Conference waylay::singles_chat

    I think I have a copy. If you need I could inter-office it down to you.
    
    Jim

> I never got through the whole book, it really depressed me - maybe
    
    I make a conscious effort to avoid self-help books in general because
    they have exactly this effect on me, after about 5 pages.  That's about
    how far I got through one and only one post-divorce parenting book 
    before I tossed it in the trash.  So I guess I prefer to just wing it 
    through life, and learn the hard way sometimes.  If Gray says this is
    exactly one of the areas where men are screwed up, he's a genius for 
    realizing that this is one potential market he can't reach.
    
    But enough with that unsolicited non-testimonial, back to the topic-- 
    sorry Joyce, I don't have a copy you can borrow... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    	Thanks James.  Glenn, actually its not just to borrow a copy - its
    for feedback.  I've talked to a couple men who said the book was
    helpful.
    
    	Some of what he says makes sense to me, although I didn't like
    Men, Women and Relationships - I figured I'd be open minded and check
    out Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus...
    
    joyce

    OK... I guess I will have to push through the book to comment on it,
    but as for differences between men and women? 
    
    <Wordy opinion mode enabled: if you don't want to read what has mroe or
    less been said before in a hundred different ways, skip this note>
    
    You know... I honestly think it depends. I have tried to consider why 
    I have turned out the
    way I have, for better or ill. My mother was the dominant force in my
    life, I guess I am most like her in my dealings with people. Brutally
    honest, action rather than reaction, fierce loyalty. The wishy washy
    side of me came from my dad who taught me to reason first before acting
    where possible. He was an exceptionally caring man <example: He'd go to
    old age homes with a friend of his, sing and play the guitar on a
    regular basis for the homes in the town>.  They were both very
    emotional people indeed and I am very much that way as well.
    
    The other trait that developed, I have no idea why though, is the need
    to be myself. When my friends did things just because everyone else did
    I would not. So I never smoked, drank, or did mindless lemming-like
    things. (My mom taught me the word lemming and went into great detail
    what they were) I did things because I wanted to or was curious. 
    
    According to the dictates of the stereotypical male, the show of
    weakness and emotion is unacceptable. The 'real man' of the age will
    need to be prompted by a woman when her needs are not being met. The
    'real man' needs his freedom but women in his eyes are little more than
    chattel (word it anyway you like, it's what it boils down to). The
    'real man' needs to be in control, of himself, of his environment, of
    his future. It goes on and on...
    
    A man will say and do all the right things when he pursues a woman.
    He'll shower twice a day, keep clean shaven, brush his teeth more
    often... and the like. He is a model of wit and charm right up till the
    day he's married. Then a wondrous change occurs. His butt hangs out in
    the morning, his speech patterns change, he reverts to his
    single-hangin-with-his-buds days. And then wonders why his wife over
    time is a little less than enthusiastic about it.
    
    Women. Pass the beer nuts (just kidding). From what I have seen and
    heard, a woman is very much the same way in many respects. Her makeup
    (God, I hate makeup) is always perfect, she is always on the ball. And
    she is very agreeable with a guy even though she may not sincerely
    believe something. For instance, a good (and recent via a friend)
    example. The guy wants to wait until that downpayment is in the bank
    and they are in a house of their own to have kids. She agrees but the
    day after the wedding starts prodding him about it although she agreed
    to give it a couple years to have that house. (They have the house and
    a few munchkins now.. it actually worked out)
    
    The problem is perceptions and expectations. Even in the early stages
    of a relationship there is a subtle manipulation of the other. Goals
    and agendas thought to be the same often have very different
    interpretations.
    
    For me, if I really get interested in a woman who is interested in me,
    I show her me. Emotionaly, mushy, clutsy, often dopey, knuckle-dragging
    me. What she sees now is what she gets when the ring goes on the other
    hand. In return, I want to see the woman she really is. Good and bad. 
    
    Be an equal. Maybe I am too much my mother. But I don't feel the need
    to be in control. The need to be in control is little more than a
    crutch for people who can't deal with the uncertainty of their life and
    their future. I rather relish the curves life throws at me.
    
    Anyways, I am getting married May 17.
    
    so here is my list of ten things I have heard from my wife to be that
    is new to me:
    
    1. I don't agree, and here's why.
    
    2. Hrm... you're right.. we'll do it your way. (and actually believe it
    
    3. You compromised on this... I can compromise on that
    
    4. You really are a cretin, but I love you
    
    5. We'll just have to agree to disagree
       (the above happened twice.. we did the first thing her way
        and the second thing my way :-)   )
    
    6. This is what I like.....
    
    7. This is what you do/say that I hate!
    
    8. This is what you do/say that I love .... :-)
    
    9. You make me happy... just cuz.
    
    10.C'mere and tell me you love me again....
    
    The point of all this rambling (tangent boy - thats me) is that I think
    men and women are really no different. How we communicate in light of
    our insecurities and basic personality with each other is what makes us
    different. And we are as much a product of our past and the sterotypes
    of our parents/peers as we are life experiences.
    
    I could go on and on and on... but then I'd be writing another useless
    book.
    
    James
                                                                     

	One point of the book that was "awakening" to me was that fact
	that I learned that when a woman comes to me with a problem,
	I want to fix it instead of just listening to her vent. It's
	really difficult for me because I'm a fixer type. 

	I actually didn't read the book. A friend has the CD-ROM and
	him and I and a woman friend sat down and went thru it
	for about an hour or so. There was alot of "You mean you
	really think that?"'s.

	It's all generalizations but I do think that some of it
	has some basis of truth.

								mike

    
    	James - Barb's going to loan me hers - no need for interoffice
    mail.
    
    thanks anyway
    
    joyce

        A very good friend of mine got it and did the following. Anything
    she felt applied to her she highlighted in blue. She then had her
    fiance read it asking him to take note of what she's highlighted in
    blue. She asked him to highlight things he felt related to him in
    yellow. When he was finished she again reread the book taking time to
    concentrate on the items her fiance had highlighted. For them their
    level of understanding of how each of them reacted to certain
    situations was greatly enhanced. 
    
    bob

    Hrm.... now that's an idea.
    
    I place little valuein these books, but if there is value then I cann
    see it in the way you just presented it. Besides, this old dog still
    needs to learn a lot of new tricks if he's going to make someone happy
    'forever'. 
    
    Where are those highlighters? :-)
    
    James

And then there is the "meta" level ......

My 2 cents is that like many others, that book is a (good) source of information
for learning about oneself and others. There are LOTS of sources for
this type of information. To me the important thing is that a person
or persons are interested in learning !!! To me it's not half as important
that this particular book or some other is read by two people (as mentioned
in a previous reply) but more that they both WANTED to grow and find ways
to better communicate/deal with each other. I would guess that if any
person were to read that book and think that suddenly that they would
"understand" everything and that would be the end-all then they would be in
for a severe letdown. On the other hand if people understand that
relationships are not static and that people, ANY people - even two males or
two females, probably have some significant differences, they might also
understand that such differences can be assets and not liabilities.
I grew up on a farm and I have come to realize how very different a view
that gives me about lots of things than say someone that grew up in New
York City. (for levity - insert favorite farm joke here :-)
Maybe there should be a book that says "Farm folks are from Venus and
City folks are from Mars" ??? There seem to be lots of ways (different
cultures/religions/background/etc.) that people can develop MAJOR
totally different views of the world. Men vs. Women is an interesting
one but I think not the only one.

Summary: To me, it's the desire to learn/grow/make_the_effort that is
more significant than explaining any given set of differences.

    
    I've heard of the couples hightlighting
    method too.  Except instead of both 
    using the same book, each had his/her
    own, read and highlighted, then
    exchanged.
    
    I prefer this two-book method.
    
    Dolores

>Maybe there should be a book that says "Farm folks are from Venus and
>City folks are from Mars" ??? There seem to be lots of ways (different
>cultures/religions/background/etc.) that people can develop MAJOR
>totally different views of the world. Men vs. Women is an interesting
>one but I think not the only one.

I agree!  The feeling I got from what I read of the book is that men are
this way so learn to live with it.  While that may be somewhat true, I
know of many men that have changed and taken on some more typical female
traits or even men that have grown up with the more typical female traits.
The old nature vs nuture question comes to mind.  Yes, men and women are
physiologically different but I think a good portion of how they develop
depends on their upbringing.  (an aside, the cover story in the latest
Time about how our brains develop and grow before birth and in the first
years of life is really interesting!)

Barb

    
    	I may well read 3 pages and say this is bull - then again I may
    learn something...
    
    joyce

    The "women want to vent - men want to fix their problem" seem all to
    true to me IMNSHO. 
    
    He also said something (on a daily calendar) ...'that men need to
    love'... This really hit me especially because jsut the week before I
    was talking with someone about feelings and emotions and said that _IF_
    I could only be loved or love someone else, I would definately take
    loving someone else. I think me turn to 'things' to love when they
    cannot love someone.
    
    Steve

    I read most of it, and my then-boyfriend read a few pieces of it.  I
    also bought the cassettes on "relationships" or something like that.  I
    found it fascinating, and helpful to understand WHY he acted the way he
    did (the whole "cave" theory fit perfectly for him, and the "wave" is
    perfectly me).  
    
    After we were done with our little "self help/relationship help"
    episode, we came back together to "talk" about it.  I had a much
    greater understanding of what he was going through, and had anticipated
    that he would have a better understanding of me.
    
    Wrong.
    
    A complete, and completely unanticipated backfire took place - What he
    came out of it with was "Well, this is the way I'm SUPPOSED to act, and
    the book even says so!  I'm supposed to get pissed and shut you out and
    now that you read the book, you should know that!" .... and he
    completely missed the part of understanding oneself, and trying to
    lessen the pain for (or understand the perception of/impact on) the other 
    person ("I'll be back"-type statements were unheard of)
    
    What we ended up with was him being more stubborn and beligerent and
    "caveman-like" because the book said that that's how most men are.
    
    Of course the show he admires most on TV is "Men Behaving Badly" ...
    and he longs to be "able" to be like them.  He IS them!  (-:
    
    So .... I guess what I'm saying, is if you share it, be sure that you
    both have the same expectations (maybe to get to understand each other
    better ?)
    

>    Of course the show he admires most on TV is "Men Behaving Badly" ...
>    and he longs to be "able" to be like them.  He IS them!  (-:
    
    That's a pretty sad commentary (if I'm not overstepping my bounds here
    in saying so).
    
    glenn
    

    
    Not overstepping ... I was pretty mortified to find this out ... though
    certainly not surprised (-:
    
    Unfortunately, I'm not as graceful as "Mallory" when he acts like that.
    
    (-:
    

    
    I was thrilled to hear that there was an entry for mars/venus.
    
    I must tell you that about 10yrs ago "Men are from Mars and Women are
    from Venus' was recommended to me and I did not read it.
    
    It will be two years ago in May that I left mr "x" and about 6 months
    before I started reading that book- it immediatley helped me to
    understand the males I work with and the females also. It also helped
    me to understand what went wrong and why I acted the way I did and why
    he acted the way he did.
    
    There are several more books that complement  Mars/Venus- I like to
    call it book 1. While I was reading book 1 I was also reading Mars and
    Venus in the Bedroom- now before you think this is an eroctic book-
    it's not- I gathered more understanding of the males species.
    
    There's another book that can be read after book1 that really gets into
    rolls and expectations and life nowadays stuff- "What your mother
    couldn't tell you and what your father didn't know" - deep book.
    
    
    About 2+ yrs ago Dr Gray came to Cambridge for a seminar and I missed
    it. I have turned on as many people as I can to these books and have
    had people come back to me saying- thank-you ever so much!!
    
    
    Perhaps sometime we can get a group together and talk about these books
    over coffee or something... 
    
    
    carol
    
    (ps I like being from venus- hot stuff-  ssssssssssssss)
    
    :')