Conference vaxcat::ef97

    Brain,
    
    If you want to get the kid interested in training earlier, bag the
    pampers and go back to cloth nappies.  The damn disposables are so
    absorbent and the stay-dry lining is so effective that the kids never
    get a wet enough butt to get uncomfortable, and make the connection
    that peeing in something other than a diaper is a good idea.  
    
    don't you all have diaper services on your side of the pond?
    
    meg

    I remember when my neighbours were getting their new baby. For him, it
    was new, she already had two kids in her previous marriage, so she knew
    what to expect.
    
    He wanted to be cheap, and insisted disposale diapers were too
    expensive, and they could do with cotton ones. She agreed, after he
    promised he would take care of the cleaning bit. The baby was born on a
    Saturday eve.
    
    Now guess who I spotted the next monday coming back from the store with
    a huge pack of disposable diapers?
    
    Ad

    
    Both my daughters managed to stay dry throughout the day from
    about two years and a month or two. Lottie is now three and
    still can't reliably stay dry at night, whereas Tilly was able
    to have dry nights from about her third birthday.
    
    All kids are different, but I intend to try taking the boys out
    of nappies at around two years old. Most accidents are easy to
    clean up. Does a soul good to do some unpleasant stuff now and
    again. ;^)
    
    Andy./

    I can't remember too much about the older two, but my youngest *asked*
    to be taken out of nappies a little after her second birthday. As for
    keeping them dry at night, we found that getting them up at about 11pm
    and sticking them on the bog worked, and they don't really wake up.
    
    Cheers, Laurie$out_of_practice.

    Thanks Brian, I was sorta trying to not worry about this yet...
    
    The sprog came ready trained and I'm sorta hoping the new one will
    follow his lead	;-)
    
    gerbil$free_no_more

    I've just been through the potty training - life's so much better now!!
    
    Emilie is 2.5 years and I tried from her 2nd birthday putting her on
    the potty.  However, it needed to be her decision and simultaneous
    before it really worked.  She was actually dry at night before the day. 
    Now she's completely trained (apart from the odd accident).  
    
    I was using pull-ups which, although convenient, weren't really a good
    idea as someone already said they were too comfortable and made her
    lazy.
    
    Best thing to do is put on pants and let them wet themselves a few
    times (they don't like it!!) and will soon be running for the potty.
    
    Kerry

    Let him be a semi-literate lout.. it's much more fun and turns you into
    a well balanced, less pompous person...-:)
    
    Andrea

    You've lost me on that one, Andrea. How does letting young Jonathan
    turn into a semi-literate lout make me into a well balanced, less
    pompous person?
    
    Anyway, if that's really what you meant then I *definitely* want him
    potty trained sharpish.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian

    NO..  I meant him.  He'll probably be much more relaxed  and into lager
    and Oasis type bands rather than opera...
    
    Andrea

    Ahhhh! Now I understand. You mean "It turns ONE into a well balanced,
    less pompous person".
    
    I'm afraid it's already too late. He likes neither Oasis nor Opera.
    Sadly, it's John Denver that puts him to sleep the best.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian

    Probably more than ONE if enough people try..  John Denver eh??  Not as
    bad as itcould be though I would try and aim for a Carpenters influence
    in order to be fully developed in easy listening..
    
    Andrea

    NO..  I meant him.  He'll probably be much more relaxed  and into lager
    and Oasis type bands rather than opera...
    
Hmm...is this really a good thing?  

o Lager tends to lead to a big, ugly beer belly.

o Someone saying that he can write off three or four hundred years worth of
  musical development as being something he doesn't like tends to suggest that
  he hasn't thought about it - unless he can explain why he dislikes it.
  (This doesn't just apply to opera - anyone who can dismiss hundreds of years
  of human effort on _anything_ without a suitable justification tends to look
  kind-of silly).

regards,
//alan

    Ohh Alan..  I haven't written off three or four hundred years of music. 
    I like some classical music but I feel no affinity whatsoever for opera,
    it bores me silly actually.  I fail to see the beauty in it, I feel
    nothing when I hear it and would never ever go and watch one.  The same
    way that some people would never go to a pop concert.  Musical
    appreciation is a very personal one and usually derives from the music
    one hears when one is growing up.  I watched my first musical when I
    was four, I have been listening to and watching operettas and rock
    operas ever since.    I have also been a musician since around the same
    age, starting on the recorder and ending playing trumpet
    in a semi professional band.  I was also very inetrested in pop music.
    
    
    I was joking, tongue in cheek about lager and opera, I don't actually
    give a toss.  I do feel, however, that a sense of humour/irony/sarcasm
    is lacking here.  BORED NOW, see ya.  Don't make a comment about young
    ef'ers if you can't take a reply...
    
    Andrea  
    
                                            

    Andrea, opera was the pop music of its time. IMNSHO there is very
    little modern music which can match Puccini's La Boheme. Before you
    dismiss opera out of hand I'd recommend you listen to La Boheme.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian

    I gather, then you all don't have diaper services over there?  We used
    cotton diapers, and had a service.  Put the soiled diaper bag out on
    the porch once/week when leaving for work, and come home to several
    dozen clean, white, fresh smelling cloth diapers for a fee that is
    slightly less than disposables.  We called them the diaper elves, and
    since proper disposal of a pamper (tm) is almost never done, we at
    least weren't adding human crap to the solid waste stream.  
    
    meg

    Brian,
    
    I have listened to, studied, watched and been utterly bored and unmoved
    by La Boheme and a host of many other operas.  I also  passed my music
    o'level at the age of 14 BTW. My dislike of opera is not based on ignorance
    but of dislike.  Nothing too difficult for people to get to grips with
    there then...??  
    
    As you said, it was the pop music of it's day and like all things
    music has evolved, and whilst I do not criticise your choice of music
    (apart from in jest but then again I'm not sure of a sense of humour is
    evident), I am perfectly happy with my choice of contemporary music.  I
    feel there is more inspiriation and musical quality in three minutes of
    truly great pop song, than I could get in four hours at the opera.  
    There you see, I feel, my opinion...  To describe opera and ask me to
    listen to it, therefore I might like it is a tad patronising don't you
    think??  
    
    Andrea
                        

RE:<<< Note 35.16 by CHEFS::CONNELLA "Nothing's changed but nothing seems the same#" >>>
                                    -< XXX >-
>>    As you said, it was the pop music of it's day and like all things
    
    ODE.
    
    Helpfully, Laurie.
    
    PS. I dislike opera too.

    Meg, I'm afraid here in Europe green measures are usually just a token
    sham to appease the publicity seekers like Greenpeace. Hence when I was
    in Germany I used to be very careful about putting my clear bottles in
    the clear bottle bank, green in green, the rest in brown etc. until one
    day I saw the truck come to pick them up. It emptied all the glass into
    the back and drove off.
    
    The richer European countries are generally green in the sense that
    they collect the rubbish in relatively green ways but then they ship if
    off to poorer countries to be disposed of in non-green ways.
    
    There is also not the flexibility in wages to have something as low
    wage as a nappy service except possibly in the UK and some of the poor
    southern countries. However in countries like Spain, Portugal and Italy
    where wages might be low enough for this the national attitudes are
    very chauvinistic. Washing nappies is woman's work and God forbid it
    should be farmed out.
    
    Jonathan is still only 9 months so it sounds like we can forget about
    potty training for another year.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian                            

  A thing that really bugs me is the money that is poured into opera by
  the government as well as the private sector to ensure that it carries
  on. Without subsidies opera would have disappeared or have been forced
  to adapt to the tastes of the present world. 

  Why should opera in general and dinosaurs like the Royal Opera House
  be funded when much more popular music is ignored and left to rot? A
  relic of the British class system that should be dropped IMO. I
  certainly agree with taxes being used to fund musical projects but the
  balance is not right.

  Why not fund a network of studios across the country where anyone can
  book time for a nominal fee to record and develop their music with
  professional equipment and engineers, or maybe sponsor venues across
  the UK to put on music of all tastes can be put on. The music industry
  in all its forms is a major contributor to Britains prosperity and
  culture but the Government only seems to be interested in the "snob"
  end of the spectrum.

  Rgds, Steve.


Okay, I probably was in a bit of a humourless mood yesterday, I'd spent far
too many hours living inside Borg Word.

Anyway, if someone says "I don't like X" my tendency is to believe that that
person has never tried X - particularly when X is something that requires some
effoert or intellignce to appreciate (note that I am not saying that dislking
X means that the person has no inteligence).

If someone says "I've tried X a few times and never enjoyed it", that's just
fine by me.

Some pop songs are indeed excellent - neither the past nor the present has a
monopoly on quality or originality.  Most pop songs are utter dross, in the
same way as most music written a hundred or two hundred years ago was utter
dross too.  Neither the past nor the present has a monopoly on dross.
However, the benefit of listening to the music written a century ago is that
time has filtered out the dross and most of what people choose to perform now
is the decent stuff.

For me, the only way to enjoy opera is by going out to the opera.  Opera is
the most extravegant and wasteful form of entertainment the stage has to
offer, it simply does not convert well to television.

re .19

  A thing that really bugs me is the money that is poured into opera by
  the government as well as the private sector to ensure that it carries
  on. Without subsidies opera would have disappeared or have been forced
  to adapt to the tastes of the present world. 

Well, the private sector is free to spend its money how it wants, but I agree
that I cannot justify subsidy for opera.  Unless, of course, other forms of
entertainment are subsidised by public funding too (such as films).  

  Why should opera in general and dinosaurs like the Royal Opera House
  be funded when much more popular music is ignored and left to rot? A
  relic of the British class system that should be dropped IMO. I
  certainly agree with taxes being used to fund musical projects but the
  balance is not right.

I really don't believe that opera has anything to do with social class.  Maybe
going out to the opera is, but opera itself is not.

Part of the reason why opera is at risk is because it requires the audience to
think, to concentrate and to have a decent attention span.  Pop music, films
and television all seem to start with the assumption that "nobody went bust
underestimating the public's intelligence".  In other words, a pop song
shouldn't go on for more than about three mintues, a single camera angle in a
film shouldn;t last more than about ten seconds, otherwise the audience's
attention starts to wane.

Maybe that's one reason that it's nice to see the Royal Opera House still
standing - it's a symbol that someone, somewhere wants to fight against what
the Americans call the "dumbing" of society - the continual pandering to the
average level of intelligence.

Losing opera from the world would also be rather sad in that it would be the
end of a tradition of singing that has gone back many centuries.  People
learned to sing for opera - sing in such a way that they could be heard in the
back row of a hughe opera house.  Now, with the proliferation of radio mikes,
that is a skill that is very undervalued.  It's sad to see that as scientific
progress advances, it's taken as an excuse for people to use their own
abilities less and less.

  the Government only seems to be interested in the "snob"
  end of the spectrum.

Once again, opera and ballet have nothing to do with social class.

regards,
//alan

>>  the Government only seems to be interested in the "snob"
>>  end of the spectrum.

>Once again, opera and ballet have nothing to do with social class.

Not quite sure I agree with you here, or maybe I didn't explain myself well
enough. Going to the opera is an expensive pastime which generally speaking is
patronised more by the well to do than the working class. It is not exclusively
for the well to do I agree, but rightly or wrongly it is the way things are.
The Yahoos of your local Young Conservative Club are much more likely to
organise a coach to the opera than to a rock concert for instance. Would you
agree?

I would also suggest that a sizeable portion of the audience are there as it is
the thing to be seen to do rather than though any love of opera. A chance to
put on the penguin suit and ball gown and look down your nose at people.

The snob element is there.

Rgds, Steve.

    Gill and I are going to see Madame Butterfly in York this Saturday,
    Romanian State opera tickets �10 to �20. I don't see that as snobbish.
    
    Sure, to go to Glyndebourne or a big London opera can be expensive.
    What does it cost to have a box at Silverstone for the F1 GP? or
    Twickenham?
    
    Sure, people like to dress up - nothing wrong in that.
    
    A lot of the money for the Royal Opera House is to preserve and update
    the fabric of the building. Do you believe that we should just let the
    great historical buildings crumble away?
    
    Andrew

    Not only is the snob element there but I have spoken to opera buffs
    who will not go to a performance unless so and so is singing (patrons
    of the Royal Opera House are the worst ciminals for this sort of
    behaviour) very often I get the impression it is to say "I saw so and
    so singing.. " rather than going for a genuine love of the music.
    
    THe only opera company I admire slightly is the ENO, only due to the
    fact they are trying to make opera more appealing and open to the
    general public.  They were recently slated in some press for putting on
    a production of Carmen in the Royal Albert Hall and making a spectacle
     out of an opera rather than a deep and meaningful performance. 
    Complete Tosh if you ask me..  
    
    You can get cheap seats, not very good ones mind.. but I would still
    say a large majority of people who attend the opera are the better
    off/upper/middle class.  Part of this could be the price, a second part
    could be the elitism surrounded by opera, the fact that very few
    performances are in English, that it is not an easy medium to listen
    to and immediately enjoy, it is not very trendy and *most* kids would
    rather go to a gig than a night at Covent garden.
    
    It won't die out, I was playing 12,13th century music when I was at
    school in an ensemble and quite enjoyed it really.  I just don't
    believe it will become open to the masses cause at the end of the day
    it's just not as great as opera buffs think it is.. in my opinion..
    
    
    Andrea

    I doubt if you could get me into an opera at the point of a gun. Mind
    you the same goes for a rock concert, a musical, or even an orchestral
    concert. I just hate all forms of music equally and if I never heard
    another note as long as I live it would be fine with me.

    As to pampers, huggies and all the rest. I thought that they only
    absorbed bright blue water.

    Jamie.

  Re. 23  Andrea, I agree 100%.

  Rgds, Steve.

  PS. Oh! yes the note was supposed to be on potty training. My
  daughters gave up nappies during the day just over 2 years old, and
  during the night at just over 3. We made a big thing with each of them
  of buying their last ever bag of nappies and they counted themselves
  down to the big night when they run out. Baring one or two accidents
  this worked well.


>Going to the opera is an expensive pastime which generally speaking is
>patronised more by the well to do than the working class. It is not exclusively
>for the well to do I agree, but rightly or wrongly it is the way things are.

Well, I've never paid more than about �15 per seat for opera, and have never
had difficulty finding good seats at pro performances for that price.  That's
in both Glasgow and Edinburgh.  Sure, you can pay more if you want, even more
so in London and other such places...

Comparing that to modern musicals, eg Andrew Lloyd-Webber and the like, I would
normally expect to pay over �25 a seat for those.  For Riverdance in Edinburgh
I paid �31 (I wouldn;t have if I'd known in advance how much it was going to
cost!)

Or even football - my father-in-law has a Celtic season ticket - it works out
as around �13 a game, and I'm told that international matches are muc more
expensive.  

What about rock concerts?  How much does it cost to go to see a big name band
these days?

So no, I don't buy the line about cost.

>The Yahoos of your local Young Conservative Club are much more likely to
>organise a coach to the opera than to a rock concert for instance. Would you
>agree?

Again, no.  But maybe that'st just the particular Young Tories I've known 
(remember Loughbourough 1984?)

>I would also suggest that a sizeable portion of the audience are there as it is
>the thing to be seen to do rather than though any love of opera. A chance to
>put on the penguin suit and ball gown and look down your nose at people.

I've never seen anyone in Glasgow wearing penguin suit or ball gown to the
theatre.  A real shame - I do love dressing up (fnaaar).  Men most often wear
normal business suit uniform, ladies wear whatever they choose (tending to
anothr pet peeve of mine - why are men's clothes so boring?!)

>The snob element is there.

Yep, I agree that there is a snob element.  That comes from people who don't
have any interest in the music and think that they are "something" because
they go to opera.  

But your posts suggest that opera == snobbery, which I reject.

I feel that the only reason snobs who don't like opera go to the opera is
because the belief that you state exists.  Those of us who enjoy the spectacle
of live performance can burst that bubble by pointing out the things that I
have listed above!

regards,
//alan

>>The snob element is there.

>Yep, I agree that there is a snob element.  That comes from people who don't
>have any interest in the music and think that they are "something" because
>they go to opera.

>But your posts suggest that opera == snobbery, which I reject.

Alan,
      
Make up your mind Alan. Do you think I am saying there is a snob element
or am I saying that opera == snobbery. I can be saying both now can I?
Or does you dictionary define "element" differently than mine?

Rgds, Steve.

>Make up your mind Alan. Do you think I am saying there is a snob element
>or am I saying that opera == snobbery. I can be saying both now can I?
>Or does you dictionary define "element" differently than mine?

I read your original notes as saying that opera == snobbery.  

regards,
//alan

    On the subject of Opera I believe it truly is personal taste.  For me
    going to the Opera is to see the whole spectacle and not just for the
    music.  I do not like just listening to Opera music and do not own any
    CD's, tapes or records of Opera.
    
    The Opera House in Paris is truly a magnificent building and to go to
    see an Opera there is an event no matter what.  People still dress for
    the Opera in Paris and it's a good evening out.  The cost varies of
    course according the the Opera and the seats but on the whole it's
    comparable to attending a concert by a well known Pop Star in Bercy for
    example.
    
    There is snobbery attached to Opera depending on where you are in the
    World.  As an example of this I went to an Opera in Moscow and it was
    packed by ordinary working class people who were there only for
    enjoyment.  I think that the English are the worst snobs as far as
    Opera is concerned - why?  I don't know.....
    
    Kerry

    
    	easy enough, kerry, the english are snobs...
    	that's why they were born with that long nose
    	to look down upon with disgust.

re .30

There must be a ::ENGLANDNOTES somewhere...

//atp

    re
    >There must be a ::ENGLANDNOTES somewhere...
    
    I don't see why. We're one of the few nations with enough
    self-confidence not to need that kind of psychological crutch.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian

Well put Mr Towers.

Rgds, Steve.

    
    	what a brave face you put on, mr.::TOWERS...
    	when i know that behind that screen of yours
    	you are sobbing in your coffee.

    Sorry to digress but Andrew Dodd's note about the Romanian Opera (.22)
    woke me up.
    
    I wonder if it's the same bunch that I saw in Apeldoorn last year - I'm
    sure they were from Romania.
    
    It's a nice Opera in that you can hum the tunes afterwards and it's
    very dramatic. 
    
    The singing was really good but, if it is the same lot Andrew, I'd
    advise you to leave the opera glasses at home. 
    
    Madame Butterfly is at least 45 (is supposed to be very young) and
    Pinkerton, her lover, is very fat and at least 50.
    
    At the end, when Madame Butterfly is pissed off that Pinkerton has
    married someone else, she sings a very long song whilst clutching her
    child to her bosom. The kid that played her son in Apeldoorn had a
    terrible time and tried to cover his ears whilst she shrieked her heart
    out (she did it very poignantly - but it wasn't half loud). Anyway,
    instead of all this poignancy reducing the audience to tears, it had
    the opposite effect and rather ruined the mood. But it was very good
    fun.
    
    
    Anyway, Andrew, I'd be interested in how you like your visit to the
    opera - trip report on Monday? I hope you enjoy it.
    
    Joan
    
    PS Mods, sorry for the digression, couldn't resist it. Maybe this and
    similar notes should be in "favourite entertainments" topic?  
    
                                                      

    What the heck is a "digreeion"?
    
    Jamie.

    re -1. a slip of the finger when I was typing the title 

    re .34
    
    Are you clairvoyant, denise?
    
    It is, of course, decaffeinated coffee.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian
    PS re < stiff upper lip, chaps >, yes it does, doesn't it!

    Thanks Joan. We know that it will be not the same as ROH etc.
    
    We saw Moldavian opera last year and they were a bit iffy at times.
    
    But it's all good clean fun, and you don't get many plebs 'cos it's
    opera.
    
    Andrew

    The Moldavian Opera with stars from Romania State Opera was much as
    expected. Butterfly was middle aged and the weakest of the cast. There
    were times when it was hard to recognise the tunes one should.
    
    Pinkerton and Sharples as the Americans were quite believable and sang
    pretty well. Suzuki the maid would have made a better Butterfly, and
    perhaps on some nights she does. The child looked scared stiff, but was
    supposed to be only three.
    
    It is hard to judge these Eastern European companies, one gets so used
    to hearing the best singers on CD and Classic FM, I think it is time to
    go along to some ENO or Welsh opera productions.
    
    The evening was crowned when we returned to the riverside car park at
    10:30 to find the car, along with others in four inches of water, I had
    to go for a paddle and drive home with wet feet.The Ouse had risen a
    couple of feet in three hours. Such is life.
    
    Andrew

    I'm here
    
    Not in spirit mind you but at least in body
    
    last Friday S:TNG made it's self known to the world.
    
    Mother and baby doing well 		cont P94.
    Papa is a wreck!
    
    
    For those that like this sort of thing
    
    14:02 16th May 1997, 3.495 Kilo, 49cm 10 fingers 10 toes etc
    
    gerbil$daddy

    Congrats Gerbil...
    
    Cheers, Laurie.
    
    PS. ODE.

    Congratulations!!
    
    Now we're just waiting for the .gif (on your web page?) and for Ad to
    cast its horoscope.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian

    I'll try and get a GIF in tomorrow, but anyway it just looks like a
    small Winston Churchill and unlike most fathers I think it's an ugly
    bugger
    
    gerbil$against_the_norm

    
    Further congratulations.
    
 >  I think it's an ugly bugger.
    
    Confirmation, if ever it were needed, that it's definitely yours.
    
    Chris

    
      	best of luck, gerb...
        you realize it's all downhill from here on in.

    Enjoy the next three years gerb, and remember they to shall pass on to
    more and more entertaining times.
    
    ;-)

    News update.
    
    Sprog is unwell, he's in the ICU with problems, not currently life
    threating but serious enough.
    
    Basic details, his liver is not processing his blood correctly and he
    has an infection in his bladder/Kidneys.
    
    His mother is there 24/hours day and I'm knackered.
    They tell us he will be there for at least 2 weeks.
    
    Anyone want a nice polite 4 year old to look after?
    
    
    Kevin

Kev,

My thoughts are with him, and the rest of you.

    Bummer, Gerbs. All the best mate, I hope it all works out ok.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

Kevin,

Hope all goes well,

regards,
//alan

    
    I know how that feels, too. Good luck.
    
    Andy/.
    
    
    Tips from someone who's had an unfair share of nights alone with 
    the other kids while the wife is in hospital having an unfair share
    of nights with the currently-ill one....
    
    o Get a lot of sleep as you never know when you'll need to be awake 
      a lot. 
    
    o Make a few meals up and stick them in the freezer as you'll not 
      always want to bother.
    
    o Write up a list of folks who might be able to do some babysitting
      for you. Talk to them soon.
    
    o Write up a list of good stuff to do with the missus when you get
      out of this situation.
    
    o Believe the family will be OK and visualise it. That way you don't
      become bogged down and depressed and your posture and behaviour
      remains in line with the best policies.

    Thanks everyone.
    
    Update:
    
    Alan's liver seems to back on track after the treatment, he is still
    very yellow but we're assured this will correct itself in time.
    
    The other problem is much more serious, somehow (we'll know how in a
    couple of motnhs) Urine has gone back from the Bladder to his Kidneys
    infecting them badly, he's on two different drips of Antibiotics and
    also has thrice daily injections.
    They reckon it will be a minimum of 14 days until he *might* be fit
    enough to go home.
    
    The sprog in the meantime has been farmed out to his Aunt's in Sittard
    on the basis that she at least speaks his language and is not a
    stranger to him, his opinon is rather anti this idea but 'Papa' has
    spoken.
    Deep thanks to those of you who offered help, it's nice to know people
    out there care.
    
    Kevin

    Poor little bugger. Hope they get it sorted out soon.
    
    Good luck,
    Brian