Conference tecrus::mormonism

	I think that the change is a natural progression of the latter-days.
	The Law of Consecration is being brought about in stages.  This law
	must be in full force and effect before Christ will return.  It is
	just another "sign of the times."

	Besides the numerous Book of Mormon incidences of wealth being a 
	problem to the church, we have even seen it mentioned in this 
	conference.  This is just one more of the trials of refining that
	God will put His people through before He can claim them.  

	Just as people left the church because of every worthy male 
	receiving the priesthood, or the ERA, or any number of things 
	where people do not want to learn about and live the laws of God,
	so this too will cause a purging of the church.

	Charles

I think its great.  My wife and I live in a 'well to do' ward.  After leaving
a humble branch out in the country - this ward was our trial.  My wife has
wrestled with her scout calling because ward members are used to throwing 
money into the scouting activities - as a way to make them successful.

An example of the changes the new budget is bringing about is the Blue and 
Gold banquet comming up this Friday.  They are going to serve - prepare
yourself - WATER, instead of punch.  Beleive it or not this caused a small
uproar from at least one sister.  This provided a wonderful opprotunity for
my wife to explain to the parents that 'if the scouts have a good time then
the 'activity' was a success'.  We don't have to spend alot of money to have
a good time!  Such a simple idea.  It opens the doors for people to SERVE each
other - money doesn't cut it - its just a tool.  Maybe thats it - we were
getting too close to lip service - want a good activity?  Hire someone to come
and speak etc..  Now we will do the speaking etc..  Neat stuff maynard!
(expression from an oatmeal cereal commercial)

I'm grateful that some of the poorer wards will have a nice budget for their
activities - and I much prefer being around humble people anyway - so I am 
also grateful that the 'well to do wards' get to grow also.

DAVE

    
    
    How is this a progression towards a united order?  I thought being in
    the united order required us to sacrifice what we can to the building
    up of the church and kingdom of God.  With the elimination of the
    budget, that means to me that I will end up donating less than before. 
    To me that is not a sacrifice, but a blessing.  
    
    If you are referring to the fact that units will be more equal in that
    there will be less to distinguish well to do wards from poor wards,
    then I can see how some sacrifices will have to be made.  I think one
    of the things is that the wards will have to cut down on socials and
    activities and have to spend more time and resources administering to
    the spiritual needs of the members and not the physical needs.  I guess
    what will happen is the members with punch and cookies testimonies will
    have to find out what the church is really about.
    
    Another thing, I don't think being poor has anything to do with being
    humble.  Humility can be a trait that is developed by people
    irregardless of how wealthy they are.  Is President Benson humble?  I
    know quite a few people who are wealthy and they are fairly humble.  On
    the other hand, I know quite a few people who are dirt poor and they
    are snotty, stuck up brats.
    
    scott
    

    I like the new program.  I like it when the Church causes us to stretch
    and improve.  Aside from budget concerns, I think this will be the type
    of thing where we'll look back and figure it was worth much more than
    the money saved.  Besides, as somebody pointed out to me (I mildly
    disagreed at the time, but, hey, I can change my mind) this may allow a
    lot of money to be freed up so we can afford to send missionaries to
    countries that are now opening up.
    
    Steve

    
    
    I am pleased to see the changes in the Budget program.  We've had
    a few bumps along the way and of course, will have more, but this
    change was needed. BTW, this change didn't come overnight. I checked
    back in gen. conference talks for several years back and found that
    the brethren have been talking about this. Boyd K. Packer, in a
    talk given to Stake Presidents in 4/88 pleaded with them to consider
    ways to reduce expenditures and pare back activities; relieving the
    burden from members with lesser means. In our ward, we're still
    adjusting to the fact that we need to be more creative in our
    activities, encouraging more fellowshipping without the layout of 
    funds. 
    
    As far as the this being a step toward the Law of Consecration, I
    don't believe that it was designed specifically with that in mind, 
    although some may disagree with me. I see where people draw the
    parallels, and it makes for good conversation and speculation. 
    I see a better case being made for the church avoiding any possi-
    bilities of being taxed. In the coming decade there will be much
    scrutiny given to churchs' funding and as we all know, the gov't
    would love to have new sources of tax revenue. 
    
    In our Stake, there is a renewed missionary effort with an emphasis 
    toward part-member families. This is great! We now can devote more
    resources, ie. time, to this rather than plan activities to raise
    enough money to help pay stake budget.
    
    Kevin

    As for my opinion about the new funding, I think I will take and "wait
    and see" position.  I belong to one of those "wealthy" stakes, I guess. 
    The benefits I saw was that the stake provided opportunities to people
    who otherwise would could not afford the activity.  I mean things such
    as funding the Temple Bus, a yearly mega youth event (Temple Trip, ski
    trip, Palmyra Trip, etc.)  Now these things have either gone away or
    are in jeopardy of not happening because some people cannot afford
    them.  As counselor to the Single Adult/Young Single Adult
    Organizations, this cut in funds is devasting the organizaions because
    these two organizations do nothing but activities.
    
    ON the positive side, I am personally relieved to have that budget
    money to pay off other bills.  Aside from the practical, I also see a
    shift in visions of the Church.  What I mean is that for many of us,
    the Church is a way of living.  WE look to it for all kinds of temporal
    stuff, like finding us jobs, repairing our homes, moving us, helping us
    with our finances, planning trips, etc.  Of course, all of this is done
    via the "auxiliary organizations", but I wonder if over the years the
    Mormon culture was creating or expecting of the Church for it to fill
    every need, social, cultural, religious, financial, etc.  MY OPINION is
    that this shift in financing will re-focus us all on seeing the Church
    as a church, and that the church is a vehicle for the Gospel, and that
    the Gospel is a message of hope, forgiveness, and eternal
    possibilities, the message of Christ.
    
    What an interesting time we live in.  
    
    Paul
    

Just a quick note to explain my earlier entry (.2):

I didn't mean to imply that wealthy and poor implied vainity and humility
respectivily (as per note .3).  The ward we left 'out in the country' had its
ritzy members - but they wore blue jeans etc..  Money wasn't a status symbol.
In this ward it is a status symbol.  All I was trying to say was that I felt
the budget changes would give us some 'fresh country air' so to speak and I
was looking forward to the changes.  Out in the Black Forest Branch my fondest
memories are of service projects - maybe we'll get to do more service now
because of monetary constraints.  

I think the new budget is similar to tossing your TV out the window.
What do you do now (for activities) - read books, play board games, take
a walk around the block.  I feel closer as a family when we do these things.
But the TV limits us (its so easy - spending money is so easy...).  I'm glad
the new budget happened.  Now to work on the TV :-)


DAVE

    Yeah!  So true, 'cause I'm poor AND vain ...
    
    Steve

    One benefit that the new guidelines will have is encouraging families
    to take the lead in training their children.  I work in the youth
    program, and have had a lot of trouble in the past getting the parents
    to do anything more than complain that we were not having a good
    enough program for their youth.
    
    One lady came up to me and told me that she hoped I would be able
    to make her son an Eagle scout.  The emphasis on teaching and learning
    in the home will be a good change for some of these families.
    
    Our yearly ward temple trip is cancelled, and stake youth activities
    have been pared down somewhat.  I like it, I like it.
                                                         
    Jim
    

RE: <<< Note 307.9 by ALLVAX::MCKINNEY >>>

>    Our yearly ward temple trip is cancelled...

What happens to those who live 450 miles, say, from the nearest Temple and
would like to go at least once a year but cannot do so on their own?

The Washington DC Temple shortened their hours recently. On Tuesdays, 
Wednesdays, and Thursdays, the Temple opens at noon now instead of 7am. 
Given the timing, this is obviously a reflection of reduced Temple
attendance under the new budget procedure. A lot of wards can no longer
afford Temple trips. 

Help me understand why this is a good thing. 

/kevin

    re: 307.10
    
    This is a bad thing.  More, it has become increasingly difficult for
    Wards to, for example, charter buses because they can't ask for members
    to contribute towards bus fare.  Our Stake is having a bad time with
    this, too.  I think that this aspect of the new budget program has more
    to do with the IRS than with benefitting the membership.  Ideas are
    being worked with to help, but it is very difficult and painful. 
    I think that leadership (at all levels) feels like its hands are pretty 
    much tied.
    
    
    Steve

Hi Kevin,

From my viewpoint, I think that in general the new budget procedure is a good
thing because it means LDS families are paying less to the Church.  I need to
digress for a moment and explain to the non-LDS that in the past, LDS families
have been paying approximately 12-14% of their gross income to the Church,
quite a large financial strain on anyone's budget.  With the new budget, the
Church has reduced this strain, and in so doing is saying in effect: "Ok,
Bishops, you have less money to operate with.  You will need to be more
prayerful and wise in your use of the Lord's money.  You will have to re-examine
your priorities."  From my viewpoint, this lower financial strain and
re-examination is a good thing.

One of the effects of the new budget is that responsibilities are being shifted
from the Ward to the Family, and to me this is a good thing.  I'm a rebel in a
lot of ways, and I dislike centralized organizations.  I prefer that the
decision making process be as low as possible so people can determine their
own destiny rather than having the "higher ups" do it.  My Priesthood leaders
used to give me an assignment to do so many Temple Endowments, but they don't
do that any more. Now, they ask me to make my own commitment as to what I will
do.  This is great!  They're asking me to be responsible for myself!  Part of
my decision making process is to determine how to get to the Temple for a cost
I can afford.

>The Washington DC Temple shortened their hours recently. On Tuesdays, 
>Wednesdays, and Thursdays, the Temple opens at noon now instead of 7am. 
>Given the timing, this is obviously a reflection of reduced Temple
>attendance under the new budget procedure.

I think we have to be a bit careful in saying why the Washington Temple hours
have been reduced.  The new budget has only been in effect for two months,
and I am skeptical that it would have had enough effect on Temple attendance
(especially since this is Winter) such that the Temple officials would have
had time to see a trend taking place and react to it.  I could be wrong though.

I'm enjoying this conversation and would like to hear more reactions to the
new budget.

Allen

I feel the use of charted busses has not been very cost effective!

For example, I can put my wife and myself and another couple in my hatchback
and go to the Temple (1000 miles round trip) for about $30/couple for gas &
tolls.  We can stay at the Church apartments for $36/couple.  Add about
$15/couple for food, and we can make the trip for about $80/couple; if the
apartments aren't available, then we'll have to stay in a Motel and the cost
will be about $100/couple. When we went on Ward excursions, we were paying
something like $150/couple (It's been several years since we went on a rented
bus and I don't remember the costs back then very well; they would be higher
today).

Hopefully, the new budget procedure will cause local leaders to re-examine
their methods and find more cost effective ways of achieving their goals.

Even more hopefully, they will get out of the business of "running my life"
and let me be responsible for that!

Allen

    <to take the lead in training their children.  I work in the youth
    <program, and have had a lot of trouble in the past getting the parents
    <to do anything more than complain that we were not having a good
    <enough program for their youth.
    
    <One lady came up to me and told me that she hoped I would be able
    <to make her son an Eagle scout.  The emphasis on teaching and learning
    <in the home will be a good change for some of these families.
    
    This get's my goat.  Why is it that people who have kids in the youth
    programs don't understand that the program is not a substitute for
    them and there responsibilities.  If someone is complaining that a
    program is not good enough for there kids, then tell them, "I'm glad to
    hear about your concern, what can you do to help?"  Sort of like, if
    you don't like the way things are being done then don't complain.  If
    you can do better then great, let's get you more involved.  If you
    can't then quit yer belly achin.  
    
    About the lady who came up and said she hoped that you could make her
    son an eagle scout has got some learning to do.  First, the boy has to
    make his own decision that he wants to get the award.  Second, in most
    instances, the kids who go on to receive eagle awards are the ones who
    families encouraged and helped them to get it.  There parents were
    usually heavily involved in the scouting activities.  People do exactly
    what they want to do, nothing more and nothing less.  If the kid does
    not want to get the award, nothing is going to make him.
    
    I too, am glad to see the new budget procedure take effect.  It will be
    interesting to see how it affects the members.  I don't think the new
    policy is the cause of the low attendance at the washington temple.  A
    family moved out here from Ma. and he said they went to the temple on a
    tues and they were holding up the session for them because they needed
    the bodies.  This was before the policy was announced.  I think it
    might have been happening before the policy was announced.  Perhaps the
    new policy might make the low attendance more noticeable because
    attendance might be lower than normal. 
    
    scott

    As to the lady that asked you to make her son an Eagle scout ...
    
    I would have been tempted to respond with, 
    
    	"Sure!  Your son is now an Eagle Scout!"
    
    ;^) ;^) ;^) 
    
    Steve

In the interest of prolonging this debate still further, I'd like to
toss out another issue with which I have been wrestling since this
thing came out. 

When I joined the Church and was told about the principle of tithing, 
I understood it and recognized it as a commandment. Nevertheless, it 
required some adjustments in how I thought about charitable contributions.
In my previous church, it was considered enormously pious to bring three
dollars to church each week, although bringing that same three dollars to
the supermarket would have been a humorless joke. 

Through a deeply personal experience that I do not need to go into 
here, the Lord taught me about the significance of tithing and how 
there are blessings in this world that money simply cannot buy. Even 
so, such blessings are predicated on obedience to the commandments, 
of which tithing is one. I came to understand that the paying of
tithing was a sacred obligation. The Lord has blessed me for it ever 
since, both materially and spiritually.

As a result, I think of tithing as a part of my substance that is
consecrated to the Lord and his sacred purposes. I would calculate the
necessary amount with great care lest I shortchange the Lord. I could
not imagine that any part of it could be wasted or spent frivolously.
This was money dedicated to the building of Zion! I trusted and
expected the General Authorities to direct these resources to such
sacred purposes. 

Budget money, on the other hand, I never thought of as sacred. It was
what the bishop asked of us, not the Lord. It went into our local
activities/maintenance/programs/whatever, which affected me and in
which I was involved. So if the bishop needed X bucks, or an extra wad
of cash for some special program, I was happy to give it. Although I
trusted and expected the bishop to use this money for ward purposes, I
realized that such purposes were more mundane than the Lord's. If we
wanted to spend money on plastic plates for a ward dinner because we
didn't want to wash 300 dishes, that was fine with me. 

Now under the new budget procedure, all budget money comes out of
tithing funds. It is hugely disconcerting for me to see tithing money
go towards local budget purposes, because my reasons for giving
tithing money were different and segregated from my reasons for giving
budget money. 

Now some of you must be scratching your heads and wondering why I'm 
bellyaching about having to contribute *less* money. And besides, a 
buck is a buck, no matter what bucket it goes into, right? What 
difference does it make?

Well, it makes a big difference to me. And when I see or hear stories
of people in another ward arguing and getting upset over how the relatively
scarce budget bucks are to be allocated ("Why does *that* organization get
$3 more a month than *my* organization!!"), it unnerves me. 

Moreover, it reminds me of those days in my previous church.

I know the Lord is trying to teach me yet another lesson in how to 
think about charitable contributions. But it hasn't sunk in yet. 

/kevin

    Hi, Kevin!
    
    Great points for discussion!  I guess I always thought of any money
    as being given to the Lord, whether it was tithing, fast, missionary,
    budget or whatever.  In the past few years I've been in positions where
    I was involved in spending the Lord's money.  That carries a lot of
    burden, too, if I think about what's happening.  For example, it wasn't
    long ago that I signed a contract on behalf of the Church that amounted
    to about $20K - of the Lord's money.  On the other hand, not long ago I
    cancelled a bid that would have cost $50K - of the Lord's money.  Best
    thing to do to keep my sanity is to look at it as "business" and run it
    the best I can so that I can face my maker with a clear conscience
    about my stewardships.  
    
    The problem is, it's not the amounts that count.  The Lord cares about 
    how well we do with what we have.  The money is just as sacred, whether it 
    is $5 or $50K and we all have responsibility in making sure that we handle 
    our stewardships remembering whose money it really is.
    
    Another way I look at it is that it doesn't really matter to me how I
    make my contributions.  Tithing is neat because it's one of the few
    commandments where there is a set limit.  You can't overshoot.  But,
    I've found that no matter how I make my contributions the Lord knows
    and He blesses me.  For example, in relation to my calling I can
    supposedly bill the Stake for postage, mileage, phone bills and other 
    reimbursement associated with conducting the business of my calling.
    But I don't.  I figure that even though nobody else sees it, the Lord
    knows and that is enough.
    
    I think that a lot of members, me included, will have a tendency to
    subsidize their stewardships with personal funds or other contributions
    that are unsolicited.  They will do so unselfishly and anonymously.
    You probably won't hear a thing about it, but it will be manifest in
    how smoothly and miraculously things will run.  And, who knows, with a
    little help from above some of it may truly be miraculous.  Perhaps
    more will learn as I am learning that the Lord blesses us well for this 
    kind of unselfish sacrifice.
    
    Steve

    A couple of things:
    
    RE: .10 - I should make it clear that it is our youth temple trip
              that is cancelled, and as far as I know our ward and stake
              temple trips will still go on as usual.
    
     I also have usually felt that ANY money I gave to the Lord was 
     concecrated to make his Kingdom go forward.  Wether it needed heat 
     in the winter, a paper plate, or help for the poor.
                                     
    I will also hope that this new budget program will prevent people
    from being so stingy with their wealth.  I frequently have people
    give me reciepts (to get refunds) for things they have had to buy 
    in the carrying out of their calling; a 1/2 gallon of ice cream, a 
    can of tomatoe paste, a new pen, etc...
    
    I think that I have made some covenants to share what I have (the
    excess) to build up the kingdom.  If I have it, I gladly share it.
    I hope this new program will encourage cheerful giving.
    
    Jim
    

>    RE: .10 - I should make it clear that it is our youth temple trip
>              that is cancelled, and as far as I know our ward and stake
>              temple trips will still go on as usual.
    
Hmmmm...   My Bishop's counselor told me at Mutual Tuesday evening that they
had just received a new directive from SLC in which permission was given for
fundraising for youth Temple trips.  Anyone know more about this?

Allen

    
    re: -1:
    
    Yes, We'd all be eager to get confirmation on this one. Given the
    spirit of the program I wouldn't think fundraising would be allowed,
    but...who knows? 
    
    Kevin ........

Re .16

>when I see or hear stories
>of people in another ward arguing and getting upset over how the relatively
>scarce budget bucks are to be allocated ("Why does *that* organization get
>$3 more a month than *my* organization!!"), it unnerves me. 

I don't blame you, Kevin!  It would unnerve me too!  The only comments I've
heard in my Ward are positive ones--we're all glad that the LDS are paying
enough tithing that it can cover budget items.

A few years ago, the Church began using Tithing funds to cover most of the
building program, and now it is covering budget items.  This trend is great!
I think that eventually we'll only have one fund in the Church (tithing) and
everything will come from that--no missionary fund and no fast offerings,
but this is only my uninformed opinion.

Allen

Kevin,

There may be a pragmatic reason why fundraising for Youth temple trips is
being allowed.  It costs us about $35-50/youth, and that amount may be
more than can be currently taken from Tithing funds.

Allen

    re:.22
    
    Allen,
    
    Could very well be! In our stake it have become popular to somehow
    connect the new budget program to the law of consecration and the 
    United Order. I personally believe that there are some pragmatic
    reasons behind it all. Many stakes must have called in with their
    concerns for this modification to be made so quickly, if it is true.
    
    Kevin.......

    I have payed a true and complete tithe only since January, 1989.
    My husband, not a member of the church, has always been opposed
    to tithing, kneeling in prayer, and a few other principles.  For
    years I did not pay tithing on my income, out of respect for his
    wishes.  Over a year ago, however, several events brought me to
    a knowledge that it was time (and past!) to pay tithing.
    
    I prepared and taught a family home evening lesson on tithing, using
    a quote from President Harold B. Lee:  No person knows the principle
    of tithing until he pays tithing.
    
    At the conclusion of the lesson, I asked my husband to support :) 
    me in paying tithing.  He agreed - for my salary only!  It's been
    tough, and my pesonal savings account is usually empty but it's
    right, and it feels good.  Nevertheless, several recent events have
    brought me to a renewed awareness that *all* my money - and everything
    I "own" - belongs to the Lord.
    
    I trust Him, and know He has the perspective I don't.  So as the
    church goes through these changes, I lean on my testimony, and pray
    that my brethren entrusted with the administration of the Lord's
    church will be strengthened.
    
    Now, for my part!  I've *got* to become a better steward of the
    90% that's left.  (At this point, I'm reminded of a cartoon in which
    a man walks away from the IRS office, saying,  "I don't know if
    I can live on my income, the government won't let me try.")
    
    I pray the blessings of peace and love for you on this Sabbath.
    
    aq
    
                                                               

    Good note, Ann!  Reminds me of something from a speech given by
    Iaccoca.  Can't quote, but the gist of it was that America faces a
    real problem when we allow our youth to squander the money we earn.  We
    have responsibility for making sure the money is invested in worthwhile
    endeavors (education, creating wealth rather than just redistributing
    it, saving).  My wive was commenting recently that all the money being
    used for drugs, alcohol and so forth could sure go far to take care of
    the problems with homelessness, medical costs, feeding the poor and so
    forth.  Instead, the funds are sometimes even used to add to these
    problems.  Would that all could look at that 90% the way that 
    you do ...
    
    Steve

    I believe note .24 came very close to answering one of the original
    questions in reply .3.  What is the connection with this program and
    the law of consecration?
    
    Let me add my perspective on this issue.  If we understand the law of
    consecration then we understand that ALL our worldly goods and talents
    and skills are the Lords.  He places us as a steward over these
    blessings, and then we are responsible to determine (under the guidance
    of the Holy Spirit in sincere prayer) how these blessings are to be
    used.  In all cases the goods we receive are to be used for the
    building of the kingdom of God; ie. Church of Jesus Christ and
    families.
    
    With this announcement the Church as an organization has said that it 
    would live by the law of tithing for the operation of the Church 
    (which has been the Lord's plan all along).  But we, who have consecrated 
    ourselves to the building of the Kingdom are now responsible again for 
    the way some funds are used in the building of the Kingdom.  We must
    use them for other building purposes instead of for the Church 
    organization.  We have just had our stewardship expanded where WE must
    choose the proper use, not the Church leaders.
    
    When the announcement came a number of things seemed to strike a cord.
    I heard that we were to do good with the extra funds and that we were to 
    focus our attention on the righteous goals of our family to
    help others.  Therefore, I did not hear I had extra money to take a
    vacation or buy extra comforts; I heard that the money is still the
    Lord's; use it for His purposes; and be a good steward.  For many in
    the Church I'm sure this is just business as usual; they were already
    doing this.
    
    By the way I'm so happy that this has taken place.  I've always
    wondered why the Church felt it needed more then the tenth the Lord
    specified.  I've traved to many parts of the world where what we waste 
    in the Church programs could provide basic needed materials.  The
    people in these places had strong faith since it was required for
    simple day-to-day existance.  It will be great to see how far a few loaves 
    of bread and fishes will go among the thousands in the Amercian wards.  
    This is going to be a great faith building expirience for the Church.
    
    Also, relative to temple trips: Our stake in Nashua determined long ago
    that it was cheaper to rent minivans to go to the temple than to rent a
    bus.  BUT they still rented the bus because the people liked the social
    aspects.  It is interesting to note our Stake still is planning bus
    temple trips with it's added cost.