Conference tecrus::mormonism

     
    I personally feel there is a great need to control population.I think
    we are heading for disaster if something isnt done.We are using up our
    resources,and,poluting our invironment,which will lead to great
    suffering around the world,even worst than now.I believe God has given
    man the responsibility of his world,and,that he would expect us to make
    decisions that would solve our problems.I believe that limiting family
    size,is one of the decisions he would expect us to make,at this time.I
    dont know the present stand of the LDS church on this,but,I would like
    to see the church address this issue.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

   RE: 259.1 <DNEAST::PUSHARD_MIKE>

   >I personally feel there is a great need to control population.I think
   >we are heading for disaster if something isnt done.We are using up our
   >resources,and,poluting our invironment,which will lead to great suffering
   >around the world,even worst than now.

       Hi, Mike.  I'm not LDS, but personally, I think population control us a
   very personal issue.  The producing of children is more than just a baby
   factory; it is the result of the love of two people.

       I think that the focus should rather be on how we can stop destroying
   our environment and manage it properly.  With proper management, the
   environment can support increased population.

   MHO (My humble opinion)
   Tony Balsamo

    I agree with Tony.  Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I've always thought
    that we haven't even begun to tap the resources available.  Being
    a Star Trek fan, I share the vision of turning other worlds into
    wastelands and preserving the Earth.  At first, that may sound harsh,
    but if we, for example, did strip mining on asteroids we would probably
    not upset the balance of things.  If we dumped wastes into deep
    space, there would likely not be anyone that would be affected by
    them.  If we robbed Venus of its oxygen, no big deal.  If we
    'contaminated' Mars with viruses and utterly destroyed its current
    environment, but made it now habitable by other species it would
    be a benefit to life forms.  And, we could extract water from Mars and 
    probably other planets as needed.  May sound funny for a Mormon, but I 
    figure that we limit ourselves when we think the Earth is the only 
    resource we have been given or that it can stand anything we do to it.
    The solar system is ours and we are only using/abusing a small portion
    of it.
    
    Steve

    Re .0:
    
    The LDS is a super-fast growing Christian sect. Like any
    conversion-intensive denomination, they (and others) play a numbers
    game. There are a finite number of bodies they can reach with their
    message and whoever gets the most bodies wins (fundamentalist
    Christians play the same game BTW).
    
    Ergo, if you decrease the number of children per family, there will
    be fewer bodies to convert with the same or greater number of
    "converters" out in the "conversion" marketplace (so to speak).
    Result: LDS takes a hit while the others surge ahead.
    
    No wonder the Roman Catholic Church doesn't encourage birth control!
    
    No flames intended BTW.....
    
    Mark

    
    ref .2,.3
    
      I can understand your points,and,agree,that,if certain things could
    be accomplished,that we may not have to consider contolling our growth.
    
      I,at this point,dont see it coming together in that way.We cant hope
    for a solution,and,ignore some of the cause.I am not suggesting that
    our Goverments institute laws,but,that an awareness be made on a large
    scale,to encourage smaller families.I,as an american citizen,dont get a
    first hand view of the problem,but,I do know,by reading,that it
    exists.What would our country look like if we had a Billion +
    population?I dont think God will correct it for us,and,until we do have
    a better control on pollution,and tapping of new resources,we should
    consider this option.I am a Star Trek fan too,but,the earth is all we
    have right now,so,we better take better care of it.Yes,having children
    is a personal matter,but,managing our growth,is also.If I was sharing a
    food supply with my next door neighbor,it wouldnt be right for my
    family to use up my neighbors food because I didnt limit the size of my
    family.This is my perspective.
    

    Actually, there is a misconception - er, wrong idea - that the Church
    encourages folks to have lots of children.  It is that the Church
    encourages parents to have as many children as they feel they can
    support.  And, the Church encourages prayerful consideration on
    the part of parents as to how many kids they should have.  So, it
    remains a very personal decision.  My wife and I have two so far.
    We'll have more if and when we feel we can support them.  Others can 
    support more kids.  Others can support less.
    
    Steve

    
    
    Consider this,What happens with the people that cannot support their
    families?Who will support them?Do we leave them to the consequences of
    their decision,or,do we show compassion and help them?Then what happens
    to those who could support their OWN,but,now that they help others,can
    no longer do it?I believe our decisions cannot be strickly
    individual,but,must take into account the life around us,not only on
    our street or city,but,in the world.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Ah.  Once a person is in the world, they need support.  Those who
    cannot support their own will add burden to society which must render
    that support.  I don't want to get into the anti-life, anti-abortion
    issues.  You can probably guess where my feelings lie.
    
    By the way, when I talk about 'support', I include health of the
    mother.  This has been for us the biggest reason that we only have
    two kids right now.  Other considerations have included our ability
    to feed, shelter and clothe them.  We have not added buying a house
    to our list of requirements.  Nor, have we sought guarantees.  (I
    could still become unemployed, for example.)  It takes courage,
    planning and preparation to have a kid.  Just having a kid without
    this is not fair to you, the kid or society.  No one asks you to
    run faster than you are able.  And, we consulted with the Lord 
    before having each of our kids.
    
    I wish I could add some sources to this.  This could become heated.
    Maybe one of these days I'll see what I can dig up.  Seems to me that
    there was something on this a few years ago in the Ensign, maybe
    even in a conference issue.  Most of my opinion has been formed as a 
    result of consultation with Church leaders.  I have found it to be
    in harmony with my understanding of Church doctrine.  I used to think 
    that the name of the game was popping kids off as fast as possible.
    But, I was trained and counseled otherwise.
    
    Steve

    When discussing this issue in an LDS context, there are several things
    to keep in mind. 
    
    1) Latter-day Saints believe that all men lived with God as spirits
    before coming to earth to experience mortal life. Coming to earth has a
    definite purpose, and there are those who yet await this necessary
    experience. When we become parents, we are partners with God in giving
    these spirits the chance to come to earth. If we choose not to be
    parents, or to unnecessarily limit the size of our families, then we
    deny ourselves the blessing that children bring, and we deny, or at
    least delay, the spirits that are waiting the opportunity to come to a
    home where they will be taught to love and serve God. The command has
    been given to "multiply and replenish the earth", and Latter-Day Saints
    believe that this instruction is still in full effect. 
    
    2) Having said that, we must also remember that the Lord has said that
    we should do all things in wisdom and prudence, and not run faster than
    we are able. Thus, no one is expected to have children that they do not
    have the strength to bear and nurture. The health of the mother is
    especially of paramount importance and should be preserved. 
    
    3) We need not be concerned that the earth is not able to support God's
    children. He created it for that purpose, and has said: 
                                                        
         I, the Lord, stretched out the heavens, and built the earth, my
         very handwork; and all things therein are mine. 
         
         For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea,
         I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of
         men to be agents unto themselves. (D&C 104:14,17)

    4) The Lord has commanded us to subdue and take care of the earth,
    which he has created for us. We have a responsibility to see that his
    creations are not abused by irresponsible and selfish acts on our part. 
    

    I do not personally believe that the problem is over population. There
    are vast stretches of this planet that are almost devoid of living
    creatures. Our challenge is to show our faith that God can enlighten
    man to solve the challenges of managing the air, water, food and energy
    supplies to meet the needs of mankind without destroying the planet. 
    
    For example, consider the potential benefits from such a development as
    cheap fusion power (if some of the recent research pans out). The
    problems of desalination of sea water, moving water to where it is
    needed, transporting food, and the production of energy could quickly
    be eliminated. 
                                  
    There are those who limit the size of their families so that they can
    better afford the fancy house, car, boat, vacations, etc., or because
    they do not want the inconvenience and work that children entail. 
    
    I appreciate what Tony said about this being an intensely personal
    issue, and I whole heartedly agree. Though the Lord has given some
    instructions, these decisions must be left to each person individually
    and should not be forced upon men by religious or legislative edict. I
    am particularly concerned about those countries (notably China) that
    impose severe penalties for having over a certain number of children. 
    
    I believe the greatest work that God can call us to is the work of
    raising a righteous family, and to thus help to accomplish his purpose
    for creating this earth. 
    
    In Christ's Love,
    Rich

The earth is not overpopulated.  It will be a long time before it is.  There
are more than enough resources to support billions more people.

The problem, as has been stated, is that a lot of these resources (land,
environment, etc.) are not being managed well enough.  The global awareness
needs to be placed there...

Chad

    I heard it once said that all of the earth's population could be placed
    on Austrailia and live at the same population density as Denmark does
    now. The rest of the entire planet would be empty of people. 
    
    I don't advocate that we shoot for a global population density similar
    to Denmark, but it gives one pause to think about the claims of those
    who want us to believe that the earth is almost filled up with people.
    
    I live in Montana, and every time I travel across the Western states of
    Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Oregon, Washington, Nevada,
    Arizona, etc., I marvel that you can travel for many miles without
    seeing *any* other person, except those in other cars on the road. 
                                                                       
    Rich

    
    Of course,I dont agree that Population is not a problem.I do agree that
    there is a severe mismanagement of our resources.
    
    I have lived in Maine most of my life,and,the major part outside of
    major towns or cities.I see the results of population surges here in
    Maine.More crime,people cant walk the street at nite without fear of 
    an attack.Murders have increased.Taxes keep going up to provide schools 
    and services to the ever increasing populace.I want some breathing
    room.There are severe problems in other countries.We need to slow down,
    take a breather,deal with the problems,get things under control,then
    procede.This may not be possible,but,to say things will work out in the
    long run,to me,is not a solution,but,is turning our heads away so as
    not to see it.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    	Yes, it's me again. I haven't bothered you guys in a while,
    	have been read-only for several months now. 
    
    	Coupla points:
    
    	1) I've always felt that "fill the Earth and subdue it" was
    	intended as an invitation, not a command. Rather like saying
    	"have a seat" to someone who comes into your office. Can anyone
    	cite Biblical or Mormon scripture showing that God *commands*
    	us to have children, that it is our *duty* to do so?
                                                  
    	2) Pardon me, but I found note .3 appalling. We DO NOT KNOW
    	FOR WHAT PURPOSE GOD CREATED THE OTHER GREAT CELESTIAL BODIES.
    	WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT PROJECTS "HE" HAS GOING ON THESE PLANETS,
    	OR THE VASTNESS OF EMPTY SPACE FOR THAT MATTER. We certainly
    	do not have the right to desecrate them in any way for our own
    	benefit, and I hardly think that "He" created them to be man's
    	junkyard. 
    
    	3) There is certainly enough room on the planet for each person
    	to have his own square mile, but how much of that room is livable,
    	especially considering our system of economic exploitation,
    	consumption of all of the "good" land by the rich, lack of farming
    	knowledge and skills by many people, climatic adaptations (remember
    	Reagan's idea of housing Hatian refugees in Montana?). And,
    	is there really enough food etc for "billions more" people?
    	Maybe so, if we let "them" eat insects.
    
    	Neal/B

    Neal,
    
    Didn't mean to appall.  But, I stand by my note.  We generate garbage
    and toxic waste.  It's going to go somewhere.  Besides, in the spirit
    of tending the Earth, God would probably tell us something similar
    for the other planets.  Was not the Sun created for our use?  And,
    wouldn't it have seemed a little funny for God to tell Moses, '...
    and when you get to Mars, I want you to tend and keep that, too.'
    
    Steve

    To Barnette in .13
    
    When God said to Adam and Eve, "Multiply and replenish the earth"
    (Genesis 1:28), I don't think he was giving an invitation.  Rather, he was
    commanding them to "multiply".
    
    I recently had a similar discussion with a Born Again who informed me
    that God never gave the command to reproduce, but rather "to extend the
    borders of the Garden of Eden til it (not human kind) filled the earth. 
    I had never heard such an interpretation to the Genesis story of Adam
    and Eve.  Now in your note I am inferring that you hold a similar
    belief.  If so, is this a common belief among Born
    Agains/Fundamentalists?  
    
   Paul
    

    
    	Re .14, Steve, I am half-relieved that you are only being
    half-serious in your note. 
    
    >    Didn't mean to appall.  But, I stand by my note.  We generate garbage
    >    and toxic waste.  It's going to go somewhere.  Besides, in the spirit
    
    Tell me this, how much garbage and toxic wastes did the Native
    people of this American land generate? What did they do with
    it? I dare say, from everything that I've read so far they
    were quite a bit happier than we.
    
    Neal/B
    

    
    Re .15 (Paul), in my own beliefs, which are far afield of born-again
    Fundamentalist, there is no command for *me* to multiply and replentish
    the human population of the Earth. I have the choice in accord with
    my own plan for spiritual growth. I'd rather not get into my own
    understanding of conditions that existed in Genesis times, and what
    God intended in Genesis 1:28, in this topic. It would produce a giant
    rat-hole. (However, if you'd like to join me in AITG::RELIGION...8^)
               
    Suffice it to say that, what we have done today, and the conditions
    that exist, were not what "He" had in mind at the time. (IMHO)
                              
    In my RSV Bible, Genesis 1:28 reads, "And God blessed them, and
    God said to them, [*said*, not "commanded", NB] Be fruitful and
    multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it..." I don't interpret
    this as a command for me to go out and start making babies, wife
    or otherwise.
    
    Neal/B
    Neal/B

>    Suffice it to say that, what we have done today, and the conditions
>    that exist, were not what "He" had in mind at the time. (IMHO)

     While I agree that mankind has not treated the earth as we should,
     I believe that the Father "had in mind" a precise understanding then
     of what the earth's condition today would be.  He gave this direction
     to Adam and Eve anyway.

    
    
    I can understand the need to multiply the species,but,also understand
    the need to not overrun the earth,and,in the process,destroy our system
    of life.I believe in a logical,sensable God.One that would expect us to
    use our brains in the same way.What would happen if any animal species
    was to overpopulate their feeding grounds?
    
    The Christian belief teaches us to be in control of our bodies and
    minds.Specificly,partaking of harmful substances is an insult to
    ourselves,and,God.Then should we pollute and destroy the very air that
    we breath,and,earth that we till?I think not.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    I have read with interest other people's views as to "Overpopulation".
    Actually, I believe that people are in control as to the size of
    the family they want.  However, the very reason we were sent here
    was to get a body.  Personnally, I came from a family of 5 children
    and I am glad my parents did not decide to limit their family,
    otherwise, I would not have been born.
                                         
    LDS families have a reputation for large families.  I have 5 children.
    In our ward, the average family size ranges from 6-8.  Everyone
    takes care of their own needs and all have a good food storage program.
    I also know that many contribute to the welfare fund for those families
    in temporary need.  We also participate in the cannery, food bank,
    and other service projects to help the community.  Almost everyone
    needs a little help sometime and we all pitch in.  This is not only
    for LDS families, but whereever help is needed.  
    
    In my opinion, we all are down here for a purpose, I believe that
    purpose is to obtain a body.  But, what we make of that life while
    we are down here is up to us.  Limiting your family is a choice
    you must make for yourself.  I believe that you can be just as
    successful raising a family of 5 as you can with only 1.  (Cheaper
    by the dozen!!!) It takes careful planning and the willingness 
    to share.  Is that so bad???
    
    Louise

    Not everyone has the benifits that we do,in fact,there are a lot more
    people who have nowhere near what we have.
    
     
    Consider this:
    
        If we were allowed only an acre of land to live on,and,had to
    provide for ourselves,the food to survive from that acre.If that acre
    could only support 5 people,at current agricultural knowledge,Could you
    justify having a family of 7 or 8 and possibly watch some of them die
    of starvation?This happens in many parts of the world today.Its hard
    to identify with that if you dont live it.Take responsibility for not 
    only ourselves,but,those brothers and sisters who have no hope.When we
    solve these problems,then,we can procede.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
>         I believe that the Father "had in mind" a precise understanding then
>     of what the earth's condition today would be.
 
    Hmm. (hymm?). If that's the case, then did "He" have a precise
    understanding that "He" would one day regret having introduced
    Mankind into the Earth in the first place (Gen. 6:6)?
    
    Neal/B

    re: 259.21
    
    While I agree with what you are saying, our having or not having
    families does not change the choices that the rest of the world
    makes.  I can surely sympathize with the deplorable conditions some
    people are required to live in.  But I can only do one small part
    and I believe that is take care of what I have and help my brother
    when and how I can.  I don't see where my having 5 children hurts
    the rest of the world to which you refer.
    
    It seems a little far fetched to me to think that we can solve all
    of the worlds problems.  It would be nice, yes, but realistically, just
    what do you suggest we do individually?  Don't get me wrong, I am
    more than willing to do all I can to help my fellow man.  I just
    don't see where we can change a lifetime of problems and hardships
    of others by limiting our family sizes, or am I missing something here?
                                          
    Louise

Side note.  

Mike,

Could you please put spaces after punctuation marks?  Thanks.  I have a hard
time reading your notes.

Thanks

Chad

    
    I suppose that one person having 5 children instead of 3 wouldnt
    effect things very much,but,what if 1 million people had 5 instead of
    3? It would make a big difference,and,thats what i'm talking about. I
    must take responsibility for not just myself,but,share it with all my
    brothers and sisters. I dont have just my kingdom to think
    about,but,also the Kingdom of God,which is the whole Earth. I believe
    that World problems can be solved.We have the ability but not the
    committment as a whole body. If enough people make the committment,it
    can be done. Thanks for pointing out my lack of spaces. It never
    occurred to me.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

		I believe that in the Lord's eyes there is no reason for
	population control.  The Lord has set all things in order.  He 
	commanded Adam and Eve, (to me, when the Lord asks I do it!), to 
	replenish the earth and have dominion over it.  He also gave them 
	their free agency to do as they wish, but He also gave the punishment 
	for disobedience.  It is found in Doctrine and Covenants 104 :

	17. For the earth is full, and there is enough to spare; yea, I
	    prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men
	    to be agents unto themselves.
	18. Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have
	    made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my
	    gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked,
	    lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment.


	Charles

    
    Then,again,the Lord was speaking to the people of the mid 1800s,not to
    us today.The world of today is a far cry different than then!
    
    It is estimated that,by the year 2000,there will be 50 million cases of
    AIDS,in Africa alone!Aids,the black plague of the eighties.
    
    Murders,robberies,rape,violence.It will all be ten fold.God will not
    protect us.He will not save us from ourselves,only we can do that!
    
    Sorry for the intensity of this,but,I feel very strongly about it.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    	
    	It makes no difference WHEN the Lord said it!  He is the same
    yesterday, today and tomorrow.  What He said to Adam, Abraham, Moses,
    and all the prophets applies to us today.  Just because we are now
    in the last days before the second coming of the Lord does not mean
    that what he has previously said is no longer in effect.  In fact,
    I think that we will see the world degenerate to the depths of
    iniquity that has not been seen since the days of Noah.  In any
    case, this by no means that what He said has no meaning today.
    
    Charles

    
    Does that mean that an "eye for a eye" is still in effect?Should we
    still be sacrificing lambs?
     
    I've heard both arguments within this conference.One that says "this
    was for the people at that time" and, one that says "it doesnt make no
    difference when it was said".I dont buy it! I'm not going around with
    my head in the sand,trying to ignore what is happening in the world.Its
    like trying to ignore a charging Elephant.It will run you down if you
    dont stop it,or,get out of its way.The Lord tells me to take
    responsibility for my situation.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Hmmm.  I don't see how responsibility about the environment equates
    with population control.  If you manage the environment well, you
    can comfortably accomodate many more people than are in the world
    now.  If managed poorly, the world will not support even a tenth
    of its current population.  That's why the Lord commanded us to
    both go forth and multiply and replenish the earth.  In D.& C. He
    also mentions that the world has very abundant resources.  Nothing
    has left.  The materials are all still here (well, except for the
    stuff we've shot into space or converted back into energy).  Our job
    is to figure out how to manage it and increase the opportunities for
    our children.
    
    Steve

     
    Steve,
    
       If the population becomes so great,that,we cannot manage our
    invironment,the end results will be disaster of immense proportion.This
    is how I relate the two.If man overuses and destroys his
    resources,then,he will die.Look around,its happening NOW!
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Michael - what about that scripture in the bible about ' being driven
before the wind and tossed to and fro '.  Sounds to me like the overpopulation
'elephant' you refer to, could be the wind blowing around.  But where 
is the wind headed?  The quote from the Doctrine and Covenants a couple notes
back gives me an anchor - I feel good about the worlds population.  I feel
sheltered from the wind - but I am aware of it.  One other thing - if the 
Lord meant multiply and replenish the earth...only if you feel like it,  why 
didn't he say what he meant?  'Go and do' seems like a commandment.  As for the
eye for an eye thing - his birth and death did away with Moses type laws
(Right!?).  Both this and the Law of Moses was given in ancient scripture.  
But we know the chronological order of these events and the New Testament 
susperseeds the Old Testament when the two conflict.  But I don't recall
reading anywhere where 'multiply and replenish the earth' was/has been taken
away?!?  I don't know you personaly and from experience think this is
dangerous (communicating about emotional issues through written rather than
spoken word) but I couldn't resist.  I too feel strongly about people running
around saying 'we're overpopulated...'.  I hope that the way this was writen 
(or what was written) doesn't offend you.  It was not my intent.  If I was
an eloquent speaker/writer I would probably be in politics - I think there is
a lot of ignorance in the world and IT BUGS ME.

DAVE

    I'm bugged, too ...  politics, aaarrg!
    
    Anyway, improper management of resources to any extent will throttle 
    the earth's capacity to provide for any population.  When that happens
    the responsible thing to do is manage resources properly.  Cutting
    down on consumption may help in the short run, but if mismanagement
    continues, it may have no long term benefit.  (Our current state
    of fiscal confusion in Mass probably has parallel with this idea.)
    
    Population control *still* does not equate with environmental 
    responsibility.  You can increase the population by leaps and bounds 
    and have a wonderful environment.  And, you can reduce the population
    by an order and have a devastating environment.  Or, any combination,
    because the two issues are *not* directly related.
    
    What equates with environmental responsibility is management of
    resources, doing what the Lord told us to do in replenishing the
    earth.
    
    Steve

    
    I agree Dave,that,there is a lot of ignorance in the world.It seems
    like a lot more ignorance than knowledge.This is a bad imbalance,which
    will lead us to great sorrow.Those that can change things for the
    better are far outnumbered by those who cant,wont,or,dont care.The more
    people we have,the more of an imbalance will exist. We will not be
    protected from the "beast",but,will be consumed by him,unless we do
    something to stop him.
    
    I have a great concern,that,we,as people of GOD,are trying to hide
    ourselves behind false notions,that,we have an armour,that cannot be
    penetrated. We spent our time argueing among ourselves,while our real
    foe takes more and more from us.
    
    Steve,
      
    I guess GOD did change something that was before.Thats his perogative
    to do so.I listen to the spirit within me,which he communicates with.
    
    
    I guess I have been stirred by recent happenings here in MAINE. Things
    have changed so much.We cannot feel safe anymore from the Evil ones.A
    friend who was murdered after she sought help from a stranger on the
    highway.It must be dealt with!God did not save her.Her bible still on
    the dashboard,her body thrown in a ditch!
    
    Peace
    Michael

    RE : < Note 259.34 >

    
>    A friend who was murdered after she sought help from a stranger on the
>    highway.It must be dealt with!God did not save her.Her bible still on
>    the dashboard,her body thrown in a ditch!
    

	Michael

		I am so very sorry to hear about your friend, but I think
	you are wrong about God not saving her.  Even though we can not
	understand the ways of God, He does not desert us in our time of
	need.  I recall the story of Alma in the Book of Mormon when he was
	preaching to the people of Ammonihah.  Alma and his companion, Amulek,
	were in prison, while the wicked people took those who were converted
	to the gospel and threw them into the fire.  Amulek wanted to save
	them, but Alma answered him as follows in 

	Alma 14 : 11

		But Alma said unto him : The Spirit constraineth me that I
	must not stretch forth my hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them
	up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this
	thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to
	the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall
	exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the 
	innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily
	against them at the last day.


	Your friend has no more sorry, no more pain or affliction of the 
	physical body, but is in God's peace and love.  May you find peace
	and comfort in Christ for you pain, in His name, Amen.

	Charles

I dont see a relation between evil in society and population.  We are free to
follow God or mammon.  Sorry to hear about your friend.  Sorry to hear that
you don't feel safe in your city anymore but try to look beyond it (feel free
to rise up and try and change it - but looking beyond the immediate troubles
around Maine may give you a better perspective).  BTW I feel the same way
about Colorado Springs.  DAVE

    I'm also sorry to hear about that happening to your friend.
    This may deviate a little, but I seem to recall a Rabbi that wrote
    a book with a title something like, 'Why Bad Things Happen to Good
    People'.  I haven't read it (yet), but I understand it has a lot
    of good thoughts about that kind of thing. In Mass, there has been
    publicity about a man that killed his 3-month old daughter by beating
    her to death.  Ghastly stuff.  Such a precious life was lost.  My
    own little girl is 8-months old.  I *love* little children!  They
    add a shot of innocence to the world that is so needed at this time.
    
    Steve

    
    I feel that my friend is now in Gods hand,but,the scare that was
    inflicted upon her by this evil person,is not erased.She will be helped
    by those that have suffered like her.I feel great outrage over
    this,and,other things that has been going on.I feel a lot of it is
    connected with overpopulation,the problems being too large to
    handle.The jails are overcrowded,and,the courts overrun with pending
    cases,too many to handle.
    
    I have a couple of grandchildren,one,a year old,the other,3 mos. They
    are sweet innocent ones.I wish we could keep them that way! I hope I
    can teach them the good things of life,and,keep them away from the bad,
    but,I know they will make their own choice.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Struck a very sensitive chord with me.  I'm gettin' on my soap box,
    now, so don't anyone take offense.  None is intended.

    Jail overcrowding ... now, *that's* something I have some primary
    knowledge about!  I've been visiting a friend whose sentence the state has
    tried to have unofficially extended by a year.  (At this time, they've
    succeeded in having it extended for three months, and we're not
    talking about any parole, we're talking about serving after he served
    his full sentence.)  This business about possibly having to release 
    convicted murderers with little time served because of overcrowding is 
    very much like the propaganda that the state promulgates about
    possibly having to cut vital services to make ends meet.  Both of
    these are cases of the results of gross mismanagement!
    
    I used to think prison crowding was only because of the number of 
    people.  It most definitely IS NOT!  In fact, I think now that prison
    overcrowding would have become a problem even if the population
    of the U.S. had stayed the same over the past ten years.  The number of 
    criminals has increased, probably most due to mismanagement of
    families, not size of families.  And, we have created a corrections 
    system that is rewarded by having overcrowded prisons.  Why?  Because 
    they get about the same amount of money per prisoner regardless of how 
    many are in a cell.  At the same time, their costs are reduced on a 
    per-prisoner basis.  Did you know that Mass has a prisoner exchange 
    program with several other states?  Yet, even this is not used as much
    as it might be.  Instead, they can use the overcrowding issue to justify
    building more prisons in Mass, where it's often more expensive to
    house prisoners.  I have experienced via observing what is happening
    with my friend and his lawyers (who have donated tens of thousands of 
    dollars of their time on his case) that the DOC is *not* interested in 
    reducing the number of prisoners in the Mass prison system.
    'Corrections' is a misnomer as there is no correcting of anything going
    on and instead is frequent blatant disregard for justice or civil
    rights (with regard to both criminals and victims).  The amount of fiscal 
    corruption going on is scary.
    
    At this point I want to pause.  There have been a lot of good changes
    made to the Mass DOC over the past ten years.  And, there are a
    lot of good people that do the community service by making improvements
    within the prison system.  It is very seldom that someone is murdered
    in prison, for example.  Various organizations have quite generously
    opened half-way houses to give ex-criminals opportunity to become
    productive members of society.  And, the organized crime element is less 
    prominent in the prison system.  Abuse usually takes the form of 
    destruction of personal property and harrassment, which is better than 
    it has been.
    
    In my opinion, 'mismanagement' is a grotesque and laughable (if it 
    weren't so serious) understatement of what is being done in Mass
    political and judicial systems.  My hope is that more of this 
    may come to light at election time.  Currently, the DOC is trying
    to strike different deals with my friend's lawyers to avoid a public 
    hearing of his case.  In fact, that is part of the deal, that the
    information of his case will become sealed and unavailable to other
    courts.
    
    Steve

Sorry Michael - but if population had anything to do with how 'we' choose good
over evil or visa versa - how could Cain have possibly killed Abel?!...
Everything was ideal then - mom and dad were the government (so to speak). They
provided direction to their children (taught them how to pray - gave'em a good
start etc).  

DAVE

    
    Dave,
      I really dont know how things were then,and,I dont think anyone does.
    I do think that there was a choice made.
      Let me ask everyone,Do you think,by observing world conditions right
    now,that Satan has an upper hand,or,Jesus?
      I say,Satan does,and,he has more followers than ever before.So I see
    a bad inbalance here.I believe that the problems created by a
    combination of factors,one being overpopulation.The juditial system is
    overloaded.There must be punishments handed out for breaking laws,you
    cant slap people on the wrist,it doesnt work. So we end up with jails
    overcrowded.I agree,Steve,there is gross mismanagement in many areas of
    government.Again,I see this related to more and more people to deal
    with,and,govern. Its like the small business which grows too fast for
    itself. It becomes too large to manage because of a lack of controlled
    growth,and,fails itself in the process.There must be controlled growth
    otherwise we will fail ourselves.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    	RE: 259.41 by Mike Pushard
    
    
    	Mike,
    
    	One of the hopes I, as a disciple of Christ, have is that if I 
    	strive to be faithful to his teachings and the covenants I have
    	made I will be blessed both here & in the Eternities. By blessed
    	I don't mean in any way that I will be free of trials & hardship.
    	I mean that I will be protected from Satan & his attempts to gain
    	my soul. Through obedience *we* can be insulated from the influence
    	of the evils that surround us and plague us. We can create islands
    	of righteousness amidst this sea of evil. Jesus loves us, as does 
    	our Heavenly Father and they will not cast us adrift. The Father's
    	purpose is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of
    	man". If we are reaching to Him He will be there!
    
    	As you have written your replies on this topic I have sensed several 
    	different things. One is a love for Christ, another is compassion
    	for others. With these I have also noticed a seeming sense of 
    	hopelessness at the world situation. I also detect what seems to be
    	a lack of faith that righteousness will triumph. If you love the
    	Savior TRUST Him. He is in control and righteousness will prevail.
    	Satan will have his moment but he will lose. We need to have faith
    	in our ultimate victory.
    
    	Overpopulation is not the problem. Lack of faith and righteousness
    	is. We, as disciples of Christ, can influence the world starting 
    	with our own personal lives. As we develop ourselves we can also
    	help others to chose the right. If we will spread our belief in 
    	Christ we will diminish Satan's influence. God is our Father and 
    	we have an inbred desire to seek Him and believe in Him. Some just
    	need that desire awakened. Let's wake people up, not depress them.
    	We know Christ so let's be HAPPY!!!!!!
    
    	God bless you,
    	Your Fellow Disciple,
    
    	David Pyle
    	TFO

I have not been reading lately, so pardon my being a latecomer to 
this discussion.

In the Context of this conference, it is well to note that since we LDS believe 
that We all were with God before the earth was created, and that at that time
there were one third of the group that were denied the opportunity of comming
to this earth as mortals, that leaves two thirds of the group deserving and
promised a chance at this mortality. This is a FINITE NUMBER.

If any of these pre-earthly souls were not able to get a body it would be 
God not fulfilling what they have earned and been promised. Therefore ALL of
that Finite Number will in fact be born to mortality.

While it is not defined that the only location for fullfilling this promised
mortality is this earth, it is probably quite safe to assume that there was in 
the plan of the Father a fixed number of people to come to this earth. Further
this number was fixed in the mind of a very generous loving Father that knew
the conditions that would prevail, including at this time. 

Therefore, If overcrowding is considered in the light of the Father's plans,
It simply can't happen.

Second, The ability of the earth to support more people is subject largely to 
things that mankind can't control too well, but God CAN and does.  Before the
Mormons moved into Utah, someone that knew the area well said that he would 
give a bushel of gold for the first bushel of corn that was raised there. That
was probably a very fair assesment of how much grew in that area spontaneously
in the conditions that existed at that time. While it is true that the settlers
had to work hard to irrigate and do their part to make things grow there, if
they were to take credit, for the ability of that area to support life, they
would be very shortsighted. Infact one could view the experience with the 
crickets as a way to remind them how powerless they really were. A second
example, as Wm. Flake was negotiating to buy a ranch in Arizona (later known
as Snowflake) the man who had worked that area for years said, that this 
could be a good ranch for one family, but that there was simply not enough
water to support more than one family. Flake responded "When the mormons come
the rains will come." Later the other mand was heard to say "I wish you would
get your damn mormons out of here untill I get my crops in." referring to the
amount of "unseasonable" rainfall that had happened.

The Lord is very much in charge, but he allows our faith to grow by waiting 
untill we comit ourselves before he makes the miracles that make possible for
us to do what he told us to do.

Third, there is not much time left. We LDS believe that the day of the second
comming of the Lord is VERY CLOSE at hand. (perhaps as close as ten or twenty 
years). After that time Jesus will reign personally on the earth. This should
provide much more effective management of the earth and it's resources. Futher
this condition will remain for a period of one thousand years. 

I am sure that this earth can survive the present and projected number of
population in the few years untill the Lord returns. Furthermore I am sure
that with the Lord's help it can survive the subsequent one thousand years.

Fourth, Choosing the size of a family is very much a personal issue. If One 
person here in the US chooses to have fewer children, it will only affect 
the size of that one family. If that person were to try very hard to influence
others to make similar choices, it would most likely have only a small
effect on one community.  The rate of growth of the population of the world as
a whole is not something tha tmankind with our very limited capabilities can
control.

When a government encourages less children, it causes some effect, but it is not
a drastic change.

People will have fewer children when they feel it is appropriate for them. So if
there were a serious overcrowding issue then people would tend to have fewer
children. This is modified by some populations actually not knowing how to
limit the size of their families. Yet is such a situation the population
control is still exerted, through things like miscarriages and disease.

In fact, when we think that with all our knowledge we can control our family
size, I think that we overrate our abilities somewhat.  How many people have
"suprize" babies, even though they thought such was not possible (occasionaly
it happens even with a Vasectomy). On the other hand, though people are not
as aware of it, even when someone wants to have a child they alone can not
make it happen. the statistics of fertilization make the lottery seem like a
good deal.  This is more clearly understood by folks (like myself) who have not 
been able to have children (though we did adopt two wonderful children) even
though there is no medical reason why we can't.  The years of struggle, (yes
when you really do all that you can to get pregnant it is a very great struggle)
to concieve a child help make it clear to us that infact man's knowledge is very 
limited in this area.  

Therefore, The Lord has more to say about where a child is born than we usually 
give him credit for.

In Summary, Since there are a finite number of people to come in a finite period
of time, and they must all come, and since the Lord is really in charge of the
fertility of the earth and the fertility of families, the issue of over-
pupulating the earth is not for us to worry about.  Instead we should rejoice
in our own families and help our neighbors where we can, even if the neighbor
that we have opportunity to help is not like us (see the parable of the good
samaritan).  For the people that we can not help we pray and trust the Lord.
For the fear that mankind would multiply like lemmings untill we rush to drown
ourselves in the sea, we should take comfort in knowing that there really is a
plan for this earth and the Lord is very much in charge.

Your Brother,
Len

PS, Mike I too am sorry about what happened to your friend, but don't let that
prevent you from loving your fellow man and helping those who you can.  There
have been tragedies such as this in all generations and regardless of how 
crowded the environment is. It is still true that we all can seek personal
guidance about when and who we help. If there is sucha a tragedy that comes into
a person's life, we must see what we should learn from it and accept it. But
what we learn should not be to deny the Lord's love for us or for that person
or for the person that committed the foul deed.

with love,
Len
 

In reply to note 259.0 "Overpopulation"

Hello Mike,

     My name is Richard and you can read more about me in the Let's get
acquainted note (note 2.47).  I have read your note and questions along with all
of the replies that have be give to it.  It seems that you have started
something very interesting and of great concern to others.  I would like to
make a few comments on this subject also, but before I do I want to say right
now that the following remarks are my beliefs as I understand the gospel of
Jesus Christ and that they are NOT made to offend or embarrass anyone.

Mike, you made a statement in note 259.0 that the church encourages large
families for those people who can support them.  Then you asked the following
questions:
	1)  How do you feel about limiting our family size, due to the growing
population around the world, and the problems associated with it?

	2)  Do you think a worldwide program of limiting births should be
adopted?

	3)  How do you feel about these issues?

     I would like to address these questions in order, and my intent is not to
preach, convert, or change your personal view on the matter, but to give you a
different viewpoint that might help you, others, and myself to develop our
beliefs and attitudes through prayerful consideration of as much information as
one can get to find the truth.

Question #1:  "How do I feel about limiting my family size?"

     I have decided along with my wife that we will have as many children has
Father in Heaven will bless us with.  We have four children right now and plan
on more, to include adoption.  Most people might view this as a selfish
attitude to take, but if you read my comments given for question 3 below I feel
that you might understand my position.  You might not agree, but then that's
what free agency is all about.

Question #2:  "Do you think a worldwide program of limiting births should be
------------   adopted?"

     I feel that it would be morally wrong and inconsistent with my beliefs
that a mandatory birth control program should be adapted, let alone practically
impossible to enforce.  There are a lot of arguments on both sides given, but
the bottom line is one of free agency and my beliefs dictate that this is the
number one concern.  I feel that abortion is wrong and God will punish those
that choose this way of birth control (when done outside of Church policy) and
I also feel that those people that have children and can't take care of, or
choose not to take care of them will be likewise punished.  But, I firmly 
believe is that we must create bodies for our Father in Heaven's spirit
children, to fulfill the Plan of Salvation.

Question # 3: "How do I feel about this issue?"
-------------

     I feel about this issue is that it is a personal decision between the
couple involved and our Father in Heaven.  The reasons for this belief is:

	1)  The Plan of Salvation --- Being LDS, I have a testimony of the Plan
of Salvation.  Since I feel that this plan is the answer for just about all
worldly related questions that we can ask ourselves, I want to explain it as I
understand it.  The Plan of Salvation is simply the plan that was created so
that we could become like our Father in Heaven.  The Plan of Salvation has
three major parts, they are:

		1)  The Pre-Mortal Existence
		2)  The Mortal Existence
		3)  The Post-Mortal Existence

I want to discuss these in sequence and in limited detail, so as that one
unfamiliar with LDS doctrine might gain an understanding on it.

The Pre-Mortal Existence
------------------------

     We believe that Father in Heaven has a perfected body of flesh and bone,
and that Father in Heaven and his mate created our eternal spirits in his 
likeness.  Our goal is to become like him, to do this we must follow the
same laws and path that he did to become a perfected God.  There was a great
council in Heaven that established the plan that would let us achieve our goal
of becoming like our Father in Heaven.  We were at this council, along with 
God and all of his spirit children, including Jesus Christ, Michael (Adam),
Abraham, Moses, Joseph Smith, and even Lucifer (Satan).  In this council we
found out that to become like Father we must go to a world, that will be
created specifically for this purpose, and gain a mortal, imperfect body of
flesh and bone and that we must live in faith and keeps God's commandments, and
if we do this we will be able to return to God's presence.  Also in this council
Satan said that He would go to this world and would make sure that everyone
kept the commandments by force and that all glory for this would be Satan's. 
Jesus Christ offered a plan that would give everyone their free agency and that
he would be a savior, so that any sins committed could be forgiven, and that
all glory would go to our Father in Heaven.  Both these plans were voted on by
all members of the council and the plan offered by Jesus Christ was adopted has
the plan by which we would be judged.  Satan and his followers rebelled against
the plan and Heavenly Father and were cast out.  Jesus and Michael, under the
direction of Father created the earth and all things there on, and with
Heavenly Father created Man and Woman in their image.

The Mortal Existence
--------------------

    We arrived on this earth for a specific purpose, to gain a body and live by
faith keeping the Lord's commandments.  It is very important that we recognize
the fact that this world was created for this purpose, for if we do not then
the concerns about overpopulation are very real.  I feel that we must TRUST in
the judgment and authority of our Father in Heaven.  We must also recognize
that Satan is on this earth and is working very hard for us not to follow the
Plan of Salvation.  Unfortunately Mike is right when he says that Satan has the
upper hand at this time, but the Lord promises that this will not last, that he
(Jesus) will return and restore the truth to this earth (The Millennium).  It
is sad that the world is cold and cruel, but the Lord warned Adam that this is
how the world would be after Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden and His
presence.

     There is no way that one can explain why violence and unspeakable crimes
happen, other then to say that Satan does reign upon the earth at this time.
I look upon this life as a test of my will, faith, and trust in God.  But, I do
have faith that no matter what happens to my family or myself that the gospel of
the Savior is true and his promises will be fulfilled.

The Post-Mortal Existence
-------------------------

     After this life we will be in the spirit world once again, either teaching
the gospel or having it taught to us.  The world as we know it will not exist,
but a world without evil or temptation will replace it, but we will still have
our free agency, but will be unable to exercise it and prove to the Lord that
we are keeping his commandments.  One day we will face our Creator and be
judged on our stewardship and faithfulness in keeping his commandments. 

Summary
-------

     In conclusion I would just like to say that I am very encouraged about my
beliefs when I read 1 Nephi 3:7, where Nephi tells us that the Lord will give
no commandment to us, unless He (the Lord) will provide a way to accomplish it.

     Once again, my comments are not intended to offend or embarrass anyone. 
They are given in Christian brotherhood.  Mike, I hope you receive what you're
looking for, and I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

					God Bless you,

					   Richard

A side note:  It was mentioned in .43 I believe (great note!) that LDS believe
that the second coming is very close, as close as perhaps 10 or 20 years.  While
the intent of that note was not to state a formal LDS policy, it might be
misconstrued such.  I personally believe within 50 years, but the Lord through
his prophet has given no indication that it is within 10, 20, 50, or even
200 years.  The time is short.  Joseph Smith said the same thing.  That was
150+ years ago.  The ancient christians believed the time was close at hand.

I am not trying to chastise anyone through this aside.

Chad

    
    
    Richard,
    
      You made a good case for your beliefs,and,I think I would have to
    agree with you,if,I only had that to guide me in my own beliefs. I too
    once believed as you. I feel I have grown beyond that point. I have
    been a member of the church since 1981,and,have learned a great deal
    about the doctrine. I do,however,believe in personal revelation,which
    is what I depend on for these days. It is something that burns within
    me,that,talks to my soul. I feel great sorrow for all the things that
    are happening in the world. I am only a small voice,but,I believe that
    soon,the prophet will be receiving messages,if he hasnt
    already,and,will be instructing the members around this issue. Only
    mankind can change his destiny. It may be too late to change,but,I hope
    not. 
    
    Chad,
    
      If we,as a world,does not change the direction we are heading,I
    believe,that,the antichrist will become very powerful and lead millions
    of people away from God. It could take place somewhere between the
    years 2015 and 2030 A.D. I believe that the antichrist has been
    born,and,we must beware of him.
    
      I hope I am wrong,but,I must go by what the spirit tells me. Has
    anyone took the time to ask the question in prayer? If so,what was the
    answer? Only time will tell,perhaps 10 years from now there will be
    more evidence to base it on. 
    
      I knew about the impact of AIDS long before it became a health
    concern. I hoped it would not happen,but,knew it would. It should peak
    about the turn of the century the year 2000,at which time it will begin
    to be controlled by drugs found to fight it. Unfortunitely,millions
    will die from it,especially in third world contries.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    
    
    
    2015 and 2030

    Michael,

        I appreciate your prompt response to my reply to your discussion on
'Over-population'.  I don't understand some of your comments in response to
mine.  You say that you believed once as I do in the Plan of Salvation, but
that you now have grown beyond that point.  I don't understand what you mean by
this.  Please clarify for me what you mean.  I don't know how one grows beyond
this point.  I do too, firmly believe in personal revelation, but it can only
confirm the truth.  I also feel sorrow with what's happening, there is much
of it in the world today.  But, Michael, is this not the workings of the evil
ones that are reigning on the earth today?  I feel strongly that if we give 
into these influences then the Plan of Salvation can not work and the evil ones
will win the battle.  We must live in faith and hope, we must prove ourselves to
Heavenly Father.  To get back to the central issue,  our mission in this life
is to live the gospel and provide bodies for our Father's spirit children. 
What happens in this life, whether good or bad, is not the fault of God.  He
promised that Satan can tempt, but we have the authority to overcome and to
dispatch Satan from our midst.  We, as in all mankind, let these terrible
things happen.  And you are absolutely right, we are the only ones that can
change it.  

     And we are doing so, the only way to change mankind is to preach the
gospel to them, and we are doing this.  You, Michael can help also, by doing
what you know is the truth, i.e.--living the gospel, dedicating your life to
the furthering of Zion, by reaching as many people with the gospel message as
you can.  Talk to your ward mission leader about what you can do to help.  You
are probably going to say "NO WAY", but is that not just what most of mankind
says to any problem.  I do not mean to sound harsh or condescending, I really
wish that we could communicate face to face, to feel each others compassion
and conviction that we feel in these matters.

     If you receive the Ensign, I encourage you to read the the First
Presidency message by Gordon B. Hinckley it is very enlightening.  Also read the
article on Sage, who has a very important message to convey.

     I hope that we continue our discussion and that you find my comments
helpful.

In the love of Christ,

Richard

    
    Richard,
    
       When I talk about growing beyond that,I mean,that I believe I have 
    had the experience of being without God in my life,with God thru the
    church,and,that I have arrived at a point in my journey,where,I am
    being guided in a different direction,in order to prepare for work I
    will be doing for Jesus,in a different way. Its hard to put it in
    words. I know most of you dont agree with what I am saying on this
    issue,and,I dont think that is any surprise to me. I understand where
    you are coming from,and,perhaps some day you might see it differently.
    We need to step back,get a good look,work out some of these problems
    before continuing. It is a must to me. Satan will get stronger if we
    dont. Things are out of control,which works in Satans favor. We are
    doing it to ourselves.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Satan is very powerful. He has an immense amount of control and influence in
the world today. For that matter he has always had a great deal of influence
in the world.  But if we give him too much credit, then we begin to undermine
our own faith, and may begin to work in means contrary to what the Lord wants
us to do. This can easily be done by folks that believe very sincerely that
they are still helping the Lord.  If we do that then we have fallen to the
influence of Satan in the very act of trying to avoid him.

The Lord Jesus Christ is, always was and always will be more powerful than
Satan. Yes the Savior uses us as tools in his hand, but doing so is as much
for our benefit as his. In this process he will not loose his power and 
authority of this world because of our failures. He has a plan and it is working
just as it is supposed to. We can get with the program and thereby be part of 
those that help, or we can fail to be part of his program for any one of a 
large number of reasons, in which case we are not part of those that help. But
regardless of whether we help or not, the Plan will go forth and it will be
carried out in it's fullest.

The Lord allows Satan to have the control and influence that he has in order to
more fully provide the right environment for us to grow and develop. Satan with
that freedom is working hard to discourage any who believe in Christ. If he can
convince us that he is winning then he may be able to get us to stop listening
to the Lord and to zealously take things in our own hands.

We have one other assurance, that is that Satan has no power to tempt us as
individuals beyond our own power to resist. In other words since God is allowing
Satan to be our adversary and the struggle with each of us, he will still keep
a careful eye on each struggle to make sure it is still a fair fight. 

Beware my brothers and sisters, Keep firm your faith and confidence in the
Lord. Don't give up the struggle either by underestimating the power of the
adeversary and not trying hard enough or by over estimating his power and 
giving up in despair.

The Lord loves us all and he is firmly in control so will not ever fail us.

your brother,
Len

    
    I heard on the news,that,scientists have developed a pill that will
    cause a women to have an abortion. This is already being used in Europe
    and,China is looking at it. China is very concerned about rising
    population,which is beyond the Billion mark. I am not in favor of
    abortion to control population. It is wrong to kill an unborn child. If
    all these children are being killed,wouldnt it be better to have a
    women or man prevent conception,than,to kill a child?
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

re .50

Yes, I agree.  It is better to stop conception than to abort.  Abortion in my
book is *bad* news.  I am not anti birth control.  I am anti-everyone-
should-use-birth-control-and-only-have-n-kids.

Chad

My 16 year old daughter, Sara, is doing some research for her Sunday School
class.  She needs to find out what the Church positions are about divorce,
birth control, and abortion.  The specific assignment is for the kids to
gather statements from the General Authorities about those issues.  If any
of you recall specific statements from General Authorities on those topics,
I will appreciate getting pointers to the comments.  If any of you have access
to the General Handbook and can take a minute to see what it says on those
topics, your help will be appreciated.

Allen

    Re: Note 259.52 by GALOIS::LEIGH

>If any of you have access
>to the General Handbook and can take a minute to see what it says on those
>topics, your help will be appreciated.
    

    Here is a summary of some of what the General Handbook says on related
    subjects:
    
    Abortion is a sinful practice, and church members are not to be a party
    to them, possible exceptions being in cases of rape, incest, the life
    or health of the mother being in jeopardy, or if the fetus is known to
    not be able to survive beyond birth. Even then, a couple should consult
    with each other, their bishop, and receive divine confirmation through
    prayer. As far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be
    forgiven for the sin of abortion. 
    
    In regard to birth control, husbands are to be considerate of their
    wives, and should help them conserve their health and strength.
    Couples should seek inspiration from the Lord in marital challenges
    and in rearing their children.
    
    Divorce -- I could not find a policy statement regarding divorce. 
    
    Artificial insemination with semen from anyone but the husband is
    discouraged, but this is a personal decision left to the husband and
    wife.
    
    To be morally clean, a person must refrain from adultery and
    fornication, from homosexual or lesbian relations, and from every other
    unholy, unnatural, or impure practice. Intimate relations are only
    proper between a man and woman who are legally married.
    
    The donation of sperm is discouraged. 
    
    In vitro fertilization using semen other than that of the husband or an
    egg other than that of the wife is strongly discouraged. However, this
    is a personal matter that ultimately must be lift to the judgment of
    the husband and wife. 
    
    Parents have primary responsibility for the sex education of their
    children. Where schools have undertaken sex education, it is
    appropriate for parents to seek to ensure that the instructions given
    their children are consistent with sound moral and ethical values. 
    
    Surgical sterilization is strongly discouraged and should only be
    considered where medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health
    or where a person is mentally incompetent and not responsible for his
    or her actions. Even then, the persons responsible should consult
    with each other, their bishop, and receive divine confirmation through
    prayer.
    
    Surrogate motherhood is discouraged. 
    
    Victims of rape or sexual abuse are not guilty of sin. They should
    be helped to regain their sense of innocence and overcome and feelings
    of guilt.

    (This was previously posted with the text from the General Handbook,
    but is being reposted as a summary of current church policy only, since
    the General Handbook is published for the use of leaders and not for
    general distribution.)