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Conference vaxcat::ef97

Title:	EF97:A place for the mass debater
Notice:	We're DOOMED! We're all DOOMED"our tea?
Moderator:	VAXCAT::LAURIEN

Created:	Thu Dec 05 1996
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	45
Total number of notes:	3786

40.0. "State of Disunion" by RIOT01::SUMMERFIELD (Sic Transit Gloria Mundi) Tue Apr 15 1997 16:21

    I wasn't really very sure where to put this one, and thus arrogantly
    decided to create a new topic. Heck, I'm a moderator so tough anyway
    :^)
    
    I've just finished a marathon session ploughing through Kennedy's The
    Rise and Fall of the Great Powers and Kagan's On the Origins of War.
    Although these two tomes can be hard work at times, reading them back
    to back has left me with a very uncertain feeling. I would recommend
    them to anyone who has vague doubts about European Union, and
    especially the prevarication of the major parties on this issue. 
    
    If you look at the state of Europe today, and compare it with the
    various attitudes extant prior to the last two World Wars, continuing
    with European Union appears to lead to unavoidable disaster. There are
    a number of parallels between Europe today and conditions which
    triggered the Balkan Crises prior to the First World War. If you then
    throw in German determination to play the major role in Europe with
    British prevarication (not a modern phenomonan at all, Lord Grey did it
    prior to WWI and Chamberlain prior to WWII. Even Pericles screwed up in
    the same way prior to the Peloponnesian War.) then I can see history
    repeating itself once more.
    
    Now I'm depressed, has anyone got anything to say on this which might
    cheer me up, or at least let me feel depressed in company?
    
    Balders

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
40.1		45862::DODD		`Tue Apr 15 1997 16:52`	8
	If we get a Labour government, life will be so dire that we will not need to worr about trivia like that. On a slightly more serious note can anone offer any insight as to how the SNP, and to a lesser extent Plaid Cymru, square wanting to split from England only to leap in to full union with Europe? Andrew
40.2		RIOT01::SUMMERFIELD	Sic Transit Gloria Mundi	`Tue Apr 15 1997 17:17`	6
	You're looking for logic in the policies of nationalistic politicians? Amazing! Seriously though, my understanding is that they belive that they'll fare better as federal states in their own right than they will as part of the Federal State of Britain. Imho of course. Balders
40.3		45080::CWINPENNY		`Tue Apr 15 1997 17:34`	19
	I think your anology with Bosnia is not quite accurate. When people are forced to live side by side when they don't necessarily want to as in the former USSR and indeed the British Empire then there will be deep seated resentment of old enemies and possibly the odd conflict. This would not be the case with a federal Europe in which old wounds have fully healed and have been lost to the history books. We would be going in willingly and whilst we might dislike the French once they've learnt to speak English then they might not be so bad. And whilst there might be pockets of resistance caused by insignificant factions or anal retentive attention seekers, as in Northern Ireland, I for one don't think it would come to a full blown war. However given that the decision to enter should have majority support then a referendum should definitely be held, not only in Britain but in every country wishing to be part of a federal Europe because without the support of the people then I would agree that it is doomed to fail. Chris
40.4	Never mind the Germans !	CURRNT::WARBURTON		`Tue Apr 15 1997 17:39`	12
	What does it matter anyway ? According to the latest translations of that Nostradamus chap, muslims are going to rape and pillage their way across Europe early next century and set up their headquarters in London, and rule Europe ! Hope that cheers you up Balders ! Julie.
40.5		SUPER::DENISE	unholy water.... sanguine addiction...2 silver bullets	`Tue Apr 15 1997 17:52`	8
	you realize, julie, that if that does indeed happen... we'll be forced to cover ourselves head to toe... be driven around or led around in public by our `menfolk', worse still... have to obey them. <shudder> move over balders, now i'm depressed.
40.6		45080::CWINPENNY		`Tue Apr 15 1997 18:52`	6
	Denise, That's just wishful thinking on your part. Chris
40.7	ex\	SUPER::DENISE	unholy water.... sanguine addiction...2 silver bullets	`Tue Apr 15 1997 19:10`	2
	you're hallucinating again, mr ::CWINPENNY.
40.8		MOVIES::POTTER	http://www.vmse.edo.dec.com/~potter/	`Wed Apr 16 1997 10:59`	32
	In fact, the SNP's policy is pretty self-consistent...which does not mean that I agree with it. Their basic line is that "England screws Scotland". Scotland is a rich country with wonderful people and lots of natural wealth, England has nasty people, and fewer resources. So, if we weren't subsidising you English folk, we (the Scots) would be much better off. However, a completely independent Scotland would have no voice in the world. So Scotland would have to become part of a larger community of nations, become as enthusiastic a part of the EU as Germany and France are. The desire is not nationalism for its own sake, merely a desire to avoid being ruled from and exploited by England. As a position it has at least significantly more integrity than Labour's half-thought-out position on devolution. Scotland would be a single country in the EU with as any votes as its population and resources merited. Nice and easy to understand. Devolution, on the other hand, leaves Scots with votes in local English matters but the English with no vote in Scottish matters. Would the assembly be a glorified and highly expensive partish council? Mr Blair has no consistent answer. The LibDems have a coherent position - a fully federal UK within a federal Europe. May or may not be to your taste, but comprehensible and coherent. The Tories too have a coherent position - the status quo. Only Labour are really, sweriously, dreadfully screwed up on this issue! regards, //alan
40.9		VAXCAT::LAURIE	Desktop Consultant, Project Enterprise	`Wed Apr 16 1997 13:18`	14
	RE: <<< Note 40.8 by MOVIES::POTTER "http://www.vmse.edo.dec.com/~potter/" >>> >> as enthusiastic a part of the EU as Germany and France are. The desire is not An interesting statement, Alan. In fact, I think you'll find that the countries most enthusiastic about the EU are a) those not yet in it who want to be so they can have lots of lovely free money, and b) countries like Belgium, Greece and Ireland who'd struggle to survive without it. France and Germany, like Britain, could easily stand on their own two feet, and don't "need" the EU. However, France and Germany show public commitment because continued membership furthers their own not-so-hidden agendae. Britain, at least, is honest about its aspirations. Cheers, Laurie.
40.10		IJSAPL::ANDERSON	Now noting in colour!"	`Wed Apr 16 1997 13:49`	25
	I was interested to note one little point when Denmark had the first referendum and decided not to join the EU, that Leggo, a Danish company, who was just planning a large new plant in Denmark, put it on hold. The reason was, if the plant was outside the EU all its exports to the EU would have been subject to tariffs. While if it was inside the EU the goods could move freely. As they wished the plant to be within the EU there was no point building it in Denmark if Denmark didn't join. Now in the UK we have lots of nice foreign investment in manufacturing plant. If the UK leaves the EU you can bet your bottom dollar that these plants will be run down and the jobs exported to other countries within the EU. Even Switzerland is getting its knickers in a twist. Them wot is in charge can see the advantage of joining, but they need a referendum before they may join, and they can't get one. Meanwhile their unemployment figures, once negligible, are now growing at an alarming rate. All food for thought. Jamie.