Conference tecrus::mormonism

    
>    Actually I think our belief in revelation can become, like anything
>    else, fanaticism.  This fanaticism clouds our thinking, but perhaps
>    gets worse - as in the case of brother "Jones".

	   I believe fanaticism is the wrong word.  Revelation is THE rock
	of foundation to successfully exist in these troubling times.  The
	process of revelation is the only real way to live in the church
	for all members and leaders.  Where people get confused, as can be
	readily seen by the numerous instances of illustrative cases down 
	through the years, is when the two tests to revelation are ignored.

	   The first step to use concerns the question, "Is the revelation
	scriptual?"  That is, does it measure up to what has been revealed.
	A revelation to Joe Blow in Ward X to take multiple wives is not
	from the Lord.  Any *revelation* that conflicts with the current 
	doctrine is suspect.

	   The second step to use concerns the question, "Is the revelation
	within, or concerning, my stewardship?"  This is the most abused.
	What would Peter, James, and John be doing with some local Ward
	Mission leader?  Any new information they would dispense would be
	to the current First Presidency, because that is THEIR stewardship.
	Another abused occurrence is that if I am to move my family to another 
	location, e.g. Missouri, then either I will get that from the Lord 
	or the Lord will let me know through the prophet.  Any other person 
	just does not have the stewardship (look at it as authority).

	   So revelation is good and quite necessary, but like everything 
	else it must be applied in the correct manner.  Otherwise a person
	will just "be tossed to and fro" like a leaf on the wind.

	Charles

	re: <<< Note 423.0 by MIMS::OLSEN_G >>>

>    ....   Another time he told them of walking into his basement late at
>    night (following "promptings" ) and seeing an altar with John the
>    Baptist, Peter and others around it.  THey directed him to kneel at the
>    altar and were going to bless him to be some sort of special wittness
>    when Satan appeared and chased them away.  
    
	Everything else aside :

	I would think that anyone in their right mind would realize that
	Satan has no power at all over those men if they were truly sent 
	from the Lord.

	Charles

    "Real" revelation tends to be a very private thing.  Joseph Smith
    indicated that there were things that he saw that he would not reveal.
    For me, the company of the Spirit is a very real and daily thing.
    Still, small promptings come naturally and frequently.  But, it is 
    very, very private and NOT appropriate for sensationalism or boasting.  
    That type of disharmony destroys the confirming presence of the Spirit
    in an instant.
    
    Given my experience, I am always skeptical when someone shares a
    "spiritual experience" with me that smacks of sensationalism, lacks
    humility, is faithless or somehow seems lacking of the warmth and 
    sweetness that I've come to expect from true spiritual experiences.
    
    Steve

    I wholeheartedly agree with the two previous replies.  And as was
    mentioned, the true tests are 1)is it within the stewardship of the
    individual and 2)if it really is a true spiritual experience, the
    individual involved won't be broadcasting it to anyone who will listen.
    
    Again, as was pointed out, any thinking individual would realize that
    Satan would have no power over the Savior or his representatives -
    however, the individual in this case and in others differ from rational
    people in that they REALLY believe they have seen these things and that
    they are really called to do a specific thing - such as Mr. Judy.  He
    was so convinced of the legitimacy of his "revelation" that he held 
    17,000 students and Pres. Hunter "hostage" to take over as prophet and 
    fulfill the requirements made of him in his revelation.  It prompted
    the Ward Mission Leader to let go of the steering wheel of his car to
    see his "vision".
    
    My point isn't whether rational individuals recognize these experiences
    as true revelation from God, but that the belief in revelation, like
    anything else can lead to fanaticism - like the group discussed in an
    earlier note who became obsessed with the second coming.  I've seen
    this happen with genealogy, the Word of Wisdom - you name it.
    
    ...gary

    Good points about fanaticism.  It is a pretty common thing for faithful
    people to "over-obey" some commandments.  I am reminded of the lesson 
    Adam learned in the Garden of Eden.  Sometimes the situations we find
    ourselves in require that we choose between lesser and greater laws.
    For Adam, it was "be fruitful and multiply" versus "don't eat the
    fruit."  For a soldier it might be "thou shalt not kill" versus obligations
    to protect ones family.  
    
    I suppose that one way a "fanatic" can be identified is by the 
    characteristic of consistently choosing to obey a small set of lesser 
    laws over a larger set of greater laws.  For example, a missionary may
    choose to proselyte 100 hours in a week and ignore the need for
    reasonable amounts of rest.  (This *did* happen to a couple of
    missionary buddies of mine.  It was part of a "test program" that some 
    zone leaders or assistants cooked up.)  Or, it might be folks obeying 
    the command to prepare for the second coming so much that they barricade 
    themselves in their homes and don't come to Sacrament meeting.  Or, it 
    could be someone that is so obsessed about health and paranoid about AIDS 
    that they don't plan on dating or eternal marriage.  On and on. 
    
    Back to revelation, I've met people that claimed to have seen visions.
    For a few of them, these visions were turning points in their lives,
    similar to near-death experiences.  I also met someone who claimed to
    have seen a vision (while in Utah) in which he saw the stars in the sky
    form into a cross, so he joined the church.  (He's not a member anymore.  
    Became a Born Again.  Nice guy, but had/has a problem with drugs. 
    Brains were pretty much smoked.  His testimonies sometimes included
    experiences that involved smoking pot.  Talk about getting sweaty palms
    and white knuckles during fast and testimony meetings and you are the
    ward mission leader -- yup, I remember ...)  
    
    I dunno.  Some folks seem like sign-seekers.  Others want to have a
    spiritual experience so badly they're willing to convince themselves
    with any little thing that happens.  You can't will it to happen.  You
    can't buy it (like the folks that tried to buy Priesthood in the
    Bible).  You can't tell God what to do.  Without faith and obedience
    you can only delude yourself and others.
    
    You can put faith in Him and be willing to accept whatever He wills.  
    Then, things do happen.  Knowledge falls like the dews from heaven, 
    to rephrase a scripture.  Testimony builds and you begin to feel
    harmony with Gospel principles and teachings.  It all starts to make
    sense, feel right, and stands up to logical and rational scrutiny.
    God becomes less mysterious, more real, more personal and infinitely
    inspiring as a force for good in your life.  You are stronger, more
    aware, more compassionate, more humble, happier -- more like God wants 
    you to be.  And, that type of thing is what the Scriptures lead us to 
    believe should happen.  It is what makes faithful people often 
    different from others and different from fanatics.
    
    Having someone hold the steering wheel while you have a "vision" sounds
    wrong.  It sounds to me like a performance for the benefit of the one that
    has to hold the steering wheel.  And, I don't understand where there is 
    any sort of faith-building opportunity here.  Only an opportunity to
    sensationalize.  Another way to look at it.  Scriptural accounts that I 
    know of involving visions sometimes involved information of such import
    or individuals whose hearts were so hardened that a vision was the only
    way to get through to them.  When this guy has "visions" how important
    are the messages?  Why does He feel the Lord has chosen to give him
    visions?  I'd like to know.  At least Judy (though apparently deluded)
    had a message that might arguably have justified a vision.  Thanks!
    
    Steve

	I guess I should read words more carefully, but that happens
	when you're in class and try to keep up elsewhere.  Yes, fanaticism 
	is the correct word.  I seem to have gotten it mixed up with fantasy.
	In any case, the two tests still apply.  

	There is, however, another question I feel has come up in that there
	is the disbelief of revelation for these people who "REALLY believe 
	they have seen these things."  Well, of course they have seen these 
	things.  They are true revelations.  Just because they did not come
	from God does not mean the revelation is not real.  False maybe, but
	not unreal.  Many of the Book of Mormon prophets had trouble from
	people who had revelation from a "false" source.  Korihor is one who
	comes to mind.

	I believe that the only time rational individuals recognize these 
	experiences as true revelation from God and that the belief in 
	revelation leads to fanaticism is when they fail to apply the two
	tests given, or, worse yet, don't know about the tests.  When this
	failure happens, then we see them as irrational individuals who are
	totally off their bonkers.  Mislead, yes, but they still had true
	revelation.  They just didn't have the ability to discern the source.

	Charles