Conference tecrus::mormonism

    Here is a naive, non LDS member answer.  Attend another ward.
    
    

	Fred,
		It sure seems to me that it would not be a nice place to
	live....  I wonder, however, what the stake president is like.
	If he did nothing with the child molestor, then maybe he is like
	your bishop.  It seems to me that if that is the case, a letter 
	to Salt Lake is in order.  I would not my family to live under the
	circumstances you have described.

		Going to another ward would alieviate alot of trouble (if
	there is another ward that is better than your current one), but
	that is not how Christ established his church.  I would be very 
	interested to know what happens.

	Charles

    Your ward isn't unusual at all.  Your ward is as normal as the rest of
    the church.  The leadership will tell you to follow the leaders and
    don't worry, after all they are "inspired".  Of course out of the
    other side of their face they will tell you to pursue the truth.  Just
    don't pursue the leaders with the truth.  They, not only tell you to
    mind your own business but, will "slap" your hand until you do.
    
    The truth is fine, just don't let it muck up the leadership.  They
    begin to lose control and members of the ward start thinking for
    themselves and the next thing you know the purge is on.  
    
    If you like the church, keep the blinders in place.  If you don't you
    will become sickened and have to leave too along with those who
    advocate change.  
    
    regards

    To respond to your other question about genealogy software, the church
    has a package that is rather widely used, and as you might surmise
    includes the appropriate fields to record temple ordinances.
    
    The program is called Personal Ancestral File, and is availabile
    through the Church Distribution Center for about $35.00.  I believe
    that there was an order form stuck in the middle of a recent issue of
    the Ensign for a number of prints, publications, etc., from the Dist.
    Center that may have included it.
    
    Sorry to hear of your ward problems.  They do sound distressing!  I
    guess one problem you have with a lay ministry is that you really have
    to keep on top of quality control.  I agree that you should share your
    feelings with your stake president, and if not satisfied with his
    response, go to the regional rep, and so on up the chain...
    
    My fiance' lives in Ellicot City and attends the Columbia 1st Ward (I
    think; they meet from 11:00 to 2:00).  I've been there a half dozen 
    times over the last year and have been very pleased with the spirit in 
    that ward.
    
    Good luck in your endeavors!

Hey thanks for all the opinions,

R.1 Tragically there is a strange thing in the church about attending "other"
wards. It is very rarely done. 

r. the rest of you.... We (my wife 3 teenage kids a baby and I) have all been
bewildered at the goofyness of this ward. It would be easier if we hadn't
been in a couple of very excellant wards before this. The last one in particular
was like a family. Also we were in the ruling clic for the only time in our
lives but what the heck. Also I'm amazed at how little the hierarchy does
anything about giving direction for the local leaders. I remember a couple 
years ago when there was some sort of bishopric training classes, it would
seem that that would be an opportunity to get these guys on a even keel. 

About the child molestor, while he was in the ward every week after his 
arrest I used to wonder what the delay would have been if he did some non-
violent crime like say he was homosexual. He would have been out of here 
yesturday! Similarly it was ironic that the guy couldn't be in Boy Scouts
leadership after his arrest, but he was in Priesthood. Hmmmm at least some-
one has standards! Also the reason for him not being ex-communicated immediately
was that it would jeprodize his trial. In actuality it was the old-boys network
running overtime. Everyone felt sorry for poor Ken. Noone felt sorry for his
daughters or even mention them.

About Columbia 1st ward. A family in our Ward was made so crazy that they
decided to attend that ward. They generally felt awful about going to a 
different Ward but they like the Ward! I asked the family who we would
have to say what to be allowed to go to that Ward. But in the end that isn't
the answer. We hope to be divided back to somewhere else but we aren't holding
our breath.

Finally about the blindness of the Stake... Yup, I wonder what the value is of
the Stake leadership after what our ward has been through. If this is supposed
to be teaching thing why not get around to teaching our Bishop not to treat
people this way. Also on the outrage front... My wife was Primary president 
and several times she caught the guy in something between mispeaks and 
white-lies. Something he should be taught, don't lie to us! Interesting 
experiance to have to live through. I'm awfully proud of my kids that they
are still active and have a pretty good attitude twords the goings on in the
Ward. 

Fred

    One reply you got recommended you work your way up the chain of
    command.  You should try, the results will astsound you.  It amazed me
    how polite "General Authorities" are when they tell you to bury your
    head in the sand.  One is politely told under no uncertain terms, no
    matter how wrong the bishop, stake president, regional
    representative...and so-on are, you must meekly or in all meekness
    follow their advise or direction and you will be "blessed".
    
    Somehow, I lack that kind of faith.  After all, these "leaders" are
    human.  Only human for that matter.  Is it truly impossible for them to
    error?  "Do what is right and let the consequences follow" are only
    empty words in popular Mormon song.  It is not applicable in real
    Mormon life.  Do what is right, but don't let the leadership know that
    you are trying to do what is right.  Discipline procedure could follow.
    
    regards

    Whoa!!!!!  You sure you guys are in the same church as I am.  I mean
    the one that says that personal choice and free agency (free will) are
    paramount values.  The same one that asks me "to find out for myself".
    You know the one that disdains "blind obedience" in favor of personal
    responsibility and accountability.
    
    The stuff you talk of I have never encountered and I worked for 2 years
    on the 18th floor of the Church Office Bldg in the Presiding
    Bishopric's Office, have been a High Councilor, plus Exec. Secretary to
    the Bishopric.
    
    Mormons are indeed human beings and subject to human frailities.
    Infallibility is a Catholic doctrine applicable to the Pope only.  
    
    You don't like your Ward, change it.  My family lived in a ward for 2
    years that did not meet our spiritual needs, hoping that it would
    change.  It didn't! If that happens again, we go to a different ward.
    It is that simple.
    
    I love the Church because it requires of me that I choose and act
    according to the dictates of my conscience. No blind obedience,
    dogmatic mysteries too complicated for my comprehension, or coercion
    are used.  I love this Church because this simple phrase is encouraged:
    
    "Excuse me, I have a question and would like to know more about
    _________(fill in the blanks)?"
    
    That question is how I came to know what I do and how I hope to know
    more of and serve more with the Kingdom of God/Christ.
    
    Regards,
    
    Paul  

Greetings once again,

You know to say one more negative thing then onto something positive...

$35.00! for a piece of software that the church made!!! there are times
when I wonder if someone doesn't get just alittle stupid when they 
charge so much for things. Whenever we buy temple garmets my wife and
I blanch at the number the stuff costs. I swear there isn't a thing that
goes through the Church system that doesn't turn a profit! 


Anyway about our Ward. Other than the awful leadership...I never thought
I would casually say such a thing, even leaders I disagreed with I've
always thought of them as doing the best they could for the Church and
for us. Anyways if you don't get the way of the people running the Ward
it turns out there have been some wonderful people put in important 
positions. The YMYW leaders are nothing less than inspired. The woman
who took my wife's place as Primary President has been thinking/campgaining/
trying/nagging/politicing/somethinging and now she has the job and is
being crushed by it. Not so nice but understandable and we learned something
from it. A dear friend was the Elder's Quorum President and is fairly
outspoken in his thoughts, a wrong thing to do nowadays in the Ward and
is the ex-Elder's Quorum President. No problem. The Bishop is a jerk and 
wants his own type of people in positions so its going to happen. The
other odd but I think inspiring thing to me is that I'll be the Bishop
will be gone in a year. This guy is an embarrassment to everyone up the
chain, the church attendence is substantially down. the old saying 
by their fruits etc. is true.

So anyways in a word its amazing how the truthfullness of the church and
the correctness of its (ultimate) goal will show through. Its a shame that
there isn't some amount of imput that can help smooth the way a bit. What
is shunned as being critical is the kind of stuff that could make the whole
organization work better.

Fred 

re: <<< Note 439.8 by BALMER::MUDGETT "smoldering stupidity" >>>

>$35.00! for a piece of software that the church made!!! there are times
>when I wonder if someone doesn't get just alittle stupid when they 
>charge so much for things. Whenever we buy temple garmets my wife and
>I blanch at the number the stuff costs. I swear there isn't a thing that
>goes through the Church system that doesn't turn a profit! 

	I really think you should be a little more objective here.  I think
	the price is below what it really costs.  Same for the scriptures,
	Book of Mormon, etc..  Sure, garments can add up to costing a bundle,
	but I get 5 or 6 pair at once. Compared to what other people want for
	software packages, $35 is not much for what you get.

	Charles

    Fred,
    
    If you are having problems with your ward, come on down to your old
    ward.  You and your family would be welcomed with open arms.
    
    As for thy program AFP, it is reall great.  It has a built in
    data base and a word processor.  I think that you will like it very 
    much.
    
    Did you upgrade your PC yet.
    
    As for the problems in your ward and stake remember this, these
    are the latter days and Lucifer is doing his best to thwart the
    plan.  This was done once before in church history.   The church
    was disrupted by people in the church.  Some of them were general
    athorities, some were stake presidents, some were bishops, etc.
    
    I was told a story once about a church leader that no one wanted to
    support.  General Athorities were sent to resolve the matter.  A 
    meeting was held and everyone was ask to sustain the priesthood
    leader.  After many votes and many hours, the GAs got a 100%
    sustain, then they turned to the priesthood leader and asked him to
    resign.
    
    This next story is a true story that happened to me.
    A Bishop asked me to do something that I felt was not right.  I went
    and asked the Lord about this.  I recieved the following testimony.
    No matter what a Bishop says or does he is the Bishop.  If the Bishop
    leads people astray then he has to account to the Lord for that  part
    of his stewerdship.  If the Bishop is right and you do not do what he
    wants, then you will be held accountable for that part of your
    stewerdship.  I don't blindly follow any leader.  I question with the
    Lord and then follow.  I know that that leader will be held responsible
    for what he does to me, my family, my friends, etc.
    
    Lee

    Lee
    
    What do you mean by "No matter what a bishop says or does, he is the
    bishop."
    
    I am an ex-Catholic and bring with me a whole lot of baggage about
    "following your leaders no matter what because they are infallible."
    
    Mormondom comes awfully close sometimes to a similar position.
    I believe that obedience and followership are based upon "righteous
    leadership."
    
    On a similar note, last Sunday we had a Priesthood lesson on
    "Support the Powers that be."  Much discussion was had about the role
    of dissent, civil disobedience, etc. in the face of unrighteous "powers
    that be".
    
    Mormon culture is such a paradox sometimes.  We enthrone the principles
    of free agency and accountability out of one side of our mouths, while
    out of the others we declare the necessity of unswerving obedience to
    Church leaders even if they are wrong and support of governments and
    rulers. 
    
    I believe in following righteous leaders in righteousness, and
    righteous governments in righteous laws.  
    
    Paul
    
    

    What about just doing what is right?  The Bishop is not always right. 
    In fact more often than not he is wrong.  If you desire enough, no
    matter how hard you pray, to follow the Bishop, you can be just as
    wrong.
    
    Members are too often told to follow the leadership even if they are
    wrong.  That is blatent blind following by definition.  If it feels
    wrong, if it looks wrong, and if it smells wrong a Bishop, Stake
    President, or any General Authority, or PROPHET cannot make it right. 
    I live by deciding for my self.  It doesn't make any "authority"
    pleased if you think or act for yourself.  Free agency doesn't do
    anyone any good if it is not used.
    
    regards

    All,
    
    Blind following is not the answer.  If you really want to understand
    what the Lord wants, then you must follow his commandments.
    
    IF a Bishop (and only a bishop) tells you some wrong advice,
    you have the right to seek your own answer.  Then you can tell
    the Bishop that the advice is wrong.  IF the Bishop insists that
    you should follow his advice, then
    
    1.  IF you follow his advice, you will be found guiltless.
    	AND the Bishop will have to answer for his wrong doing.
    
    2.  IF you do not follow his advice, then you will have to
        answer the LORD (not local authorities) as to why you did
        not do what your Bishop required of you.
        AND the Bishop will have to answer for his wrong doing.
    
    We all know that this is a lay ministrey and Priesthood leaders
    do make mistakes.  Lets at least allow them the privledge of 
    repenting.  If they do not repent, then it is our responsibility
    to take it to the LORD.  We can take it to other authorities, that
    is our option, but if they do nothing, then it's the LORD that has
    the final say.
    
    These are the latter days and Lucifer is doing what he can to cause
    all sorts of havic in and out of the the church.
    
    Lee

>   <<< Note 439.12 by ANGLIN::AYLWORTH "It's okay...I don't know either!!" >>>
>                          -< Blind leading the Blind >-
>
>    What about just doing what is right?  The Bishop is not always right. 
>    In fact more often than not he is wrong.  If you desire enough, no
>    matter how hard you pray, to follow the Bishop, you can be just as
>    wrong.

     I agree that no bishop is always right, and that is does create a
     dilemma in the minds of some church members as to what to do when they
     feel the bishop (or any other authority) is giving wrong advice.
     But I disagree strongly that bishops are wrong more often than not.
     Seems like a pretty prejudiced view of the situation, in my opinion,
     and tends to allow people to discount any other information included
     with the statement.

    I remember many a Fast and Testimony meeting glorifying the Bishop or
    Stake President.  The glossy eyed member relating how he/she knows the
    Bishop or Stake President are Gods annointed while others knew
    differently.
    
    If one knows something negative about the "lord's annointed" and
    expresses that knowledge, the word apostate floats to the surface like
    a shark circling a lone swimmer.  This difference is the swimmer has a
    better chance for survival.  The herald of bad tiding hears words like:
    repent;  The lord will judge; forgive.
    
    When a member struggles to to correct a problem involving leaders it is a
    up hill battle.  Those in the Bishopric and Stake Presidency will
    circle the wagons and the member left to talk at the shadows looking
    for result which will never come.
    
    Its the reason for the purge.  The intellectuals and feminists are a
    danger to the church.  They wrote to the public in an effort to correct
    injustice within and involving the leadership.  This cannot be
    tolerated.  The intellectuals and the feminists failed to realize the real
    truth about the church and struggle to maintain membership.  That is
    the reason for the "Soap Opera" effect.
    
    I understand how negative this all sounds.  I know about it first hand. 
    The purge doesn't surprise me at all.  What surprised me is why it took
    so long.  Maybe the Sonja Johnson affair took its toll.  Maybe its just
    the adminstration.  For such a long time one could talk openly and be
    ignored.  Strategy changed and the axe is falling.  It is too bad that
    only the "Mormon states" can hear the trees fall.
    
    

>   <<< Note 439.15 by ANGLIN::AYLWORTH "It's okay...I don't know either!!" >>>
>
>    The intellectuals and the feminists failed to realize the real
>    truth about the church and struggle to maintain membership.

     And the real truth about the truth is ... ?

RE:  <<< Note 439.15 by ANGLIN::AYLWORTH "It's okay...I don't know either!!" >>>

>    I remember many a Fast and Testimony meeting glorifying the Bishop or
>    Stake President.  The glossy eyed member relating how he/she knows the
>    Bishop or Stake President are Gods anointed while others knew
>    differently.
    
	No matter what anyone *knows*, they are called of God and should be
	considered Gods anointed. Period.  Now, whether or not they are
	righteously fulfilling their given stewardship is another matter.
	If a person knows they are not, then that person can **privately**
	discuss that matter in the stewardship chain.  That is the order
	the Lord established in his Church.

>    If one knows something negative about the "lord's anointed" and
>    expresses that knowledge, the word apostate floats to the surface like
>    a shark circling a lone swimmer.  This difference is the swimmer has a
>    better chance for survival.  The herald of bad tiding hears words like:
>    repent;  The lord will judge; forgive.

	That because the public expression is not the Lord's way.  Too often
	a person will take offense at something a bishop or stake president
	does, and just blow off a lot of hot air expressing their personal
	dissatisfaction.  A person publicly expressing *negative* knowledge
	is indeed an apostate.  The problem, as I see it, is that *negative*
	knowledge could either be true, gossip, or just sour grapes.  In any
	case, public discussion is not the way to go, and only absolutely
	true misconduct should be considered.
    
>    When a member struggles to to correct a problem involving leaders it is a
>    up hill battle.  Those in the Bishopric and Stake Presidency will
>    circle the wagons and the member left to talk at the shadows looking
>    for result which will never come.

	Perspective plays a major role here.  Who is in the wagon circle; the
	Indians or the settlers?  Even further along; who are the *bad* guys;
	the Indians or the settlers.
    
>    Its the reason for the purge.  The intellectuals and feminists are a
>    danger to the church.  They wrote to the public in an effort to correct
>    injustice within and involving the leadership.  This cannot be
>    tolerated.  The intellectuals and the feminists failed to realize the real
>    truth about the church and struggle to maintain membership.  That is
>    the reason for the "Soap Opera" effect.
    
	The only "Soap Opera" effect are from those who flay their arms in the
	air when the church establishes, or pursues, the order in which the
	Lord Jesus Christ has set forth.  It makes no matter what condition
	or state society is in at this time of the world's progression; the 
	Lord is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.  What he said and
	established before remains the same no matter what the intellectuals 
	and feminists think.

>    I understand how negative this all sounds.  I know about it first hand. 
>    The purge doesn't surprise me at all.  What surprised me is why it took
>    so long.  Maybe the Sonja Johnson affair took its toll.  Maybe its just
>    the administration.  For such a long time one could talk openly and be
>    ignored.  Strategy changed and the axe is falling.  It is too bad that
>    only the "Mormon states" can hear the trees fall.
 
	Maybe the unruly children have been given too much for too long.
	Maybe it is time to re-establish order in the Lord's Church.   
	Maybe Sonja Johnson was only the first major figure to be put in 
	her place in "these latter days."
    
	The one thing that has stayed the same is that when people think they
	are in a position to instruct the Lord on how his church should be
	run, then they are ripe in iniquity and ripe for destruction and

	"Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against
	 the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God."
	(D&C 121:38)

>	Maybe the unruly children have been given too much for too long.
>	Maybe it is time to re-establish order in the Lord's Church.   
>	Maybe Sonja Johnson was only the first major figure to be put in 
>	her place in "these latter days."

Are you sure?  You mean, she is the first major figure to have been ex'd
in this dispensation for whatever she was ex'd for.  I thought the latter
days went back to when the church was established in the mid 1800's.  Surely
other people have been ex'd for the same thing she was.  The only reason
I am not naming what she did is because I can't remember her official reason.
I have it at home if anyone wants me to enter it.  

scott

>Are you sure?  You mean, she is the first major figure to have been ex'd
>in this dispensation for whatever she was ex'd for.  I thought the latter
>days went back to when the church was established in the mid 1800's.  Surely
>other people have been ex'd for the same thing she was.  The only reason
>I am not naming what she did is because I can't remember her official reason.
>I have it at home if anyone wants me to enter it.  

	Well, I have only been a member of the church since 1974 and not
	1830, so I am going only by my particular lifetime ;-) (but my kids
	may argue the age part).  

	But that aside, I would say she is the first feminist I can remember
	to have left the church.  Oh, she was not ex'ed just because she was 
	a feminist, but mostly for the same reasons this last bunch were (
	taking into account that we do not have the official transcripts but
	only from what the people have said).  

	If we want to go back to 1830, I suppose there have been many, many 
	people ex'ed for the same reasons - but they are not in my decade and
	not major to me.

    
    Well I guess it's time I mention something vitally important.
    	
    	We may not agree with many decisions our Bishops or Stake
    Presidents make, but we did sustain them.  Didn't you?  Of course we
    did.  Think about it.  Everyone who is called to any position in the
    Lord's Church must be sustained by the members.  Whether you raise your
    hand or not you have sustained them.  The only way you could not
    sustain them is if you raised your hand when asked, "Any opposed?" and
    then have voiced our good reason for the opposition.
    
    	If you do know of anything for which anyone is unworthy of their
    stewardship and say nothing about it then you are actually sustaining
    the individual.
    
    	On another note: As I said earlier, this is the Lords Church, and
    he will run His Church the way he knows it should be run.  As this is
    His Church, we must be thankful for our membership therein and be
    mindful of the proper order of all things.  
    
    	It is the Bishop and Stake President's responsability to govern the
    affairs of their Ward's or Stake's.  The main question is: Who will you
    follow?  Remember this Scriptue..."Chose ye this day whom ye shall
    serve... but as for me and my house we shall serve the lord."  It's
    not a perfect quote but I believe most of you know this famous
    scripture.  The Lord also said,"Whether by mine own voice or by the
    voice of my servants, it is the same."
    	Both quotes are important, although not perfectly quoted, and
    should be the main thoughts here.  Yes, we do have our Free-Agency and
    we should always remember that.  No matter how we chose we will recieve
    the consequences of ALL of our actions.
    
    	Just do what the Lord asks of you and he will bless you.  I know
    from firsthand experience that although we do not agree with our Bishop
    we should follow his council.  I chose not to follow my former Bishops
    council, and if asked before, I would have sworn I was right, but alas
    I was in the wrong.
    	It's sort of like when we were children growing up.  Our parents
    were not perfect, as I'm sure none of us are perfect Parents today. 
    Our parents wanted to help us do what was right.  At times we thought
    for sure we were correct, but in the end we find out that we were
    wrong.  Sure there are times that the reverse is true but remember just
    like our parents our Bishops and Stake Presidents are not intentionally
    trying to lead us astray.  So listen to them and when you find out or
    believe that they are wrong talk to them.  They will take your comments
    into consideration.  But most of all be patient in all things, The Lord
    does know best.
    
    	Hope this helped.....
    comments?
    >CB<
    

>    	If you do know of anything for which anyone is unworthy of their
>    stewardship and say nothing about it then you are actually sustaining
>    the individual.

	That is a very good point!

>    	It is the Bishop and Stake President's responsability to govern the
>    affairs of their Ward's or Stake's.  The main question is: Who will you
>    follow?  Remember this Scriptue..."Chose ye this day whom ye shall
>    serve... but as for me and my house we shall serve the lord."  It's
>    not a perfect quote but I believe most of you know this famous
>    scripture.  The Lord also said,"Whether by mine own voice or by the
>    voice of my servants, it is the same."
>    	Both quotes are important, although not perfectly quoted, and
>    should be the main thoughts here.  Yes, we do have our Free-Agency and
>    we should always remember that.  No matter how we chose we will recieve
>    the consequences of ALL of our actions.
    
	Joshua 24:15  And if it seem evil unto you to serve  the  Lord,  choose
		      you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which 
		      your fathers served that were on the other side of the 
		      flood,  or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye 
		      dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.


	D&C  1:38  What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not
		   myself; and though heavens and the earth pass away, my word
		   shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by
		   mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the 
		   same.

	You brought out some very good points.  Another one to remember is :

	D&C 38:27  Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is 
		   even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one
		   ye are not mine.

    RE:439.20
    
    One is not realistically allowed not to sustained any of the
    leadership.  If for example one should raise the negative hand, what is
    done?  Antagonistic or those who create a scene are removed or ignored
    pulbicly.  What happens to the demure?  First of all it is a rare
    moment that anyone has the courage to make public negative feelings
    towards callings.  The demure member will be talked to privately by those
    in "authority".  The membership is never informed of the results unless
    "discipline" is required.
    
    Openiness in the church is never in any danger of coming to the
    surface.  One is required to be open, however, with Home and Visiting
    Teachers, Bishop, Elders Quorum Pres, Stake Pres and all other realated
    authorities.  Notice how openiness is just a one-way street.
    
    For instance who in the ward knows (in real money) how much it costs to
    run the ward.  Ask Brother Joe Average, or Sister Jane Average, they
    won't know.  There is no easy way for them to find out either.
    
    The point is that any opinion especially negative opinion, expressed by
    any member is subject to examination.  According some, the opinion can
    even reside in the secular arena.  The examination...well sometimes it
    can be microscopic.  I don't know this first hand, I am happy to say,
    but others have written about their experiences.  

    Any ward financial clerk (or a former one) can tell you how much $ it
    takes to keep a ward going.  But $ spent by and through the ward is not
    the big $'s.  To really have a good idea one would have to look at the
    membership of the whole ward and figure out how much they spend to do
    their callings.  It makes tithing look minor in most cases, and forget
    the money, time has more value.

    It seems to me that you have a larger problem that you need to get
    worked out.  I know cause I was once there.

    Once a year a ward meeting is held and the ward budget is discussed.
    It is not to be discussed in Sacrement Meeting.  It can be discussed
    after the BLOCK meetings or in a combined PM/RS meeting.
    
    The budget is made known to anyone who wants to know.
    The money for the budget comes from Sacrement Meeting attendence.
    There is no more budget contribution.
    
    Secondly, at every General Conference there is a budget reading for
    the Church as a whole.
    
    There is nothing sacred or secret about how much money is spent be
    the Ward, Stake, or the Church as a whole.
    
    Lee

                 <<< HARD_RPT_1:[MORMONISM]MORMONISM.NOTE;3 >>>
                     -< The Glory of God is Intelligence >-
================================================================================
Note 439.25             Shareware wanted Ward not wanted!               25 of 25
SWAM2::SKELLY_SC                                     18 lines   3-DEC-1993 16:18
                       -< Something to always remember. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Well the time has come to wish all of you goodbye, I leave today.
    I have enjoyed reading the comments in this notes file.  
    
    
    	Just remember,  if we sustain the Lord, we sustain his leaders.
    The Lord does love us, let us do our best to do as the Lord would do in
    every situation.  Something I try to do is to try and think...............
    ...................WHAT WOULD THE SAVIOR DO?????????????
    
    
    With that I bid you all farewell.  I testify that the gospel is true
    and that if we follow the Lords teachings he will bless us, not always
    as we would want him to, but he will bless us.  
    
    	adieu
    >scott<
    ************************************************