Conference tecrus::mormonism

Hi Kevin,

Congratulations on your transfer!

Notes 188.23 through .33 has some comments about living in Utah.

Since you are single, you may want to live along the east bank so you will
be close to the University of Utah and can easily partake of the social and
cultural activities there.  Foothill drive and I215 act as a beltway around
the city so you can easily travel south to the Jordan River Temple, Provo,
etc.  Likewise, you can quickly get to I15 and go north.

Housing is much less expensive than in New England.  The northern part of
Salt Lake City is the older part and is known as the avenues; my sister lives
there.  The houses are old and there isn't much new building going on, except
for the top of the avenues and those are very expensive.  The east part near
the University (known as the "U") and south into Sugarhouse (21st South) is
also old without much building.  Going south from Sugarhouse (still in the
east) there is new growth and reasonable housing costs; I have a couple of
brothers-in-law and some uncles-in-law that live down there.  Most of the
new growth is in the west and south part--Kerns, Jordan, etc.  Look around
before you buy, because your place of residence determines your Ward, and
there are a lot of differences among wards in Salt Lake City in terms of the
people involved--city folk, farmers, educators, old timers who are entrenched
in the city, new move-in's, etc.

A lot of Utahns are narrow minded, as the school issue note brought out, but
a lot of them aren't, so you can find the type you want.  I think it is harder
to raise children in Utah than in New England.  Out here, people are either
active LDS or they keep their membership hidden and no one knows they are
members, i.e. there are two groups of people in New England--active LDS and
non-members.  Judy and I have found that being in New England has strengthened
our children (and us).  Our kids are proud of being among the four or five
LDS in their High School, they are proud to be Church members.  In Utah, you
have three groups: active LDS, not active LDS, and non-members.  That middle
group makes a big difference in the lives of teenagers.  In Utah there is a
lot of peer pressure to stray from the Church, and this pressure comes from
the not active kids not from the non-members.  Out here we don't have that
pressure because we don't know any not active teens (we may know some but
think they are non-members since they keep their membership hidden).

I love the dry climate in Utah, and I love the mountains and the desert.  Utah
has about the same temperature range as New England, but the dryness makes it
feel warmer during the winter.  If you ski, you'll love SLC.  Ditto for hiking.

Knowing your personality, Kevin, I think I can say that you'll enjoy it!  

Allen

Congratulations Kevin on your Transfer to Utah.

RE: -.1 on the classes of mormons, and also the mention in the School Prayer
note on the subject of "Narrow mindedness".

I recently transferred to Arizona from MA. I find that living in Mesa, There
is as hign a degree of Mormon population as in Salt Lake. It is truly amazing
to find three fourths of the Varsity scout team live on our same 2 block long
street.  But we did find an interesting social structure here. In essence the
Active kids do not have friends outside of that group. The less committed ones
(ie previously referred to as inactive , but they may actually attend church
some times since most of the kids in the are do) do have friends outside of
the church and try to have friends in the active group but do not try very hard
at that and are not well accepted. The non-members are a separate group as 
mentioned. This was tough for our son who was used to having friends in both
the mormon and non-mormon camps. So I have been giving it a lot of thought.

It seems that perhaps that this stems from the typical parental concern of 
trying to help kids choose good friends. However with a lot of active mormons
in the area it is just a lot easier to categorize kids into a group than talk
about their behaviors.  In other words tell a kid that he should play with the
friends from the church and watch out for the others since they might lead you 
into "temptation". This is of course very unfair but it is a lot easier for a
parent to do than be specific about an individual's behavior. This gets further
re-inforced by the advice often given to to young women "don't date anyone that
you would not be willing to marry, hence don't date any non-mormons". This is
of course meant to say that if you don't date a person you probably won't fall 
in love with them hence by dating only mormons the likelihood of marrying a non
normon is greatly reduce. 

I agree that the social division between religious groups in not nice, especially
for those found in the minority, it does stem back to some well meaning counsel
from parents to kids. It also means that it will never change unless a lot of
people make a very serious effort to make it change.  I believe that part of 
the purpose of counseling members to share the teachings of the gospel with 
their friends is to suggest that they in fact cultivate some friends that are
not members. But it certainly has not made a great change to this division.

At the same time, this kind of grouping into classes ought not to be too
suprising to us. It is a normal human trait. People have been grouping their 
friendships around church, race, Ancestral home country, or neighborhood for 
as long as people have been living in cities. Furthermore all of this time
the problems or frustrations that one experiences are typically balmed on the 
other group or groups. So the clannishness that frustrates a person moving
into a new area is the same whether that area is a largely mormon area like
Utah, or a tightly family oriented society like New England in general or a
a racially oriented area like Fall River and etc. The reall message is that
we would do ourselves and others a service as we go out of our way to cross
these natural boundaries.

Since we won't be changing human nature overnight, let's just look to ourselves
and do the best we can. So my son does have friends in all of the groups and 
I try very hard not to "label" any of the friends he chooses.  When I want to
motivate him to have stronger realtions with some particular kids I try to 
facilitate his contact with them. (My wife likes to invite some of his friends
over swimming when he is not home, then when he gets there "the party" is already
going on. It has worked well. He likes it.

May love and brotherhood fill our hearts for all of Gods Children.

Len

Hi Len,

You brought a nice perspective to our discussion; thanks!!

Allen

    What is life like in Utah?  I lived in Salt Lake for 7 years and can 
    give you my impressions as I recall them:
    
    Weather:
    
    2 seasons:  Winter and Summer.  In between there is a short period call
    Fall and Spring.  Their winter begins about Thanksgiving.  One day it
    will be 50-60, the next its 30 degrees and then you know that winter
    has set in.  Same for spring, short and sweet.  One day it is 30
    degrees the next it's 60 and you are suddenly into spring. 
    Temperatures rise quickly. April 60's, May 70's, June 80's, July-August
    90's and up.  Hot part of the day is from 4-7pm.  Weather forecast in
    summer, sunny and hot, hot and sunny, more sun, more heat.  Rain is not
    frequent, clouds are rare.  Beautiful blue skies.  Weather forecast are
    usually given for a week at a time and are the same, sun, heat.  Winter
    in the valley is cold, but basically snowless (measured by New England
    snow levels).  Mountains get lots of snow.
    
    Travel:
    
    Forget taking alternate routes.  Everything is mostly done via
    highways. No such thing as a leisurely drive in the country on a Sunday
    afternoon. Roads are great with plenty of room (usually minimum 4
    lanes), with turn lanes and space to get out of the way.  City Drivers in
    Utah are pretty good. Highway drivers are not.  Rarely signal, travel
    in all the lanes at fast speeds.  Roads are very well maintained.  Plan
    on long travel distances and times.  Typical western vacationer thinks
    nothing of doing about 2000 miles in a week. 12 hour trips are common. 
    A lot of trucks, off road vehicles exist because you have so many
    opportunities to use them. Watch for canyon winds now and then.
    
    The people:
    Warm, friendly, open, genteel, unassuming, caring.  You won't encounter
    snobbishness, or class counsciouness.  No one really cares what your
    ethnic background is.  The lines are drawn like this, black, mexican,
    oriental, white.  No one really cares if your ancestors came over on
    the Mayflower or not.  More important is if you are a descendant of the
    original Utah pioneers, that's is prestigious. In the last census Utah
    ranked the highest state with people of Anglo-Saxon heritage.  That
    fact coupled with a high percentage of Germanic and Scandinavian
    background makes Utah very white, very waspish and very all-American. 
    The blond, blue eyes are seen everywhere.  The ethnic look you see in
    the East is very, very rare.  Large families abound with 6-8 kids the
    norm. 
    
    The culture:
    First, the cultural/performing arts are of high value, thus a ballet
    company, an opera company, two symphonies, numerous theaters, etc. 
    Art, literature, music, theater and educational programs enjoy high
    sponsorship there.
    
    As for Mormon culture, you will find it very different from the East. 
    There is a way of life out there that is unique.  ONe of the negatives
    is that there is a suspicion/dislike for Difference.  Because everyone
    looks so much alike, there is a cultural undercurrent to not be
    different.  Easterners are particularly vulnerable, since Mormons have
    historically suffered at the hands of the Eastern Establishment.  This
    history has warped Utahn's impressions of easterners.  So you might
    want to not bring up the fact of your being from the east (which in
    Utah is anything east of Denver!).  One thing to remember is that Utah
    is closer to California than Mass so you will definitely see the
    "California influence" in life in Utah.  But on the other hand there is
    also the "cowboy influence", which shows up in trucks, with gun racks
    over the rear window, cowboy boots, hats, etc. I just remembered one
    other thing,  in Utah men are men (i.e. hunt, shoot, etc.) and women
    are women (i.e. bake, can peaches, tend kids, etc.). There are clear
    lines of what is feminine and what is masculine.
    
    Well, I could go on and on, but that is enough for now.  My bottom line
    is that I liked life in Utah.  The people are wonderfully warm, caring
    and genuine.  The lifestyle is clean, wholesome, family oriented and
    supportive of the better values in life.  The geography, however, is
    very different.  The people tend to live in crowded subdivisions
    (100x100 foot lots), and the valley is very flat (by New England
    standards).  The plus here is that the vistas and panoramic views of
    mountains and valleys are breathtaking.
    
    So enjoy your relocation to Utah and the Intermountain West.  I just
    remembered something else important, they do not have all the discount
    shopping we do.  Thus, you can expect to pay full price for most
    things.  However, their philosophy is that they charge "fail value"
    rather than "what the market will bear" for stuff.  So you don't have
    to haggle over things.
    
    Well, as I said I could go on and on.  But that is enough. Call me if
    you want to talk, DTN 276 9400.
    
    Paul
    
    ABOVE ALL, REMEMBER IT IS NOT ZION!  IT IS NOT PERFECT.  SOME AREAS ARE
    DOWNRIGHT UGLY WITH NEON SIGNS GALORE.  AND MOST OF ALL, MORMONS ARE
    PEOPLE WITH ALL THE POSTIVES AND NEGATIVES THAT CAN BE FOUND EVERYWHERE
    YOU HAVE HUMAN BEINGS.
    
     

I heard on NPR news this morning while driving to work that MONEY magazine
has declared the Provo-Orem area of Utah to be the #1 place to live this
year.  The announcer said the reasons given included the agricultural nature
of the area, the Mormon people, and the recent industrial development of the
area.  If any of you noters have access to the article, would one of you
kindly give us more details?

Allen

    Not too long ago we had a couple move back from Utah after relocating
    there from Massachusetts.  They told the most distressing stories about
    "not fitting in" due to Utahn's inability to tolerate people who
    are different. The couple were white, blond and blue eyed. So they
    should have "melted" easily, but got snubbed because "they thought
    differently, and didn't do things like other Utahns."
    
    My son has just returned from BYU with similar stories about the narrow
    mindedness and intolerance of students, bishops, non-students over the
    silliest things. I can understand the sometimes misplaced zeal of
    BYU-ites and the application of dress standards, but in my son's case,
    from his telling, he was harassed and almost persecuted for being
    different, not  only looks, but thoughts, questions, etc., while those
    who "had the right Utah/Mormon look" were secretly breaking not only
    standards, but moral laws, and not being disturbed.
    
    To me this lack of understanding of difference flies in the face of my
    experience of a worldwide church.  Sure, there is a predilection in the
    church culture for things Anglo-Saxon, but that is understandable when
    you consider who the first converts were and thus became the foundation of 
    the church.
    
    So what do you thing?  Have you seen any evidence of what this returned
    couple and my son report about the non-valuing of differene found in
    Anglo-Mormon culture?
    
    Paul
                        

Paul,

I can believe it. I know of a situation just like what you describe with the 
couple in Mass with another couple in NH. Almost the same EXACT words. I think
it also depends on where in specific areas (at least according to a friend of
mine who has moved from Utah to Chicago).

Anyone know why this is the case?

Bryan

RE: -.1

I don't normally reply to notes in this conference, but I usually want to.  I
lived in Utah for several years.  I spent 5 years at BYU then 2 years working in
Salt Lake.  I heard of people who felt they were not accepted and some of them
I even called my friends.

I never experienced this and had a hard time understanding why anybody would
feel that they were being persecuted or snubbed in any way.  I suppose I am just
too nieve to see what may infact really be out there, but if it is there, I also
know that it is everywhere else too.

In the cases I was familiar with, those who fealt like this were looking for a
good reason to dislike being there.  If you look for good things, then you're
more likely to find them.

I loved it in Utah and would go back in an instant if anybody could get me a
U.S. visa.

I hope that those who have had a bad experience can somehow learn that not
everybody is against them and that there are as many if not more who are 
really for them and perhaps they just need to look a little harder.

Just my 2 cents worth ...
/Don I.

From:	DECPA::"[email protected]" "Seth Leigh"  6-MAY-1992 19:29:21.57
To:	rock::leigh
CC:	
Subj:	Re: Interested in giving your experience about this, either pro or con what Paul said?

For what it is worth, you can pass this on to the guy who wrote in about the
Mormonism thing.

I am about as different as they come.  Not only do I not fit in to the "Utah
Mormon" mold; I don't fit into any mode at all.  I have never  felt persecuted
here or in Utah in general, for my attitudes.  This is not to say that
everything is perfect here, and I have seen things on occasion that I thought
were really stupid, such as some silly Pharisaical Mormon person getting
upset about the fact that some coffee-FLAVOURED jelly beans were in a sample of
mixed-flavour jelly beans she had bought at the BYU bookstore.  But, these 
attitudes are not oppressive, and aren't generally held by the majority.  Even 
if a majority of the people DID believe that, I don't believe that people would
harass me.

I HAVE seen people who have been "persecuted" for their "differing" beliefs,
but in every case I have seen, the "persecuted" people totally called attention
to themselves, and by trying to impose their "differing" views on the
mainstream Utahn's, they invited "persecution".

Oh well, I personally like Massachusetts better, and I can see that people
might not like it here, but I do not feel stifled at all.

Seth Leigh

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    I agree with the note on "inviting persecution" because of your
    difference -similar to some minority or special interest groups who
    insist on beating us over the head about their difference.
    
    The experience I related about my son and my friends who returned from
    Provo with great feelings of disappointment is somewhat hard for me to 
    understand.  I lived in Utah for 7 years in Salt Lake and Provo. While
    in SLC, I lived on the east bench (21st east and 33rd so) in a ward
    that was four blocks by 4 blocks wide,  It was here that my wife and I
    felt "being different" was not acceptable.  I have to admit it was the
    one and only miserable ward experience I have ever had during my 25
    years in the church.
    
    In other wards my difference (i.e. non-Anglo-Saxon/northern european
    heritage and easterner convert) was considered an asset because I
    brought different perspectives.  I wonder if this intolerance is
    something new.  I have heard persons in my current ward talk about the
    intolerance new move-ins from Utah have brought. 2 years ago this
    intolerance was hitting new heights and the bishop ran a "valuing
    differences workshop" for ward leaders (many of whom were transplanted
    Utahns).
    
    AS for my Stake, (the Boston Stake), we have so many "ethnic units"
    that our stake leaders exhibit the greatest sensitivity towards
    difference.  AS a matter of fact, they encourage the appreciation of
    this difference via international dinners, where difference is
    exhibited.
    
    Maybe this intolerance is just a Utah, inter-mountain west disease, and
    other LDS aren't afflicted with it.
    
    Just my musings,
    
    Paul

                <<< Note 364.9 by ROCK::LEIGH "Feed My Sheep" >>>

From:	DECPA::"[email protected]" "Seth Leigh"  6-MAY-1992 19:29:21.57
To:	rock::leigh
CC:	
Subj:	Re: Interested in giving your experience about this, either pro or con
        what Paul said?

I have seen things on occasion that I thought
were really stupid, such as some silly Pharisaical Mormon person getting
upset about the fact that some coffee-FLAVOURED jelly beans were in a sample of
mixed-flavour jelly beans she had bought at the BYU bookstore.  But, these 

Seth Leigh

Allen, thanks for this forward.  I would find a problem with someone putting
in coffee-FLAVOURED jelly beans.  It may or not contain a percentage of the
"real thing", that's irrelevant as I am striving to live the word of wisdom.

And if I were the follow this path, I might find myself one day wondering
why I am no longer active in the church or for that matter in religion.

After all it was no "big-deal" to eat "coffee-flavoured" jelly beans.  

Then maybe some other aspect of our religion could be slightly circumvented,
because "a little won't hurt."  Or will it?

Just a thought.

-- John.

As you might notice by my node name I am writing this 
note from Utah (Actually the office is in Midvale not 
Provo, unused node names are hard to come by!)

I think that much of  the awareness that we have about differences (or 
lack thereof) is due to our experiences with others who are somehow 
different.  I have talked with some about what it was like growing up
in Salt Lake.  I grew up a short distance to the north and the environment
is somewhat different.  I talked with people who had never met a black 
person until they were out of school!  There just weren't any in their 
schools.  Now how is this person going to know how to act we he meets 
someone who is different?  They may really try to be considerate and
yet stomp all over the other persons feelings and beliefs.  I think I 
only had one friend who was not LDS until I was in High School.  There 
just weren't any in my neighborhood.

My experience has been that most LDS people try to be kind and friendly
with others.  But sometimes what is offensive to someone of a different
culture, background, etc is unknown to an inexperienced person.

We adopted a little girl who has a mixed race background.  We have had
no bad comments, nothing but wholehearted support.

I know several people who feel they are shunned, but I know just as many 
or more who feel right at home.  I don't know what the difference is.

Russell Murray  

    Good point, Russell, in your last note.  But in the two cases I
    mentioned, my son's and the couple's, they did not FEEL shunned. 
    Rather, they were confronted verbally to be told that they were
    different and this difference was not appreciated, welcomed, wanted,
    and bordered on "unrighteousness".
    
    It is very easy to FEEL shunned, when just as you say that feeling is
    totally wrong, because the FACTS are different, i.e. your friends who
    never met a black.  I can understand this situation, because I worked
    with a black person who grimaced everytime I used a metaphor with color
    in it, black box, black humor, etc.  I was unaware that these metaphors
    caused discomfort to her and this discomfort began to paint me as
    insensitive.  In the reports I hear from Provo the non-valuaing of
    difference is blatant, overt, and not at all subtle.
    
    Let me give you an example.  A few years back we had a young couple
    from Utah move in.  They were the typical western Mormons types, tall,
    blue eyed, blond, good looking, active, involved, etc., etc.  The wife
    was place in a leadership position and as a counsellor disapproved
    giving some women in the ward callings because they did not look right. 
    When questioned, this young woman mentioned their overweight condition,
    not having the right clothes, or hairdo, etc.
    
    Surprising to me that people would even think that way.
    
    I wonder if there is a male equivalent to the "right look".
    
    Paul

    Well, when I was in Provo (as a student) I never had too much problem.
    My only problem was when a truckload of "locals" hit me with a raw egg
    once as I was walking home.  But, then, not too many folks want to
    intimidate a 6'4" ugly and mean-looking version of Garrison Keiler.
    Even though it's been since grade school that I knocked a guy down and 
    pinned him to the ground with my knee because I didn't like what he said.  
    Or, threw a guy to the ground over my shoulder when he tried to attack me 
    from behind.
    
    I was always rather a fan of Porter Rockwell ...  I suppose he would have 
    carved out his own niche in Provo.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm comfortable 
    being nice to people because I know I don't have to be. 
    
    A bit more serious, though.  I had a missionary companion that helped me
    understand when people reject you or treat you badly.  We had that
    happen a lot going door to door in Denmark.  Strangers would be mean
    and spiteful.  He pointed out that they actually feel bad about
    themselves.  He was right.  It helped me to love the people and
    overlook their sometimes rude behavior to strangers.  I wonder if the
    folks in Provo don't have the same problem.  That is, they shun others
    or are rude to them because deep down, they really don't feel good
    about themselves.  All the more reason to struggle to love them.
    
    Steve

Porter Rockwell? The "Avenging Angel?" (Is that what they really called him?)
I found an article on him in a non-Church magazine that was actually very
sympathetic to the situations he was in for the most part.

Bryan

    i look forward to the day when i'll be so perfect and self righteous i'll 
    be able to return again to live in utah with the best of the perfect 
    saints. 
    until then i'll just have to be satisfied with an occasional visit
    from those who make the sacrifice to live for a short while out here in
    the mission field, gracing us with their wisdom and letting us know how
    it was done back in utah.

    although i really wonder if i'll ever be able to take listening to
    every sacrament talk begin with "My dear brother's and sister's, I
    can't tell you how.........................".
    
    
    well Paul, why can't you believe that it's true what your friends
    report?  Did you think they went to zion or something?

Take a long look through the Journal of Discourses. There is entry after entry
condeming the Saints (in general) for bringing Babylon with them, trying to 
live in both Zion and Babylon, for rejecting the teachings of the prophets, 
etc. Not that we don't have our share of similar problems here now..

Utah? For me, for now, thanks, but no thanks.

Bryan

    Did anyone watch the 7pm News on ABC last night, October 4?  They are
    reporting on gangs in American, focusing on 5 cities.  The first wast
    Salt Lake City and the growth of gangs there. It was startling to see
    the violence, murder and mayhem, in the streets of Salt Lake.  And it
    was not among minority kids, but among the "white and delightsomes".
    
    They reported that there were an estimated 170 gangs in Salt Lake. 
    They showed kids 6 years old saying that they basically did spray
    painting and theft.
    
    All is not well at all well in Zion.
    
    Paul