resell the following sw and documantation over a three year period:

  - INGRES Embedded RDBMS 6.4
  - Knowledge Management
  - INGRES/Net
  - Protocol Support (1 protocol)
  - INGRES/Windows4GL Runtime
                              
This VAR deal would allow us to resell the combined product set above for a fix 
royalty price of $2500 per copy, independent of host platform, applicable
to any of the following operating systems below which Ingres support :

    
   - Ultrix
   - OSF
   - SCO
   - Windows/NT      
   - HP/UX
   - IBM/AIX
   - SUN SOLARIS

From what I can tell from Ingres's platform base price structure, the above 
typically lists for approximately $7000 on a platform such as a DECstation
5000 Model 25.

With this VAR agreement, Ingres also wants us to pay upfront $500,000 for 
our first 200 copies of the above.  We have explained to them that this
is totally unacceptable to us.  A VAR deal on their existing products requires
no additional risk or development investment on their part.  Thus, we find this
up front payment plan to be unreasonable. They came back willing to reduce the
upfront payment amount but are so far not willing to eliminate it completely.

With this VAR agreement, Ingres also wants us to pay them cummulative royalties
fees (as much as 15%) for "support".  This too is unreasonable from our view. 
The only support they are proposing to us is backend support to our engineering
group.  We are responsible for handling all front-end support to customers. In 
over three years, we have never once entered as Ingres support call.  Thus, this
cummulative royalty charge for support is also unreasonable from our 
perspective. We have told Ingres we can understand them charging us for a 
seperate "update royalty"  where  appropriate.  Thus, when we come out with a
new MSU release that contains an updated version of Ingres,  we can pass on the 
updated MSU product at one combined update price to existing MSU customers that
purchase update service  from us. 

We are at a point in our discussions with Ingres where  its time to bring
in a purchasing person to participate with the negotiations.  I am meeting 
with Vince Santarlasci, purchasing manager for 3rd party Software, tomorrow
(Aug 18) at 9:00 here at OGO.  The purpose of this meeting with Vince is to 
try and bring in him or designate to participate in our negotiation with 
Ingres on a MSU VAR proposal.  

You and anyone else copied on this message are welcome to join my meeting 
tomorrow with Vince. Just let me know you are interested in attending.    
         
    

//Jerry