Conference tecrus::mormonism

Hi Steve,

You've brought up an interesting and important topic; thanks!

Elder Oaks in the current Ensign has discussed this issue, and the article
has some good thoughts.  I'm under time constraints getting ready for an
Eagle Court of Honor and a vacation trip to take my daughter to BYU, so I
don't have time to summarize the article; perhaps someone can do that for us.

I think the plaintiffs have a pretty good case: there is a fine line between
the school situation in Utah and a state-sponsored religion.  I think (hope)
the school districts will have the burden of proving that they treat all
people the same and show no preference to Mormons.

I think the issue of prayers at graduation is real.  If I were Jewish, for
example, and attended my child's graduation and the prayers were given in
the name of Jesus Christ, I would be very upset.  If I as a Mormon were to
attend the graduation and the prayers were given in the name of Buddha, for
example, I would be very upset.  Elder Oaks discusses the need for "generic"
prayers.  I just came back from a week at Scout camp, and the prayers given
at meal time were "generic".  My scouts wondered about them being "valid"
prayers, and I tried to explain the reason why "generic" prayers were used.
I think we sometimes forget that others have different perspectives than we
have and that we think our perspective is the only way and hence it's ok to
force it on others.

<flame on>

IMHO, I think religious practices should be kept out of the public schools,
period!  I'm referring to religious practices not to studies of the religious
heritage and its influence in history and the current world.  Elder Oaks
discusses this point.

If public schools want to give students a free period and release them such
that they can leave the school property and go where they wish, then that
time should be available for Seminary, as well as visits to the local stores,
etc.  If the schools aren't willing (or legally able) to give kids that
degree of freedom during school hours, then they certainly shouldn't give
preference to LDS for Seminary.  Seminary is not part of the public school
education and has no place in it.  The only justification for Seminary
grades in public schools is as electives, and if the school district
accepts them as electives it had better also accept grades from other
educational systems whether religious or not, and the Seminary classes had
better fulfill real electives as specified by the State Board of Education.

<flame off>

Allen

    Wow.  Interesting.  I agree with Allen.  It's one thing to have
    religious freedom and quite another to force it on someone.  Usually I
    disagree with the ACLU.  Separation of church and state should be a given.  
    There's a difference between allowing prayer in school and forcing it.
    Hope that's not what's happening.
    
    Steve

I'd go further, and say that there is no point in so-called generic 
prayers. They only serve to alienate some people, and do not enlighten or 
encourage any of the remainder. 

We need to pray all the live-long day. This we can do privately if 
necessary. If we do it in such a way that offends anyone, even those who 
bizzarely consider it 'pagan,' then I'd be surprised if the Lord and the
Spirit would participate in the communication. 

/kevin

	This is a pretty interesting topic.  It is also one that will be
	moot in the millennium and beyond.

	As to generic prayers.  I do not feel that Romans 1:16 condones
	these type of prayers.  How could the sacrament prayers be made
	more generic.  Either stand up and pray to God they way He has
	established or don't bother.  If I were in a place of generic
	prayers on the food, then I would silently say my own.  But I
	will not bow to pressure to not worship God the way I have been
	instructed--pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

	As to separation of church and state.  This is a good concept in
	that the people of the state should not be forced to join any
	particular church in order to enjoy the rights and privileges of
	that state.  If the people of that state which belong to a majority
	religion, particularly LDS, badly treat those who do not belong to 
	that majority religion, then they are not properly living their 
	religion.  This is usually the case, however.  Look at the Moslem
	countries, or the arrogance of Israel.  The question I have, since
	I did not grow up in Utah, is do the LDS church authorities and
	the state authorities get together and deny any non-member their
	rights and privileges?  Do not give opinions--give facts.

	If any person thinks that LDS worship practices are pagan, then 
	that is their right.  Just as it is for the LDS people to worship 
	as they wish.  I do not have any real sympathy with the Jewish 
	people not liking someone else praying in the name of Christ.  
	They are a people who have a history of prophet rejection, and 
	they will not, as a people, accept Christ as the Messiah until 
	the second coming.  Till then, they will have to fulfill the 
	prophecy given for their disobedience.

	Now, do not get me wrong.  If I were living in Israel, then I would
	in no way think that I could force my beliefs on them.  Everything
	I would do in my worshiping God would be private.  I would not object
	to their worship practices because that is their right.  Just as it
	is the right for LDS to worship in Utah, it is not the right of any
	Jewish or other non-LDS religious person to object.

	Therefore, this is all leading up to the fact that I heartily 
	disagree with those who object to the school system in Utah.  I
	wish I could send my children to a school that was predominately
	Mormon.  Early morning seminary is tough.  It would be a lot easier
	to have released time in school for seminary.  It would be nice to
	have reminders, like praying, to help remember who I am and why I am
	here on earth.  I get tired of living around telestials.  It is
	hard and I would like a rest.  But until I can have rest, I will
	keep plugging away, and any way I could help my children to keep
	their minds on Christ when in a telestial sphere I would do.

	Charles

Hi Kevin,

>I'd go further, and say that there is no point in so-called generic 
>prayers. They only serve to alienate some people, and do not enlighten or 
>encourage any of the remainder. 

I feel that there is a need for generic prayers and that the Boy Scouts of
America is an example of this.

Part of the BSA program is belief in God.  The Boy Scout oath says, "On my
honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and to my country..."  BSA does
not define what is meant by the word "God".  Each scout decides that for
him or herself.  BSA specifies that prayers will be given at the beginning
of the meals served in dining halls at camp.  The camp directors realize
that there are people present from many different religious backgrounds 
(including non-Christian backgrounds) and that any prayers given must not
be offensive to anyone.  Thus, generic prayers are used; these prayers
refer to "God" or "Creator" or similar words but are general enough that
the people listening to the prayers can interpret them according to their
own background.  I hear the prayers and think of my Heavenly Father and of
Jesus Christ.  A Jew listening thinks of Jehovah.  People of other backgrounds
listen and think of their deities.  No one is offended.  No religious belief
is forced on anyone.  Rather than being an expression of group worship, the
generic prayers are vehicles for persons to think in their mind and their
hearts about the deities they worship.  If I were a camp director, I would have
generic prayers; to have Mormon prayers at a Boy Scout camp would force my
form of prayer on those who disagree.

I think this example illustrates the problem in Utah with events such as
school graduations.  School events are financed by government agencies
through taxes.  People of a variety of religious backgrounds attend.  If the
people giving the prayers use expressions unique to specific religious
systems, they are forcing those in attendance to observe those systems.  I
think that (a) generic prayers should be used at such events, or (b) all
ministers/priests/rabbi's/etc. in the area served by the schools should be
invited to take a turn, including occasionally not having any prayer for those
who do not believe in God.

I personally believe that no prayers should be given at any event that is
financed by taxes.  Prayer is part of the personal life of individuals and
should not be included in tax supported public events.  Organizations that
are not financed by taxes, such as the BSA, have the right to have prayers
if they wish.  If I were a School Superintendent, I would not have prayers
at school meetings, but if I were a BSA camp director, I would have them 
because belief in God is part of the BSA program.  I'm the ham radio
Emergency Coordinator for my town, and when I have a meeting with the
hams, I don't have prayer; to do so would be very much out of place because
religion is not part of the program of the national organization that
sponsors the ham radio activity.

Allen

    Another way to avoid offense is to have a moment of silence wherein the
    individual may silently pray.  I believe I've had this at public
    meetings and it didn't seem to bother anyone, not even if they were
    atheist.  A moment of silence allows even those who are atheist to show
    reverence for the freedom of others to believe as they choose without
    taking offense.
    
    Steve

I just read "The Folk of the Fringe" by Orson Scott Card. (I got it at Waldenbooks). It is a
"Science Fiction" book set in a Post Nuclear War time when the weather patterns have altered 
and the Great Salt Lake is filling up. It presents a time when the Mayor and the Bishop in 
each town is the same person.  It actually presents some very good messsages on what is 
important in life.

Card is an active member of the church and a good SF writer, I recommend most of his books
but this one in particualr is of interest since it deals with Mormon Society when it went
wrong so to speak.

Enjoy,

Len

    I taught during the 1970s in Provo Utah and can relate some things that
    I saw.
    
    First, prayers were indeed offered in the schools for everything from
    Pep Rallys to Graudation ceremonies.  As a New Englander teaching
    there, I was shocked to experience them.  Shocked because as a youth I
    went to a Public High School with many Jews and we either avoided religion
    or treated both Christian and Non-Christian subjects equally.
    
    So, Christian prayers with mention of Jesus Christ in a public high
    school really surprised me.  But in Provo high school 99% were Mormon,
    so call on a kid to give a prayer and of course you get one done
    according to Mormon standards.    Occassionally a
    non-Mormon kid gave a prayer and we would get one of theirs.
    My concern was the over use of prayer.  Does a pep rally really need a
    public prayer, or basketball game, or an assembly?  I think not.
    So in this case, the ACLU might have a strong case.
    
    As for SEminary classes, this fight is an old one in which standing
    decisions have already determined that it does not violate anything,
    because Seminary buildings are owned by the Church, not on school
    property, nor connected with the schools.  I used to eat school lunch
    but had to stop because of the appearance that I was high school
    faculty.
    
    Moreover, LDS Seminary buildings have been offered to other religions
    for their own religious instruction.  Provo, I believe, has set up a
    Catholic version of Seminary.
    
    I also taught in Springville High Seminary, a community 8 miles south
    of Provo, with 100% Mormon population and the situation was the same
    there.
    
    Paul
    

Hi Paul,

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us as one who has taught in Utah.

I think the question of Seminary concerns the idea of released time for a
non-public-school function and the transfer of grades to the public school
records not the use of publically owned buildings.  You mentioned the Catholic
Seminary; did the Catholic kids get released time for their classes?  I've been
wondering what policies are in effect in various school districts (anywhere,
not just Utah) about released time for non-school activities.  Perhaps someone
whose spouse teaches, or who has a friend who teaches, can check this out and
give us some examples.

Anyone read the article by Elder Oaks and would care to comment on it?

Allen

    Hi there,
    
    I have read the article by Elder Oaks, as well as two permutations of
    the same information.  I think he had a lot of interesting observations
    to make.
    
    I don't have time to summarize it right now, but I would like to point
    out what I believe he is trying to say, in a clamshell.
    
    Our nation was founded by men who believed in God, and knew that the
    creation of our nation was guided by the hand of Diety.  They knew that
    church and state needed to be separate, but also knew that religion was
    very important, and should be gaurded.
    
    Early court decisions on religion tended to uphold a person, or a
    groups right to practice their religion as long as it did not force, or
    encroach on another person's right to practice their religion. Prays
    have always routinely been said at the opening of many major
    government meetings, and they still are today (the house, the senate,
    judicial sessions, other meetings).
    
    When the issue of school pray came up, and the supreme court began
    ruling on it, Elder Oaks said he felt that the decisions the court made
    were correct.  However, at that time the prophet (I think it was David
    O. McKay) said that these decisions were not good, and would lead to
    trouble.  Elder Oaks admits that the prophets insight was greater than
    his own at the time.
    
    Now, Elder Oaks says, we are in a position where the rulings of the
    court are almost "anti-religion".  By requiring all religions to conform
    to some generic standard, or be publically unacceptable, they are
    changing the very foundation on which our nation was founded. Our
    nation was founded by religious men, and religion should be part of it,
    even in puclic. The courts have now moved towards the other end of the 
    spectrum.
    
    (BTW: This is all from memory, since it was about two or three weeks
    ago that I read the article, so certain ideas may be somewhat cloudy).
    
    Read the article if you get a chance,
    
    Jim 

I just returned from three weeks in Utah (taking my kids to BYU and visiting
family).  I talked to several people about the school-prayer issue, read
letters to the editor in the newspaper, and listened to talk radio.  I think
I have a better understanding of the feelings of the people in Utah about this
issue.

The people there seem to believe that the schools are theirs.  A common
attitude I found was, "We pay for them and should be able to decide whether
prayers will be used or not"  They resent the ACLU coming in to Utah and
trying to tell them what to do with "their" schools.  I think I can understand
their viewpoint.  For example, my ggf was on the building committee for the
college in Cedar City, Utah  many years ago.  He worked long hours getting men
to move logs down to the valley for the school.  I'm sure all of the people in
Cedar considered that school "theirs".

I wish the people in Utah were correct in thinking the school is "theirs".  I
wish they could make decisions about the school.  Unfortunately, in todays
world, that attitude is wrong.  The schools belong to the government, and
the government makes the decisions.  The people don't pay for the schools; they
pay taxes to the government and the government pays for the schools.  If you
don't think the government owns the schools, then think for a moment about
who controls educational policy--the people or the government?  The government
of course (a very dangerous situation IMHO).  School boards that don't 
cooperate with governmental policy loose funding and very quickly get in
step with the powers that be.

Since the government owns the schools, I believe that the schools should not
advocate any form of religion, and I believe that no prayers of any kind,
whether generic or not, should be used.  If I had my "wishes", the government
would remove itself from the education business and let the people truly
own the schools, but that isn't the way it is in today's world.

Allen

	As I said before, this is a very interesting topic.  I would like
	to comment on some of Allens statements, and then give some
	information I got from non-members living in Sandy.

>	The schools belong to the government, and the government makes 
>	the decisions.  The people don't pay for the schools; they pay 
>	taxes to the government and the government pays for the schools.  

	This is an interesting statement.  Is the government somehow
	separated from the people?  I pay property taxes which are collected
	by the county and given to the school district I live in.  The state
	of Colorado runs the schools in the state.  Am I to believe that I
	have no say in the school system?  This could be answered as both
	yes and no.  No from the overall state perspective, but yes to a
	degree locally.  I really do not like the idea that the schools belong
	to the government, but I have not thought much about it before now.


>	School boards that don't cooperate with governmental policy loose 
>	funding and very quickly get in step with the powers that be.

	I am glad BYU is not funded from the government.  I remember a while
	back when the federal government forced all colleges to have co-ed
	dorms, and BYU told them to go fly a kite.  Federal government could
	do nothing as BYU was totally private funded.  Maybe the people in
	Utah should look into private schools (which the Church has eliminated
	and suggested we use public schools.)

	***********************************************************************

	My friends in Sandy, Utah are Catholic.  They find the LDS people in
	Utah to be somewhat arrogant about non-members. Or even less-actives.
	A little LDS girl told my friends youngest daughter that "she did not 
	belong there," i.e. in that school.

	The only people on the block who will really associate with them are 
	other non-members or less-actives; who are both shunned by the 
	"active" LDS people.  This saddens me very much.  

	First because those LDS people have totally lost the whole concept 
	of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Second because of the people who 
	will never look at joining a church with such arrogant, closed 
	minded people to associate with.  From what I can see, the Lord 
	will not support this kind of behavior and the people of Utah 
	will lose the school prayer issue.

    Sorry I have not been very active in this notesfile, but I find
    I have to answer this note.
    
    I live in Salt Lake City but I do not find what your friends (in
    Sandy) say to be true.  In my neighborhood, (which is predominately
    LDS) we try very hard to include non-members in activities (young men/
    women sports, outings, and all non-religious activities).  As a
    matter of fact, I am the Young Womens Sports Director and we are
    currently playing volleyball.  We have 12 members of the ward on
    the team and 2 non members.  Everyone is treated on an equal basis
    and I find absolutely no indication that we are "arrogant".  Because
    our standards are high, there are some expectations which some people
    might think of as arrogant.  Some of these standards include no swearing,
    modest dress, and above all else, good clean sportsmanship.  We
    have had some non-members in the neighborhood refuse to participate
    in these activities because of the religious aspect (we do pray
    before the game and ask for good sportsmanship and for noone to
    get hurt).  If this is the basis for their lack of participation,
    then they are losing the benefit of associating with GOOD PEOPLE-
    NOT JUST MORMONS, BUT GOOD PEOPLE.
    
    I am sorry to get so worked up, but I try very hard to treat all
    the girls equally. Even so, we are labeled.  If you want my opinion
    about prayer in the public school, I am in favor of it.  It does
    not have to be a Mormon or a Catholic prayer.  Why can't it be a
    prayer to our Lord asking for his blessings.                       
    
    Last point, then I will get off my soapbox.  My next door neighbors
    on both sides  are non-members.  We barbecue together, help fix
    up each others yards, and our children play together.  When their
    family is sick or in need, we are there.  It makes NO difference
    to me that they are not LDS. I think they feel the same way about
    us.
    Louise 

My school district (Massachusetts) did not have prayers at its graduation
this year.  The Superintendent mentioned to me that it was due to a Court
case in Rhode Island (I think that was the state), but she didn't elaborate.

Does anyone know details of that case?  Do you know of other districts that
have discontinued prayers?

Allen