Conference 501clb::pcdoom

I probably have one of the worst case scenarios. I upgrade my little PC 
w/ a Fusion 16 kit, and have just a little performance problem w/ the 
single speed CD-ROM drive that came with the kit.

I have 4MB RAM so am running at the barest possible setup in DOS to make 
the game go.

If you attempt to go headlong into a foray, you will find the system slows
down a lot and becomes very jerky when a lot of action occurs. If you take
your time, like you are supposed to when clearing out an area bit by bit, 
the action stays relatively smooth. Granted, I would dearly love to get
my hands on a faster drive, but, funds and wife being tied together
the way they are...

However, in regards to your question... My performance hit via single-speed
CD-ROM is no worse than my performance hit via HDD on my 420sx.

Cheers to the Doomed!

Greg

Re: .-1   Thanks for the reply!

Is it safe to assume (never!) that if/when the CD-ROM turned out to be a
bottle-neck, I could copy the appropriate files to disk and have the
equivalent of the floppy installed version?  In which case, there would
be really nothing to lose in trying the CD-ROM version...

Thanks again,

Greg

    A cache would be more efficient. Difficult for .1 with only 4 meg
    though...
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
    The CD version has two install options:
    
    "From CD" which puts \doomdata on the specified drive and saves your .CFG
    and saved games there.
    
    "To hard disk" which copies all ~20MB to your hard drive. This does
    not require the CD to be loaded to play or start.
    
    I have a 466DX2 PAS 16 and Toshiba 3401B (2X) installed as "run from
    CD" I find there is a slight lag from time to time but it is not a
    problem for me. Game play does "halt" when accessing the disk so it is
    not as if your going to get fragged while waiting for your CD-ROM
    drive.
    
    I did try DOOM ][ at a local computer shop running on a Del P90 from
    HDD - too smooth for words, it was like the whole display was running
    on ball bearings. Wow!
    
    HTH,
    
    Jason...

Changing direction slightly...

I'm using a 433dx 4mb Ram, and Doom1 and Doom2 both run extremely jerkily on it. 
 I don't know a lot about the set up of my computer, but I know its got a VESA 
card and 128 Cache.  I don't think I can run Smartdrv (if it makes any 
difference), due to the low amount of memory.  It's infuriating at times, 
because you get pounded to death by loads of mad rocket wielding ogres before 
you see the door open.  There's no way I'll be able to finish the game without 
using IDDQD.

Help!

    Doom is very graphics intensive. Your machine matches mine in spec.
    What graphics card do you have - just your standard 1 Mb SVGA Tseng
    jobbie (or something similar) ?
    
    If so, a local bus graphics card works wonders.

Dan,

Don't know what it all means, but I've got a VESA local bus windows accelerator 
jobby, and a 1mb SVGA card (I think)

    Hmmm, then it sounds like your machine is pretty well identical to
    mine.
    
    Presuming none of the following, I'd say it's a memory management
    problem.... try holding down F5 on bootup (skipping all your config.sys
    and autoexec.bat) and then running Doom...
    
    	o The salesman sold you a 486SX25 or, even worse, a 386....
    
    	o They pulled a fast one regarding your local bus graphics card,
    	  and just plugged a Tseng ET1000 into the slot hoping you wouldn't
    	  know any better.
    
    	o They gave you some 150ns SIMMs
    
    	o Your hard drive is 85% fragmented
    
    	o You fiddled with motherboard jumpers and set your CPU speed to
    	  16MHz for a laugh.
    
    	o There is a large crank handle out the side of your machine which
    	  you are failing to turn regularly every 10 minutes.
    
    

Hmmm.....sounds likely...

I would have thought that I've got what I asked for, cos I bought it from DAN.

Now I know the name DAN is synonomous with con-artists and criminals ;-), but 
they're pretty reputable, so I doubt whether they'd've conned me.  I hold left 
shift down during startup (any difference to f5?), and it's still really jumpy.
I'll have to get you to look at it one day...

    Does it have ENIAC written down the side of the casing Matt?

    re .9
    
    Nope, press Function key 5, when you see the starting MS-DOS message.
    This will load no drivers at all and will let the DOS extender handle
    your memory.
    This will be the fastest way you can run DOOM.
    
    If your running >= DOS 6, type defrag at the DOS prompt, and defrag
    your disk.
    
    You may try and get Santa to being you antother 4mb for XMAS, then you
    can run SMARTDRV>
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    I run DOOM on my second PC which is a 386-40 with 4meg. It's not too
    bad, but I use a completely raw boot, no drivers except a mouse.
    
    You might try making the screen one notch smaller.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

WOW!

The difference is amazing! I convinced my wife I was pushing the limits
of the 420sx at a mere 4MB RAM, and bought 4 more. I guess I can put
Smartdrive back in, and see how the cache will handle the game.

Thirty minutes of play and was forced to pause the game just to stop the 
shakes! I had lost so much self control, I was taking pot shots at the wall
right in front of me on the second level, The Underhalls.

Got to level three and WHOA!!!! Ninety minutes later, I'm leaving the 
PC in a cold sweat.

Can't wait to get back at it!

Cheers!

Greg

    Slightly confused on what Doom has already got in it and what we should
    be using. If you look at note 74 there are comments that Doom already
    has memory managers in it's code so no need to load any (ie save memory
    this way), the note also says that it has a cache system as well in
    Doom. So need need for Smartdrive. 
    
    Is all this true? In which case although having extra memory will
    significantly help, using Smartdrive won't. Or will it??
    
    yours confused,
    
    Lawrence.

    This 'cache' within Doom is news to me. I would say, with no memory to
    spare, definitely use a clean boot-up. If you've got 8meg or more, then
    go for some SMARTDRV to speed things up.... then again, I haven't got
    to try this because I've only got 4 meg <sob>

    If you've got 8Mb of RAM or more, then it doesn't matter if you're
    using nothing, expanded, or extended.  Despite what DOOM says, I have tried
    all of these and it didn't matter one little jot.  I never tried it
    with 4Mb, but from looking at Dans machine, an F5 boot type thing seems to
    be best (especially using the network!!)
    
    Ed$doesnt_have_this_problem_but_then_nor_will_dan_when_he_gets_more_ram 

    
    The install manual says do not use smartdrv or any memory managers.
    Just load a minimum config and then run doom.
    I have 8MB and did what the manual says,runs fine,I do have drive 
    rocket running though. I tried running smartdrv also but had no
    noticeable change.
    jeff
    

People at Id software have stated that SMARTDRV is unnecesary because Doom has
its own built-in disk cache.

FWIW: id's motto is ... "But then again, we could be lying."

:-)

See for yourself.  Boot w/ smartdrv and run drive:\dirspec\doom -timedemo,
then boot w/o smartdrv and run the timedemo again.  Compare numbers.   Post
'em here.  Impress your friends.  :-)


- jeff

    Oh. Umm.. I take it back then! I never realised .....
    
    Gawsh them guys are clever at Id aren't they :-)
    
    Dan

    Maybe you should read you manual next time Dan, rather than just
    loading and playing the game.

    Considering that many of the disk reads are going to for previously
    unread data a cache isn't go to make a BFD 9000 is it ?!
    
    Although it is hard for me to tell - I've got 32MB so I have pretty
    well everything in memory all the time. Note: I'm not bragging here,
    just putting everything in perspective... Dave (ala P90), Me 32MB and
    then the rest of you. 8^b
    
    Jason...
    

    Okay guys, here's the procedure for "Offically" clocking your Doom
    performance:
    
    - Go into Doom, configure your options for 
    	Graphic Detail: High
    	Screen: Full (no status)
    	Sound Off (?)
    	exit
    - run doom like this: "doom -devparm -timedemo demo1"
    	it will run for a little while and stop and print two numbers
    - Take the first, multiply by 35, and divide by the second.
    	This gives frames per second.

    I haven't done this on Doom 2 yet.
    Dave.

    When I try the performance measurement mentioned in the previous note I
    get 21.21 on my office system.  484DX/50, Western Digital onboard video
    controller, smartdrv DISABLED.
    
    It doesn't work quite like I'd expect though.  
    
    	doom -devparm -timedemo demo1
    
    starts off with the demo of E2M1, but it quickly loses sync and the
    "doom guy" gets killed.  Right after dying I see a Demon chew up an
    Imp, and the demo just sits there for 30 seconds or so, and then it
    exits and I get the numbers.
    
    When I try the above command without the "demo1" at the end, it cycles
    through all 3 demos and never exits with the performance numbers.
    Does this happen to anyone else?  It's Doom V1.2 if that matters.  (I
    have the 1.666 patch but didn't feel like installing it yet)
    
    Ken
    

    I'll tell you tonight when I go home and try it out on 1.666....
    
    ...let's see everyone's fps in here tomorrow morning, eh!?

    I forgot to mention....
    
    During the "timedemo" I noticed that the frame rate was the same as
    usual (you can tell by the number of flashing dots in the lower left)
    but there was a noticeable slowdown of the animation.  Fireballs
    traveled slower, imps flew backwards in slow motion almost.
    
    Strange.... maybe this doesn't fully work in V1.2
    
    Ken
    

    Results :-
    
    ~14fps
    
    :-[       
    
    ;-)

    Thats rounding it up a bit Dan   :-)
    
    Mine was 20.99, and the other computer in our house was 6.47!!!!  Arf! 
    (And thats a 486 DX33, believe it or not, kak graphics card though.) 
    
    Oh, and that sample isn't on FLYTE yet, give me a chance!!!
    
    Ed

    It's not a 486DX33 remember.
    
    It's a CL486-33.
    
    (Or a 486SX25 in comparable performance)

    It's a bag of $h!+ whatever it is...

P90 system, ati mach64 pci video ... 35fps.

- jeff

    
    DOOM One V1.666 sw
    
    DECpc 466D2LP 32MB RAM S3 <mumble> video
    
    11.5 fps
    
    I think I would rather have .-1!
    
    This demo looks like it was filmed by Zapruder or A Current Affair
    doesn't it! Slow, dreamy and violent.
    
    Jason...

    DOOM ][ - configured for 'Run from CD'
    
    DECpc 466D2LP 32MB RAM S3 <mumble> video
    
    10 fps :^[
    
    Slower than DOOM One by 1.5 fps - I wonder why? This demo has lots of
    turning around, perhaps the amount of screen update info. is greater and
    therefore runs slower than the DOOM One demo.
    
    Jason...
    

    DECpc 450D2LP, 13.55 fps, with a Kelvin 64 ISA card up to 14.94 :^(
    
    Guess I need to get into VLB, somehow!!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    BTW By clean booting, my FPS figure goes up from 13.55 to a massive
    13.87!!

    
    DEC XL 486DX4/99Mhz S3 Video, 8mb = 28fps.

> DECpc 466D2LP 32MB RAM S3 <mumble> video
>                           ^^^^^^^^
> 10 fps :^[

That 'mumble' wouldn't be 'trident' now would it?  Trident cards are notorious
for decent windows performance but *LAME* DOS mode-13h (320x200x256)
performance.

How much 2nd level cache do you have?  Should be 256k.

Your 3d-bench should be in the 45-55 range for a DX2/66 CPU-limited system.
Doom (1 or 2) should do 18fps minimum.

The Doom2 '-timedemo demo1' lmp has much more sectors and linedefs to deal
with than the first lmp in doom1, so it doesn't surprise me that it's a little
slower.

- jeff

    Yes, the timedemo figures for DOOM and DOOM2 are different.... expect a
    lower figure for DOOM2.
    
    Unless you've got one of them darn p90's....

    
         Well,
    
         For all of you complaining about low frame rates...
    
         I got 1.78 fps on my 386sx/16, of course thats at full screen
            and high detail... At the settings I play at I can get about
            6.7 fps, but it looks as though it was filmed in postage
            stamp vision...
    
                                                              HA!,
                                                               Mike.

    Re a few back...
    
    The <mumble> is S3 904 chipset (I think). It is the std. built-in
    non-std. local bus video on the Tiger II Digital PCs - not an ISA based
    SVGA card.
    
    From my experience the video on these boxes is great under Windows but
    lacking under DOS. As a data point the installation for The 7th Guest
    rates the DOS performnace at 1% of optimal.
    
    I haven't benchmarked this system, I don't want to. I don't have any
    room for a ISA SVGA card and can't afford it anyway.
    
    Jason...  

    
    Missing from .-1
    
    My cache size is 128KB - I didn't order the cache upgrade. Maybe I
    should...
    
    Jason...
    

  These results may be useful to people looking to upgrade their systems
  in order to improve DOOM performance. 

  Tests to find the important factors in DOOM frame rate performance

  System: DECpc LPx 466DX2  8MB 70ns RAM, 256K 20ns secondary cache
          S3 VESA 86C805 graphics controller, 1MB DRAM

  DOOM V1.2 Graphic Detail: HIGH, Full Screen, No Sound

  DOOM -DEVPARAMS -TIMEDEMO DEMO1

  Configuration				      Frame Rate
  ------------------------------------------------------
  Clean boot (LH Shift)				28.61
  Clean with secondary cache disabled		23.51
  Clean with all cache disabled			 2.79
  Clean with CPU set to "slow" (=8MHz?)		10.28
  Clean with shadow video disabled		28.57
  Clean with cache BIOS disabled		28.61
  Normal DOS boot				27.80
  Normal +2MB SMARTDRV				27.89
  Normal +4MB SMARTDRV				28.06

  Conclusions

  Primary cache is by far the most important factor, producing an order of 
  magnitude difference in performance. I didn't test secondary cache on it's
  own, largely because of the amount of time to run the test at the expected
  3-4 frames per second.

  CPU clock speed is important, but if the documentation (which says "slow" is
  equivalent to 8MHz) is to be believed, frame rate does not scale with CPU 
  speed. An 8 fold speed reduction in clock speed produced only a 3 fold 
  reduction in frame rate. 

  Secondary cache produced just over 21% performance improvement. This is
  almost exactly as claimed in the options catalogue - "first 128K gives 15% 
  improvement, second 128K gives a further 7%". (I'm not prepared to open the
  system box and change the jumpers to measure 128K on its own, though I'd
  expect it to be 25-26 fps)

  I was trying to use absurdly large SMARTDRV caches to simulate reduced 
  system memory. However, much to my surprise, larger SMARTDRV caches actually
  *improved* performance by a small amount. I was unable to get DOOM to start 
  with a SMARTDRV cache 4.5MB or larger.
						John Gillings, Sydney CSC

						

    Following the instructions in .22
    
    486SX-25, VLB clone 1meg Video (Trident), 8meg, 128K cache, non-minimal
    boot, Doom 1.2:
    
    10.33fps
    
    Not bad...
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
    The only big diff. between .-1's platform and mine is cache - I've got
    128KB he has 256KB.
    
    Why is my fps such toe jam???
    
    I'm going to check my CMOS settings - maybe I'm in "slow" mode - or
    cache got disabled somehow. The system did take a power hit the other
    week maybe CMOS got bent?!?!
    
    Wondering,
    
    Jason...
    

    re .43
    
    Jason,
    
    He's got the LPX+, which has Vesa Local Bus video......

    
    Thanks Greg:
    
    I didn't notice the X+ part.
    
    Jason...

>    I didn't notice the X+ part.
    
    Neither did I! Unless someone has shipped the wrong box, my system is
    definitely a plain vanilla LPx. That's what it says on the front. The
    video adapter is the cheapest S3 available (S3 805 VL Bus) plugged into 
    one of the 2 32 bit VESA slots in the LPx. So What's the difference?
    
    						John Gillings, Sydney CSC
                                                                 

    Ok, but John's is an LPx, whereas Jasons' is an LP, the LPx has a
    different S3 controller.
    
    The LPx just added Energy Star compliance, and a different cache
    memory, I believe.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

Name		    FPS	    Machine			    Doom
===============================================================================

SUBPAC::MAGGARD	    35	    P90,16Mb,PCI		    ?
DAVE::MITTON	    35	    P90,16Mb,PCI		    ?
GIDDAY::GILLINGS    28.61   486DX2-66,8Mb,VLB		    v1.2
OCTAVE::VIGNEAULT   28	    486DX4,8Mb,S3		    ?
PURPL1::SWANSON	    21.21   486DX-50,??Mb,VLB		    ?
HERO::MASON	    20.99   486DX2-66,16Mb,PCI		    v1.666
BAHTAT::HILTON	    13.87   486DX2-50,??Mb,ISA		    ?
FORTY2::HOWELL	    13.2    486DX-33,4Mb,VLB		    v1.666
TROOA::BARTLETT	    11.5    486DX2-66,32Mb,ISA		    v1.666
PLAYER::BROWNL	    10.33   486SX-25,8Mb,VLB		    v1.2
TROOA::BARTLETT	    10	    486DX2-66,32Mb,ISA,off CD	    DOOM2
LUDWIG::MURRAY	    1.78    386SX-16,??Mb,ISA??		    ?

o FPS max's out at 35.

o DOOM2 timedemo is slightly slower than a DOOM1 timedemo.

o All results are with full screen, high detail, no sound.

o Command is : doom -devparm -timedemo demo1

    How on earth has GIDDAY::GILLINGS (apologies for not knowing your
    name!) got 28 fps??? Wow.  Git.  Someone tell me......
    
    Ed (HERO:: / IOSG:: MASON)

    re .49
    
    Read .42

    Compared to you, Ed, I'd say his VESA local bus card had something to
    do with it.... you do have 256k cache on your machine, don't you, Ed?!
    
    :-)
    
    Dan

    The cache is fine thank you. The problem is the PCI card.  I dunno,
    better windows performance at the expense of DOOM.  Bit slack was'n'it?
    
    I hang my head in shame.
    
    Ed
    
    Still, almost 21 fps ain't too bad!

    
         Wooooo Whoooo!
    
         I got the lowest frame rate! That's on Doom with 4Meg o' RAM.
    
         I will cherish this honor for ever! So, where do I collect
            my prize? :^)
    
                                                          Doh!,
                                                           Mike.

    And we thought our house mate would win with 6.47 on his 486C33 ....!
    Well done, you're prize is a priv'd account on FLYTE ....!
    
    NOT!!!!!!!!
    
    ;-)

    
         RE: -.1
    
         Gee, thanks I guess! ;^)
    
         Actually, I got a local BBS that has all my Doom/Doom2 supplies.
            About 20 Meg worth! Plus, I now the sysop real well...
    
         BTW, I'm runnin' v1.2 on the 386...
    
         But, I actually play v1.666 on a 486/33 w/20Mb and SVGA 1Mb
            video board... Much, much better than 7 frames every four
            seconds... ;^)
    
                                                  Can wait for my PCI!
                                                   Mike.

    I ran the time demo on my systems and had the following results.
    
    486dx33(intel), Genoa VLB graphics card, 8mb mem.    13.58 fps
    486dlc33(cyrix), Cirrus VLB graphics card, 8mb mem.   9.24 fps
    
    Both systems have 256k cache.
    wade
    

Name		    FPS	    Machine			    Doom    Cache
===============================================================================

SUBPAC::MAGGARD	    35	    P90,16Mb,PCI		    ?
DAVE::MITTON	    35	    P90,16Mb,PCI		    ?
GIDDAY::GILLINGS    28.61   486DX2-66,8Mb,VLB		    v1.2    256k
OCTAVE::VIGNEAULT   28	    486DX4,8Mb,S3		    ?
PURPL1::SWANSON	    21.21   486DX-50,??Mb,VLB		    ?
HERO::MASON	    20.99   486DX2-66,16Mb,PCI		    v1.666  256k
BAHTAT::HILTON	    13.87   486DX2-50,16Mb,ISA		    v1.666
NWD002::GOODWIN_WA  13.58   486DX-33,8Mb,VLB		    ?	    256k
FORTY2::HOWELL	    13.2    486DX-33,4Mb,VLB		    v1.666  256k
TROOA::BARTLETT	    11.5    486DX2-66,32Mb,ISA		    v1.666  128k
PLAYER::BROWNL	    10.33   486SX-25,8Mb,VLB		    v1.2    128k
TROOA::BARTLETT	    10	    486DX2-66,32Mb,ISA,off CD	    DOOM2   128k
NWD002::GOODWIN_WA  9.24    486DLC-33,8Mb,VLB		    ?	    256k
LUDWIG::MURRAY	    1.78    386SX-16,4Mb,ISA		    v1.2
CHEFS::GEORGEM	    ??	    486DX-33,4Mb,VLB		    v1.666  128k
DECWET::MCCADDON    ??	    486SX-20,8Mb,???		    ?
WRKSYS::BCLARK	    ??	    486DX2-66,8Mb,???		    ?
GIGI32::LEGERLOTZ   ??	    P60,??Mb,???		    ?
MINOTS::CAIAZZI	    ??	    386?X-33,?Mb,???		    ?
UNXA::RUCH	    ??	    P60,8Mb,PCI			    ?

o FPS max's out at 35.

o DOOM2 timedemo is slightly slower than a DOOM1 timedemo.

o All results are with full screen, high detail, no sound.

o Command is : doom -devparm -timedemo demo1

o At a request I have included cache size, which seems to have
  quite an effect on performance.

Name		    FPS	    Machine			    Doom    Cache
SUBPAC::MAGGARD	    35	    P90,16Mb,PCI	  IIv1.7, Iv1.2Reg  256k

    ... I seem to have misplaced my first set of numbers.  I run again
    and bring them in.  I'm seeing someone on the Internet a.g.d group
    suggest demo2 not demo1 for DoomII. FWIW.
    
    	Dave.

4307*35/10800=13.96

NAME                FPS   MACHINE                         D2        CACHE

AYOV25::SLITTLEJOHN 13.96 486DX2-66,8Mb,CIRRUS LOGIC ISA  V1.666    64K

(Turning the sound on drops the figure to 12.80)

Stuart

    
    For those who must be 100% accurate.
    
    My DEClp 466 is not ISA video it is the [Tigger II] Local Bus video
    which is DEC proprietory.
    
    Unfortunately all this fancy stuff doesn't help my fps rate does it?!
    
    Jason...

Doom V1.2, Full screen, No sound

21.21 fps

DECpc 450d2, 8MB RAM, 128Kb Cache, S3 805 LB Video (1MB)

    Hello!
    	I'm rather new to these notesfiles but I couldn't help but notice
    this one. I have a question that possible somebody could help me out
    with. Here it goes...
    	I have a 386sx/40mhz 2meg clone so obviously I can't run DOOM at
    this time. I'm going to be upgrading my memory to 8megs in the near
    future and I was wondering if even with my 386 at 8megs DOOM would be
    playable(i.e. my fps would be favorable or choppy)? Any experiences
    with a similar setup? I don't know if I want to play a game that has a
    frame rate of 1.7 a second.
    	Any help would be greatly appreciated...
    
    Thanks,
    Jeff

486DX2-66  8Mb  64k cache  ISA video   2001*35/4472=15.67

I got the following figures for my DECpc 560XL 48mb PCI 2mb Viper &
256K Cache setuo for Write Thru.

Doom I	28fps
Doom II 23fps

has anyone else got a 560XL with a Viper that they can check because
I think the frame rate should be faster OR is it the DOS Performance of the
P9000 based Viper.

Grant
SUBURB::TAYLORG

    I also run DOOM on my second PC, a 386DX-40 with only 4 meg of memory.
    I have to keep the screen fairly small, but it's certainly playable.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    My performance, I haven't bothered to tune it yet, but I may well do
    just to see what rate I can get :-)
    
    486dx2-66 16Mb RAM, DOOM I   24.77 sound on
    			DOOM II  16.39 sound on
    
    Will do several config changes tonight to try and peak the fps :-)
    
    Mark

    BTW, I thought DOOM I & II were running smooth enough so I would love
    to see a 35 fps DOOM :-)
    
    Mark

    Another thing I've just noticed was that the doom II demo was running
    very very slow when running the timedemo compared to actually playing
    the game.  The demo had the mini gun and it was firing about 2 shots a
    second, when I play the gun fires many a second, is this normal, if not
    what would cause the difference?
    
    Mark

    
    Okay, here's more info to clarify my performance:
    
     DEC XL4100 486DX4, 8mb, PCI, 128mb ext cache:
    
     Doom2:  28.41fps
    
     Doom1:  34.47fps
    
     Larry
     

    Viper video adapters are very fast in Windows, but VERY slow in dos.
    I have a 466 MTE with S3 805 and 256k cache.  Running Doom1 W/1.666
    I get 27 fps, I tried an S3 928 and that dropped to 25. VLB Viper
    on the same pc did 16.  It seems as Windows performance increases,
    dos performance decreases.  A PCI Viper was just as slow in a P60
    XL as the MTE466 w/VLB Viper. 
    
    
                                          Todd Monahan
    

    
         RE: Vipers
    
         Well, it all depends on what type of Diamond you have,
            there are some models that are Window accelerators and
            there are others which are graphics accelerators.
    
         I specifically looked at Diamond for a card that was not a
            Window accelerator. I believe the Vipers are graphic
            accelerators while the Stealths are Windows... I'll
            check my card tonight...
    
                                                           Bye,
                                                            Mike.

    I got some interesting results on Doom 1 on my laptop last night, its a
    425 SL with 8mb memory and no cache:
    
    Doom Version	FPS
    
    1.1			11.01
    1.2			11.30
    1.666		10.32
    
    So I reckon, unless you experience problems with 1.2 , it's worth
    sticking with!!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    This is kind of reflected in our little collection of FPS figures off
    everyone. Some of the fastest are using 1.2.
    
    And Id said that the 1.666 graphics engine was _slightly_ quicker. I
    think they've probably made some other part 5% slower just to annoy us
    ;-) !!
    
    Dan

    And don't forget to add my laptop performance figures into your chart
    Dan, now I wonder how many entries I can get, there's a number of PC's
    here in the office......;^)

    RE :
    
    <<< Note 138.72 by STRATA::MMURRAY "Hey Frank, let me borrow your keys." >>>
                   -< Diamond should have both available... >-

    
    >     RE: Vipers
    >
    >     Well, it all depends on what type of Diamond you have,
    >        there are some models that are Window accelerators and
    >        there are others which are graphics accelerators.
    >
    >     I specifically looked at Diamond for a card that was not a
    >        Window accelerator. I believe the Vipers are graphic
    >        accelerators while the Stealths are Windows... I'll
    >        check my card tonight...
    >
    
    Wrong way round as far as I can tell. The viper is the p9000 equipped
    Windows accelerator and uses the OAK chipse for VGA which isn't very
    good at DOS performance. The stealth uses the latest S3 and give good
    across-the-board performance.
    
    Guess which one I've got.
    
    Wrong, I've got the viper. Major pain.
    
    Balders

    Okay, ran some numbers again last night.   Ran both demo1 and demo2
    for yucks.  I didn't turn the sound off, as I didn't really want to
    fiddle with the Setup (vs the options).
    
    Gateway 2000 Pentium 90mhz, 16MB, ATI Mach 64 PCI video w/2MB,
    540MB IDE, Jazz 16 sound (SB compat), (sound on)
    
    Doom 1.666  demo1	39.98 fps
    		demo2	41.80
    
    Doom 2	demo1	33.67
    		demo2	36.55
    
    	Dave.

    Robert  Brogdon
    
    29.3 fps doom1 v 1.666 486-dx2/66 stb lightspeed (tseng et4000 w32p)
    16 meg ram 256k cache
    

    
    Just to clarify for future Doom performance charts, my note (.70)
    refers to Doom I and Doom ][ using the V1.666 engine for both.
    
    Larry
    

    to clarify my times, they are with sound enabled, I will sort it out so
    that sound is disabled.  Also is full screen without the status bar, if
    so I will definately have to do my timedemo again.
    
    btw what are the command line parameters for nosound, full screen?
    
    Mark

    No parameters.
    
    Full screen is :-
    
    	press + lots of times.
    
    No sound is :-
    
    	go into setup and select no sounds.
    
    :-]

    Clone (Shi-tec) 486 DX2-50, VLB video card (Cirrus 1mb), 8Mb ram,
    128k cache (I think, how do I check?)
    
    Doom 1.2, no sound, full screen, (2567*35)/4605 = 19.51 fps.
    
    
    Cheers,							Steve
    

    ��128k cache (I think, how do I check?)
    
    Normally says how much cache on startup. Could be particular to a
    certain BIOS, though, so I dunno....

I know this may sound a little extreeeeeeeeeeeemmmm....


and.., Not everyone has this luxury,, but if you have enough memory...


make a special boot menu for DOOM2, which creates a 20meg ram drive,
copy the game into the ram drive, and
run it off that...  

I know the game doesn't hit drive much, but I'm telling ya, there
is a difference..  Big one!


and as if the freakin pentium isn't fast enough,
when the game is loaded in to ram, it only takes about 2 seconds
to start the game, and once in, there is no frame delay at all.
even on FULL screen.. AWESOME.....

Make sure you copy your saved game back to disk though....

    Yeah we've talked about this little trick before.
    
    Doom 1 can be done from 16Mb RAM... Doom 2, so it would seem, needs a
    little more.. 20Mb ?
    
    This is by far the quickest method. Most of the time Doom slows down is
    due to disc access (or atleast on anything from 486DX33 upwards). In
    all honesty, a frame rate of about 15-20 fps is perfectly acceptable
    and any more is .... well, umm.... better :-)
    
    Dan$only 4 meg so can't try this out yet.

    
    I bet us 'from CD' players could see a bit of an advantage here since
    the game is already designed to save .CFG and games in another
    disk/directory.
    
    I've found the slowest part is getting the game (.WAD I assume) to load
    the first time (during the startup text screen). This part sems to take
    forever. Once it is loaded and running it is OK.
    
    I'll think I'll try this out 'cuz I can.
    
    Jason...

    I tried the ramdisk with a system that has 20 meg with doom II and it
    works I use a size of 16384 k on the ramdrive.sys driver. I ran the
    frame test on it vs the hard drive and found less than 1.0 fps
    difference on my p-90 system. Also my 488/dx2-66 has a ide vlb
    caching disk controller with 4 meg and it loads doom faster than 
    most all other setups I have seen except for the ramdisk.
    
    				Regards, Robert
    

    Just ran the tests on my system - 466DX2 clone MB (Bioteq) with 
    8MB (6MB 80ns & 2MB 70ns - I know!) RAM, 256k 20ns external cache, 
    Cirrus Logic 5428 VESA LB graphics board w/ 1MB DRAM - detail high, 
    full screen, sound off.
    
    Results:           DOOM v1.2                 DOOM ][ v1.666
    clean boot          25.71                        17.79
    
    Need a P90!!!!

RE RAMDRIVE


OH Well I guess 48MB will be enough to have a permenant amdrive of
16-20mb ;-)

P.S my figures are with 1.6666 on both I and ][.


Grant

    Oops sorry I missed you out of the Doom 1 chart! Correction made for
    next posting ;-) !!!
    
    Dan

    
         RE: Diamond Viper...
    
         :^( I checked my card over the weekend, sure enough it is
                a Windows accelerator... How useless... :^(
    
         So which card does Diamond make that's a graphics accelerator?
    
         Or more to the point, who makes a better or _the_ best graphics
            accelerator cards? For VLB? PCI? Price not withstanding...
    
                                                             Bye,
                                                              Mike.

> Or more to the point, who makes a better or _the_ best graphics accelerator
> cards? For VLB? PCI? Price not withstanding...

The 64 bit pci vram video cards (Diamond Stealth 64 pci vram, ATI mach64 pci
vram, #9 GXE pro-whatever pci vram) all pretty much scream, and all about the
same performance wise.  Not all have full/clean support for stuff like linux,
OS2, and some odd high resolutions like 1600x1200 etc. so make sure you find
one that'll work for what you need to do <biting my tongue> besides Doom.

My p90 has an ATI mach64 pci 2mb vram.  It's fast.  We'll see how it performs
with Nascar Racing at 640x480.  I think the Diamond Stealth had the bragging
rights last month.  Not that your eyes are really fast enough to tell the
difference.  

- jeff

    
Name		    FPS	    Machine			    Doom    Cache
===============================================================================
SFC01::GREENE 	    42.15   P60,8MB,PCI,DS64 2MB VRAM       v1.666  256KB



Did I do this right????  I'm faster than a P90?  I ran Doom 1.666 on my
Insight Pentium 60, 8MB, Diamond Stealth 64 2MB VRAM:


	Results:   42.15 fps

		   Guess I did the calculations right?
		   > doom -devparm -timedemo demo1

		     6305 gametics, 5235 realtics

I jsut got my PC a few days ago and I haven't done any real memory
management tweaking yet and a "mem" shows 565KB conventional memory free.
    
Regards,
Dave
    

    Update on the performance thingy :-)
    
    When I did my first test I didn't realise that it had to be no sound
    max detail, so I re-ran the tests:
    
    normal configuration   - 	Doom I 23.13		Doom II  19.54
    Basic config (L shift) -	Doom I 23.40		Doom II  20.23
    
    Computer stat update - 128 k cache Cirrus Logic VLB and Doom I is v1.2
    
    Mark
    
    PS
    
    looks like Doom I dropped in performance and Doom II increased, what
    does that say about sound in Doom I, not very intensive compared to
    Doom II?

    re.93
    
    I was told it maxed out a 35, so I cut any figures over that. I will
    re-read the notes and update all you Pentium owner's figures but, no, I
    don't think you're faster than a P90 somehow ;-] !!
    
    Regards,
    
    	Dan

    RE: .95

>I was told it maxed out a 35, so I cut any figures over that. I will
>re-read the notes and update all you Pentium owner's figures but,
>no, I don't think you're faster than a P90 somehow ;-] !!


I ran it again with the same command line (i.e., doom -devparm -timedemo demo1)
and made sure I was running high res/detail and sound on: got just about
the same number (approx 41.5 fps).  I used the formula given in note 138.22

	" - Take the first, multiply by 35, and divide by the second.
            This gives frames per second."

to derive the fps rating.  Perhaps the DOOM demo bottleneck is the
graphics, not the CPU. That could explain why my P60 with the DS64 2MB VRAM
beat out a P90 with an ATI Mach64.   I just bought my PC, and looked
carefully at the 64-bit graphics boards.  I narrowed my choices down to 
either the ATI Mach64 Ultra Graphics Pro/Expression? or the Diamond 
Stealth 64 VRAM.  But went with the DS64 because three different PC magazine
articles comparing boards showed the DS 64 was almost as fast as the ATI
for Windows applications (maybe 2% performance difference).  But the DS64
was much faster than the ATI for DOS applications.  This demo test seems
to bear out the articles and my decision to go with the Diamond Stealth.

Regards,
Dave
  
    

    No, you misunderstood, from what I've heard, the actuall graphics maxes
    out at 35. So if you get anything higher, 36, 40, 45, 129, it's a good
    indication of how powerful your processor is, but the actual FPS going
    to the screen hits 35 and stops there.
    
    So, yes, it will show how powerful your processor is, but I just put 35
    for all those P90 blokes, their real figures are something daft like
    40-something!
    
    Besides, the human eye maxes out at around 50 fps if I remember
    rightly?!
    
    Anyway, cheers for the figures, I'll update the board....
    
    Dan

    Yes, the many people have said (who knows where they heard it from)
    that Doom maxes out at 35fps.  So if it does, then why do we get these
    numbers???  and we do, we're not making them up.
    
    I'd rather see you post the number we report, and put the 35 fps as a
    footnote.  Otherwise why bother listing them.  Just scrunch us all down
    at the end.  Say these guys are lying sobs with fast systems and we
    don't care to let them compare amonst themselves.
    
    Sigh.
    
    	Dave.

    Hey look I'm changing them alright?! Cripes.......

Well, after reading previous replies and notes 142 & 143, I'm forced to ask
"What's wrong with my system"?

Here's the setup:

	486DX2-66 VLB, 16MB, 256K cache, Diamond Viper VLB video w/2MB

Here's the results:

	Doom: ~12 fps
	Doom II: ~11 fps

I get the same results whether or not I bypass CONFIG.SYS & AUTOEXEC.BAT at
boot-up.

Looking at results from other similarly configured systems, it seems I should
expect around 25 fps for DOOM and 16 fps for DOOM II.  Is my video card
the bottleneck (I know that the Viper isn't noted for stellar DOS performance)?
Any other ideas on where I might look?

    Just re-ran the tests on my system (486DX2-66 clone 8MB RAM, 256k 20ns 
    cache, CL5428 VLB 1MB DRAM - detail high, full screen, sound off but 
    this time with the joystick deselected (KB only).
                       =============================

    Old Results:           DOOM I v1.2                 DOOM ][ v1.666
    clean boot with          25.71                        17.79
    Joystick selected 
    

    New Results:          2567x35                      4307x35               
    as detailed above     ------- = 26.03              ------- = 17.93
                           3452                         8407

Will one of those #9 video boards w/ 2 MB VRAM help improve the performance?

T

    I re-ran the test on both my PCs, ensuring that all the criteria for
    the test (full screen; no status, high graphics, demo1 for Doom I,
    demo2 for Doom II) were complied with. The machines are:
    
    486SX-25, VLB, 128K L2 cache, 8 meg memory, 1meg cheapo VLB video, WD
    Caviar VLB 11ms IDE, mouse/keyboard control
    
    386DX-40, ISA, 64K L2 cache, 4 meg memory, 1meg cheapo ISA Trident
    video, RLL (RD53) 35ms HD, mouse/keyboard control
    
    Here're the results:
    
    Doom 1	486 10.70
    		386  5.74
    
    Doom II	486  8.15
    		386  4.84
    
    Time for a faster machine! Actually, a good video card would probably
    speed things up nicely.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    The Orchid Kelvin 64 got good reviews over here in the UK for excellent
    DOS performance. Just purchased the PCI version, so I'll post some
    figures...sometime...

    I've just realised that the figures I posted in .42 aren't quite right
    as they weren't measured properly. I hadn't realised how the sound
    stuff worked and had merely turned the volume down, instead of
    disabling sounds altogether. Now that I've figured out how to drive
    SETUP, my corrected figure is:
    
  System: DECpc LPx 466DX2  8MB 70ns RAM, 256K 20ns secondary cache
          S3 VESA 86C805 graphics controller, 1MB DRAM

  DOOM V1.2 Graphic Detail: HIGH, Full Screen, No Sound
    
    2567 gametics in 2921 realtics => 30.76 fps
    
    This cannot be due to the elcheapo graphics card, I think they've done 
    something exceptionally clever with the *primary* cache on this box to
    make it so fast. It's a bummer we don't market these things as well as
    we put them together!
    						John Gillings, Sydney CSC
                                                                         

re: joystick slows down doom

Joysticks will slow most any game down.  Most game cards use RC time delays to
measure the resistance of the joystick axes.  The time that it takes to poll
each joystick axis is significant.  In addition to slowing the system down,
this 'polling delay' can cause problems with some game cards on faster
systems... ...since the game card cannot supply the joystick position
information as fast as the system requires.  


re: turning off the sound

Use the "-nosound" command line parameter:

    DOOM -DEVPARM -TIMEDEMO DEMO1 -NOSOUND


re: .102 and the need for a video card upgrade

> 386DX-40, ISA, 64K L2 cache, 4 meg memory, 1meg cheapo ISA Trident video,
                                                             ^^^^^^^
Trident cards are positively the WORST dos video performers out there.  I'd be
surprised if a trident card can do a 3dbench (or doom -timedemo) over 15fps on
ANY system.  They work fine for windows, but the video memory is severely
paralyzed for DOS for no sane reason.

Laurie, your 486/25 should be reasonable with a better video card.  You might
get a 3dbench approaching 20 and/or a doom -timedemo close to 18 (getting to
be playable).  You may also squeeze out an extra 1 or 2 fps by upping the L2
cache of the 486 to 256k.  

Then there's always the rice and water diet...

- jeff

    DEC Celebris FP 590, 40 meg, 512K cache, nosound, DOOM ][ v 1.666
    ~ 43 frames per second

    Ok, someone care to explain why a P60 outperforms a P90?
    
    SFC01::GREENE       42.15   P60,8Mb,PCI                     v1.666 
    256k
    DAVE::MITTON        39.98   P90,16Mb,PCI                    v1.666
    SUBPAC::MAGGARD     35      P90,16Mb,PCI                    v1.666 
    256k
    
    Greg (with a P60 on the way)

    This puzzled me, I'm thinking Dave hasn't got his machine set up right?

RE:              <<< Note 138.105 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "Integrate!" >>>
re: .102 and the need for a video card upgrade

� > 386DX-40, ISA, 64K L2 cache, 4 meg memory, 1meg cheapo ISA Trident video,
�                                                              ^^^^^^^
� Trident cards are positively the WORST dos video performers out there.  I'd be
� surprised if a trident card can do a 3dbench (or doom -timedemo) over 15fps on
� ANY system.  They work fine for windows, but the video memory is severely
� paralyzed for DOS for no sane reason.
� 
� Laurie, your 486/25 should be reasonable with a better video card.  You might
� get a 3dbench approaching 20 and/or a doom -timedemo close to 18 (getting to
� be playable).  You may also squeeze out an extra 1 or 2 fps by upping the L2
� cache of the 486 to 256k.  
    
    Yeah, I know all that. Two things put me off. Firstly, I'm not that
    fond of windows as a 'system management' environment. I like using
    windows apps, but for 'management' tasks I much prefer DOS. Secondly,
    all the decent PC games are DOS-based, for obvious reasons. Maybe
    this'll change with the new Windows graphics driver, but I'm not
    holding my breath
    
    Most "good" video cards are optimised for Windows, but I would want one
    that's optimised for both. Such a beast doesn't seem to exist although
    there seem to be a few good compromises. Any suggestions?
    
    Increasing the cache is a cheap option, and one I think I'll be taking
    soon anyway.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
         Ok, Ok, o-kay...
    
         Laurie, from what was discussed in this conference I think that
            the Diamond _Stealth_ would be a card to look at. But, for
            any card you want to look at the on board memory, I think the
            better out of VRAM and DRAM is the DRAM (???) and I think you
            can get from 1 to 4 meg worth of that.
    
         There are other cards, but I don't remember the names right
            now...
    
         Of course, you could always check back issues of PC World, they're
            always doing comparison studies of different video cards. The
            articles seem to be mostly aimed at Windows, like it's an
            industry standard or something :^), but it does give you
            benchmarks in other areas including DOS... There are some
            graphics accelerators that make it into the top 10 or so...
    
                                                                Bye,
                                                                 Mike.

    The Stealth is a v good card, not being biass or anything!!
    
    If you really want DOS performance as opposed to Windows, get a VLB
    one, with as much VRAM as you can afford (VRAM being better tham DRAM.)
    
    There.
    
    I bet that didn't help did it?
    
    Ed

    I, like Laurie, would much prefer a super-duper-VLB graphics card which
    is the *best* in DOS, and simply acceptable/bare-minimum in Windows. I
    hardly use Windows.
    
    VRAM/DRAM won't make the card any quicker in DOS. The memory is for
    higher resolutions, not speed. Unless the card has one of the latest
    'caching' facilities to use it's memory with, but I don't believe they
    do.
    
    FOr a DOS based card, I think I read in the PC notes conference that
    the *stealth* is DOS-fast (graphics accelerated) and the *viper* is
    Windows-accelerated.... is that right?
    
    Dan$still wondering what the Ultimate VESA Local Bus DOS-based graphics
    card is :-)

    I'm just using a bog-standard no-name VLB 1meg Trident card; it cost 45
    quid or something, and I bought it just to get up and running. I recall
    that in the last couple of days, someone posted a whole load of
    benchmarks in the PC conference. I'll have to try to dig them out. The
    time has come for a decent card.
    
    Laurie.

    Well, for what it's worth, I has an ISA 1Mb SVGA Oak grafix card
    before, and it was bloody awful.
    
    :-)

    The Orchid Kelvin 64 got a good review for it's DOS performance in PC
    Format, they said the Diamond was faster, the next month, but for twice
    the price!

    
    BTW
    
    There is a speed diff. twixt VRAM and DRAM. VRAM is dual-ported (read
    _and_ write at same time) DRAM is single-ported (read _or_ write). VRAM
    does allow for better (faster) throughput cuz the memory pool can
    written to by the app. at the same time as the video logic reads for
    generation of a picture.
    
    The above usually only of benefit on boffo wiz-bang systems.
    
    Calling all shoppers. I understand the higher-end ATI series cards have
    good DOS and Windows numbers, plus they're Canadian made and therefore
    much better than any other junk out there _and_ come with snow shoes
    and a spiffy Mountie hat. All the better to help you 'get your
    man/baddie'. A must 8^)
    
    Jason...

    From the .net:
    
    Gerry Massie ([email protected]) wrote:
    : In article <[email protected]>
    [email protected] (Alek Hayes) writes:
    : >Newsgroups: alt.games.doom,alt.games.doom.ii
    : >From: [email protected] (Alek Hayes)
    : >Path:
    news.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!
    !demon!tempest.demon.co.uk!Captain
    : >Subject: Re: Video cards, what I have tested...
    
    
    : >I use a Western Digital Paradise VLB card with Doom, and I
    must say that
    : >everything goes on this card. I used Doomtach with it, and I
    got a frame rate
    : >of up to 110fps. The Kelvin came up to about 85, which is
    still pretty damn good.
    : >Others peaked at about 50.
    : >-- 
    : >Alek Hayes
    
    
    
    

> I understand the higher-end ATI series cards have good DOS and Windows
> numbers, plus they're Canadian made and therefore much better than any other
> junk out there _and_ come with snow shoes and a spiffy Mountie hat. 

I get good DOS and windows performance from my ATI mach64 pci 2mb VRAM card.
All of the 64 bit accelerated VLB/PCI cards kick some serious pixelated butt.
I think the Diamond Stealth takes the top honors in DOS, but the differences
between the 64 bit cards are small.  I don't think you'd ever notice the
difference without a benchmark.

ATI didn't send *me* a Mountie Hat! :-(


- jeff

    Okay then....
    
    UK prices for Diamond Stealth 64 2Mb VRAM VLB
    		  ATI mach64 2Mb VRAM VLB
    
    ?????
    
    :-)

    RE .118
    
    Maybe the hat thing was special deal at the last computer show?!
    
    Jason...

RE:        <<< Note 138.119 by FORTY2::HOWELL "Just get to the point..." >>>

    I looked in the December Computer Shopper:
    
�    UK prices for Diamond Stealth 64 2Mb VRAM VLB
    
    �245
�    		  ATI mach64 2Mb VRAM VLB
    
    �?
    
    I could only find a few suppliers for the DS64, and Simply Computers
    were the cheapest. The ATI I couldn't find at all. I'll look more
    carefully if I get time.
    
    Me, I'd buy the DS64 I think.
    
    Laurie.

    Blimey that's a load of dough....!
    
    What about the DRAM, cheaper I presume.... but slower?
    
    Dan$dreaming of a new graphics card but kidding himself really ;-)

    Yep, the Dram is cheaper, about 100 quid so it seems.
    
    Cheapest so far is Dab Direct who have the 2 meg Vram for �235, the
    2meg Dram is 145, same as Simply Computers' price. Still no sign of the
    ATI!
    
    Late news, Fox Computer systems have the 2meg Dram for �139 and the
    2meg Vram or �229. Still no sign of the ATI and lunch is over.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Laurie/Dan,
    
    I'll check my Micro Mart tonight, should be able to get it cheaper.
    
    Greg

    Is VRAM only beneficial is certain uses? ie. VRAM only makes any
    difference in Windows, VRAM only makes any difference in DOS, VRAM only
    makes any difference in games supporting it, VRAM is totally
    useless/pointless unles you're doing serious CAD work, and so on...
    
    ??? VRAM or DRAM ???

    Look in the PC conf for an answer.
    
    There have been HUGE debates about it in there.
    
    But the short and curlies is that VRAM is quicker all round.
    
    It's just up to you as to if it's 100 quid better.

    Yeah I know, but you know what the discussion's like in the PC
    conference. You ask a simple question and get blasted with 50 replies
    all saying how the internal read/write I/O figures are negligible and
    the hit bursts on the video cache are extrapolated by the graphics
    co-processor and blitted to an external data bus via several augmented
    32k fast-access buffers.... and so on.....
    
    Right then. VRAM it is. Cheers!
    
    Dan

    RE the Diamond Stealth card prices, from my cheap supplier in the UK:
    
    VESA Diamond Stealth 64D 1mb  99 pounds
    VESA Diamond Stealth 64V 2mb 249 pounds
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    Why can't I run the benchmark on Doom ][? I keep getting "Missing file
    demo2.lpm" error messages....
    
    Steev

    I get the report "cannot add demo1.lmp" (or something like that)
    message but it still runs the test, so I never really thought about it.
    
    Weird.
    
    Dan

    I noticed the same thing last night - but the demo did run OK. I re-ran
    the demo with sound (Music and FX) OFF to see if my fps number got any
    better. WOW! it jumped from 10.0 fps to a whopping 10.5 fps a 1.05%
    improvement. Not even worth updating the table for this one. Clearly
    this machine's DOS video performance bites/sux/hurts/etc.
    
    Pretty snappy under WFWg 3.11 with 32bit disk/file access turned on and
    5MB disk cache though.
    
    Jason$tail_between_legs 

Dan (::Howell) and I have been in an e-mail debate of late to see what's the
best method to assess FPS in Doom and Doom II.

Here's my data, which will hopefully demonstrate that messing with the
SETUP.EXE is not necessary if one uses the "-nosound" parameter in conjunction
with the "doom -devparm -timedemo demo1" command line...

Doom version    set sounds on/off       -nosound used           FPS
doom 1 v1.666       on                          no              39.4
    "               on                          yes             41.4
    "               off                         no              41.4
    "               off                         yes             41.4

doom 2 v1.7         on                          no              35.4
    "               on                          yes             37.4
    "               off                         no              37.4
    "               off                         yes             37.4


I noticed that from one 'demo' to the next under identical setup and command
lines, the realticks number would change by a tick or two.  For example, on
one occasion, for Doom 1, the FPS was over 42 but on subsequent repeated
'demos' it was a steady 41.4.  As to which number to quote for the performance
chart... :-)

Your mileage will, of course, vary.

- jeff

RE:<<< Note 138.128 by BAHTAT::HILTON "Beer...now there's a temporary solution" >>>

�    RE the Diamond Stealth card prices, from my cheap supplier in the UK:
�    
�    VESA Diamond Stealth 64D 1mb  99 pounds
�    VESA Diamond Stealth 64V 2mb 249 pounds
    
    Hmm, so Fox, at �229 for the 2 meg Vram is quite a bit cheaper. I
    checked their 1meg Dram price (the 2 meg is �139), and it's also �99.
    It just goes to show that looking around can save a lot of money.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
         Hi all,
    
         Just thought I'd pop in here and mention... This month's Computer
            Gaming World has a pretty extensive review of systems, graphics
            cards, hard drives and controllers aimed at gamers.
    
         It does some fairly well explaining of terms and "stuff", check
            it out!
    
                                                           Bye,
                                                            Mike.

I noticed something rather interesting the other day.

If I type DOOM to run Doom II, it displays v1.666 on the title bar of the
'boot' screen.

If I type DOOM2 to run Doom II, it displays v1.7 on the title bar of the
'boot' screen.

This is apparently significant, since if I try to use the command:
    doom -devparm -timedemo demo1
it doesn't work saying that the "demo1 is not compatible with this version of
Doom".  But if I type
    doom2 -devparm -timedemo demo1
it works.

I would hastly assume that modooming would be affected by this 'feature' as
well.

- jeff

    
    Does anyone know if doom2 uses the fp coprocessor? Doom1?
    thanks,
    jeff

> Does anyone know if doom2 uses the fp coprocessor? Doom1?

Doom/Doom2 are 100% integer :-)


- jeff

    re:-1
    
    Thanks, thats what I thought.
    jeff

    
    doom2 v1.666
    
    ast pentium-60, vlb video, 256k cache, 32 meg memory
    
    dos (fat): 35.04 fps
    nt (ntfs): 16.22 fps

    Cheers - updating now :-)

    
    	How do you figure out fps?
    
    	Thanks in advance.
    
    						Scott.
    

> How do you figure out fps?

run doom (or doom2) via:

    doom -devparm -timedemo demo1 -nosound

When it finishes, it'll kick you back out to dos with an output that looks
like:

    Gameticks: XXXX   Realticks: YYYY

Now compute your frames/second via:

    35* XXXX / YYYY  =  ZZ.Z frames per second



- jeff

    Whilst we're on the subject:
    
    486dx2.66 8Meg PCI 256kCache
    
    Doom  : 21.06ish
    Doom2 : 17.96ish
    
    Ask me again On Monday when I'm in a fit state to reply.

    re a few notes back soemone gave fps for running on NT, how did you
    get Doom II running on NT, I thought NT's Dos was 286 emulation?  Hmm,
    I'll have to see about installing Doom II on out Alpha 2100 running
    NT :-)  190Mhz chip :-)
    
    Mark
    

    
    i was running doom under NT on an intel box.  the problem is that the
    alpha only does 286 emulation.
    

    
    well, i think i have a new laptop record.  it COULD have been better
    but i cant figure out how to stop the drive from spinning down even
    with all power saver features disabled....
    
    system:
    
    ast ascentia 900n
    486/75dx4
    1 meg pc video
    no idea about cache
    16 meg memory
    
    25.62fps
    

    But if NT's Dos emulation is 286, how come Doom works on it, I thought
    it was 386 or higher needed?
    
    Mark

    I think he said *Alpha's* emulation was only 286, not Windows NT on an
    Intel chip...?

    re.146
    
    Which Doom? 1 or 2?

    I see, missed that bit, damn, another great plan bites the dust.
    
    I hope MS get their fingers out and get a decent emulation of DOS, it
    can't be that difficult
    
    Mark
    

    
    the problem is not with microsoft anything, it's with DEC's
    implementation of the Alpha chip.  The 286 limitations are ALL on the
    Alpha.  As soon as we make an Alpha chip that emulates an intel chip in
    386+ mode, Doom will run.  We ALMOST got a native mode version for
    Alpha, but the load of the machine to Id fell thru.  I would HATE to
    see the fps ratings on that!  :').  There is a native mode for SGI,
    anybody want to try on an Onyx??  :') :')
    

    I see, I thought it was NT that did the emulation, ie software
    emulation, I thought that was how emulation worked, the software
    interpreted OS calls into ALPHA calls, oh well, wrong, yet again
    
    Mark

> the problem is not with microsoft anything, it's with DEC's implementation
> of the Alpha chip.  The 286 limitations are ALL on the Alpha.  As soon as we
> make an Alpha chip that emulates an intel chip in 386+ mode, Doom will run.

say wha ?

80*86 emulation is in software (the OS), not on the silicon.  I'm not sure
what's a secret and what's not, so I can't elaborate.  But I guess it's safe
to say that we *are* working on it... :-)

Now if they'd listen to me and make a multichip CPU set -- say a flip-chip
piggyback arrangement with Intel translator and 2nd level cache on the flipped
chip -- which could translate Intel code -> Alpha RISC code in hardware at the
I-cache level rather than burdening the entire system with some archaic
routine, then we'd be getting somewhere!  

Hmmmm ... anyone got 10 million bux?


- jeff_you_can_say_I'm_a_dreamer,_but_I'm_not_the_only_one

    
    	Doom I v1.666
    
    	Venturis prototype 466, 8meg ram
    
    	Dos: 36.49fps
    
    							Scott.
    

    Whaaaaaaaaaaa?!
    
    You wanna give us the low-down on this helluva machine you got there,
    please, Scott ?! Does the 466 mean it's a 486DX2-66 ?!?!

    
    	Thats what it is.  I can only assume it has your basic
    	cache (how can I figure out what it really has?), it
    	doesn't have any fancy video cards. 
    
    	I assume I did my math correctly: Gameticks:1077 Realticks:1033
    
    								Scott.
    

    It might say how much cache it has on startup, but even then....
    standard video card?! Surely not?! Errrmm.... has it been clock
    quadrupled or something?! Maybe you just have exceedingly thin tracks
    in your motherboard and CPU, so the electricity can go faster, etc etc
    
    ;-]

    
    	What ever video comes standard on the mother board
    	is what it has.  As far as I know, the clock is
    	doubled.  This is a prototype from Taiwan, maybe
    	it has something that the production Venturis don't
    	have.
    
    						Scott.
    

    There's some pretty serious hardware in that box, I'd say. Hold on, let
    me look in the PC conference to see what we're talking about :-).....

Digital venturis
================
On-board SVGA (Trio64)

SIS 85c471 chipset

--> 68Mb RAM

5x ISA slots

Phoenix BIOS version V4.0X with Plug & Play 1.0a compliant

Main Memory speed used by the System - 70ns

On-board SVGA Function - Using S3 Trio64 chipset, support video
port and feature connector.

On-board: one enhanced VL IDE, one ISA IDE interface supporting
up to four devices

SL Enhance 80486dx2(50, 66 MHz)

8 Kbyte Code and Data Cache(first level) - onchip

128k cache

Graphics comparable to VLB, 1Mb of 60ns DRAM.

===================

The rest of the document is giving me a headache. Hmmm...
looks like an average 486DX2-66. That's an amazing fps!
Well done!

(P.S. These are the *standard* specs)

Dan

    
    for a better explanation of Alpha 286 emulation, this probably isnt the
    conference and I don't really know any more than I stated, but I
    think DEC did the emulation code (that I guess is part of NT) for the
    Alpha.  
    
    PS, the guy with the mega numbers on a 486/66... unreal!  But that was
    DOOM I not DOOM II, that's a diffferent note :').  THe benchmarks for
    DOOM I are faster than II, but that's still unreal for that machine.
    

    Re -.afewback,
    
    well I'm glad to see my idea of emulation "is" software based, so it is
    really Microsoft's problem then?  If DEC did it, surely it was to MS
    specs.  But I agree it is for another conference, which I probably not
    be bothered to subscribe to :-)
    
    Mark

    
    i dont think microsoft is losing any sales cause nt for alpha only does
    286 emulation.   :') :')
    

    Why is there all this interest in graphics boards and Doom
    performance?  I have what is arguable the slowest DOS card
    on the planet (Matrox Ultima 2+) and Doom1/2 runs fine.
    Flight Simulator is another story.  Kratz

Re a few back

Is the incredibly high fps on the venturis with full screen set????????? 
I can't believe a DXII 66 can run THAT fast!! 
If it is full screen where can I buy this mother*&%$�.


Stuart

    
    	I ran it the way I was told.  If anyone wants to come
    	to MRO1 to check it out, be my guest. :^)
    
    	Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it's an Alta machine.
    	I don't know what the difference is between that and
    	a regular Venturis.
    
    							Scott.
    
    				

    If the conference wants to club together for the air fair I'll go and
    verify this :-)
    
    Mark

    So was it FULL screen then Scott, ie no status bar at the bottom?
    
    Greg with a slower P60 :^(

> If anyone wants to come to MRO1 to check it out, be my guest. :^)

Local bus on-motherboard SVGA graphics... prototype...  hmmm...

I gotta see this system!


- jeff_in_HLO

    
    	Actually, I think its VGA not "S".  
    
    						Scott.
    

    Really? I would have thought, to be honest, it would be SVGA.... what
    with being local bus, 1Mb and fairly recent....
    
    Oh well.... time to repost the rankings, I guess....

    Guys, I don't believe this! I fiddled around with my BIOS settings last
    night, and changed my memory wait state (it was on 1 !!). Changed it to
    zero (0) and Doom on my lowly 486DX33 now whizzes along at 14.05 fps!!
    
    Waaaaahhhhheeyyyyyyyy!
    
    Dan

    DEC pc XL566 32Mb Stealth Viper PCI card cache unknown doom2 = 39.08fps
    
    Wahay, our group has 2 of em, network doom hoorah!!
    
    Mark

    
    
    Greeeattt    
    
     network doom - lets gettiton
    
    
    Gary

    
    re: .172  that was for doom 1, youre in the doom 2 note :')
    
    BUT, since you were looking for someone to beat you, no problem...
    
    Compaq 486/33 Deskpro/M
    1meg EISA Qvision 1024 graphics card
    12 meg memory
    Doom 1 v1.2
    cache ????
    
    16.76
    
    Have a nice Christmas!!  :')
    

    If I move the mouse before a save is complete the system hangs. This must
  be a 'feature' as it happened on my 'old' machine too.

	- Bob

    
    
      System: 4866DX2 66MHZ 8MB 256k cache
              VESA graphics controller, 1MB DRAM
    
      DOOM V1.2 Graphic Detail: HIGH, Full Screen, Sound ON:   22.8 FPS
    
      DOOM V1.2 Graphic Detail: HIGH, Full Screen, Sound OFF:  25.2 FPS
    
    
    bc

    
    	I went and bought doomII and I borrowed some extra
    	RAM to through in the Alta, I get 24.038 fps
    	with 20mb.
    
    							Scott.
    

    
    	I reinstalled the 4mb simm and I get slightly better
    	performance.  24.2 fps with 8mb.
    
    						Scott.
    

    
      System: Pentium 90MHZ 8MB 256k cache
              PCI graphics controller, 500k DRAM
    
      DOOM V1.666 Graphic Detail: HIGH, Normal Screen, Sound OFF:   37.17 FPS
    

    Ok...now that my intro's out of the way, a question: How can I improve
    the preformance of DOOM on my system, config & test results as follows:
    
    	DEC(Tandy) 386/33
    	VGA	
    	8MB memory	
    	PAS16 sound card
    	No known video card
    	Running DOS 6.22
    
    	FPS results using the Doom -devparm -timedemo demo1 -nosound
    	
    				DOOM V0.99	DOOM V1.666
    				----------	-----------
    	my "normal" screen      11.77		6.9
    	
    	w/full screen (no	6.3 (!)		7.18 
    	status bar)
    
        (DOOM V0.99 took a performance hit at full screen...I used the same
    	params listed above. Should I have done something different? Also,
    	in the V0.99 demo, my character would do stuff like spin in
    	circles, walk into and shoot walls, and other stupid stuff. Is this
    	normal for the demo? FWIW, it doesn't happen while I play.)
    
    	As much as I prefer V1.666 to 0.99, I can barely tolerate the
    	jerkiness, so I wind up playing V0.99 much of the time. 
    
    	Is there anything I can do, short of a h/w upgrade, to improve
    	performance? (i.e. tweak the SETUP, or change certain menu options,
    	do something to DOS, etc.)
    
    	Finally, someone mentioned creating a 'bare boot disk' (or some such
    	thing) that allows all system resources to be devoted to the game.
    	Can someone explain this procedure to me (in idiot-proof language)?
    	
        Freddie
    	
    	

    .02 follows:
    Doom is dependent mainly on CPU, although DOS video performance
    is also important.  A crappy DOS video card in a Pentium
    (ex: my setup with a Matrox card) is fine, but a fast DOS video
    (ex: Stealth64) in a 386 isn't going to cut it.  Therefore,
    worry about the 386/33 first.  There isn't much you can do as
    far as tuning your existing setup.
    
    There's as many upgrade opinions as there are upgrade paths.
    Cyris makes a "486" for 386 pinouts, which would help.  So does
    IBM.  You could go with a new motherboard, although there are
    some peculiarities with the physical dimensions of the Tandy
    motherboard and floppy interface.  The most expensive but
    most satisfying route is buying a new system box+motherboard.
    Kratz

    
    -1
    
    
    what options do I have with a Decstation200   286/candle powered 
    system ?.
    
    
    Gary 

    The Bin
    =======
    
    Large receptacle normally located in some side passage of the location
    in question. Holds all unwanted items viewed as useless, worthless or
    not economically viable.
    
    In short, your machine is at the best it's ever gonna get. Upgrade is
    not a suitable option. Stick with it for now, and save up for a new
    system. Honest.
    
    :-[

    
    :')  which level of doom is 'The Bin'
    
    

> :')  which level of doom is 'The Bin'

"Circle [shaped vessel] of Destruction" ???

:-)


    

    
    Well at least I bought a smile to a few faces.......
    
    
    

    re: .181
    
    Freddie,
    
    Don't be afraid to muck about with your BIOS, specifically the BUS
    CLOCK SPEED and your CACHE and RAM Wait States. Make a note of your
    current settings first so you can undo anything if it fails to work
    (duh  ;'} ).
    
    Generally it pays to reduce your Wait States to the minimum allowable,
    if your system still works your accessing the Cache and RAM as fast as
    is possible.
    
    A friend of mine recently almost doubled his system performance by
    setting the BUS CLOCK SPEED (I'm talking AMIBIOS here - not familiar
    with others) to the correct rate for his CPU. The default was wrong!!
    
    The conference NOTED::IBMPC-95 topic number 1681 goes into great depth
    for those of us with AMIBIOS, check it out.
    
    Your spinning-round-in-circles-shooting-at-the-walls phenomenon is most
    likely due to a v1.666 demo playing in a v0.9 map. The player tries to
    walk through a door that isn't there and he's all out of sorts with the
    map. The sprite still follows the programming; walk at this speed for
    so long in that direction, turn so many degrees fire twice etc. it just
    doesn't relate to the map. This is likely to give uncomparable results
    as the amount of things happening on the screen is going to be
    different as is the point of expiring.
    
    Welcome aboard anyway Freddie, may you have many late nights and
    screaming night-mares.
    
    Nikc.

    Sorry, that IBMPC-95 topic number should be 1092 !
    
    Nick.

    Nick,
    
    thanks for the pointer...I've extracted the note & replies, and will
    read it this week for a possible solution. I don't know much about DOS
    or the BIOS (or about PC's in general for that matter), but I'm not
    afraid to muck around. (P.S. it's in IBMPC-94, not -95)
    
    BTW, while playing DOOM yesterday (at the difficulty level just below 
    NIGHTMARE), I noticed a marked performance hit after I finished the 5th 
    building and entered the 6th building. Anything special about this bldg that
    makes it 'jerkier' than the previous ones? Graphics don't appear to be
    significantly more detailed, nor do the monsters appear to be significantly
    more numerous...Curiouser & curiouser.
    
    Thanks again...
    
    Freddie

    Hmmm  by 6th building I'm assuming you mean Episode 1 Map 6 (E1M6)
    Central Processing. Immaterial really 'cos I can't remember that far
    back.
    
    If there arent extra monsters it may just be that there are extra
    "things" in your field of vision i.e. ammo and health packs or barrels,
    candles, impaled humans and such like. Also when creating WADS I've
    noticed that a significant drop in performance can be a clue to a
    "walk through" wall being somewhere ahead. However I don't recall there
    being any in episode 1 of DOOM. Try turning on the spot until
    performance increases and then back again, the point when it becomes
    jerky is when the offending culprit is coming into view.
    
    If performance doesn't increase as you turn and your not standing knee
    deep in "things" it may just be that your performance is slow enough to
    be susceptible to things like the number of vertices and invisible
    walls in an area (each time you go up a step, walk through a door or
    walk into an area with a different light level, you have just walked
    through an invisible wall).  :'.
    
    If somebody cares to explain "nodes" and why DOOM2 has more of them
    than DOOM1 I'd be interested to know myself.
    
    Good luck with the tinkering but if your like me you'll crack
    eventually and upgrade to a faster processor.  ):{>
    
    	Nick.                       

    Where did you read that Doom2 has more nodes than Doom1?
    
    The whole 'nodes' caboodle is very complicated but very interesting if
    you like Binary Search trees. There's a FAQ on it somewhere on FLYTE, I
    think..... hold on, let me take a look-see....
    
    Have a read of FLYTE::USER1:[ARCHIVE.DOOM.TEXT]DMSPEC13.TXT for a good
    description, but it helps if you know all about data structures and
    stuff :-)
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    Well I thought I read it in this conference as an explanation for DOOM2
    running slower than DOOM1. Having just done a thorough search on
    "nodes" though I can't find the reference.
    
    I must have my wires crossed or I read it in a FAQ of dubious origin.
    
    I have a superficial understanding of Binary Search trees and how they
    divide sectors into subsectors and what have you but I'll pull DMSPEC13
    anyway, thanks.
    
    
    So why is DOOM2 slower?  (=o\
    
    	Nick.

    5 reasons why I reckon Doom2 is slower...
    
    1)	V.1666 was always slower than early versions, even though Id
        claimed it was quicker.
    
    2)  Doom2 does admitedly have more objects than Doom1
    
    3)	Doom2's textures in general seem to be more complicated
    
    4)	Doom2's level designs are more 'arty-farty' and less 'let's get
        down to business' than Doom1 - which means lots of linedefs, hence more
        calculations.
    
    5)	...hence the WAD is bigger, hence more disk operations, hence
        slower also.
    
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    Although DOOM 2 is undoubtedly slower, I've noticed that a bigger CPU is
    used more efficiently by DOOM2 than DOOM1. In other words, the bigger
    the CPU, the smaller the difference between the two versions. I
    already have a series of benchmarks to back this assertion up, and I
    hope to run the last one tonight. When the figures are ready, I'll post
    them.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Ok, here're my stats. I've broken them down by CPU and video card. Note
    that the DX2-66 is actually a DX2-80 on a crappy m/b running at 33Mhz
    with 128K cache. The Trident card (T) is a cheapo 1meg SVGA VLB card,
    and the S3 (S) is a cheapo 1meg SVGA VLB card. The DX2-80 is running on
    a good m/b at 40Mhz, with a 256K cache.
    
    		SX25(T)	DX66(T)	DX66(S)	DX80(T)	DX80(S)
    
    DOOM1	10.70	22.02	25.93	22.94	27.40
    DOOM2	 8.15	16.78	22.37	21.29	25.70
    
    Several conclusions can be drawn from that lot with respect to CPU and
    video, but basically, Dan can take the last column as my entry for the
    performance league! All-in-all, I think it's interesting to have been
    able to test all those combinations whilst upgrading my machine. It's
    clear to me that in DOOM2 the CPU makes a lot more difference than it
    did on DOOM1.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    re: .196
    
    Indeed, it's interesting to note the varying improvement to the
    "benchmarks" - that the ~21% faster DX80 shows over the DX66:
    
                    DX80 v. DX66(T)   DX80 v. DX66(S)
    		    ---------------   ---------------
        DOOM1          + 4.2%		 + 5.7%
        DOOM2          +26.9%		 +14.9%
    
    The DOOM2 numbers with the Trident stick out as an anomoly of some
    sort...
    

    Well, it's obvious that disk performance affects Doom Performance. My
    figures:
    
    System is P60, PCI video, 16mb RAM:
    
    Old 120mb IDE drive : 27.56 FPS
    RZ26 SCSI on Adaptec: 29.30 FPS
    
    Now I reckon if I had an EIDE drive, (supported on my mboard) these FPS
    figures would go higher.
    
    What do other Pentium users have in the way of disk?
    
    cheers,
    
    Greg

    I get 39.11 fps using an Intel MB with P90 + 256k e/cache. 16mb Ram, an 
    Diamond Stealth PCI 64 with 4megs-o-Vram. Disk is Seagate 540 Eide.
    
    Seems more ram would make it quicker. Wonder if a 20 meg ram drive with
    the whole caboodle running from that would up it much.
    
    paul

    Acting on suggestions from the PC conference and Internet, I clocked my
    DX2-80 as a DX4-100 and ran DOOM2 all night with no apparent ill
    effects. It seems I now have a DX4-100!
    
    I have a DOOM fps figure for a Trident (20% faster), and I'm awaiting
    delivery of my very own S3 clone 1meg DRAM card. When it arrives
    (hopefully later today), I'll test it, and update my note with the new
    figures.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Hmm, wonder if I should overclock my p60 to a p66?

    
    -1, -2
    
    howdyaupthespeedthen ?
    
    
    
    

    You find a jumper on the motherboard and move it!
    
    ie if your running a 25/50/75, you move the jumper from 25 to 33, then
    your running a 33/66/100.
    
    Simple, dangerous - maybe?

    Dan,
    
    My motherboard has (amongst others) the following jumpers:
    
    VLB speed (25/33/40/50)
    Chip type (Intel/AMD/Cyrix/P24)
    Chip speed (x1/x2/x3)
    Chip voltage (3.3/5)
    
    Pretty simple really!
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Re: .200

    Acting on suggestions from the PC conference and Internet, I clocked my
    DX2-80 as a DX4-100 and ran DOOM2 all night with no apparent ill
    effects. It seems I now have a DX4-100!
    
Not really, since a DX2-80 is a clock-doubling chip and a DX4-100 is a
clock-tripling chip.  What you really have is a DX2-100.

    Re .201
    
    I have overclocked my P60 to 66Mhz and have noticed an improvement. 
    I would definetly recommend this as any reduction in the lifespan of
    the processor is irrelevant due to the speed at which the processors
    are outdated themselves. You will probably have replaced the processor
    with the next generation before you would encounter any problems caused
    by electromigration, etc.
    
    Just make sure that you have a good heatsink/fan assembly.
    
    George.
    

RE:       <<< Note 138.205 by NOVA::GENTZEL "Listen to the Flower People" >>>

� Not really, since a DX2-80 is a clock-doubling chip and a DX4-100 is a
� clock-tripling chip.  What you really have is a DX2-100.
    
    No I haven't; I suspect you're not clear on how these things work. In
    order to have a DX2-100, I'd need to run my m/b at 50mhz. I wrote this
    in .204:
    
�    My motherboard has (amongst others) the following jumpers:
�    
�    VLB speed (25/33/40/50)
�    Chip type (Intel/AMD/Cyrix/P24)
�    Chip speed (x1/x2/x3)
�    Chip voltage (3.3/5)
    
    I have my m/b running at 33Mhz, chip type of AMD, Chip speed of x3, and
    chip voltage of 3.3. The BIOS reports a DX4 at 100Mhz.
    
    In other words, my motherboard is telling the chip how fast to go, not
    the other way round.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Well I overclocked my P60 to P66 and ran for around 12 hours non-stop
    with no problems :^) Increased my Doom FPS ratings as well :^)))
    

    My doom2 FPS in '-Timedemo demo2' is 43.44 FPS on my overclocked P60 , 
    8MB , PCI Video, 256K Cache. This seems too fast !!! as the chart on 
    143.1 has numerous P90's with lower results ?????
    
    I also tried '-Timedemo demo1' which gave a result of 39.25 FPS.....
    
    George.
    

    Did you have the screen set full size?
    
    Did you have detail setting on 'high' ?

    BTW Full screen means NOTHING on the bottom line, no health display,
    all you should be able to see is a hand holding a gun.
    

    It's was FULL screen and I *think* that the detail level was high as
    that is how I normally run the game anyway. I'll double check again
    tonight...
    
    The demo which was played was the one with the lowering floors along 
    the wall and the open area in the middle (where you finally die).
    
    I certaintly looks like 43 FPS as the whole thing moves amazingly fast.
    
    George.

    Just to double check :
    
    To get your FPS you multiply the 1st number by 35 then divide by the 
    2nd number ??????
    

    re .212
    
    What's the motherbaord in your PC ? Sounds pretty damm good.

    My motherboard has (amongst others) the following jumpers:
    
    VLB speed (25/33/40/50)
    Chip type (Intel/AMD/Cyrix/P24)
    Chip speed (x1/x2/x3)
    Chip voltage (3.3/5)
    
    I have my m/b running at 33Mhz, chip type of AMD, Chip speed of x3, and
    chip voltage of 3.3. The BIOS reports a DX4 at 100Mhz.
    
    In other words, my motherboard is telling the chip how fast to go, not
    the other way round.

One of us us confused, but I'm not sure if it's me or you :-).

If you have an AMD DX2-80, it *CANNOT* be run clock-tripled.  It lacks the
circuitry to do the internal 3x clock generation.

What you are doing with the jumper is telling your motherboard that you have
a clock-tripled CPU.  That's all.

Forgive me if this is wrong, but this is my understanding.  Anyone else want
to correct either of us?

Dave

> If you have an AMD DX2-80, it *CANNOT* be run clock-tripled.  It lacks the
> circuitry to do the internal 3x clock generation.

According to the folks in the IBMPC-95 notes conference, the 3.3v DX2/80 and
DX4/100 are the same silicon, and the chip somehow can measure the external
clock speed and adjust the internal clock accordingly (by PLL?).

I'm going to get a hold of a friend at AMD and see if this is true...

::BROWNL, do you have Doom performance #'s for the DX2/80 (jumper at 40MHz)
and "DX4/100" (jumber at 30MHz)?


- jeff_won't_believe_it_until_he_sees_it_:-)

    On a side note (and this is echoed in IBMPC-95) I upped my motherboard
    speed on my 486DX33 to 40MHz last night to see the difference.
    
    It took all of 5 minutes. Everything worked a treat, no problems. Ran
    the obligatory Doom FPS test.
    
    486DX33 @ 33MHz, 4Mb, IDE, 1Mb GLD5428 Cirrus	14.05fps
    486DX33 @ 40MHz,  "    "    "     "      "		16.18fps
    
    Cripes! I'm keeping this!
    
    I installed a large fan blowing over the heatsink of the chip, wired up
    to a spare hard disc power cable, and it all works a treat. Anyone see
    a reason why I should change this back?!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    Well , I went home and checked my setup last night and sure enough the 
    detail was set at low. I re-ran with high detail and got 29.03 FPS.....
    
    So all you guy's with P90's who were going to slash their wrists can
    put your razors away !!!!
    
    BTW, The difference in detail between high and low does not justify
    such a drop in FPS IMO.

    >> I re-ran with high detail and got 29.03 FPS
    
    Heh, now start tuning, I got 29 with my p60 running at 60, when I upped
    it to p66, I think i got around 32-33, I'll check tonight.
    
    Greg

    Haha! *justice* !!

RE:           <<< Note 138.216 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "Mail Order Wives" >>>
    
� ::BROWNL, do you have Doom performance #'s for the DX2/80 (jumper at 40MHz)
� and "DX4/100" (jumber at 30MHz)?
    
    Yes, but only for the Trident card, my S3 clone is still "arriving".
    
    		DX80	DX100
    DOOM1	22.94	25.10
    DOOM2	21.19	23.18
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    PS. Yes, *full* screen and detail high.

Thanks, Laurie.

I believe y'all now! :-)


- jeff_skeptic_at_large

    Well here's my performance info on my p60 overclocked to 66, with 256k
    cache, 16mb memory, Orchid Kelvin 64 PCI video card. I'll submit the
    34.95 figure ;^)
    
    Doom 1, full screen, high detail, no sound:
    
    version	fps
    
    1.1		32.65
    1.2		34.95
    1.666	32.07
    1.9		31.92
    
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    So many numbers... could we standardize on just one software
    (i.e. Doom2), one Doom engine (i.e. V1.666), one command line
    (i.e. -nosound -demo1), and one methodology (i.e. full screen,
    normal texture)?  And what *exactly* is the command line?
    Thanks, Kratz

re: .224

We have :-)

The new standard is: 100MHz Pentium, ATI Mach 64 pci 2MB vram...

c:\usr\doom2\Doom2 -devparm -timedemo demo1 -nosound  =  39.3
c:\usr\doom\Doom -devparm -timedemo demo1 -nosound  =  42.24

(doom v1.666, doom2 v1.7, full screen, high detail)

- jeff

Well, maybe except for ::JENNINGS' Celebris 590 ... but we gotta check his
detail setting and make sure there's no status bar...

- jeff

    There are quite a few strange results in the performance chart.

    re.223
    
    >>I'll submit the 34.95 figure ;^)
    Pfaa! I'm take the v1.666 one in the interests of peace and harmony :-)
    
    Cripes! What did I just say?! In the DOOM conference?! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    I understood it was demo1 for DOOM1 and demo2 for DOOM2; I hope so
    because the FPS figures are different for the different demo versions.
    
    Is it time to standardise, and re-run the performance figures?
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    The rules are stated on the first page of each 'official' results
    topic, aren't they?!

    Tell a lie, they're at the end of each table (reply .1).....

Well frag me!!!


- bloody_pulp

    If I had a modem, I'd give it a try matey ;-) !!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

OK, I redid the tests with both demo1 and demo2.  This is with DOOM ][ V1.7, 
Celebris P90 with 512K cache, 40M main memory.  Doom was high detail, full screen.

doom2 -devparm -timedemo demo1 -nosound => 38.8 fps
doom2 -devparm -timedeom demo2 -nosound => 41.8 fps

Okay, this one's for the chart.

Doom2 v1.7 full screen (no status bar), high detail.  P-100, 256k, ATI Mach64
pci 2MB vram...

doom2 -devparm -timedemo demo2 -nosound  =  42.06  (2001/1665*35)



- jeff_redeeming_himself_from_bloody_pulp_staus

Not a record breaker, but not bad.

Doom2 v1.7 full screen (no status bar), high detail.  

486DX2-66, 8MB, VLB, 256k cache, 2MB vram.

doom2 -devparm -timedemo demo2 -nosound  =  22.47

Dan

    Ok, pardon my [continued] ignorance, but is V1.7 the only engine
    for Doom2, or is it an upgrade to V1.666?
    
    Thanks for the command line syntax.  If I didn't think I'd get in
    trouble, I'd post results for a 120Mhz P5, burst cache system with
    unnamed graphics card; you folks are way too slow ;-)  Kratz
    

    Doom 2 started out at 1.666, but I think new release of it are 1.7 "in
    the box". I presume the very latest copies coming out of Id are 1.9....

    
    Doom ][ went
    
    1.666  released version
    1.7    released version
    1.7a   patch, maybe some got it as released version
    1.8 patch followed quickly by patch to
    1.9    patch.
    
    I seem to remember that 1.7 was the last patch ID was ever going to do
    :^)

> I seem to remember that 1.7 was the last patch ID was ever going to do :^)

Yeah, they were also saying that about 1.666 as I recall...

"But then again, we could be lying" was their all too common tagline :-)


- jeff

> If I didn't think I'd get in trouble, I'd post results for a 120Mhz P5,
> burst cache system with unnamed graphics card; you folks are way too slow
> ;-) Kratz

Okay, I'll call you on this one.

Let's see yer numbers!

:-)


- jeff
    

    
    re: .233
    
    if youre running tcp/ip, give iFrag a shot and then you dont need a
    modem!  kill your friends over the network :').
    

    With appropriate humility, I herewith post the results of the very first 
    DOOM "performance" run on my latest home-brewed beastie (which drew it's 
    first breath this week):
    
    
    			DOOM 1.2	55.12 whatevers
    
    
    (Full Detail/Full Screen/No Sound/F5 Boot/Demo1 = it's legitimate, bubs! ;^)
    
    
    System details:  	P54C/100 
    			ASUS PCI/I-P54TP4 m/b
    		     	256KB cache
    		     	Intel Triton chipset
    		     	ATI Graphics Pro Turbo w/2MB VRAM
    			64MB memory
    			10ms EIDE drives
    
    
    With a bit of tweaking (and the cache upgrade kit that's on order) I 
    might even get this critter to do 60! ;^)
    
    /dave 

    Superb! I'll update the scores but I'd be interested to see what it
    goes like on DOOM V1.666 (you cheating get ;-) !!!) !!!
    
    Nice one.
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

Welp, I know *MY* next upgrade....

:-)

- jeff

    Ran the DOOM ][ "benchmark", and the figure of merit is:
    
    			      (drum roll, please)
    

    
    				     47.61 fps
    
    
    Same P5/100, 256KB cache, 64MB, ATI GPT PCI w/2MB VRAM
    
    		DOOM2 -devparm -timedemo demo2 -nosound  (V1.7 engine)
    
    btw: I tried all kinds of experiments including installing the whole
    DOOM2 kit onto a 20Mb ramdrive and running it from there, or running
    from the hard drive and using 2MB, 4MB, 8MB, and 16MB disk caches, and 
    the best numbers are from a clean (F5) boot...
    
    fwiw: the doom2/demo1 score was 44.17 - and watching these demo's makes
    me *much* more queasy than when I actually play the games (don't think I
    could watch the demo's run one more time - brrrrrrrupppp 8^O)
    
    /dave

    Well this is off the topic, but anywayz I have a DECpc 325P and its
    internal speaker isn't on and I haven't the foggiest idea how to get it
    back on. Any suggestions will be taken gladly.
      -Andy

    Is this the PC with a volume slider on the front? If so, put this fully
    UP.
    
    After that, in the DOOM directory is a SETUP program (type SETUP) and
    this allows you to set sound options, one of them being to the internal
    speaker. Ensure this is set so.
    
    Failing this, and still no sound from the speaker, either you have a
    duff speaker, someone has disconnected the wires inside, or else there
    is some sort of BIOS setting to disable it (don't know if this is for
    certain).
    
    Good luck!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    Well the PC setting in Doom is on so thats not it. Also it doesn't have
    a volume slider. What I need are the keyys to push when the computer
    boots to go  into the Bios thing. Most computers say what to hit when
    booting, but this one is an exception. By the way this is a Laptop.
      -Andy

    I've a DECpc 433sx here and it requires a boot disk in order to get to
    the BIOS set up. From there though, one select any volume level from
    the internal speaker.
    
    Check with your local PC administrator if needs such a disk.
    
    Paul

    Here is a new one for all of you. I have a file on my H drive called
    dblspace.000 and it is HUGE. I wanna put Doom 2 on there, but I'm not
    sure if it's safe to delete the file. Anyone know anything about this?
    By the way it's a 106 meg file.
       Andy 
      PS: Thanx to all for the help with the speaker problem

    
    well.....  the obvious question is, do you use doublespace, stacker,
    drivespace, etc?
    
    

    Well here's the first instalement of my new system tests:
    
       Processor	486DX/4-100
       RAM		16MB 
       Cache		256K
       Graphics		Western Digital VLB (40 quid - bottom of the range)
    
    And the test results for DOOM2 -devparm -timedemo demo2 -nosound
    with full screen, high detail and F5 boot are:
    
       2001 gametics, 2521 realtics, giving.............27.78 fps
    
    That places me 9th on the old score board and best for a 486DX4 (VLB).
    
    BEWARE: I will be changing my Graphics Card this week for a Diamond
    Stealth 2MB VRAM.......HA.HA.HA (evil cackles and lightning crashes)
    
    Cheers,
    
    Shaun$bloody_big_ead

    re: .251
    
    Um, that dblspace.000 is your "C" drive - while "H" is the "host" for
    "C"...So unless you're into self-abuse, DON'T mess with the
    dblspace.000 file...
    
    I don't use any disk compression (like dblspace, drvspace, stacker,
    etc) so I don't know if DOOM (1 or 2) will run from a compressed drive
    or not. There shouldn't be any harm in trying though - just install the
    files from your kit to the "C" drive and run the setup proggie. 
    
    If it doesn't work, *and* you have enough space on the uncompressed
    "host" drive (ie: "H") just blow away the stuff installed on "C" and
    repeat the install to the "H" drive...
    
    /dave

    Just FYI, I have Doom/DoomII/Heretic running on a compressed drive with
    no problems.  It doesn't care where it runs from.
    
    Litz

    Update of note .253
    
    Well the Diamond Stealth card came yesterday so i chucked it in last
    night and re-did the Doom II test.
    
    	35.70 fps
    
    Thankyou, Thankyou, please send my King of 486's Crown (and a few pentiums)
    via The Post (if you have one big enough).
    
    Interesting to see the difference the card made - we were expecting an
    fps of around the 32-33 mark. So all you people who havn't yet got a
    DS64, run to the shops tomorrow shouting "Give it to me now!"
    
    Cheers, Shaun$Beat_That!

    Now if you'd just get us some Doom (1) figures I can officially anounce
    you champion of the DX4's ....!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    RE: .256
    
    Grrrr!

    Doom I figures will be available Tuesday (i've the day off Monday).
    
    Shaun$laughing_all_the_way_to_the_coronation

    Super. Thanks.
    
    ;-)
    
    Dan

    Guess that's kinda final definete proof that the Diamond card, is THE
    card for DOS.

    Yeah, I'm already saving up!
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    How much are they ?
    

    
         Well,
    
         I've finally calculated my DOOM & DOOM II fps, here they are
            for the record...
    
         System: Acer P90 w/256k L2 cache
                 16Meg
                 4x Mitsumi CD-Rom
                 540M HD
                 Acer 17" monitor
                 Diamond Stealth 64 2M VRAM PCI video card
                 SBPro w/100watt amp. speakers.
    
         DOOM    v1.8   shareware: 40.11 fps
                 v1.666 shareware: 39.68
    
         DOOM II v1.7a           : 37.96
    
    
         What a difference from ~1-2 fps on a 386/16...
    
                                                            Bye,
                                                             Mike.
    

    Interesting - I think I'll upgrade to 1.8 and see what performance
    difference I get too !
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    RE: a few back.
    
    The DS 64 2meg VRAM is about 240 quid, depending on source. It usually
    pays to shop around.
    
    Laurie.

    Got mine,
     ASUS P54TP4 100 mhz 586.
     16 meg of ram
     no cache :'(
     # 9 GXE 1mb pci video.
     46.04 frames per second Doom2
    
    doom2 -devparam -timedemo demo2 -nosound
    
    							Ed
     

    Yup, second place it is!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    Get some cache ED!!!!!
    
    
    A P100 with no cache is kinda criminal!!

    re: .267
    
    How'd you manage to get that mainboard *without cache*? 
    
    /dave

re:-.1
 
        Actually I got it with the 512k cache upgrade. The Tech upgraded the 
     cache but forgot the (controler chip?), you know, the short one. :')
     Anyhow, it wasn't working with the cache enabled. So I had to disable
     it in bios.
     It's fixed now.
    
 Updated !

     ASUS P54TP4 100 mhz 586.
     16 meg of ram
     512k Cache
     # 9 GXE 2mb pci video.
     50.01 frames per second Doom2
     Univbe51 driver. (haven't tried without it yet).     
     
        
    doom2 -devparam -timedemo demo2 -nosound

 Funny when I added the extra 1mg video it actually slowed it down abit (-.03).


                                                       Ed
    

    
    Well, I've just taken delivery of a new PC, so I guess I'll post my new
    performance stats:
    
    Doom v1.2      60.06 fps
    Doom ][ v1.666 45.01 fps (I'll have to work on that one)
    
    How did I manage to get those stats ?
    
    Here's the system I just had delivered :
    
    P5 120 Mhz
    16Meg EDO ram
    256k cache
    ATI Mach 64 with 2Mb VRAM
    1GB IDE Western Digital HD
    17" Monitor
    
    ...and a bl**dy stacking (3 tray) bl**dy 4x CD bl**dy Rom, that since
    delivery on friday hasn't worked !!! You'd have thought they would have
    tested it a little bit :-(
    
    Jonathan

    Cccc-ripes!

    Back to mortalsville....
    
    DECpc LPv466 S3 805 VLB (onboard) 256k cache 8Meg 256k Smrtdrv
    Doom1 v1.2 demo1 -nosound, detail high, full screen(no status)
    1667 gameticks 2179 realticks =26.78 fps
    
    Seems about par for the course.
    Matt.            

    Have you tried dropping the Smartdrive? Might improve things slightly.
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    It runs fine for me, The config is my universal games menu selection and
    works for everything I've got....As it took some time to get a 
    stable config that works for everything (so far) and I don't have a
    prob with the performance (except in modem) I may try my skeleton boot
    and see if it makes any diff but I wasn't concerned about it
    Ta for the suggestion though....
    
    Matt.

    Scanning thru your performance chart Greg, and it looks very much
    like not all are playing by the same rules!
    There are differences between simmilar types of machines that could
    be explained by tuning/speed of graphics card etc. But there are some
    that are a teensy bit hard to believe!
    Eg if I run the demo with the default (first level of border) I get 
    over 40, and with the status in view at the bottom of the screen
    I get over 30. So I suspect that some have not grasped exactly what
    you mean by "Full Screen, High Detail"/????....
    8^} 
    Matt.

    You'r absolutely right, it's something I've wondered about, and
    stressed many times. I've even mailed people personally, who swear
    these are the figures they are getting with the correct settings, so
    there really is nothing I can do about it, short of getting a flight to
    the US and seeing to believe!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    I can assure you mine were accurate :-)))
    
    (Not that I want to rub it in or anything)
    
    At least that duff CDrom has been sorted out and I can drop-kick that
    dreadful single speed drive that I'v been having to use
    
    Jonathan$p5_120 :-)

    Ahhh yessss, it wasn't your "world record" that I was cocking an
    eyebrow at!!
    Ha Ha
    Matt.

    Hmmm,
    
     I had a status bar at the bottom of mine when I ran it the test...
     The only command line options I used where..
     "doom2 -devparam -timedemo demo2 -nosound"
     So I should've used...
     "doom2 -devparam -timedemo demo2 -nosound, detail high, full screen"?
     Instead????
      
     Ed

>      So I should've used...
>      "doom2 -devparam -timedemo demo2 -nosound, detail high, full screen"?
>      Instead????
 
:-)   No, you have to use the F-keys for toggling high detail and the +/- keys
for screen size.  Hit F1 for the proper key definitions.


- jeff_high_detail_full_screen_always

    Doesn't switching it while it's running throw off the test somewhat?
    Anyhow, I'll do it tonight and repost the corrected results (Sob)...
    :')
    Oh, wait... If I remember correctly if I set it up, then exit, then 
    run the command line, it should keep the definitions shouldn't it?
                                                                      
    Ed
    

    Yes that's it, run the game, expand the screen till there's no status
    bar at the bottom, check that detail is high, then exit and then run
    the timedemo with the -nosound switch ( demo 1 seems to be quicker)
    That should give an accurate result.....
    
    Matt.

I ran the doom2 demo some time back, but never the demo1... so here it
is ... not a record breaker, but up there in the dx2-66 ranges...

Doom1 v1.2 full screen (no status bar), high detail.  

486DX2-66, 8MB, VLB, 256k cache, 2MB vram.

doom -devparm -timedemo demo1 -nosound  =  27.92 fps

Dan

    Okay, (sniff) heres my correct stats (sniff).
    
    100mhz Pent, 512kcache, (pci)gxe64 2mb Dram.
    
    Doom2 V1.666 full screen (no status bar), high detail.
    
    Doom2 -devparm -timedemo demo1 -nosound = 47.41 (2001/1477*35).
    
    
    ed

    
    How am I supposed to calculate the information that is presented at the
    end of the run? I get two sets of numbers and was wanting to see how
    it ran on a 486/50 w/20 megs ram. Give me the formula so I can re-try
    this on Doom2 and Doom1 just to see what this will do.
    
    Mike
    
    

    See 138.22
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    Dan....Dan......DAN! I've finaly got my Doom I fps (did it last
    night....KWOK). Using the same system as for my DOOM II fps I got 39.72
    fps.
    
    Could you therefore enter me in the performance table and award me the
    'BEST 486 GOING' title that I do so deserve ;^)
    
    Shaun

    Raised eyebrow?
    Hmmm perhaps if you run it with a completely full screen with no status
    bar at the bottom, i.e no face etc??????
    
    Matt_sceptically

    I reckon Shaun's time is kosher. He's got a DX4 with EIDE and a DS64
    VRAM (the git).
    
    Laurie.

    Thats right Laurie....and four times more Meg than Dan, Dan the 4meg
    Man.
    
    The demo was as requested in the stats...i.e. full screen, highest
    detail, no sound...etc
    
    So begone to a nunary thy doubting thomas!
    
    Shaun

    A nunary? Hmm I'd have some fun there? 8^)
    Ok Ok so he's an honest man......
    
    Matt_apologeticaly

RE:        <<< Note 138.293 by WOTVAX::ROWEM "Frank Gamballi's Trousers" >>>

�    A nunary? Hmm I'd have some fun there? 8^)
    
    I think Nuash means a "nunnery"
    
    Helpfully, Laurie.

    
    Well, I worked on my Doom ][ timings over the weekend on the p5 120 and
    managed to up the fps (I was running v1.9 before :-S, what a fool)...now
    with v1.666, the fps are up to 47.67
    
    much better :-)
    
    Jonathan

    Celebris XL 120, Stealth64 VRAM, 256k burst:   48.4
    133 in the same Celebris XL:                   53.8 (*)
    Doom2, V1.666, demo2, full screen, max detail, no sound.
    
    (*) chip announced by Intel only
    Kratz
    

> 133 in the same Celebris XL:                   53.8 (*)

Way to go Kratz!  Ya just gotta love it when games are used to benchmark the
new systems in development.  There's hope for us humans yet!

You get a 3d-bench on that system?  (I read that the synch-burst/EDO P-120s
are scoring in the 111 range).  

I'm thinking of taking a tax deduction for the ~$50 I paid for my PC Gamer
subscription...  The folks here in HLO writing drivers for Dagger (21030) and
Mica (unanounced) borrowed my CD's to use the plethora of game demos for
testing/debugging their DOS and Windows video drivers.  The HLO customer demo
room is often used for said "benchmarking/debugging/testing" work on Friday
afternoons... AAMOF they had Descent going on the big screen last Friday.  Had
I known ahead of time, I would've brought in my Thrustmaster gear for some
"value-added development work."  Now there's a cool tax deduction!  :-)


- jeff_gonna_get_soaked_by_Uncle_Sam_
  on_the_1995_taxes_and_thinkin'_of_
  lots_of_good_ways_to_get_'em_to_
  audit_me_:-)

    Interesting point. Its true that there are so many benchmarks on the
    market these days that its diffulcult to really know how well your
    machine performs. Its all very well having a super-dooper pentium but
    if you have a taiwan cheepie graphics cards then you'll get slow screen
    rates. Same if you have a fat hard drive that runs like a snail or a
    single speed CD-ROM when your main application is phot-studio stuff.
    
    The reason why DOOM has become a popular benchmark is that it tests the
    overall performance of your system (bar CD-ROM and HD etc). It would be
    nice if someone could develop a soft that gave you performance indexes
    based on Graphics, HD data transfer, CD datatransfer and overall
    procesing power and then combined them to give you an overall
    performance indx for a particular usage (eg Photo Workshop, Games, DTP,
    Maths & Stats....etc)
    
    Perhapps such a product exists?
    
    Shaun

> Perhapps such a product exists?

Nah... not necessary.  It's simple really.  First, determine how you want to
use your computer.  (DOS Games or WinWord or NT/AutoCAD or all three...)

Next, go find the benchmarks that 1) test what you'll be doing, and 2) are
very commonly used so that there are big databases to compare your current (or
future) machine against.

My suggestions:

Doom and 3d-bench are great for DOS games, where DOS video performance, CPU
performance, and memory bus performance are critical.  But hard-core gamers
should be aware that some of the newest games are being written to take
advantage of S3, Mach64, etc. video accelerators, so in those cases you'll
have to be a little more careful :-)

ZD Labs' Winbench95 is good for winbloze applications, graphics, disk, etc.
tests.

And AutoCAD offers their own benchmark test :-)


- jeff

    Oh, and.....

    I was really hoping that an integrated package would be available to
    test all user scenarios.
    
    shaun

    I've just installed a Diamond Stealth 64 2meg DRAM SVGA VLB card in my
    PC, and here're my revised figures:
    
    AMD 486DX2-80 (over-clocked to DX4-100 but 8k int. cache),
                   70ns 16Mb, 256k ext. cache,
    Diamond Stealth 64 2meg DRAM SVGA VLB
    VLB E-IDE controller, non-cached
    Clean (F5) boot
    
    Doom1 35.16 fps
    Doom2 30.36 fps
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
    All this is probably academic now, seeing as I am upgrading to a DX2-66
    at the weekend but tried all this mularky last night and got a sad
    result that I thought i'd share with you!
    
    Doom 2 V1.666
    
    Full screen, no sound, high detail.
    
    50mhz 486 (Cyrix processor, roughly akin to SX) 16k cache memory.
    Cirrus Logic, bog standard graphics card. ISA bus.
    Normal boot.
    
    	3.47 Fps!!!
    
    Is this expected, or do I have one SICK machine?!?!?
    
    
    Ian.

> Is this expected, or do I have one SICK machine?!?!?

This is expected.

- jeff

    
         Wooo Whooo,
    
         Uh, will no one ever challenge my record of a sizzling
            ~1.7 fps from a PD 386sx/16?
    
         Should I really be this proud of a record like that?
    
                                                           Glad to own
                                                            a P-90,
                                                             Mike.

    Once, just for a laugh, I booted my DECpc466lp to run in SLOW mode (a
    sizzling 8MHz). Yes, I was that bored! Even then it managed nearly 4
    fps.Normally, the 66Mhz mode achieves 12.4 fps since it does not have
    VESA or PCI bus.
    
    Rich.

          
    re  .303
    
    Ive got my DX2 66 mhz now and the same test runs at 21.9 fps.
    
    However...ive now got a real problem.
    
    SOMEHOW, dont ask me how, its messed up my sound.
    I get the music, but no sound effects whatsoever. Ive tried the
    following:
    
    1. First thing I did, obviously, is to try and turn up the sound, dead
       as a doornail.
    2. Made sure the connection and speakers were ok.
    3. Tried other games, no problems.
    4. Checked that the soundcard was still setup in SETUP.EXE.
    5. Looked at default.cfg, no sign of anything untoward.
    6. reinstalled doom2.
    7. reinstalled my sound card.
    8. Tried to run Doom1. Here I got sound effects, but they were "odd".
       corrupted somethow, sort of 'high pitched' versions of the
       originals.
    
    Anyone have any ideas what's gone wrong?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ian Hawley.
    
    p.s I cannot play doom2 without sound effects!!! :-)
    

    I was having a problem with both music and sound effects when playing
    games.  I solved it by putting in a command to reset the sound card to
    factory settings each time I play a game.
    
    PJ 

    
    PJ,
    
    > putting in a command to reset the sound card
    
    how exactly did you do that then?
    
    Ian$soundless_doom_addict

        re: -1

    I have a Media Vision sound card, you can change its settings by using
    the Windows applications that come with it or by using commands in DOS. 
    The DOS application that controls the card is PAS.  So in the command
    files I create for the games I run a have a PAS RESET command that
    resets the card to factory settings.

    Have you gone into setup,and made sure the settings are correct?
    
    Then try a cold boot (ie from PC powered off) and go straight into Doom
    without going into Windows or anything else.
    
    Greg

    Ok, New processor - P60, 256k cache, DS 64 2mb DRAM and Doom2 with
    34.91
    
    I'll check Doom a bit later.
    
    Mark

    oh yeah it's a PCI graphics card as well :-).

    
    I fixed the problem by completely reinstalling DOOM 2,
    Previously, I had just pulled my zip file that I keep on another disk
    across and unzipped it into a new directory (cos i'm impatient)
    A complete reinstallation seems to have fixed things.
    
    Ian$soundful_once_more

    It would be nice if anyone who has upgraded to v1.9 of Doom and/or Doom
    ][ re-does the benchmark info for a more valid comparison!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    I've upgraded, and I'll try to do a new one this weekend, if I get a
    chance.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

Windows 95 ... Doom 2 in a dos box:

doom2 -devparm -timedemo demo2 -nosound (full screen, high detail)...

    43.72 fps.

(system is GW2k P5-100, ATI Mach64 Graphics Expression 2MB vram pci).

I have to reinstall Doom 1 since all the editing I did porked the .lmp, but
performance is similar.  Only caveat is that if you have a bunch of other
stuff running in the "background" then it can pause during disk accesses, etc.

Win95 is for real, kids.  :-)


- jeff_impressed_with_MickeySquish_
  for_the_first_time_in_my_life.

  Both DOOM and Heretic run fine on my system under Windows 95. The benchmark
  frame rate dropped from 30.76 to 27.86 so it's not entirely "free". For the
  loss of 3FPS though, I've gained the ability to take a screen snapshot. Just
  hit the printscreen key, it copies the screen to the clipboard. I've not had
  much success with using Paint to work with the image (far too much memory
  required) but PhotoStyler is fine. It will happily convert the image to
  any of the popular formats. The other plus is that the above figure is with
  the network running (NetBUI, IPX, DECnet, LAT and TCP/IP), both serving and
  being served disks. There's more space for storing WADs on served disks and
  multiple systems can run the same physical image. No chance of mismatched
  versions for network play.

  I also tried running the test on a Venturis P575 16MB RAM and standard 
  onboard graphics. It clocked 37.85 FPS running DOOM from a network served
  disk (off my LPx 466DX2 8MB).
						John Gillings, Sydney CSC

    Celebris GL 133 (16Mb EDO, 512k burst, embedded Matrox) & Doom2 V1.666
    doom2 -devparm -timedemo demo2 -nosound, full screen
    2001/numticks*35
    
    ...56.43
    
    Cheaper 133 configs (8Mb NonEDO, 256k Burst):  53.46
                        (8Mb NonEDO, 512k Burst):  54.21
                        (16Mb NonEDO, 256k Burst): 54.71
                        (16Mb NonEDO, 512k Burst): 55.89
    

     That's obscene

    
         Hi all,
    
         Here's a quick question... Since Doom really hits a 35fps ceiling,
            do you think that anything above and beyond this 35fps
            translates into better performance when running against
            large groups of monsters or large level maps?
    
         I think yes. Doesn't the game ticks indicate processor usage or
            computations?
    
         And what about video cards with 1 vs. 2 vs. 4 Meg? Does the
            cpu know when to offload graphic computations to the card?
            I remember that there was not much difference between a
            1M Trident PCI card and a 2M Diamond Stealth 64 PCI card.
            Is all of Doom's computation's controlled by the cpu?
    
         Well, maybe some not so quick questions...
    
                                                      Thanks,
                                                       Mike.

     Hi all,

     Well, upgraded my motherboard to a new Trinton chipset with Award BIOS.
        This MB is fast...

     My system once again...
    
         System:      Acer P90 w/256k L2 cache
                  **  20Meg
                      4x Mitsumi CD-Rom
                      540M HD
                      Acer 17" monitor
                      Diamond Stealth 64 2M VRAM PCI video card
                      SBPro
    
         DOOM S_E   v1.9   : 44.6 fps  (w/o autoexec & config)
                           : 43.6      (w/  autoexec & config)
    
         DOOM II    v1.7a  : 44.5 fps  (w/o autoexec & config)
                             43.0      (w/  autoexec & config)

                                                    Bye,
                                                     Mike.

         P.S. I won't even mention how well it handles Mechwarrior 2
              in 1024 x 768 mode!

    GW2K p5-133 16meg EDO ram STB Trio 64 with 2 meg DRAM.
    
    	Doom and Doom][ came in at 56.7 fps with sound, graphic detail high
        and sound on.
    
    Jerry

    Pentium 90
    16 Megs RAM
    Triton Chipset
    Diamond Stealth 64 VRAM
    
    46.14 frames per second.
    

Well I'll need to re run the tests on my DECpc XL

I've put in a 90Mhz CPU and a RZ28 2.1GB disk since my
first posting.

Maybe I should get a Diamond Stealth 64 4MB VRAM and a
P133 CPU ;-)

Grant

    
         Hey....
    
         Who updates the performance charts since Dan's gone? :^(
    
                                                        Anyone?
                                                         Mike.

    Greg Hilton does it.

    FNARR!

    
    
    ...when he has time. Anyone care to take over, as I'm out the office so
    much.
    
    Greg Hilton

	Please make the following entries in notes 142 and 143 respectivly.

DOOM SE	V1.9	43.11

DOOMII  V1.7	41.14


	Configuration as follows:

AMD DX4-120

256KB 15NS write-back cache

16MB 60NS memory

2MB DRAM Hercules Stingray 64 Video PCI

PCI motherboard w/UMC chipset, EIDE, and Award BIOS

F5 boot, high detail, no sound, no status bar.


							thanks
							Dennis

    
    Couple of problems here...
    
    Running both demos I get 
    "couldn't open -demo1.lmp or -demo2.lmp for Doom][
    But it still ran a demo - whether it was the correct one I don't know.
    
    Figures are
    Doom 1 v1.9 Ultimate Doom   24.40
    Doom ][ v1.666  22.73
    
    Compaq Prolinea 4/66 16mb ISA no video card.
    
    How do i find out the external cache size - if any?
    
    		Tony B.

    	In need of some advice:
    
    I upgraded my 486SX-25, 8 Mb memory, 128K cache, Diamond Speedstar
    w/1 Mb video card system with a DX2-50 chip a friend gave me. Using the
    default benchmark, this increased my fps for DOOM1 from 6.something to
    8.something. In my normal playing mode (Low resolution graphics, 1/2"
    border), I get 11.something for fps. Playable, but it doesn't leave one
    trembling. Though Descent was completely unplayable before I popped in
    the DX2, so it must be more CPU-bound than DOOM was.....
    
    The question: I'm weighing upgrading to a Pentium, but would like to
    hear from anyone who has/had a similar system to my current one, and can 
    give me some insight as to the possibility of getting up around 20 fps.
    Specifically, since I'm stuck with the ISA bus on this system, if I
    upgraded my video card to a 2 Mb ISA card, any thoughts on how the
    system might fare? There's space and jumpers for another 128K cache,
    any thoughts on how that might help? I've been reading through the
    replies to this note, but haven't seen anything that addresses these
    questions..... Basically, I want to do what I can to avoid buying a new
    system, if I can be cheap & still get up to ~20 fps. Memory is maxed
    out, as all 8 slots are filled with the 1 Mb SIMMS.... sigh.
    
    		Many thanks for all assistance, opinions...
    
    -chuck
                 

    Check out the performance charts, your performance figures look very
    low. DX2/50's are getting around 20 FPS, an my 25mhz laptop got 8 odd.
    
    Are there any BIOS settings you can change? Are you doing a clean boot
    and loading nothing? What about the disk speed, is it a very slow old
    disk?
    
    Greg

    Oh, its notes 142 and 143 for the perf charts.

    	Greg,
    
    I checked out those notes.... I *think* the differentiator is my ISA
    bus, .vs. the VLB and PCI buses listed. The Highest I saw for an ISA
    system was ~16 fps, and I sent E-mail to them; they have a Cirrus
    graphics card, but also are running a DX2-66. But any feedback which
    might be applicable to my poor ISA system is appreciated....
    
    		thanks,
    
    -chuck
                           

    You're correct, the ISA bus is a major limiter to performance;
    throughput is a maximum of 8.33 Mhz, whereas to run a DX2-50, VLB would
    run at 25Mhz, its lowest speed. Frankly, with VLB m/bs being almost
    obsolete, you should be able to find some cheap deals. If I were you,
    I'd put a new m/b into my machine.
    
    Laurie.

    Wot she ;^) said in .336!
    
    I tried a faster ISA card in my oldish DECpc LP, it made little
    difference.
    
    

    	Thanks, Laurie, Greg. I'll try to find one that'l take my scrawny 1
    MB SIMMS, since I'm not ready to pay for a new 8 or 16 Mb just yet...
    
    -chuck
    

    Chuck,
    
    8 fps still seems VERY low for a ISA 50mhz 486.
    
    
    Greg

    I used to run DOOM2 on my old 486 DX 33, ISA, and it ran really well.
    There's something more to this than meets the eye I think...

    Almost sounds like a turbo switch in the wrong position...

    
    Shadow ROM Bios? etc.......
    
    Matt.

    I was getting 19ish DOOM FPS with my DX2-50 and 1MB Cirrus Logic VLB
    video, before I upgraded.  I am interested in selling my old VLB 486
    mother bd and video card if you are.  You can reply directly to
    SALEM::DGAGNON.  Please be aware I am on vaca for the next 2 weeks, but
    will check mail from home occasionaly.
    
    
    							Dennis

    	I just popped back in here, have been on vacation. Thanks to all
    for all of the helpful feedback. No, the turbo switch is correct (in
    the other position, there's a painful stop-frame effect). Re: .342,
    what's "shadowing"? I have the AMIbios, 128Kb cache, etc. It's actually
    very playable at low graphic resolution, with about a 1/2" border. But
    when the test is run as directed (i.e., worst case), it's 8 FPS.... I
    think I will investigate a new Motherboard, either VLB or PCI..
    
    		Again, thanks,
    
    -chuck
    

    By shadowing I refer to whether the bios is set to 
    "shadow bios Rom" which sticks a copy of your bios
    and perhaps the video bios into ram where the program
    can access it faster than if it has to read from Rom
    can't remember the exact words but it's fairly obvious
    if you go into bios setup. Mines phoenix bios, so I don't
    know what F key you need to hit to go into Ami setup.
    Most seem to be set as shadow by default, but may be
    worth checking?
    
    Matt.

    Hello,
    
    I've checked this notesfile for help on my problem with no luck.  I'm
    having a problem with DOOM ][ V1.7 freezing up while playing.
    
    System:
    
    Intel Pentium 90 PCI Motherboard
    16 Meg RAM
    256K Cache
    #9GXE64 PCI video card w/1 meg.
    ALL video shadowing off.
    
    Running the timedemo, I get 36.8 FPS.
    
    While playing Doom ][, the game freezes up with either 'streaked'
    graphics, V_MAP errors, or just simply freezes.
    
    I've read through the manual and tried all their suggestions, however
    still no luck.  The game seems to hang at random places, however it
    *seems* to hang more aften when there is a lot of action going on. 
    I've replaced the video card twice, RAM once, even the CPU. (The vendor
    I bought this from is beginning to hate this game.) :-)
    
    I've reloaded the game many times but keep having the same problem.\
    
    I used to have a 486-50 and never had this happen.
    
    Any suggestions, am I missing something?
    
    TIA
    
    Kevin

    Try loading the game from a different source.  Maybe the source
    diskettes have a corrupted bit?  Find a different shareware version 
    and see if you still have the same problem.
    
    Jason

    The game was loaded from CD, and I've reloaded it several times. (I
    deleted everything, including the directory)  I still have the same
    results.  I do not get any errors while loading, and being that it is
    the commercial version on CD, I can't see the media being bad.
    
    Is there a shareware version of Doom ][?  I didn't think so, and didn't
    see anything about one in here.
    
    Maybe I should send the CD back and get a new one.
    
    Thanks for the input.  Anyone have any other ideas?
    
    This is the only game (it figures) I'm having trouble with.
    
    Kevin

    You're not running from windows 95 or anything are you ? I had
    deathmatch problems from 95 and Hexen sound screws up from 95 also. I
    boot the machine straight up into DOS mode for these kind of games...
    
    Jamie.

    I have WIN95 loaded, however I shut down into DOS mode before playing.
    
    Kevin

  I can successfully run all versions of DOOM, Heretic and Hexen (demo version)
  under Windows95. I haven't tried Doom ][ yet, but I know someone who has,
  with no apparent problems.
						John Gillings, Sydney CSC

    John,
    
    Have you tried deathmatch under '95 ? That almost always screws up in
    the middle of a match for me...
    
    Jamie.

    We tried deathmatch under Win95, it worked, but was slower than a clean
    boot under DOS and using ODI drivers.

    Someone on the internet suggested that if you're playing against
    someone else who is running '95, you set up an IPX network between the
    two instead of the usual straight modem dial-up. It apparently removes
    the requirement for getting the init strings just right and also runs
    faster! Haven't tried it yet but intend to...
    
    Jamie.

  re .352:

>Have you tried deathmatch under '95 ? 

    No problems with 4 nodes running IPX over thinwire. Doom, Heretic and
  Descent. There is a slight degradation from a single node running DOS, but
  even that can be minimised by disabling screen saver and adjusting the
  sensitivity (? last page of properties). That is more than made up for by 
  the ease of making IPX work (once the '95 network is configured, it just
  happens). I spent a whole weekend playing with 3x P75s and a 466DX.
  I'm sure I posted some framerates for a P75 under Windows 95 running off
  a network served disk. Try notes 199.4 and 138.318
						
						John Gillings, Sydney CSC

    New system,new results....
    
    61.01   P120,8Meg (EDO) PCI, Doom 1 v1.9  256 Burst Cache
    
    Ahhh that's better :-)
    
    Matt.   

    I've just upgraded my system to an AMD DX4-120. As before, I have 256k
    cache, 16MB memory, and a DS64 2-meg DRAM VLB video:
    
    Doom1 V1.9  37.66 fps
    Doom2 V1.66 31.75 fps
    
    This CPU upgrade made much less difference to DOOM performance than it
    did to "real" applications. For instance, although the fps increase is
    a small percentage, the PC loads the games in well under 10 seconds now,
    which is very fast. I think it needs a VRAM video for any more speed.
    Given the cost, which is minimal, it's a very good upgrade, even if it
    doesn't make that much difference to DOOM. Mind you, over 35fps, the
    speed increase is academic anyway.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

Anyone out there running Doom on a Matrox Millenium graphics card? I was
thinking of getting one of these and wondered how it compares with the Diamond
Stealth Vram cards for running DOS games.

Stuart

    Does it make much difference with Vram?
    I understood that in DOS the extra speed was insignificant
    and only came into play in a big way in WIndows.
    
    I just built a new system and got the cheapest Diamond Stealth
    I could find it is a Stealth64 Graphics 2001(1meg Dram) with a chipset
    by ARK, Word on the usenet is that this chipset and I think
    an et4000? are the fastest for DOS at the moment. ( I didn't
    know that till after I'd bought it)
    
    I decided to wait till things calm down on the new 3dGraphics
    front before shelling out on an expensive Graph card.
    
    Matt

    Shaun and I have basically identical machines; we both have 16 meg, we
    have identical M/Bs, he has an Intel DX4-100 and I have an AMD DX4-120.
    Where we principally differ is that he has a DS64 2meg VRAM and I have
    the DRAM version.
    
    The difference in FPS speeds between our machines is not just due to
    the fact that the Intel chip has a 16k L1 cache, and the AMD has only
    8K. IMO, it's the video card. So the answer to your question is, I
    think, yes.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Here's some info that may help choose kit. Please note that these
    figures have not been collected under the same criteria as ours are,
    here in this conference, which is why they appear to be so much better
    than ours! They also only apply to DOOM1. Maybe we should do some new
    figures, based on these criteria...
    
    Cheers, Laurie.
    
    
    
        <<< NOTED::DISK$NOTES10:[NOTES$LIBRARY_10OF4]IBMPC-95.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< IBM PCs, clones, DOS, etc. >-
================================================================================
Note 937.351               Overdrive 486DX4 upgrade ?                 351 of 351
CONSLT::OWEN "Stop Global Whining"                  244 lines   8-DEC-1995 12:58
           -< http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/misc/doombench.html >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doom benchmark results

This page lists system performance using Doom as benchmark. Please
contribute new results!

   * How do I submit results?
   * What do the fields in the table mean?
   * Why Doom? What's wrong about 3D-Bench?
   * Disclaimer
   * Other benchmark lists

Note that performance is not only determined by processor, video card, and
motherboard but also by the sound system, the memory manager, the mouse
driver and the disk performance (e.g. SMARTDRV). In particular, some of the
faster results reported were achieved without sound.

Realtks avg.fps    Proc.       Primary  Board           Chipset Board   <  Secondary Cache   >  Memory  <            Video                 >    Memory  Sound
                                Cache                           Clock    size   read    write   wait s.  card           chipset bus     RAM     Manager Card
857     87.1    Pentium-133     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 ?       Diam.Stealth64V ?       PCI     2M VRAM none    none
878     85.1    Pentium-133     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 x333/x222 Herc.Stingray64 ARK2000PV PCI 2M Dram none    none
890     83.9    Pentium-133     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 x333/x222 Herc.Stingray64 ARK2000PV PCI 2M Dram EMM386  none
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************
946     79.0    Pentium-133     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 x333/x222 Herc.Dyn.Power W32p   PCI     2M Dram none    none
949     78.7    Pentium-133     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 x333/x222 Herc.Stingray64 ARK2000PV PCI 2M Dram EMM386  SBpro
976     76.5    Pentium-133     8+8kWB  Gigabyte ATP    Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 ????    0/5-3-3-3 Diam.Stealth 64 S3 968 PCI    4M VRAM EMM 386 none
946     75.0    Pentium-133     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 x333/x222 Herc.Dyn.Power W32p   PCI     2M Dram none    SB16
1020    73.2    Pentium-133     8+8k    Super Micro P55CMS Triton 66    ?       ?       ?       0       Diam.Sleath 64  S3 968  PCI     2M VRAM none    SB16
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************
1128    66.2    Pentium-100     8+8K    Micr.MM54Hi-01PM Triton 66      256K    ?       ?       ?       Diam.Stealth 64 S3 968  PCI     2M VRAM none    none
1140    65.5    Pentium-100     8+8K    ASUS P54TP4     Triton  66      256K    x222/x333 x222  ?       Genoa Phantom 64 S3 864 PCI     2M DRAM none    none
1142    65.4    Pentium-90      8+8K    Micronics M54HI Triton  60      256K    ? sync burst    ? EDO   Diam.Stealth G2001 ?    PCI?    2M DRAM EMM386  none
1145    65.2    Pentium-100     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 x333/x222 Diam.Stealth 64 S3 968 PCI    2M VRAM none    none
===============================================================================================================================================================
1165    64.1    Pentium-100     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 x333/x222 Diam.Stealth 64 S3 968 PCI    2M VRAM EMM 386 none
1167    64.0    Pentium-100     8+8K    FuguTech        Triton  66?     256K    ?       ?       ?       Herc.Stingray64 ARK2000PV PCI   2M ?    ?       PAS+
1175    63.6    Pentium-100     8+8K    Edom MB-8500TAC Triton  66      256K    ?       ?       ?       Cardex Challenger Pro W32p PCI  2M DRAM none    SB16+Wa
?       63.45   Pentium-100     8+8K    Asus P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256KWB  ?       ?       ?       Matrox Millennium ?     PCI     2M WRAM none    none
*       62.9    INTEL P100      8+8KWT  ASUS P54TP4     Triton  66      256WT   ?x222/333       0       ATI             Mach64  PCI     2M VRAM none    AWE32
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1208    61.8    Pentium-100     8+8K    MSI Tr1 P54C    Triton  66?     256K    ?       ?       ?       ATI Graphic Xpression ? ?       2M DRAM ?       none
1216    61.4    Pentium-100     8+8KWB  ASUS P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256kWB  3-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 x333/x222 Diam.Stealth 64 S3 968 PCI    2M VRAM none    SB16+Wa
?       61.4    Pentium-100     8+8K    Asus P55TP4XE   Triton  66      256KWB  ?       ?       ?       Matrox Millennium MGA   PCI     2M WRAM none    Diamond
1225    61.0    Pentium-100     8+8K    Micr.MM54Hi-01PM Triton 66      256K    ?       ?       ?       Diam.Stealth 64 S3 968  PCI     2M VRAM EMM386  AWE32
*       60.25   INTEL P100      8+8KWT  ASUS P54TP4     Triton  66      256WT   ?x222/333       0       ATI             Mach64  PCI     2M VRAM QEMM    AWE32
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************
1285    58.1    Pentium-100     8+8K    ASUS P54TP4     Triton  66      256K    x222/x333 x222  ?       Genoa Phantom 64 S3 864 PCI     2M DRAM none    GUS
1367    54.6    Pentium-90      8+8K    ?               Intel?  60      256KWB  ?       ?       ?       Herc.Stingray 64 ARK2000PV PCI  2M DRAM none    SB16VE
1380    54.1    Pentium-90      8+8KWB  Intel Plato     Neptune 60      256KWB  ?       ?       ?       Diam.Stealth64  S3 964  PCI     2M VRAM none    none

1397    53.5    Intel486-120    16KWB   ?               SiS471  40      256KWB  ?       ?       0       STB Lightspeed  W32p    VLB     2M DRAM none    none
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************
1499    49.8    Intel486-120    16KWB   ?             SiS85C460 40      256KWB  ?       ?       0       STB Lightspeed  W32p    VLB     2M DRAM none    none
1528    48.9    Intel486-100    16KB    FuguTech        FuguT   33      256KB   2-1-1-1 2       0       Herc.DynamiteP  W32p    VLB     2M DRAM none    none
1611    46.4    Intel486-120    16KWB   ?             SiS85C460 40      256KWB  ?       ?       0       STB Lightspeed  W32p    VLB     2M DRAM none    SB16Pro
1617    46.2    Pentium-83 OD   16+16KWT R407e          Sis471  33      256KWB  ?       ?       ?       STB Powergraph 64 S3 Trio ?     2M      ?       none
1621    46.1    AMD 486-120e    8KWB    HOT-433         UMC8881 40      256WB   2-2-2   2-2-2   1WS     Diam.Stealth 64 S3 Tria64V+ PCI 1M DRAM Win95   none
1625    46.0    Intel486-100    16KWB   GA-486AM        UM8881  33      256KWB  2-1-1-1 ?       0       ATI             Mach64  PCI     2M DRAM none    none
1636    45.7    Intel486-100    16K     Hippo DCA2      Opti802G 33     N/A     N/A     N/A     0       Diam.Stealth64  S3 864? VLB     2M DRAM none    none
===============================================================================================================================================================
1671    44.7    AMD486-100      8kwt    ASUS PVI-SP3    Sis496  50      256kwb  2-1-1-1 3?      faster  Diam.Stealth 64 S3 964  VLB     2M VRAM himem.sys sb16
1717    43.5    AMD 486-120e    8KWB    HOT-433         UMC8881 40      256WB   2-2-2   2-2-2   1WS     Diam.Stealth 64 S3 Tria64V+ PCI 1M DRAM Win95   SB16
1749    42.7    AMD486-120      8KWT    Amtron          DM6900? 40      512K    2-1-1-1 ?       ?       ATI             MACH64  ?       2M DRAM EMM386  SB16
1763    42.4    Pentium-75      8+8K    ?               ?       50?     256K    ?       ?       ?       #9 GXE 64       ?       ?       ?       none    none
1775    42.1    Intel486-100    16KB    ECS SA486P AIO-II Saturn? 33    256WB   ?       ?       0WS     Diam.Stealth 32 W32p    PCI     2MB     Win95   SBAWE32
1821    41.0    AMD486-100      8KWT    ?               Opti895 33      256kwb  2-1-1-1 ?       0       Diam.Stealth 64 S3 864  VLB     2M DRAM himem.sys SB16
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************
1954    38.2    Pentium-75      8+8K    IBM Aptiva      OPTI Viper 50   -       -       -       ?       IBM Aptiva      TGUI96xx PCI?   1M      EMM386  none
1977    37.8    AMD486-100      8KWT    ???             Winbond 33      256KWB  3-2-2-2 2-2-2-2 ?       Herc.Stingray   ?       VLB     1M DRAM none    none
1985    37.6    Intel486-100    16KB    ECS SA486P AIO-II Saturn? 33    256WB   ?       ?       0WS     Diam.Stealth 32 W32p    PCI     2MB     Win95   SBAWE32
2005    37.3    AMD DX4-100     8kWT    GXA486SP        SIS496/7 50     256kWB  ?       ?       1WS     W/D BALI32      Paradise PCI    1M DRAM EMM386  SB16 8c
2040    36.6    Pentium-83 ODPR 16+16KWT AST 486DX      ?       33      256KWB  ?       ?       ?       ATI graphics pro Mach32 ISA     1M DRAM none    none
2051    36.4    AMD486-100      8KWT    ASUS PVI486-SP3 SiS496  33      256KWB  2-1-1-1 2       0       Cardex          W32p    PCI     2M DRAM EMM386  SB16VE
2086    35.8    AMD486-100      8KWT    Hippo DCA 2     82C802G 33      N/A     N/A     N/A     0       Quadtel PS805   S3c805  VLB     2M DRAM EMM386  GUS MAX
===============================================================================================================================================================
2145    34.8    Pentium-75      8+8K    IBM Aptiva      OPTI Viper 50   -       -       -       ?       IBM Aptiva      TGUI96xx PCI?   1M      EMM386  SB16
2151    34.7    AMD486-100      8KWT    ???             Winbond 33      256KWB  3-2-2-2 2-2-2-2 ?       Herc.Stingray   ?       VLB     1M DRAM none    SBAWE32
2291    32.6    Intel486-66     8KWT    R407 VESA486  SiS85C471 33      256KWB  2-1-1-1 2       0       S3              864     VLB     2M DRAM none    SB16
*       31.75   INTEL486-66     8WT     Micronics JX       ?    33      256WB     ?     ?       0       Cardex 32P      W32P    VLB     1M DRAM QEMM    GUS + P
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************
2576    29.0    Intel486-66     8KWT    ?               UMC491  33      256KWB  2-1-1-1 2       1       Cirrus          5428    VLB     1M DRAM none    none
2640    28.3    Intel486-66     8KWT    ?               UMC491  33      256KWB  2-1-1-1 2       1       Cirrus          5428    VLB     1M DRAM EMM386  none
2909    25.7    Intel486-66     8KWT    ?               UMC491  33      256KWB  2-1-1-1 2       1       Cirrus          5428    VLB     1M DRAM none    SBPRO
===============================================================================================================================================================
2998    24.9    Intel486-66     8KWT    ?               UMC491  33      256K    2-1-1-1 2       1       G-HOST4000      ET4000AX VLB    1M DRAM EMM386  AWE32
3005    24.9    Intel486-66     8KWT    ?               UMC491  33      256KWB  2-1-1-1 2       1       Cirrus          5428    VLB     1M DRAM EMM386  SBPRO
3020    24.7    Cyrix 486-100   8KWT    Deep Green    SIS85C471 33      256KWT  fast    ?       1       Diam.Stlth64Dram S3 ?   VLB     1M DRAM none    SB16
3215    23.2    Pentium-75      8+8K    ?               ?       50      256KWB  ?       ?       ?       ?               S3 ?    PCI     1M DRAM WNT     none
3228    23.1    Cyrix486-80     8KWT    1440uiv  Bioteq 83c3496 40      128k    fastest fastest fastest C+T 64300       f64300  ?       ? DRAM  EMM386  SB16Clo
3271    22.8    AMD486-100      8KWT    Deep Green      ?       33      256 KWB fast    fast    0       DiaStlth 24     ???     ISA     1M DRAM HIMEM   none
3585    20.8    AMD486-66       8K      OPTi-495SLC     82C495SLC 33    128KWT  2-1-1-1 2-1-1-1 0       Cirrus Logic    5428    VLB     1M DRAM EMM386  SB32
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************
*       18.6    Intel486-66     8KWT    ?               ?       33      256KWT  ?       ?       ?       Diam.Speedstar 24X WD?  ISA     1M DRAM none    SBPro
4335    17.2    AMD486-100      8KWT    ASUS SP3G       Saturn II 33    256KWB  ?       ?       0       ATI             28800-5 ISA     1M DRAM none    none
4668    16.0    intel486-66     8kwt    VESA 486        SIS471  33      256kwb  ?       ?       ?       cirrus          5424    isa     1m dram none    sbpro
4682    15.9    AMD486-100      8KWT    ASUS SP3G       Saturn II 33    256KWB  ?       ?       0       Oak             OTI077  ISA     1M DRAM none    none
4768    15.7    I486-50         8KWT    Contaq ?        Contaq-SIS 50   256KWT  2-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 1       ATI             28800-5 ISA     1M DRAM QEMM    none
4891    15.3    I486-50         8KWT    Contaq ?        Contaq-SIS 50   256KWT  2-1-1-1 3-1-1-1 1       Oak             OTI077  ISA     1M DRAM QEMM    none

How do I submit results?

Get Doom version 1.9s and type in

 doom -timedemo demo3

and mail me a line like the ones above. If you have already installed Doom,
please restore the default settings (Graphic Detail: High; Screen Size: two
steps below maximum (i.e., the status bar and one level of border)), as
they strongly influence the results. Also, configure Doom for using
keyboard and mouse (keyboard-only can give a speedup of 5% according to one
report I received). In order to save me work, please format your entry like
the ones above.

One demo run takes about 90s on a 486-66. You may want to look away or turn
off the screen if you find violence distasteful.

What do the fields in the table mean?

If you send in a result and do not know the right value for a field, just
put a question mark in its place.

Realtks
     After the benchmark completes, the screen displays "2134 gameticks in
     xxx realticks". Realtks is the numer of realticks you get, lower means
     faster. You may want to run the benchmark several times on the same
     configuration and send me the lowest result. I saw differences of 1.7%
     between measurements. If you don't get 2134 gameticks, you are not
     using Doom 1.9s or you have run a different demo.

     A '*' in this column means that a different Doom version has been
     measured (which one, should be mentioned in the remarks column), and
     it does not make sense to list the realticks, because the gameticks
     are different. Take these results with a grain of salt since different
     versions of Doom may perform differently (e.g., if they switch
     compilers or extend the source) and the demos are different. E.g.,
     Doom 1.1 gives 37.6, 30.3 and 28.8 fps for its three demos, on the
     same machine where Doom 1.9s gives 25.3, 27.1 and 25.2 fps for its
     demos. Using a Doom 1.1, demo1 result would overestimate the
     performance of the machine by 50%.
avg. fps
     The average number of frames per second, rounded to the nearest
     0.1fps, computed using the formula from the Doom FAQ:
     35*gameticks/realticks, in our case 74690/realticks. You need not
     compute this field, but it would save me work. If you run a different
     version of Doom, please provide either realticks and gameticks or the
     fps.
Proc.
     is the processor you are using. If you are overclocking (or
     underclocking), please give the name of the processor that would be
     right for the speed (e.g., if you are overclocking an AMD486-80 to 100
     MHz, just give me AMD486-100). Please give the manufacturer; there is
     some performance difference between, e.g., Cyrix and AMD 486-80s.
Primary Cache
     the size of the on-chip cache and whether you use it as write-through
     or write-back cache. Many 486s support only write-through caches, but
     on more modern ones you can choose between write-through and
     write-back (if your motherboard supports WB). You can find out about
     your caches with nucache.exe and ctcm.
Board
     is the motherboard. Please give the complete type, not just the brand
     name (if it actually has a brand name).
Chipset
     the chipset of your motherboard. You can find this out by looking at
     the bigger chips on the board. Apart from the processor (which often
     is under a cooler anyway) there will be one or two chips stating,
     e.g., UMC82C491 and UMC82C493. Another way to find this out is by
     looking in the manual for the motherboard.
Board Clock
     the external clock. For a clock doubled prosseor (e.g., the
     486DX2/66), this is half the processor clock (e.g., 33 MHz for a
     486-66). Typical board clocks for 486s are 25MHz-50MHz, for Pentia
     they are 50MHz-66MHz.
Secondary cache parameters
     the size in kilobytes and the organization (write-back or
     write-through); the size is usually stated by the BIOS on startup, use
     ctcm or nucache.exe if you are not sure; on 486s ctcm seems to
     recognize writeback caches more reliably than nucache); the time for a
     read from the secondary cache in (external) cycles (can often be seen
     in one of the BIOS setup screens); and the time for writing to the
     secondary cache in (external) cycles (the BIOS setup may talk about
     wait states here; add two cycles (on the 486 with write-through) to
     get the time).

     Doom appears to be less sensitive to secondary cache performance than
     most applications. E.g., turning of the secondary cache (256K,
     pipelined burst) of a Pentium-133 increased the execution time by
     about 15%, whereas for the Bapco Sysmark 95 benchmark suite the
     slowdown is 26%.
Memory wait st.
     what the BIOS setup says about the wait states of main memory. This
     alone does not tell us much, but together with the information about
     the chipset should make it possible to determine the main memory
     performance.

     Main memory performance seems to have little impact on Doom. E.g., a
     change in the BIOS settings that lowered the replacement cost for a
     dirty cache line from 35 to 30 cycles (according to nucache) did not
     affect the results produced by Doom.
Video Card
     is the video card used for the benchmark. Please give the type (if
     it's a brand name card), the chipset, the bus (ISA, EISA, VLB, PCI),
     the amount and type (DRAM or VRAM) of video RAM.
Memory Manager
     Which, if any, memory manager you are using. I noticed 3%-5% slowdown
     from starting Doom under EMM386. A friend of mine noticed a slowdown
     factor of 1.6!
Sound card
     The sound card you are using. This has a significant influence on
     performance (e.g., 13% performance difference between nosound and an
     SBPro on my 486-66). You may want to send in results with sound and
     without (just type doom -timedemo demo3 -nosound).
Remarks
     Anything you may want to add.

Why Doom? What's wrong about 3D-Bench?

3dbench is a popular benchmark, because it does something quite similar to
the most hardware-hungry applications of many users (games).

However, it has several shortcomings: The most serious one is that it seems
to use a low-resolution clock, resulting in quantization errors. For
machines based on the 586-120, this error is on the order of +/-6% (i.e.,
two machines with the same result may differ in performance on this
benchmark by 12%). Second, on fast processors it stresses video performance
too much (at least for the resolution it uses); i.e., who cares if a game
plays at 60 or 70 fps (that's what 3dbench gets for, e.g., a 486-100 with a
local bus graphics card). If you have frame rate problems on such a
processor, the game is much more CPU-intensive than 3dbench. Third, it just
uses filled polygons. Present-day games use texture mapping or Gouraud
shading, and a benchmark that uses these techniques would be more realistic
than 3dbench. Fourth, it is an 80286 (or even 8086) program; current game
utilize the features of the 386 architecture in protected mode.

Therefore I propose using Doom as an alternative. Doom has no quantization
errors that I know of, it is more CPU-intensive (although still too
video-heavy on today's faster machines), it uses texture-mapping and it is
a game for 386 protected mode. On the practical side, it is free of charge
and it has a benchmark mode. You may find it interesting that Doom 1.9s is
not Pentium-optimized.

Disclaimers and such

I take no responsibility for the accuracy of the information in this list.

Anton Ertl

            
    Just tried last week-end to see how my PC was :
    
    DOOM2, Demo2 : 2001 gameticks 1692 realticks : 41,39 fps
    
    
    P90 PCI - 16Mb (No idea what the cache size is)
    HD 850
    SVGA S3-Trio-V7 2Mb
    SB16
    15' Monitor
    CD 2x 
    
    
    Philippe

    
    Just upgraded to a new motherboard AMD 486dx4-120 and a Diamond Stealth
    64 1mb dram. Running the doom2 demo1 I get 30.5 fps. If I turn off the
    internal cache via bios I get 31.7 fps. Can someone explain why turning
    off the 8k cache gives me better performance, albeit not by much.
    jeff 

    re .362:
    
>    15' Monitor
    
    a 15 foot monitor!? what, total immersion? Bet it set you back a packet ;-)
    
    						John Gillings, Sydney CSC
                                                                               

re. 

foot ? inch?...or whatever. Why don't we bl**dy use metrix notation
as we normally should. Keep it simple :-)  
oops... 

Philippe

Isn't some European company (Phillips?) working on a laser-based RGB
projection display for computers?

If so... I say "...goodbye TV and pass the 3d shades!"

<followed shortly by>

"...really honey, we NEED to take down this picture and paint the wall WHITE!"


:-)

- jeff

    The oh-I-had-to-try-it benchmark...
    
    XL 6200 (P6/256@200Mhz, V1.03 BIOS, Orion step B0, Matrox Millennium)
    Doom2 V1.666: 53.7 fps
    
    Kinda disappointing; even GL Pentium 133 does better (56ish).
    K

re-1

What do you expect from a 16-bit application, the P6 was
meant to work with 32-bit OS's and Apps.

Grant

Well I thought it was time to check my system out 
since I installed the Matrox Millenium.

My config is now a DECpc XL590 with 48MB RAM
256k L2 Cache and a 4MB Matrox Millenium.

The figure I get now is 40.19 FPS

That is more like it!

I slight ;-) improvement over the 28FPS that I
got when my system had a P60 and a Diamond Viper 
PCI 2MB VRAM.

Grant