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| Title: | The Glory of God is Intelligence. |
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| Moderator: | BSS::RONEY |
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| Created: | Thu Jan 28 1988 |
| Last Modified: | Fri Apr 25 1997 |
| Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Number of topics: | 460 |
| Total number of notes: | 6198 |
214.0. "Baptism in Old Testament Times" by RIPPLE::KOTTERRI (Rich Kotter) Mon Mar 06 1989 11:49
The question of baptism in Old Testament times came up in the Christian
conference. I entered the following information, which I thought
might be of interest here, as well.
Latter-day Saints believe that the ordinance of baptism was first
instituted with Adam. The Pearl of Great Price contains a remarkable
account of Adam's baptism.
The prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that contains missing
parts of the writings of Moses. In this passage from the Book of Moses,
the Old Testament prophet Enoch is quoted:
But God hath made known unto our fathers that all men must repent.
And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am
God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh.
And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken
unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions,
and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten
Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the
only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation
shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of
the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye
shall ask, it shall be given you.
And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that
men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto
Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden
of Eden.
Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God
hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents
cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are
whole from the foundation of the world.
And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are
conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin
conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they
may know to prize the good.
And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they
are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law
and commandment.
Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere,
must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for
no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for,
in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name
of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a
righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.
Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things
freely unto your children, saying:
That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall
bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by
water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became
of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the
kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by
blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be
sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in
this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal
glory;
For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are
justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the
Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of
all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive
all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power
according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation
unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall
come in the meridian of time.
And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are
created and made to bear record of me, both things which are
temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the
heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which
are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above
and beneath; all things bear record of me.
And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our
father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by
the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and
was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon
him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in
the inner man.
And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with
fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father,
and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of
days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become
my sons. Amen. (Moses 6:50-68)
Witnessing of Christ,
Rich
| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
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| 214.1 | No Baptism Before Old Zach's Boy | RIPPLE::SHUBINGE | | Fri Nov 03 1989 14:11 | 37 |
| I really haven't got time for this, but at least one comment....
Categorically, emphatically, Biblically, historically there was
no practice of baptism in Old Testament times! The closest anything
came to it, and this is agreed to by many commentators, is the priest's
having to wash at the Laver prior to presenting sacrifices in the
temple. This practice would tend to be a shadow of the reality:
it pointed forward to the Christian practice.
As for the references contained in the writings within the Pearl
of Great Price, they are totally spurious, a complete fabrication
of Joseph Smith's imagination. The documents he claimed to translate
from have been proven to be common Egyptian funerary documents,
dated from far later than what is claimed. (He even "translated"
the holes in the parchement in long paragraphs!)
The RLDS church has avoided the embarassment of the "Book of Abraham"
and the "Book of Moses" long ago by denying that Joseph had anything
to do with them. Of course they are now having to deal with the
easily proved fact that Joseph indeed write them. Too many entries
in his diaries, you know.
This short note isn't going to convince any committed LDS of the
weak foundation that the Pearl of Great Price rests on, because
they typically ignore evidences that shed doubt on their claims
and point attention to peripheral points to draw attention away
from the main issue. So don't expect me to get drawn into a futile
interchange in this specific topic. If anyone answers, fine. Get
in the last word. I probably won't respond. I'm just too busy
raising seven kids, worshipping God, and interacting with truly
seeking people.
Just being realistic. Personally, I have found face-to-face
relationships to be the most effective channel in presenting the
true Gospel and message of Salvation. (Not that it work here, but
the harvest is greater using other methods.)
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| 214.2 | ... | NORGE::CHAD | Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte | Fri Nov 03 1989 17:56 | 63 |
| > I really haven't got time for this, but at least one comment....
And I don't really have the time to talk about this...
> Categorically, emphatically, Biblically, historically there was
> no practice of baptism in Old Testament times! The closest anything
Pretty strong words here. Were you there? You just don't believe that
there was no practice. Other people have support for the idea of baptism.
> As for the references contained in the writings within the Pearl
> of Great Price, they are totally spurious, a complete fabrication
> of Joseph Smith's imagination. The documents he claimed to translate
> from have been proven to be common Egyptian funerary documents,
> dated from far later than what is claimed. (He even "translated"
> the holes in the parchement in long paragraphs!)
Again strong words. Having studied this a little bit more, I will make some
comments: it has been shown that the pieces of parchment we do have aren't the
ones used by Joseph Smith in his translation. The funerary documents were
never claimed by Joseph Smith to be his source. No respected Egyptologist has
discounted Joseph Smith's claim either (they do agree on the shards we do have
and about what they mean however -- an Egyptian funerary parchment).
> The RLDS church has avoided the embarassment of the "Book of Abraham"
> and the "Book of Moses" long ago by denying that Joseph had anything
> to do with them. Of course they are now having to deal with the
No embarassment is given by the "Book of Abraham". Having read it many times
and praying to Heavenly Father in the name of Christ, I know it is what it
is claimed to be by the church -- Holy Scripture. I have also studied the
controversies surrounding it a little, and see *no* evidences against it!
I believe there is a Book of Abraham note somewhere where this could be
discussed -- if it hasn't already.
> This short note isn't going to convince any committed LDS of the
> weak foundation that the Pearl of Great Price rests on, because
> they typically ignore evidences that shed doubt on their claims
> and point attention to peripheral points to draw attention away
> from the main issue. So don't expect me to get drawn into a futile
> interchange in this specific topic. If anyone answers, fine. Get
> in the last word. I probably won't respond. I'm just too busy
> raising seven kids, worshipping God, and interacting with truly
> seeking people.
Please review your homework about the PoGP and ask God with a sincere heart,
he might just answer you, if you are ready. I would guess however that
he wouldn't, because he wants you to have a testimony of the BoM and JS and
the Restoration first. We have to start with the milk before we get to the
meat.
Anyway, I can see by the strong words you use that your mind is already
decided. I do wish you luck in raising your family, seven kids can't be easy!
I must admit that the reason I responded is because it bothers/irks me to
have people say that such and such is so, as if it were a fact, and not
just someones belief the strong words I mentioned earlier).
Chad
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| 214.3 | George, please elaborate | CACHE::LEIGH | Do not procrastinate repentance | Sat Nov 04 1989 01:17 | 25 |
| Re .1
Hi George,
You've made some serious charges against the LDS Church concerning the
Book of Abraham. You've also chosen to not provide any details that
substantiate your charges, so at the moment your charges are only
emotional tirades against the Church.
The translation of the Book of Abraham has been discussed at great length
in the conference, but the replies are buried in note 105. Because of
this, I can understand that you may not have read them. I've created
note 282 for a discussion of the translation of the Book of Abraham, and
I've posted the replies on that topic that are in note 105 plus some
material I've been saving for this new note.
George, you said the Book of Abraham was "totally spurious, a complete
fabrication of Joseph Smith's imagination." That is a serious charge
to make, and I think you owe it to the LDS members of this conference
to substantiate your charge with appropriate details. Since this note
concerns Baptism in the Old Testament, please create a new note for your
comments. Also, feel free to use note 282 for comments concerning the
translation of the papyri.
Allen
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| 214.4 | ... | NORGE::CHAD | Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte | Sat Nov 04 1989 18:35 | 13 |
| For the record:
I don't have references about baptisms before the New Testament times readily
handy as it was a long time ago I read about it but McConkie in "Mormon
Doctrine" claims that it has been shown by many secular sources that the
jews baptised their proselytes way before the time of John the Baptist and
therefore I trust him that he indeed did have such sources. Maybe someday
I'll run across more direct references again, but as I believe it already and
have limited time after my job due to 2 BU classes as well as being the
Blazer Scout Leader I'll leave it to others to find them now if they must
have them.
Chad
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| 214.5 | | CACHE::LEIGH | Do not procrastinate repentance | Mon Nov 06 1989 09:51 | 22 |
| Re .1
> This short note isn't going to convince any committed LDS of the
> weak foundation that the Pearl of Great Price rests on, because
> they typically ignore evidences that shed doubt on their claims
> and point attention to peripheral points to draw attention away
> from the main issue.
George,
You commented that you regularly read this conference, so I assume you are
familiar with Leza's notes in which she went into very great detail explaining
her objections to the LDS Church, and I assume you are familiar with our
replies in which we responded with great detail to her charges. Similarly,
the conference contains discussions with Ed, Roger, & others in which we have
discussed the pros & cons of Mormonism with great detail. It seems to me that
we haven't ignored their evidences, so I don't understand your comment about
"committed LDS" ignoring evidences that shed doubt on our claims. Perhaps
you would like to clarify what you meant?
Allen
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| 214.6 | | DNEAST::STTHOMAS_KEV | | Mon Nov 06 1989 11:21 | 6 |
| A short comment. There have been ancient structures in south america
that some say could be baptismal fonts. As the BoM speaks of baptisms
this could be offered as evidence, to support the claim that baptisms
were performed on this continent.
Kevin
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