Conference tecrus::mormonism

>    Does our Church have any comments, actions, stand on this subject ?

	This is why church leaders have counseled the membership against
	certain movies and board games.  It may start out as a game, but
	we have to remember that evil spirits can not enter our physical
	bodies without our permission.    

>    evil spirits....  and that he can control the whole thing ...

	This is a common misconception.  Satan has great powers, but through
	the priesthood, he can be controlled.  God is a necessary partner.

>   I need help and guidance to try to help him but do not know where to
>   start.  His family is very worried as he becomes very violent at
>   times and makes death threats and the likes about them.  

	Prayer is always a good personal start.  Major concerns can be taken
	to the priesthood leaders like the Elders Quorum President, or to the 
	Bishop.  In any case, it will only be through the power of the
	priesthood that evil spirits can be successfully cast out, but the
	person affected must WANT it to be done.  Otherwise, they will just
	invite the spirits back in.

	It has been done, and it is very scary.  Evil can be felt in a room,
	or in a person.  It must be cast out, and then conditions must be met
	to ensure it doesn't come back.

	Good luck on your quest.

	Charles

    I'd recommend doing all that one can do to show faith before seeking
    miracles.  I'd consider it a show of faith to go to couseling and
    perhaps seek medical attention.  There are too many things in life that
    we all think we can dabble in while giving the excuse that we can
    "handle" it.  One of the ways that God works His miracles is to work
    through people.  He picks who He will work through.  The Scriptures
    indicate that we need to do our part before/while calling on the Lord.
    (The Brother of Jared and the small white stones, the children of
    Israel coming to the border of the Red Sea, the gathering of all the
    fish and bread available before feeding the masses all come to mind.)
    
    It's amazing how much the Lord can bless us when we exercise even a small
    amount of faith by doing what we can to help.
    
    Steve

	RE: <<< Note 397.2 by INDUCE::SHERMAN "ECADSR::Sherman DTN 223-3326" >>>

>    I'd recommend doing all that one can do to show faith before seeking
>    miracles.  

	Do you consider the application of the priesthood a miracle?  I am
	always under the impression that faith is an underlying principle
	when the priesthood is exercised.  Of cource, one could exercise
	all options before using the priesthood, but it's use doesn't hurt.

>    I'd consider it a show of faith to go to couseling and
>    perhaps seek medical attention.  

	This should be done first to determine if the problem is medical.
	If it is not, then only the priesthood can be used -- of cource, I
	am assuming that faith is with all concerned people when using the
	priesthood.

    r.2 + 3
    
    thanks Charles and Steve for your help.  I'm 100% unfamiliar with this
    territory, as I have always stayed away from such things as advised
    by the church (advise that I strongly endorse for many reasons)
    
    I have already made a medical appt for him with a neurologist (which
    he wants me to cancel ...I suspect that it scares him to find out
    that something might be wrong ...!) hoping that the doctor might
    notice something else beside the neurolgical evidence and recommend
    counseling, something that he has been resisting ...!(I do know that
    no one can benefit from this unless they really desire a change and
    answers in their life ...!)
    
    Several people are trying to push indirectly as he scares them, and
    they  believe that he could be dangerous if left like this.  Knowing
    some things that he has confided in me, I believe that there are
    grounds for their fear, but I can't figure out my responsibility, as
    a citizen, as a member of the Church, as a sister in the Gospel.
    Should I ask for a confidential meeting with his Bishop to talk this
    over (a little bit like the open door policy at DEC ...!) ??
    
    I know that he has never "played" any of the "evil" games so that's
    not where it would come from.  But he insists that there are evil spirits
    in him (so what do I know ...???) and that is why I was wondering
    how/if the Church handles such things, in a special Priesthood meeting
    where only certain leaders might be there ????
    
    Because this is such a personal thing I hesitate going to his Bishop
    and yet I want to help and avoid some kind of possible tragedy.  This
    forum is good as you do not know him and I'm not using his name...!
    
    I think that if I was suffering like this man is, I wold want someone
    to care enough to rock the boat and help me realize that I must have
    some professional help, Church or other ...!  But then again I'm not
    everyone  and can only speak for myself.
    
    I know that this entry is not 100% on Mormon doctrine, but the patient
    and caring love that I have seen expressed here many times by some of 
    you my brethren, makes me think that your inputs and suggestions might 
    help me ...... if for nothing else, maybe as a sounding board ...!
    
    Please also let me know if you feel this is an inappropriate entry for
    this notes file.
    
    your sister in the Gospel
    mathilde
    

Yesterday in Priesthood meeting my Bishop discussed a parallel situation that
concerned members in financial need and other members trying to help by asking
ward members to contribute funds to the needy people.  My Bishop said that
the members soliciting funds in behalf of a needy person were sincere in their
desire to help but they were short-circuiting the church welfare system that
is set up to help in such situations.  His counsel to us was to go through the
Priesthood organization for such help.

I think his counsel might apply to your situation, but that is something you'll
have to pray about.  The brother's ward should have a couple who are advisors
to the singles in his ward.  If such a couple does exist, and if you think they
would have a good relationship with the brother, you might consider talking to
them.  In addition, I think the Bishop of his ward should be brought into the
matter, either via the couple or directly by a confidential visit with you.

I think I would be very hesitant in getting involved in the personal life of
anyone because of complications that could occur, especially if there is any
risk of harm to anyone.  The Church has a Priesthood organization set up for
such situations, and I would let them handle it.

Allen

    Well, if he were my friend I would let him know that I felt I needed to
    talk with his Bishop, was going to make an appointment and would like
    him to come along.  He would probably want to know why I wanted to
    talk to his Bishop.  My response would be that I'm not trying to do
    anything behind his back, which is why I'm telling him about it and
    inviting him to come along.  I cared for him and was concerned that he
    might not be getting the attention he needs from the Church.  I was
    going mainly for my own peace of mind.  And, I'd make the appointment
    and go for those very reasons.
    
    I wouldn't take this step until I was satisfied that my discussions
    with him were not going to lead to my own peace of mind, which is
    apparently the situation you are in.  This is, I think, in line with
    the Scriptures where we are encouraged to try to resolve our differences 
    peacefully with one another before going to leadership.  There need be
    no animosity in this process.  It is a process that encourages love,
    support and understanding.
    
    Steve

	Allen is right -- use the established priesthood channels that the
	Lord has established.  We get nothing but trouble when circumventing
	the path the Lord has given us.

	Talk to your friend's bishop as soon as possible, and ask for some
	feedback as you are concerned about this brother.  I would not feel
	bad about going to his bishop, if I were you, because this brother
	may not even be *aware* of what is happining to him!

	Most of the Savior's healing in this area were done by the request 
	of a third party. A concerned third party.  You are a concerned third
	party.  If you feel uncomfortable about contacting the bishop; go to 
	the Stake President.  You are not doing anything wrong by sharing an
	inside informational position in this case. IMHO anyway.

	Charles

I was involved in a situation once where a close friend was possessed. I 
founf this out the hard by going into his home when a friend of mine and 
I noticed in talking to him on the phone that something was very, very 
wrong.

Once I left his home, I hightailed it to the nearest payphone, and 
started making calls. One of the very first was to his bishop. It was 
important to apprise him of the situation, since he held the spiritual 
keys for dealing for this problem.

Even though I was fully capable of exercising the Priesthood, as far as 
the power was concerned, I knew by direct revelation at that time that I 
did not have the proper authority. If I had gone back in there, thinking 
that I could act as an agent unto myself, I would probably have been 
clobbered myself.

BY the way, since the world doesn't recognize the concept of possesion, 
per se, expect the treatment given this person by doctors and counselors 
to follow the typical path of institutionalizing the individual for ob- 
servation, if they deem it necessary, and most cetainly prescribing 
medicine. (That's what was done for my friend, and it has helped, though 
I think it just masks the problem.)

Godspeed in this trial,

Ken

    There is a basic principle that is being forgotten here.  She is a
    sister, he is a brother.  This situation is very dangerous.  A Bishop
    needs to be involved ASAP.  Even if there is no spiritual problem. 
    Even if this is a pure medical problem.  Where are the Home Teachers. 
    When was the last time the Bishop visited this brother?  The sister
    involved has gone beyond her responsibility as a loving sister, it is
    past time to get the Bishop involved.  If the brother has a problem
    with the Bishop, then that is a different matter.  If Satan is
    involved, that is up to the Bishop to decide.  He has the proper keys. 
    If the Brother refuses to see the Bishop a joint meeting with two or
    more sisters and the proper priesthood leaders should be arrainged.
    A Brother and a Sister not married to each other should never be in the
    same house together alone.
    
    Lee

    After reading all of your caring comments, and praying about it I
    made the decision to go and speak with his Bishop all your answers
    point to that and i feel comfortable with it now.  
    I can't however, let the brother know at this time, because I cannot 
    really totally trust his reaction as we are in unchartered waters ...  
    So I will rely on the appointed leaders as you have all
    suggested and hope that this will be kept in the strictest confidence
    as I do not want this person ostracized or singled-out for something
    that as one of you pointed out he may not even be totally aware of.
    
    It is good to feel that all of you really represent the Gospel in
    action, as you've all felt concerned and have tried to help also,
    I'm very thankfull for all of you.
    
    To address the issue of single people of the opposite sex being alone
    in the same house ... let's not take the letter of the law but
    rather the spirit of the law, I'm not a young teen-ager with 
    over-active glands and hormones, and there is no way I'm going to
    go and visit someone with a chaperone because they are of the opposite
    sex... not everyone has an extended family to rely on ...  
    I know who I am, and know where I stand, and not all
    relationships between males and females are sex oriented.  I have had 
    many male friends that I'm just friends with, nothing more ...! I'm not 
    worried about it, but I appreciate your brotherly concerns for my welfare.
    
    May the Lord bless you all and continue to inspire you in your own
    daily lives.  Thank you
    Mathilde
    

    HI,
    This is an important discussion.  Let me explain my feelings from
    having delt with a situation very similar to this one.
    There are two possible situations that could discribe what is going on
    in this persons life.
    
    1) It is as the person describes and satan or some evil spirit is
    affecting him directly.  This has been the major portion of this
    discussion.  The individuals bishop is very capable of descerning this.
    
    2) The person is not being affected by satan but has a physical
    problem.  This is normally called mental illness.  The symtoms that you
    describe are exactly what happened to a member of my family.  It was a
    case of severe mental illness.  Psychosis is normally what it is called.
    What happens is that some parts of the brain, the centers that control
    sight and hearing, become hyper active.  The person then thinks that
    they hear and see things that others do not.  The problem here is that
    the individual involved cannot differentiate between what is real and
    what is imagined.
    You notice that I was very carefull to call it a physical disease.  It
    is.  It is a chemical imbalance that causes the brain to become hyper
    active.  Normally counseling will not help.  There are several types of
    medications that dramatically help this type of problem.  
    If this is the problem, and I would guess that it is, the person needs
    to talk to a psychiatrist that deals with this type of ailment.
    medical help!
    
    
    I hope this helps.  keep us posted.
    Russell Murray

I have a question addressed to those who said that only a Bishop has "the
authority" to deal with a situation of casting out evil -

	Where did you get this information?

(This isn't addressed to the one who received revelation about his situation).

Bryan