Conference tecrus::mormonism

	Steve,
		You forgot about homosexuality.  To LDS it is a moral sin,
	but has, or is being, accepted by "society".  Of course, this is
	just another sign of the times, and I expect it will get worse as
	it is accepted more and more.

		Remember the lessons given us in the Book of Mormon about
	how to judge a society.  As the society becomes more and more
	corrupt, then their acceptance of morals and laws that are against
	those as established by God will become more appearent.

	Charles

Since I'm one of the older generation, I've been thinking about morals today
compared to my youth.  It is true that many immoralities are accepted today
that weren't accepted in my boyhood. (Boy, am I glad I was born when I was!)

We live moral laws because we have accepted God as an absolute authority in
our lives and we follow His dictates about moral matters.  My first thoughts
about this topic were that the people described by Steve in .0 didn't accept
any absolute authority in moral matters. But, upon further thought, I realize
those people do in fact have an absolute authority behind their
actions--their own improvement.  They do things that will benefit themselves
and don't worry about humanity as a whole.  So, I guess the basic problem
behind all of this is that the high level of immorality in the world
today is because people have substituted themselves as their absolute
authority rather than accepting God as that authority.

This brings out the importance of faith being the first principle of the
Gospel.

Allen

    Yup.  My wife has oft reminded me of Isaiah 5:20:
    
    	Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness
    	for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet and sweet
    	for bitter!
    
    This is what I thought of when I "learned" that "homosexual" was wrong
    and that "gay" was the new, more "correct" term.  I note, however, that
    if one finds the practice repugnant and openly expresses this opinion,
    one is then labeled a "homophobic" rather than, say, a "gay-phobic".
    Thus, it is emphasized that "homo-" is derisive as well as the "-phobic" 
    extension.  
    
    Or, similarly, I learned that "abortionist" was wrong and that
    "pro-choice" was the new, more "correct" form.  I realize, of course,
    that many feel that "pro-choice" relates to a larger issue involving
    personal freedom to select.  But, I have never heard the term in any 
    context except that which involved specifically the issue of abortion.
    
    I'm sure there are other terms where repugnant ideas have been given
    sweet labels and vice versa over the past 30 years.
    
    BTW, I do NOT feel that the assignment of new lables is entirely bad.
    For example, I don't mind referring to blacks as "black" or "people of
    color".  I am offended by the other labels that were common when I was
    a child.  I had/have many black friends and see no need for such racist
    titles.  They were not only offensive but inaccurate.  The labels I
    referred to above, however, seemed added to obfuscate or to remove 
    accuracy in addition to removing offense.
    
    Steve

    re: .2
    
    Interesting observation.  I know that the folks I heard arguing are not
    the Church-going type.  Also, they are not married but live together.
    At the same time, they are friendly and we get along.  They do a lot of
    "fun" things, but I don't know that they are really all that happy.
    I need to find the opportunity to talk with them more about the
    Church ...
    
    Steve

    The comment, a few notes back, about humanity rather than accepting
    God and his word as the final law, look to themselves as the final
    determiner of what is good or not, reminded my immediately of this
    understanding.  
    
    The establishment of the human being as the ultimate/supreme/final
    determiner of the moral code (i.e. there is no higher authority than
    the "self") is a concept that has been with us for many centuries. 
    Some will say the Renaissance Era was the real origin of this thought. 
    Others say that it is really the school of Humanism that has advanced
    this idea.  And some more recent critics say that the 1980's+ advocate
    of this idea of good and evil being relative terms is embodied in the
    spiritual principles of the New Age Movement.
    
    My thought is that no matter what the origin, or the current term for
    it, the concept is being embraced more and more in American society. 
    Evidence - living out of wedlock is just "having a relationshiop" with
    a Significant Other; fornication is just being "sexually active"; being
    of loose virture is simply "having many sexual partners", etc.
    
    Being neither a member of the older generation, nor of the baby boomer 
    generation (I missed it by 2 years), my generation (44-54) is called 
    the Swing Generation, caught between the two.  Raised by Traditionalists,
    yet having witnessed the Boomers and their rejectionist/iconoclastic ideas,
    I do not know whether the outcome of all this
    "self"-determination/self-worship will end up in a greater good, or a
    greater narcisissism.
    
    Are we headed towards another Sodom and Gomorrah or towards a Millenial
    State?  History tells me the nature of humanity is towards the former.
    
    Your  thoughts, anyone
    
    Paul
    
                              

    Hi, Paul!
    
    I think one direction we are heading toward will involve regard of 
    euthanasia as acceptable medical treatment for otherwise incurable 
    diseases.  Also, I think that preagnancy will be labeled as a disease or 
    infection if the mother or other interested parties do not desire the 
    child.  That will probably be a drastic reversal of attitudes from
    30 years ago, of course ...
    
    Steve

Paul,

Interesting perspective, and one I agree with.  I think sometimes that the
wording used tries to justify or soften the impact of the act being commited
to lessen the guilt.  There is a lot of the "me first" attitude going around.

I must be getting old (& only 34!).  Things like personal integrity & honesty,
being a man of your word, putting in an honest days's work, having good 
business/personal ethics don't seem to count any more (& sadly enough, it is 
often to your _disadvantage_ to have these traits).  

It is something that not only happens in the States, it is everywhere.  I guess
that Satan knows the end is near & he's working overtime.  Anyway, let me give
you a couple of examples about how things are on "the other side of the pond":

I probably mentioned before that in Bavaria, a "Bayerische Hochzeit" (Bavarian
Wedding) is a wedding in which the bride is (usually) 3+ months pregnant.  
An announcement indicating the intention to marry is posted on the City Hall
(rathaus) two weeks before the civil wedding.  It tells the names & addresses 
of the couple who plan to marry.  9 times out of ten (my figures), they have
the same address.  The TV commercials here would have be rated R to X for the
nudity that is shown - & unfortunately, it is on public & cable TV and enough
gets shown during "kiddie" shows like the Smurfs, the Muppets, etc.  

A good idea of a modern Sodom & Gomorrah would have to be Amsterdam.  I have 
been to Amsterdam a couple of times on business.  It is a beautiful city with 
canals & interesting buildings.  Unfortunately, it is a city which tolerates 
(translate as encourages) practices (on a _large_ scale) such as selling
/possession of drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc.  Downtown, every 100 meters,
you will see 3 things: A McDonalds (or chinese food restaurant,  a place to 
change your currency, & porno shops.  People openly use drugs - even in 
"speakeasies" - cafes or places where you can get something to drink & listen
to music.  I read an article in a dutch tourist magazine that the church 
of the devil lost a court battle before the dutch supreme court.  Seems that 
they had a house of ill-repute and were trying to claim that "the profits were 
tax-exempt as they were supporting a church".  

< Before someone gets the wrong idea or I get flamed, let me say that the dutch
are real friendly & tolerant of others.  They particularly enjoy american movies
& don't dub them in the local language like in germany.  Hence, their english 
is very good.  Anyway, Amsterdam could be a real tourist attraction if they 
wanted it to be - instead of where the european junkies go just before they 
die. >

In Germany, you are judged on being punctual & keeping to a written contract,
instead of doing "what is right to do".  Doing "what is right to do" means
making a profit here.  It doesn't matter if the hardware or software doesn't
work.  It only matters that it gets delivered on time.  Honesty is something
that people seldom run across & some find it "quaint".  A "gentlemen's 
agreement" is unknown here.  The (english) word "ethics" doesn't translate
into german.  I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Don't get me wrong.  Europe is nice, but they are really liberal when it
comes to morals.  It is seen as being "open" & "tolerant" about things as
sex & drugs.  We (americans) are known as being intolerant & prudish.  I
guess it depends on your point of view.  

Maybe the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.  Yeah, you 
probably read between the lines that I would like to move back to the States.
You are probably right.  It would be nicer to move somewhere where people
had the same moral values as we do.  It probably isn't possible.  Sometimes,
you just have to put up with it & do your best.  Sometimes I feel as though
I am swimming against the tide.  I suppose I could get a house somewhere out
in the boonies, but that would be running away from the problem.  My father
has a saying hanging in his study.  It reads:

A ship in a harbor is safe.  But that is not what ships are made for.

I can't influence the environment around me very much.  The only thing I 
have any real control over is my four corners of the world that I call home.
I try to make it a happy place & one suitable for raising children and I try
to make it a place where the Spirit can dwell.


Back to Paul's note:

> Are we headed towards another Sodom & Gomorrah or towards a Millenial
> State?  History tells me the nature of humanity is towards the former.

I agree.  But there has been significant progress made by both sides.  
Moral Issues like abortion, sex, drugs, are real controversial with most
people.  Some people call it "living together" or "cohabitation".  I call
it adultery or fornication.  Some people call it "abortion".  I call it
murder.  However, on the brighter side, there have been great gains as
far as religion goes.  Granted you have the Bakers & Swaggarts, but they
don't offset the millions of honest believers in Christ.  The Supreme
Court ruling about religious clubs in schools was a positive step forward.
The abortion issue will eventually get settled (hopefully favorably).  
But I think it _did_ make people wake up a little bit and think about 
where they are & where they are going - for better or worse.

Sorry to ramble on, but I think you touched a nerve, Paul.  The last year
has been particularly rough - mostly because of trying to do what is morally
right (see paragrah 2).  

Don't get me wrong.  I don't have a halo or anything.  I have just as many
problems as the next person.  But I try to live the best that I can - in
accordance to the teachings of Christ & as revealed by the prophets in 
these latter days - without pushing my opinions/beliefs on the next person.  
I just get down once in a while when I get taken advantage of by less than 
scrupulous people or for taking some heat because I believe in being honest. 

Well, that's my 2 cents (& about a hundred lines) 8^)

Thanks for reading this far,

Frank

>Downtown, every 100 meters,
>you will see 3 things: A McDonalds (or chinese food restaurant,  a place to 
>change your currency, & porno shops.  
    
    But ... I LIKE McDonalds!  Hope they are still around during the
    Millenium!  (Maybe no hamburgers, but at least we need to be able to
    get a bag of fries and a shake, eh?)  :)
    
    This self-worship thing is thought-provoking.  I saw similar things as
    described by Frank while in Denmark.  I think that as time progresses
    it will become easier to do heinous acts and harder to maintain
    high standards of morality.  But, there has to be a breaking point
    somewhere.  I suppose a lot of folks will hope that the Second Coming
    is manifest to put things back in order.  I suspect that a lot of 
    Biblical calamity will happen and will have explanations rooted in
    actions of men.  I expect we'll hit a Millenial state after Sodom and
    Gomorrah have gone to the furthest depths humanly possible.
    
    Steve

    Good point, Steve.
    
    >  I suppose a lot of folks will hope that the Second Coming
    >  is manifest to put things back in order.  
    
    I agree.  But I also feel that each of is responsible for doing his/her
    share to uphold the standards that we hold so dear and to try to put
    things back on track - instead of waiting for the Second Coming.
    
    We can do this by:
    
    1) Living the Gospel as we should (or at least do our very best
    
    2) Voting for those candidates (hint, hint) who will represent us
       in the government & enact laws that reflect our views.  We can
       participate in writing letters to our congressmen, etc.
    
    3) Setting an example for others.  Maybe, they might become 
       interested & ask you what makes you behave the way you do.
    
    4) Try to do a good deed each day.  People generally tend to 
       reciprocate the good/bad that has been done to them.
    
    Maybe, people will reflect on the direction society is going and
    take _positive_ steps to change it - without resorting to violence
    or demonstrations or such things.
    
    Best Regards,
    
    Frank

I agree with all of the comments that have been made.  I thought I'd add a
comment that we need to keep in mind that there are also a lot of good,
beautiful, spiritual people in the world who do much to bring people to
Christ.  The world isn't all bad.

Allen

    I agree completely Allen.  I have met & contacted a lot of people who
    have a very positive influence in my life & who following the example
    of "Jesus Christ - our role model".  The world isn't all bad.  I agree.
    This is a beautiful world in which we live & I personally am very 
    grateful that I live in this day & age when the Gospel has been
    restored upon the earth.  I have met people who lead their lives in
    accordance with the example & teachings of our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
    One family were devout believers in Confucius.  Yet their daily 
    conduct in dealing with their fellow men was definitely according to
    the teachings of Christ.  They didn't believe in Jesus, but they were
    more "Christian" than most christians I have met (in that they followed
    the example of Christ).  They were selfless - in that they put other
    people first.  Yes, there are good & bad influences in this life.  
    
    When I see others who are living Christ-like (even though they don't
    call themselves Christians), I try to follow their example and apply
    the positive things that they do to my own life.  
    
    I am aware of the bad that is in the world (there are few newscasts
    that concentrate on "good" news.  But I can also be aware of the good
    that is being done and try to apply it in my own life.  We can all
    learn from each other - especially those things which are positive,
    rightous, and uplifting.  
    
    Best Regards,
    
    Frank

Interesting topic.  I grew up in Las Vegas.  In 5th grade kids had to 
choose what type of life they wanted.  Drugs, sex, gambling, etc.
were all around and available even at this age.  It greatly contrasted
with my wife's situation; Provo before the growth.  What I have observed
is that many in Las Vegas selected lives that were filled with Hedonism,
Materialism, and a lust for power over others.  While others selected 
a life based on eternal principles (whether LDS, Christian or other
it did not matter).  Each person received the life they selected, and the 
blessings (or suffering) from their choice.

I also observed many who moved to Las Vegas from environments like Provo.
Once removed from the social structure that supported "good behavior"
about the same ratio of people selected the worldly path.  Previous to
moving to Las Vegas they did not have the range of options, but were
internally just as corrupt as those who openly lived the worldly life.  

My conclusion is that people have not changed over the years only the
opportunity has changed.  I see the rest of the world having the same
opportunity to do evil as was available in Las Vegas in the 60's.
With more opportunity around it just seems like there is more sin
since the type of person any individual is shows more.

I also see this as a necessary condition for the Millenium.  The people
must have unlimited opportunity to do evil and reject it by themselves;
no society pressure can be applied - it must be free willed.  Otherwise
they would not be the type of people to live a Terrestrial Law and bind
Satan through their own rejection of his temptations.  Lehi had some
good words on this in 2 Nephi 2:11  where he said there needed to be an
opposition in all things otherwise righteousness could not be brought to 
pass.  So I see this freedom necessary in order to allow the good to 
become better.  That is why you find some truely wonderful people in 
places where evil is all around; they have made their own world a heaven
through their own choices.

Therefore, we must tollerate a society where all individuals are truely
free to select good or evil.  In other words a society where all is possible.
Only in closed societies will individuals not have the option of
selecting the truely decadent or righteous life they desire.

This presents us with an unusual problem.  How do we do all in our
power to eliminate evil in society while still allowing others the freedom 
to choose that same evil we are eliminating?  I believe that the only
way this can work is to allow the full force of the results of the 
choices people make to bear down on them.  As long as society tries to 
protect individuals from the results of their poor choices then society 
is subsidizing those poor choices.  Rather society should say that you can do
anything but you have to pay the price.    Full freedom at the suggested 
manufacturers retail price!    I am sure this will not be
possible with mortals since we desire to avoid taking resposibility for
our actions and we have no demonstrated capacity to judge others wisely.
So the argument over heard in note .0 no basis since society does not
    know what is right and wrong and therfore no rules can be made.
    
Interestingly the Lord's solution is one we cannot use:
all the wicked (as determined by an all knowing God) will be destroyed 
at His coming.

Dennis C.