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Conference vaxaxp::vmsnotes

Title:	VAX and Alpha VMS
Notice:	This is a new VMSnotes, please read note 2.1
Moderator:	VAXAXP::BERNARDO

Created:	Wed Jan 22 1997
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	703
Total number of notes:	3722

552.0. "Backup access to savesets on ISO CD-ROM" by ACISS2::MARES (you get what you settle for) Wed Apr 30 1997 14:33

    I am working with an OEM customer of ours who is in need of some
    help in building their CD-ROM distribution kits.  They need to
    distribute 4 CD-ROMs in their kit, one is VMS Files-11 bootable and the
    other three should ideally be ISO 9660 format (they contain files and
    docs that need to be cross-platform accessible).
    
    They have run into a bit of a roadblock on the VMS end of things.  As
    part of building their VMS CD-ROM, they have used the
    AXPVMSPCSIINSTALLMIN (?) procedure to build this CD-ROM.  The problem
    they have uncovered is that BACKUP used on top of the minimum VMS
    system cannot deal with BACKUP SAVESETS that are stored on the ISO
    format CD-ROMS.
    
    		Is this a known restriction for BACKUP?  Is this true
    		for VAX and Alpha?   (Primary interest here is for Alpha.)
    
    They have also found that they can work around this problem by copying
    all of the *ACP.EXE files from the VMS distribution to the minimum
    system and this enables BACKUP to access the SAVESETS on the ISO
    formatted CD-ROMs.
    
    		Is this due to the enabling of the ISO format recognition
    		by VMS (systemwide) or specificly for BACKUP?
    
    They are looking for advice as to how to best proceed with building
    their kit in a VMS-supported fashion (to allow compatibility with
    current/future versions) (they are currently shipping their product on
    top of VMS 6.2).  This OEM thought there was an option in the
    AXPVMSPCSIINSTALLMIN (?) procedure to provide CD-ROM ISO support, but
    have not gotten this to work.
    
    		Any thoughts on this?
    
    Have not had the opportunity to looks at the specifics yet myself --
    wanted to get this question out in the open for public comment/advice.
    
    
    Randy

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
552.1	Dual-Format Disks Possible...	XDELTA::HOFFMAN	Steve, OpenVMS Engineering	`Wed Apr 30 1997 15:14`	9
	OpenVMS has a habit of using dual-format CD-ROM disks -- the disks appear to be both ISO9660 and ODS-2 formats. In general, BACKUP has intimate knowledge of the file structure. Get the folks to build a bootable kit for themselves using a disk (and test it), and then copy it over to the CD-R drive.
552.2	What makes the dual directory structure?	ACISS2::MARES	you get what you settle for	`Wed Apr 30 1997 16:00`	13
	How does OpenVMS create the dual directory (Files-11 and ISO) structures for a CD-ROM master? As I understand the OEM's process, they create a working (magnetic) disk and then "send" it to their CD-ROM R(ecord) system to create a test CD-ROM. Is there a procedure in place to create the dual directory structure? Are you saying that BACKUP knows how to deal with the ISO file structure? If yes, what would account for the problems they are seeing when running off of a MINIMUM VMS system? Randy
552.3	One ODS-2 Disk, The Rest In ISO9660...	XDELTA::HOFFMAN	Steve, OpenVMS Engineering	`Wed Apr 30 1997 16:29`	26
	: How does OpenVMS create the dual directory (Files-11 and ISO) : structures for a CD-ROM master? As I understand the OEM's process, : they create a working (magnetic) disk and then "send" it to their : CD-ROM R(ecord) system to create a test CD-ROM. We've got some local tools that are used, I'm not sure how widely available these tools are. Though since there is likely no need to mount and use the OpenVMS bootable disk via ISO9960, I do not see a major reason to move to a dual-format disk structure. In any event, I would create the bootable disk in ODS-2 (or in a dual-format ODS-2/ISO9660 file structure), with the extra bits necessary to mount and access ISO9660 disks added. : Are you saying that BACKUP knows how to deal with the ISO file : structure? If yes, what would account for the problems they are seeing : when running off of a MINIMUM VMS system? BACKUP doesn't know how to deal with ISO9660 without extra help. (BACKUP's knowledge of the ODS-2 file structure becomes central when the target device is mounted /FOREIGN, which is when BACKUP /IMAGE creates the file structure.)
552.4		MILORD::BISHOP	The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him	`Thu May 01 1997 12:04`	13
	Isn't the problem here simply that the minimum VMS that gets copied to make the "standalone" system so minimum that it doesn't include the 9660 ACP etc? If so, then it would be reasonable to add them manually after building the disk, as you're doing now. Since the purpose of the minimal system is to make and restore system disk backups with the implied assumption that this will be done to Files-11 disks and Backup tapes, it's no surprise to me that these files aren't there by default. - Richard.
552.5	Does BACKUP support ISO 9660?	ACISS2::MARES	you get what you settle for	`Mon May 05 1997 13:08`	14
	Thanks for the info. One more basic question remains-- Will BACKUP support direct access to the ISO 9660 disk structure or is it dependent upon the Files-11 disk structure when accessing a CD-ROM for read operations??? Randy
552.6		MILORD::BISHOP	The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him	`Mon May 05 1997 13:19`	5
	is it reading a saveset? If so, and you have the correct ACP for the CDs, I would think it should read it. But I doubt it will read multiple files from the disk as it knows so much of the disk structure. - Richard.
552.7	If You're Not Sure, Try It...	XDELTA::HOFFMAN	Steve, OpenVMS Engineering	`Mon May 05 1997 14:15`	9
	: Will BACKUP support direct access to the ISO 9660 disk structure : or : is it dependent upon the Files-11 disk structure Try a simple test -- put a saveset on the ISO9660, and see if it can be read. (And I'd expect that BACKUP would be able to read savesets off an ISO9660 CD-ROM...)
552.8	Working from vague memories here...	WAYLAY::GORDON	Resident Lightning Designer	`Mon May 05 1997 20:03`	6
	Actually, I think there's an issue because the F11CD support doesn't really do file attributes - or more properly that ISO-9660 doesn't do file attributes and we don't "make 'em up". --Doug
552.9	You can set attributes but will have to get 'em right	STAR::EVERHART		`Tue May 06 1997 10:36`	8
	It is however possible to mount 9660 flavor CD and set the default attributes. The issue might be that these are volume wide and file attributes appropriate to a saveset (e.g. fixed records, 32256 bytes/record, no implied carriage control) are not particularly useful for .COM files, and Backup won't handle stream formats. Still for there to be any hope you'd need to be sure the undefined format values used in mounting matched those in the saveset, which means some intelligence somewhere to save them.