Conference tecrus::mormonism

    	re:  0
    
    	Paul, 
    
    	I read this book and found it to be a good story but to say it's
    	truth would be a stretch.  I have heard the rumor/fact that Elder
    	Packer has criticized this book from the pulpit.  Any truth to this
    	story?  
    
    	Dave Pyle
    	DEC

Return-Path: decpa::[email protected]
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 08:36:36 -0600
From: decpa::[email protected] (BITNET list server at BYUVM (1.7f))
To: Scott Johnson <TALGUY::scott>
Subject: File: "DATABASE OUTPUT"

> Select * in MORMON-L where subject contains "Embraced"
--> Database MORMON-L, 6 hits.

> PRINT
>>> Item number 12816, dated 93/05/18 22:50:12 -- ALL
Date:         Tue, 18 May 1993 22:50:12 -0600
Reply-To:     "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
Sender:       "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
From:         Jason Hunsaker <[email protected]>
Subject:      Re: _Embraced by the Light_

Note the subject header change.
> From: LAURIE DIPADOVA <[email protected]>

> Jason, I of course was not at the conference, did not hear
> Elder Packer remark on the book (_Embraced by the Light_), nor
> have I, for that matter, heard any General Authority comment on
> the occurrence of Near Death Experiences (NDEs) in general, or
> Embraced by the Light in particular.

I remeber hearing Elder Russell M. Nelson briefly comment on this
in an address he gave.  I can't remember if it was General
Conference or President Kimball's funeral.  I only remember that
I watched it as it was broadcast on television.

As I recall, his comments were allong the lines that the author
of _Life after Life_ approached him and asked if he would share
some of the NDE that had been related to him by some of his
patients.  Elder Nelson responded that he would not share them if
they were to be published because he felt that they were to
sacred for that.

[...]
> 4-My favorite part of the book is where she describes the law
> of sacrifice---how before we came here we were willing to do
> anything to help one another--and she illustrates this rather
> dramatically.  Its the part about the drunk man on the sidewalk.
> This man was looked down upon and disparaged by most everyone
> here, including Mrs. Eadie when she was shown him.  Yet, it turns
> out that he was one of the most honored and valiant spirits of
> heaven--that he had planned to take that role, in order to
> encounter a attorney down the street, to help the attorney
> develop compassion and serve others.  To think that a person
> would sacrifice their mortal probation as a ill-thought of drunk,
> in order to assist someone else, is certainly moving and
> awe-inspiring.  But as wonderful as this is, some Church members
> may not be comfortable with the idea that an elect and honorable
> spirit would choose not to be involved in the Church, in saving
> himself and his family.  If one takes this to a logical
> conclusion, it implies, somewhat, an alternative route to
> exhaltation--- or at least that person's exhaltation is taken
> care of in another way than what we are used to.

You mean, by vicarious ordinance work as a possibility?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Internet: [email protected] (Jason Hunsaker),  Logan, Utah

>>> Item number 12823, dated 93/05/19 08:44:00 -- ALL
Date:         Wed, 19 May 1993 08:44:00 EDT
Reply-To:     "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
Sender:       "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
From:         LAURIE DIPADOVA <[email protected]>
Subject:      Re: _Embraced by the Light_

Jason, what you report about Dr. Raymond Moody approaching Elder Nelson
as in effect asking him for data on NDEs is very interesting.  I certainly
agree that one's personal revelations are not for public consumption.
Dr. Moody, for decades, has been collecting NDE accounts in order to
discern patterns of similarities and differences; I can see why he would
be interested in looking at an LDS sample.

The only other published LDS NDE experience that I've ever read, aside
from Embraced by the Light, is the one about an LDS child---I saw a
summary version in a periodical and I believe I have seen it since
in paperback form.  I have not read the full account.

Some of Mrs. Eadie's account is unique, from what I've read in the NDE
literature--but by and large it certainly is consistent with what has
already been widely researched and reported.

Re: my reflections on the drunk man's exhaltation, yes, vicarious
ordinance experience is certainly a possibility---although we are
wisely admonished not to delay our salvation.

Laurie DiPadova

>>> Item number 12832, dated 93/05/19 10:27:51 -- ALL
Date:         Wed, 19 May 1993 10:27:51 -0400
Reply-To:     "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
Sender:       "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
From:         Rich Wales <[email protected]>
Subject:      Re: _Embraced by the Light_

Laurie DiPadova wrote:

        The only other published LDS NDE experience that I've ever
        read, aside from Embraced by the Light, is the one about an
        LDS child---I saw a summary version in a periodical and I
        believe I have seen it since in paperback form.  I have not
        read the full account.

Duane Crowther's book _Life Everlasting_ is full of (indeed, devoted to)
LDS NDE accounts.  This book is probably worth reading, even though it's
pretty clear that not all the accounts in it are consistent either with
accepted LDS doctrine or with each other.

Rich Wales <[email protected]>       //      Mortice Kern Systems Inc. (MKS)
35 King St. N. // Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2J 2W9 // +1 (519) 884-2251

>>> Item number 12853, dated 93/05/19 08:03:05 -- ALL
Date:         Wed, 19 May 1993 08:03:05 PDT
Reply-To:     "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
Sender:       "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
From:         Mark Christiansen <[email protected]>
Subject:      Re: _Embraced by the Light_
In-Reply-To:  <[email protected]>; from "LAURIE DIPADOVA"
              at May 19, 93 8:44 am

LAURIE DIPADOVA wrote:
>
> Some of Mrs. Eadie's account is unique, from what I've read in the NDE
> literature--but by and large it certainly is consistent with what has
> already been widely researched and reported.
>

Good research into what has already been published will help insure
consistency.

--
Mark Christiansen
[email protected]
[email protected]
--
   No idea is so outlandish that it should not be considered with a
searching but at the same time with a steady eye.
   -- Winston Churchill

>>> Item number 12866, dated 93/05/19 11:16:08 -- ALL
Date:         Wed, 19 May 1993 11:16:08 -0700
Reply-To:     [email protected]
Sender:       "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
From:         Bert Wilson <[email protected]>
Organization: Brigham Young University
Subject:      Re: _Embraced by the Light_

For references to LDS NDE accounts, in addition to those in
Crowther, see:

    Melvin Morse, "A Near-Death Experience in a Seven-Year-Old
(Mormon) Child," _American Journal of Diseases of Children_ 137
(1983): 959-61.  (Perhaps the account Laurie DePadova refers to)

    Craig R. Lundahl, "Near-Death Experiences of Mormons," in _A
Collection of Near-Death Research Readings_ (Chicago: Nelson-Hall,
1983), pp. 165-79.

     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
     *   William A. "Bert" Wilson        *
     *   Telephone:  (801) 378-4048      *
     *   Fax:  (801) 378-4649            *
     *   E-Mail: [email protected] *
     * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * *

>>> Item number 12868, dated 93/05/23 20:06:11 -- ALL
Date:         Sun, 23 May 1993 20:06:11 EDT
Reply-To:     "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
Sender:       "(MORMON List )" <[email protected]>
From:         David R Stark <[email protected]>
Subject:      _Embraced by the Light_

    Last week _Embraced by the Light_ first appeared on the New York Times
Hardback Nonfiction Best Sellers list at number 13.  This week it moved to
number 8.

David Stark
[email protected]

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% To: Scott Johnson <TALGUY::scott>

    I've read part of the book and stopped.  I've read other books about
    NDE's and was impressed that this book seemed to me to be inconsistent 
    with other accounts.  I can't quite put my finger on exactly why, but
    I'll give it a shot.
    
    Part of what bothers me about it has to do with the "preachy" attitude 
    of the author.  It is as though there are new truths and doctrines
    being revealed through the author along with corresponding spiritual 
    urgings based on these new truths.  The avenue seems inappropriate and 
    I felt uncomfortable with the new doctrines as they seemed to me designed 
    to intrigue and impress rather than to spiritually strengthen or enlighten.  
    I felt little spiritual verification of many of the things written as I am 
    accustomed to when reading Scripture or when pondering over personal matters 
    with the presence of the Spirit.  That feeling (or lack thereof) is probably 
    the main reason I stopped reading (about half-way through).
    
    Other NDE accounts I have read understandably suffered from time having 
    passed and details being forgotten or enhanced.  This book is written with 
    such a high level of detail and clear remembrance that it stands out
    from other NDEs, even though a significant period of time elapsed as
    with other accounts before being recorded.  Not only was there a high 
    degree of detail, there was also a very high degree of expressed 
    understanding and interpretation of what those details meant.  This is 
    very much in contrast with other NDEs where the interpretation of events 
    and images was not clear even though the events themselves were consistent 
    between different NDEs.  The author was, however, initially reticent to 
    share the details which is consistent with other NDEs.
    
    I have read at least one other "high detail" account of an NDE which
    was not in as much detail as this one.  Can't remember the name right
    off, but I wrote about it elsewhere in notes.  These two accounts seem
    to me to disagree greatly as to how things "look" in the afterlife.
    Neither account seems completely in line with the NDEs that Dr. Moody
    reported on, but the earlier detailed account seemed to me to be 
    closer.  This one doesn't seem to fit the "mold" of NDEs, from what I
    have read.  There are similarities.  It's just that the worlds
    described in both detailed accounts seemed to be very different
    where I thought they should be more similar.  Both accounts have been
    taken seriously by members, yet they seem to me to disagree.  I haven't
    done a side-by-side comparison with both books.  This is just my 
    impression.
    
    This is more or less a "shoot from the hip" review.  I do not so much 
    doubt that "Embraced by the Light" is based on an NDE.  But, I am 
    quite doubtful that it is an accurate account or that the interpretation 
    of events is accurate.  It just doesn't seem to me to "fit" with other 
    NDEs that I've read about.
    
    Steve

    When I read Embraced by the light, I had the following reactions:
    
    (Thinking she wrote it as non-LDS):
    
    .How remarkable that this non-member would have experiences that in
    most cases support LDS beliefs.
    
    .The Drunk Man Case - I can understand how "all life is interconnected"
    and "that we are here to serve each other", but drunkeness is a chosen
    condition, not like retardation or physical disability.
    
    .Eadie's experiences are remarkably similar to those I read in another
    book, Return from Tomorrow, written by a doctor, Steven Ritchie, and
    also a non-LDS.
    
    I guess I would have to say I liked the book.  Its corroboration of
    events in the other book (Ritchie), and comptability with LDS doctrine
    makes it "credible" to me. Perfect, however, it is not.
    
    I also found curious the message she received about women, and the current
    generation of women, whose "restleness" is being used by Satan to "get
    to men" to motivate them to do things that they would not otherwise do. 
    She said that this tactic was essentially the same one Satan used to
    lure Eve into eating the fruit and then to "manipulate/motivate" Adam
    to do the same thing.  
    
    Paul
     
    

    re: .4
    
    Ah, that was it.  "Return from Tomorrow" was the other detailed account
    I read.  
    
    Steve

    Paul,  I haven't read the book, but my daughter hear the author speak
    and found it to be a very spiritual experience.  When she read the book
    however, she felt that it had been significantly edited and changed to
    appeal to a more spiritually diverse group.  She was very disappointed.  
    
    Barbara 

    
    Guess who was on OPRAH this past Monday?
    
    Yup.  Betty J. Eadie.
    
    Personally, I enjoyed reading the book.  It just lifted
    my sprits for awhile.  Nice feeling.
    
    -Steve

	Yes, I just read the book and I found it most enjoyable also.

	I have not read any other NDE that I can remember off hand.  Even
	if I had, I would not discount this book because of inconsistancies.
	Just like the blind men and the elephant, each person is unique and
	will experience different things by different perspectives.

	Just as Joseph Smith was suprised to see his brother Alvin where he
	was, I would not be *suprised* that the drunk man was there for the
	stated purpose.  I, personally, do not second guess God.  As far as
	what this person experienced, since Joseph Smith talked once about
	"cloud nine" and then nothing more, I figure there are many, many
	things that we do not know about.

	After reading the book, I thought only one section bothered me, and 
	that was about the absence of the declaration of only one true church.
	I came to the conclusion that this was done to allow the other things
	in the book, which I feel are of great importance and worth, to not
	be muddied by declaring it.  I seem to remember an experience that
	was brought out in Sunday School one time.  Appearently this person
	had a NDE and it was very moving.  A member of our church called him
	on the telephone and talked to him.  He believed that our church was
	correct in doctrine with what he expierenced, but would join no church
	because it would dilute his message.

	I think there are many wonderful and great principles taught in this
	book, and I plan to encourage members of my family to read it.

	Regards,
	Charles

    Charles, what's an NDE?
    
    This book was the subject of a Christian radio show last week.  I don't
    know much about it (and haven't read it), but I get the impression that
    Christiandom is very critical of it.  The guest on the program lumped
    the author in with New Agers.
    
    Mike

>    <<< Note 435.9 by FRETZ::HEISER "green grass and high tides forever" >>>
>                            -< sounds interesting >-
>
>    Charles, what's an NDE?
    
	(N)ear (D)eath (E)xperience.  There are some things in the book that
	would be contrary to secular Christiandom, and I think that would be
	why they are very critical.  This book is not, IMHO, a New Age concept,
	but I feel leans toward the way it really is.

	Now, I am not an expert on secular Christiandom, but go only on what
	I read and hear.  Romans 8:16-17 tells me that I will become a God
	just like Christ.  I believe that concept is not held by most other
	people who worship Christ other than the LDS.  There are concepts in 
	the book that would back LDS doctrine more than other doctrine.  I had
	no real problems in reading the book because I could accept most of 
	everything she experienced.  Maybe if she had knowledge of the 
	priesthood, she would have better understood some of her experiences
	and why they were that way.  Overall, I still think it is a worthwhile
	book.

	Charles

    >	would be contrary to secular Christiandom, and I think that would be
    
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is this the new oxymoron? ;-)
    
>	I read and hear.  Romans 8:16-17 tells me that I will become a God
>	just like Christ.  I believe that concept is not held by most other
>	people who worship Christ other than the LDS.  There are concepts in 
    
    True and I'm surprised you interpret that passage that way.
    
    Mike

RE:    <<< Note 435.11 by FRETZ::HEISER "green grass and high tides forever" >>>

>    >	would be contrary to secular Christiandom, and I think that would be
>    
>                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is this the new oxymoron? ;-)

	"secular" means, to me, as defined by man.  So it is Christianity
	as defined by man, as that opposed to what I believe is defined by God.
	Maybe we should say it is the new oxymormon. ;-)
    
>>	I read and hear.  Romans 8:16-17 tells me that I will become a God
>>	just like Christ.  I believe that concept is not held by most other
>>	people who worship Christ other than the LDS.  There are concepts in 
>    
>    True and I'm surprised you interpret that passage that way.
    
	     16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that
	        we are the children of God;
 	     17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs 
		with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may 
		be also glorified together.

	Why is that?  These scriptures tell me that I am a child of God, and
	that I can become a "joint-hier" with Christ.  *joint* means the same
	as, and *heir* means inherit.  If Christ is a God, then I can become
	one also.  Since I am a child of God, I would expect to be able to
	"grow up" like my father.

	I don't know what mysticism secular Christendom has assigned to these
	scriptures.

	Regards,
	Charles

    My DEC issue dictionary (American Heritage) says secular is "1. worldly
    rather than spiritual. 2. not related to religion. 3. not living in a
    religious community."  In essence, the term is often used to mark the
    absence of any Godly influence.
    
>	Why is that?  These scriptures tell me that I am a child of God, and
>	that I can become a "joint-hier" with Christ.  *joint* means the same
>	as, and *heir* means inherit.  If Christ is a God, then I can become
>	one also.  Since I am a child of God, I would expect to be able to
>	"grow up" like my father.
    
    In Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:8, 46:9, 48:12-13 (and several other passages) God 
    tells us that He is the first, and the last, and that no god comes before 
    Him, after Him, or can stand beside Him.   Man has been punished because 
    he thought he could make himself God (Ezekiel 28:1-10 and also in
    Genesis where we read of the Fall of Man).  
    
    John 1:12 sort of elaborates on Romans 8:16-17.  We become the children
    of God through salvation (sort of an adoption).  We do not literally
    become gods.  When resurrected, we will have glorified bodies, but we
    will not be gods.
    
    Mike