| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 207.1 | Which doctrines? | RIPPLE::KOTTERRI | Rich Kotter | Thu Jan 26 1989 01:16 | 20 |
| Hi Lorenzo,
I have no problem with the premise of your note 931.0 in CHRISTIAN,
that Abraham was promised that ALL nations and races would be blessed
by his seed, through JESUS CHRIST, and that God is not pleased with
prejudicial feelings towards those of other races. This is consistent
with what Mormons believe.
However, you make the statement:
> Well.. for start, check out the mormon, moslems, some CHRISTIAN
> ETC. doctrines/beliefs. We may not admit it openly about our racial/
> prejudice feelings we have inside of us: but, keep in mind that
> we won't make in with that kind of spirit; so WE ALL need to check
> ourselves!!
I would like to ask specifically to which Mormon doctrines/beliefs you
are referring?
Rich
|
| 207.2 | | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | Love is a decision ... | Thu Jan 26 1989 19:50 | 5 |
| Well, I've tried accessing it several times over the course of the
day and have been unable. Wouldn't it be better to post it here
if you want our responses? Thanks!
Steve
|
| 207.3 | Here it is from IOSG. | HDSRUS::HANSEN | Be nice. | Fri Jan 27 1989 12:06 | 49 |
| Here you go, Steve. I was able to get in and extract it.
I hope this isn't breaking anyone's rules..........
Dave
<<< IOSG::LIB0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
-< The Christian Notes conference >-
================================================================================
Note 931.0 CHECK YOURSELF 2 replies
USRCV1::JEFFERSONL "HOLY GHOST POWER!!!" 37 lines 25-JAN-1989 19:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 3:25-26
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which
God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed
shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Unto to you first God, having raised up his son Jesus, sent him
to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
We see here that Peter, one of the apostals of christ speaking
to the people, after they had healed the man at the gate of the
temple, called beautiful. The people were all amazed at the miracle
that had just been performed; and Peter questioned them about their
curiousty, and began to tell them about the promise of Jesus that
had been brought to pass. Now, what caught my attention was when
Peter had quoted an old testament scripture, of the promise that
God had made with abraham, that, IN HIS SEED "ALL" kindreds of the
earth shall be blessed, having raised up his son Jesus, sent HIM
to bless us, in turning EVERY ONE of US from OUR iniqities. NOW
when we all come together in the notes file we're all in fellowship
with the scripture, but deep rooted in side some of us have that
thought that our race (Speaking individually) are the only blessed
people on earth; the other races are cursed: and you have old testament
scriptures to back it up. Well I'm here to tell you that GOD IS
NOT PLEASED!!! If we can't learn to come together under the covenant
that God made with Abraham, We're not going to make it in God's
kingdom!! Some of you are probably wondering what I'm talking about.
Well.. for start, check out the mormon, moslems, some CHRISTIAN
ETC. doctrines/beliefs. We may not admit it openly about our racial/
prejudice feelings we have inside of us: but, keep in mind that
we won't make in with that kind of spirit; so WE ALL need to check
ourselves!!
With Love in Christ
LORENZO
|
| 207.4 | my remarks ... | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | Love is a decision ... | Fri Jan 27 1989 13:20 | 49 |
| Thanks, Dave. Okay, lessee ... Implicit is some knowledge of Mormon
beliefs or doctrine not expressed here. I guess I, too, am wondering what
Lorenzo is talking about. Here's my response, for what it's worth and as
best as I understand things.
The Mormon Church is and has always considered itself to be the Lord's Church
and for all His children. We have no quibble with Acts 3:25-26 in that
through the seed of Abraham all the earth are and will be blessed. As to the
restrictions on Priesthood authority and its blessing (assuming that this is
what Lorenzo is referring to), we have seen it first limited to only a few
lineages, then to a people, then to Gentiles and most recently available to
all men. This has been heavily discussed in other notes within this
conference. I interpret this as a natural progression through time and as
fulfillment of promise and prophecy.
As to my own checking, I have no racial bias that I know of. I enjoy the
fellowship of peers representing several different races and hardly notice it.
It rubs me the wrong way when I encounter bias against any race, including my
own or that of my friends. I was not taught to think poorly of anyone because
of race. I was among those that always felt that the Priesthood would someday
be extended to all men as all are my peers, my brothers and sons of God. I
rejoiced in 1978 when this day came.
One more thought. Here is a section from the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 29:3-4)
that somewhat reflects Mormon attitudes toward bias against Jews:
And because my words shall hiss forth - many of the Gentiles
shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there
cannot be any more Bible
But, thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible;
and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenent
people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they
receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they
remember the travels, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews,
and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto
the Gentiles?
I think that cultures should be respected, too. I have no objections to
integration of societies, but I do have objections if this is forced or if
cultures are destroyed as a result. For these reasons, I would encourage,
for example, blacks to marry blacks, whites to marry whites, and so forth.
But, I have no objections to mixed marriages so long as the couples
truly love each other, work out their cultural differences, raise their
children to understand and appreciate the cultures of their heritage, and so
forth. I think that this is in line with the doctrines of the Church.
Steve
|
| 207.5 | Racism is Wrong | RIPPLE::KOTTERRI | Rich Kotter | Fri Feb 03 1989 14:57 | 49 |
| Church's Message is One of Concern for All Men
Church News
January 21, 1989
The promotion of the idea of superior and inferior races is "absolutely
wrong," declared Elder J. Thomas Fyans of the First Quorum of the
Seventy Jan. 13.
Those who "subjugate, punish or trod upon a targeted supposed inferior
race" are "misrepresenting the truth," said Elder Fyans, president of
the Utah Central Area.
He participated in an anti-racism symposium at the Salt Lake County
Complex in conjunction with the observance Jan. 16 of Human Rights Day.
The symposium was sponsored by the bipartisan civic organization,
Citizens Against Racism, and was designed to educate high school
leaders and students about the fallacies and dangers of racism.
Elder Fyans said the Church, based upon ancient and modern scriptures,
"gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and
women are brothers and sisters.
"Our message," he said, "is one of special love and concern for the
eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief,
race or nationality, knowing that we are truly brother and sisters
because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father."
He quoted President Ezra Taft Benson, who, upon assuming the leadership
of the Church in 1985, said:
"My heart has been filled with an overwhelming love and compassion for
all members of the church and our Heavenly Father's children
everywhere. I love all our Father's children of every color, creed and
political persuasion."
Quoting 2 Ne. 26:33 [from the Book of Mormon], Elder Fyans said Jesus
Christ "inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness;
and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white; bond and free,
male and female...."
The First Presidency, he said, "has repudiated efforts to deny to any
person his or her inalienable dignity and rights on the abhorrent and
tragic theory of the superiority of one race or color over another."
It is the Church's position, Elder Fyans said, "that it is a moral evil
for any person or group of persons to deny any human being the rights
to gainful employment, to full educational opportunity, or to every
privilege of citizenship."
|
| 207.6 | face it, you're gonna get questions. | EMASS::BARNETTE | One World, one Love, one People | Sat Feb 04 1989 13:11 | 25 |
|
In my humble opinion, I think that the LDS Church has evolved
a more tolerant and sensitive outlook than what once may have
been. It is admirable when any person, organization or nation
can look upon the errors of their past, repent and work to
change them. However, any person, organization or nation is
built upon their past. What has been in your life is a part
of you, and you are answerable for it.
There are always going to be people who look at certain
aspects of the LDS Church and wonder about it's racial
and gender-related positions. The actions of early church
members, the policies regarding who may and may not receive
the priesthood, certain scriptures in the Book of Mormon,
are all public-domain knowedge. It's only natural that
people would question you about them.
Neal/B
|
| 207.7 | Look at the facts | RIPPLE::KOTTERRI | Rich Kotter | Sat Feb 04 1989 23:37 | 55 |
| Re: Note 207.6 by EMASS::BARNETTE
> -< face it, you're gonna get questions. >-
The questions are ok, but let's also look at the facts.
> In my humble opinion, I think that the LDS Church has evolved
> a more tolerant and sensitive outlook than what once may have
> been.
This may be true, but the facts show that there has been a "tolerant
and sensitive" outlook from day one. For example, blacks have been
included in the church from the beginning. Even in the days of legal
slavery, Mormon leaders spoke out against it, when it was dangerous to
do so. One of the earliest places in the nation where women received
the vote was in the territory of Utah, and it was only changed as a
condition of Utah becoming a state, as I recall. In other words, Utah
was "more tolerant and sensitive" very early on regarding some of these
issues than was the remainder of the states.
The passages you refer to in the Book of Mormon speak of the "curse" of
the dark skin that God put upon the Lamanites because of their
wickedness. The facts clearly show that the Mormon church has bent over
backwards to be "tolerant and sensitive" to the American Indians, the
descendants of the Lamanites. In other words, it has not been a cause
or justification of discrimination in the church, but quite the
contrary, a motivation to assist the Indians in every way possible.
The monumental effort and expense incurred by the Mormon church and its
members to take the gospel, as well as temporal assistance to every
culture, race, and nation on the planet is also evidence of the lack of
discrimination. Some of the most dramatic growth of the church has
occurred in places like Africa, Latin America, and Asia, among so
called minority races.
Now about the priesthood. Yes, I suppose it bothers some people that
women are not ordained to the priesthood, and that, for many years,
blacks were not ordained to the priesthood. But, in our view, it is not
up to man who gets the priesthood and who doesn't. That's up to God.
It's His authority to be given to those that He decides should have it.
When He says, by revelation, that a group should get it, those who are
worthy in that group will get it. Anciently, only the tribe of Levi
held the priesthood. Today, all worthy men can hold the priesthood.
Yes, this is certainly an "evolution", but one that we feel is directed
by God himself. Those who don't like it can take it up with Him
directly, I suppose.
When the prophet received the revelation in the temple over ten years
ago that all worthy men could receive the priesthood, it was greeted
with unanimous approval of the apostles, and overwhelming acceptance by
the members of the church. It was something that had long been
promised, and there was tremendous rejoicing when it occurred.
Rich
|
| 207.8 | | EMASS::BARNETTE | One World, one Love, one People | Tue Feb 07 1989 14:08 | 35 |
|
First of all, it is not, and never will be, my intent to "bash"
the LDS Church. As a matter of fact, what I was saying in note
.6 was that I find it admirable that the church is willing to
allow itself to be as clay in God's hands, that he may improve
it's design over time and it may be changed for the better.
As for the scriptures in question, these are a part of the church,
and church members are responsible for them. Let me make an
analogy:
If a person calls himself an "American", he is a part of
the United States of America. It's past, it's future, it's
sins and it's virtues are his responsibility, shared with
everyone else who calls themselves such. He cannot, when
asked "who went to the moon first", answer "We did", and then
if asked who exterminated the Native American population
that once held this land, answer "some nasty people did".
The negative as well as the positive heritage of this country
belogs to all of those who pledge allegience (sp?) to it.
Now the Book of Mormon teaches (not stated outright but
STRONGLY implied) that a "skin of blackness" is "loathsome",
while white skin is "delightsome and beautiful". That is
a part of your church just as much as the beautiful things
are, and you are answerable for it.
Now I have studied the Mormons and found that it is unfair
to categorize the church as white-supremacist and racist
(which is what I had been led to believe beforehand). But
if someone is looking at the church, they HAVE to ask
themselves these questions, and SHOULD come to you and
ask as well. How else are they to know the truth?
Neal/B
|
| 207.9 | Loathsome SINS! | RIPPLE::KOTTERRI | Rich Kotter | Tue Feb 07 1989 19:57 | 69 |
| Re: Note 207.8 by EMASS::BARNETTE
Hi Neal,
> First of all, it is not, and never will be, my intent to "bash"
> the LDS Church.
That has been clear to me, and I am glad for the open approach you
have taken.
> As a matter of fact, what I was saying in note
> .6 was that I find it admirable that the church is willing to
> allow itself to be as clay in God's hands, that he may improve
> it's design over time and it may be changed for the better.
Which is exactly our perspective, that if this is God's church,
then He will direct it and mold it to serve His purposes.
> Now the Book of Mormon teaches (not stated outright but
> STRONGLY implied) that a "skin of blackness" is "loathsome",
> while white skin is "delightsome and beautiful".
I can see how you would arrive at the conclusion that this is what
it implies. But let's look at the passages one more time:
And he had caused a cursing to come upon them, yea, even a
sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had
hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like
unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly
fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my
people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon
them.
And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be
loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their
iniquities.
And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their
seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing.
And the Lord spake it and it was done. (2 Nephi 2:21-23)
The Lord did not say that their skin would be loathsome TO HIM, or TO
EACH OTHER. In other words, their "skin of blackness" was not
inherently "loathsome", but rather, the Lord made it loathsome TO THE
NEPHITES, and said that it would be so UNLESS THEY REPENT. He made it
so, because He did not want the Nephites to intermarry with the wicked
Lamanites. He further states that they would no longer be loathsome, if
they would repent. The emphasis is not on the loathsomeness of their
SKINS, but rather the loathsomeness of their SINS.
> That is
> a part of your church just as much as the beautiful things
> are, and you are answerable for it.
If, as we say, it is God's church, and the Book of Mormon is God's
word, then it is God who is answerable for these things, not the
leaders or the members of the church. If this is not the case, then
your conclusion is correct.
> Now I have studied the Mormons and found that it is unfair
> to categorize the church as white-supremacist and racist
> (which is what I had been led to believe beforehand). But
> if someone is looking at the church, they HAVE to ask
> themselves these questions, and SHOULD come to you and
> ask as well. How else are they to know the truth?
Fair enough.
Rich
|
| 207.10 | Evidence from the scriptures | MECAD::MCKINNEY | Albatros! | Fri Mar 10 1989 09:30 | 55 |
| I agree with what Rich has said.
It might be appropriate to mention that God has always discouraged
his people from marrying outside of the faith.
"Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou
shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughtar shalt thou take
unto thy son; For they will turn away thy son from following me,
that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of the Lord be
kindles againt you and destroy thee suddenly." (Duet. 7:3,4)
"And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites,
and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites; And
they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters
to their sons, and served their gods. And the children of Israel
did evil in the sight of the Lord, and forgat the Lord their God,
and served Baalim and the groves." (Judges 3:5-7)
"For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned
away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with
the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. For Solomon
went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians and after Milcom
the abomination of the Ammonites. And Solomon did evil in the sight
of the Lord, and went on fully after the Lord, as did David his father."
(I Kings 11:4-6)
"And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them: Ye have transgressed,
and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Isreal.
Now therefore make confession unto the Lord God of you fathers and
do his pleasure; and seperate yourselves from the people of the
land, and from the strange wives. (Ezra 10:10,11)
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what
fellowhip hath righteousness with unrighteousness; and what
communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Corr. 6:14)
"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore
cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, hey had hardened
their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint;
wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome
that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause
a skin of blackness to come upon them." (2 Nephi 5:21)
In changing the skin to a darker color to designate the wicked
from the righteous (which was *almost* always along the division
line between the Nephites and Lamanites), the Lord was merely placing
a mark to discourage the intermarrying of the Nephites with the Lamanites.
Like many of the teachings in the scriptures, it also carries a symbolic
message that those who sin and do not repent will be filthy and unfit
for the presence of God, while those who repent and hate "even the garment
spoted with the flesh" will be white and delightsome, fit for His kingdom.
(Eccl. 9:8; Dan. 7:9; Jude 1:23; 1 Nephi 12:10)
Jim
|
| 207.11 | a few thoughts and a prayer | EMASS::BARNETTE | One World, one Love, one People | Tue Mar 14 1989 14:19 | 33 |
| Re .10,
> Like many of the teachings in the scriptures, it also carries a symbolic
> message that those who sin and do not repent will be filthy and unfit
> for the presence of God, while those who repent and hate "even the garment
> spoted with the flesh" will be white and delightsome, fit for His kingdom.
> (Eccl. 9:8; Dan. 7:9; Jude 1:23; 1 Nephi 12:10)
Fortunately, due to the teachings and writings that I have recently
become aquainted with (see note 171), I have come to understand
that these references to color are referring to the human "aura"
rather than skin. A field of subtle energy encircles each of us,
which cannot be seen except by the trained eye of the spiritually
sensitive. From the "colors" of this "aura" much can be determined
about one's physical condition, spiritual awareness, emotional state
etc., all of which are interdependent or parts of the "whole" person.
Before, I interpreted these references (as many todaqy do) as referring
to one's race - and consequently, had a great deal of hostility
toward the teachings of Christians.
Father God, thank You for allowing that mine eyes be opened, to
the spiritual equality of men of all races, and of men and women.
Thank you for giving me the knowedge of that which exists beyond
the barriers of Satan, the beautiful "jewel in the lotus" - the
spiritual beings that exist within these skins of many colors!
And thank You Father, for the teachings of Jesus, from which I may
learn not to be the judge of my fellowman, and to love mine enemies
and pray for those who looketh upon me with scorn and contempt!
In Jesus' name. Amen.
Neal/B
|