Conference tecrus::mormonism

    Re: Note 194.0 by EMASS::BARNETTE

>	If Jesus Christ were living among us today, living in a house
>	(with His family?), would he own a handgun? Do you think that
>	it is Christian to own a gun for the defense of your valuables
>	and family?

    This is really two questions:
    
    1) Would Jesus own a gun?
    
    I don't believe he would need a gun, and therefore probably would not
    own one. If he could calm the storm, walk on the water, raise the dead,
    walk unscathed through the angry mobs, then he has no need to defend
    himself with a gun. 
    
    2) Is it Christian for us to own guns to defend our families?
    
    I believe it is. If we had the faith of Christ, then perhaps it would
    not be necessary for us, either. But, if necessary, I believe that we
    have a responsibility to defend our families. On the subject of owning
    weapons, the Holy Bible includes an interesting reference that shows us
    that Peter carried a sword. 
         
         Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high
         priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. Ther servant's name
         was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the
         sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink
         it? (John 18:10-11) 
         
    Rich 
    
                            

RE: Note 194.0 EMASS::BARNETTE 

Hi, Neal, 

Interesting question. 

>	Do you think that
>	it is Christian to own a gun for the defense of your valuables
>	and family?

First off, I don't think just owning a gun is the essence of your 
inquiry, is it? Basically, I read this question as: Would Jesus Christ
condone one of His followers being prepared to use deadly force in
defense of his or her family and/or possessions? 

I'd say the answer was clearly yes. 

If a burglar breaks into someone's home, he presents a threat. It may 
be a small threat, but it may be a large threat, and the homeowner 
should not have to politely inquire "Are you here to kill us, or just 
pick up the silverware? Oh, just the TV? No problem. And have a nice 
day!"

It seems to me that a homeowner is entitled to assume, in the absence
of contrary information, that the threat is large, eg. a danger to his
family's lives. Given a presumption of deadly threat, I'd say that the 
homeowner has a right to meet that threat with deadly force.

That is not the same as saying I have a right to open fire on anyone 
who trespasses. Deadly force may not be *required* to meet the threat, 
in which case it should not be used. But the original question asked 
if we should be *prepared* to use it. Assuming it is required, I'd say 
yes we should be prepared. And if it comes down to a choice between
him and me, or between him and a family member, then bye-bye burglar. 

Now would Christ condone this line of thought?

I know the Bible contains many instances of where the Lord commands 
His people to take up arms and defend themselves. And in the Book of 
Mormon are several more examples. In Alma 43:47, it says quite
plainly: "And again, the Lord has said that: 'Ye shall defend your
families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the
Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and
their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and
their religion.'" 

In the D&C, Section 134:11, is another clear statement of Church 
beliefs: "We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for 
redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is 
inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such 
laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are 
justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and 
the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all 
persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal connot be made to 
the laws, and relief afforded."

I know that Christ taught that we should turn the other cheek, but 
that isn't a blanket pronouncement that includes life-or-death 
situations. 

I know that Christ was prepared to lay down His life for the wicked as
well as the righteous, but that was a sacrifice that was required by
the law and the will of the Father. Self-defense includes no such
requirements. 

I know that Christ taught humility and meekness, but He was also not 
shy about dealing with sin, wickedness, and evil, and He taught that
we should not acquiesce to it. 

So I would conclude that Christ not only condones our being willing 
and prepared to use deadly force if it became necessary, but also that 
Christ expects us to be so prepared.

My two cents.
/kevin

	� If Jesus Christ were living among us today, living in a house
	� (with His family?), would he own a handgun? Do you think that
	� it is Christian to own a gun for the defense of your valuables
	� and family?

    Taking my cue from .1, I say that this is really only one question,
    "Is it Christian to defend your valuables and family?"
    
    Yes.
    
    Ed
    
    

    
    
    	Re .2, thanks Kevin I really enjoyed your reply.
    
    	
    	Re .3,
    >    Taking my cue from .1, I say that this is really only one question,
>    "Is it Christian to defend your valuables and family?"
>    
>    Yes.

    	I think this is an over-simplification here. Is a gun a must
    in defending one's family?
    
    In my beliefs, which have been called New-Age (I know, you don't
    wanna hear it), it is right to be assertive in Christ, but not
    in self. One must fight to defend the weak, those unable to defend
    themselves, loved ones, etc., and use anything that happens to
    be at hand in effecting that defense. But to obtain a weapon on
    the presumption that such an attack will occur, or worse yet to
    carry it around, constitutes a lack of faith in God. Faith in
    God means going about your life and believing that God will see
    to it that your needs will be met, as long as you try your best
    to live in accordance with your spiritual purpose. There is a scripture
    in Matthew about the birds in the air and the lillies of the field,
    which this belief is partially based. 
    
    I don't want to go on spouting a bunch of "New Age" stuff here,
    as I realize that it is distasteful to most of the noters, so I
    won't elaborate. I just entered the above because I felt that
    Ed altered the context of my question in such a way that it
    required further explanation.
    
    Neal
                                                                 
    

	Re .1,


	Hi Rich. That was a good point. Had to think for a while about
	that one. I finally decided that Peter's carrying a sword did
	not justify us carrying weapons. Did the other disciples
	carry swords? and, we know what happens to those who "live
	by the sword"!


	Thanks,


	Neal Barnette
    
    

    
    �     -< %Question unfairly altered, rebuild in progress... >-
    
    �	I think this is an over-simplification here. Is a gun a must
    �	in defending one's family?
    
    � In my beliefs, which have been called New-Age... it is right to 
    � be assertive in Christ, but not in self. 
    
    � Ed altered the context of my question in such a way that it
    � required further explanation.
    
    I did what I did deliberately, for two reasons; one, I felt that
    your question was really somehow about guns, though put in an unclear
    manner, and two, if it is "Christian" to defend anyone or anything, 
    then the "weapon" hardly matters, does it? 
    
    Notice that Jesus did not rebuke Peter for carrying a sword, only
    for his attempt to rescue Jesus by fighting.

    There is a verse from Proverbs that I paraphrase here:    
    "The prudent man forsees trouble and prepares himself, while the 
    fool ignores it and is destroyed."
    
    The world is so violent today that if may require something as drastic
    as a gun to defend oneself or family properly, but that is for each
    one to decide for himself. I don't believe it is un-Christian to
    have a gun and to pray that is is never needed.
    
    Ed    
                                                                     
    

I thought I would elaborate on Ed's comment about violence in the world.

One key factor as to why violence is in the world is that of *free agency*.
It is a fact that there are many people in this world who will harm us if they
can.  They have a God-given free agency, and depending on which country they
live in they have to some extent a society-given free agency.  And they will
choose to use their freedom to harm us.

We believe in God and have faith and hope that He will protect us, and I
personally believe that He does in ways of which I am aware and in many ways
of which I am not aware.  However, I believe that God may withhold some of his
protection in order to allow the others to exercise their free agency, i.e.
God recognizes the free agency of the wicked as well as the free agency of
those who are trying to follow him.

I guess that what I'm saying is that if we expect to be free of problems in
life due to our having faith in God, we will be in for a rude awaking.  We need
to do all we can, within legal and moral constraints, to protect ourselves and
then rely upon the grace of God to do what we can't, and as problems and
difficulties come upon us, we need to have sufficient faith in God that we
believe that in the long-run things will work out.

Allen

    Re .7,
        
    >I guess that what I'm saying is that if we expect to be free of problems in
>life due to our having faith in God, we will be in for a rude awaking.  We need

     
    Not at all, for me. Problems in my life are considered part of my
    spiritual growth, including confronting violence. Just remember
    to be assertive in Christ, but not in Self.
    
    Neal Barnette
        

    Neal,
    
    I know this is only remotely related to your original question about
    citizen gun ownership, but do you feel that our government should
    destroy all its weapons and disband the armed forces?  Just curious.
    
    Dave

    � Just remember to be assertive in Christ, but not in Self.
    
    This has a nice sound to it, but could you explain what exactly
    you mean?
    
    Ed

            

    
    Re .9,
    
    >    I know this is only remotely related to your original question about
>    citizen gun ownership, but do you feel that our government should
>    destroy all its weapons and disband the armed forces?  Just curious.

    A difficult question, to be sure. It requires some extrapolation
    of my own beliefs into the realm of world governments. It also
    opens doors into beliefs about social and political issues that
    may not be germane to this conference. I will defer to the moderators
    on this point. Suffice it for now to say that I believe as my
    spirituality increases, so does the spirituality of my five billion
    or so brothers and sisters in the world, albeit imperceptibly. The
    eventual end-product of this would be (ideally) a world in which
    there are no guns, no wars, no agression (note my personal_name).
    I seriously believe that this can be brought about. We CAN DO IT!
    
    RE .10, let me explain this concept by example. Jesus, in discovering
    that the Holy Temple had been infested with money-changers, merchants
    and various profiteers, grabbed up a scourge of branches and chased
    these corrupt persons from the Temple, overturning their tables
    in the process. But, when held captive by the Roman centurions in
    Pilate's court, being spit upon, mocked and beaten by them, he
    simply endured it, and inwardly prayed for them. In the first case
    He was assertive, fighting the blaspheming of the Temple. In the
    second case, he was passive, denying Self for God. 
    
    I strive for, and long for, the day in which I can be as holy. 
    Heavenly Father knows, if I were to be surrounded and attacked
    for my beliefs, or for any reason, I would fight back - but I
    would be ashamed, not proud, for doing so. It is Satan asserting
    himself (Satan to me being the lower, carnal Self) in me, and
    very much a cause for repentance.
    
    Hope this explanation is clearer than mud,
    
    
    Neal Barnette
    

    
    I believe God allows us to make our own choices,for our own growth.I
    would choose to defend my family if they were threatened.I do not
    have a gun of my own.If I felt a need for one,for the purpose of
    protection,based on my situation,i would get one.As yet,I have not
    needed to have one.However,if I choose to be in an area where the
    threat existed,I would have to protect myself and family.Its our
    choice to make.I have faith in God that,by using his teachings wisely,
    I may have a fullfilling experience while here,and,make a lot of
    wise choices to extend my time here.
    
    Peace
    Michael