[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference tecrus::mormonism

Title:The Glory of God is Intelligence.
Moderator:BSS::RONEY
Created:Thu Jan 28 1988
Last Modified:Fri Apr 25 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:460
Total number of notes:6198

155.0. "Metals in Ancient America" by CACHE::LEIGH () Tue Aug 09 1988 13:06

One topic of great interest to students of the Book of Mormon is the use
of metals by the Jaredites and Nephites and whether that use is corroborated
by archaeology.  I have created this note so we can (a) post information from
scholarly sources on the topic, and (b) discuss among ourselves the importance
(or lack of it) of such information.

One caution that we all need to remember.  This discussion concerns parallels.
(See note 64).  The fact that archaeologists have discovered that the ancient
American's did use iron, for example, does not prove the Book of Mormon to
be true.  The use of iron by the ancient Americans is a parallel to the
use of iron by the Book of Mormon peoples.  This parallel is not proof of
anything, but it does remind us to keep an open mind about the Book of Mormon.
It does make the Book of Mormon story a bit more feasible, and it does increase
the likelihood that the Book of Mormon might be true.  Proof of the Book of
Mormon can only come through personal prayer to God and communion with Him
through the Holy Spirit.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
155.1John L. SorensonCACHE::LEIGHTue Aug 09 1988 13:07218
The following is from Chapter 7 in "An Ancient American Setting For The Book Of
Mormon, by John L. Sorenson, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah
and F.A.R.M.S, Provo, Utah, 1985

Admittedly, this book is a Mormon source, but Sorenson's references are not.
I have omitted his references to save my time in entering this reply; I will
be happy to post his references if anyone wishes them (better yet, I suggest
that interested persons get his book, because it covers much more than just
the use of metals.)

                                  * * *    

The Use of Metals

Critics of the Book of Mormon have been fond of pointing out that statements
in the scripture regarding use of metals by the Nephites and Jaredites run
contrary to authoritative pronouncements on the subjects by experts.  The
position of orthodox archaeologists has long been that nowhere in Mesoamerica
were metals used before about A.D. 900.  Until recently Latter-day Saints were
not in a position to reconcile this conflict.  In 1954 I published two articles
that presented evidence for the existence of metal objects from Mesoamerican
archaeological sites well before the accepted date of A.D. 900.  Further
finds would be needed, I concluded before the question of dating could be 
settled.

Nearly twenty years later I updated the information and included much more
data.  Since then additional facts have come out in support of the idea
that metal use was much earlier in America than had been thought.  One
basic lesson we learn from this experience is that the experts were quite
wrong.  Metals were indeed in use in Book of Mormon times in Mesoamerica.

What kind of evidence is there?  The most compelling sort consists of actual
specimens found where an early date is positively established.  Over a dozen
of these significantly precede A.D. 900.  The earliest piece so far
probably dates back to around the first century B.C.  It is a bit of copper
sheathing found on top of an altar at Cuicuilco in the Valley of Mexico.
In addition to surely early specimens, other finds, not firmly dated, could
be pre-A.D. 900; a late date has been inferred for some of them mainly
'because' metal was found and "everybody knows" that metal occurs only in
late sites.  When all current information is considered, it appears that
archaeologists should now be asking a new question.  The old query was, why
was there no metal in early Mesoamerica?  Now it ought to become, why do we
recover so little evidence of the metallurgical skill that was surely there?


                                  * * *    

Dr. Sorenson's comments in chapter 7 are to long to quote, but he discusses
the following points:

1.  Mesoamerican languages going back as far as about 2200 B.C. had a word for
'metal'.

    Proto-Mixtecan:     1000 B.C.
    Huastecan:          2200 B.C.
    Proto-Mixe-Zoquean: 1500 B.C.


2.  Archaeologists recently learned that metal was being worked in Peru as
early as 1900 B.C. and was being traded in Ecuador before 1000 B.C


3.  According to the Nephite record, Nephi probably had only a rudimentary
knowledge of metal working because his equipment consisted on "little beyond
a bellows".  He taught his people to "work in all manner of wood, and of iron,
and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of
precious ores." (2 Nephi 5:15).  Only one reference later in the Book of Mormon
concerned a utilitarian use of the metal (Jarom 1:8; tools & weapons), the
rest of the references to metals in the Book of Mormon relate to being
"precious" metals.

4.  Processing ore gets almost no attention in the Book of Mormon.  One
reference to the Jaredites is to smelting (Ether 7:9) and one Nephite reference
may be to smelting (Helaman 6:11).  Sorenson summarizes by saying:  "There
are puzzles here because what the text means about Nephite operations with
metals is simply unclear.  Refining could have consisted of as simple a process
as heating a piece of rich ore and pounding it.  Certainly the Jaredite king
who had his 'fine gold...refined' within the confines of a 'prison' (Ether 10:7)
would not have been hauling bulky ore to such a place for smelting, although
it might have made sense to have workers treat small amounts of less-than-fine
gold in order to improve its quality.  In short, we remain largely ignorant 
about the technical procedures employed by the Book of Mormon craftsmen, but
there is no reason from the text to think they were very sophisticated
technologically.  It sounds as if they were within the modest range of skill
common in later Mesoamerica." (p. 282)

5.  The Book of Mormon mentions seven metals: gold, silver, copper, brass,
iron, steel, and "ziff".

"Gold and silver specimens are well-known.  Some show the 'lost-wax'
method of casting, known in Mesoamerica, Peru, and also the Near East.  However,
the only form specified in the scriptures [B of M] is the flat 'plate' on
which historical and religious records were kept.  It would not be feasible to
manufacture those other than by hammering.  Thin hammered metal we know well,
but metal sheets for record keeping are not yet attested archaeological in
the New World. (A nineteenth-century historian in Oaxaca said that the
ancestors of the Mixtecs made very thin gold plates on which were engravings of
ancient hieroglyphs, but we do know know the source of his information.)"
(pp. 282-283)

"Copper, too, was well known anciently.  The earliest metal artifact yet
known is the bit of copper already mentioned.  But copper was also basic to
alloys.  One alloy used in many parts of nuclear America was 'tumbaga', a
mixture of gold and copper.  Treated properly it had the 'appearance of
gold' but weighed less and probably was cheaper....A 'tumbaga' specimen
from Belize (British Honduras) shows that this material was known in the
Maya lowlands no later than the fifth century A.D." (p. 283)

"A different alloy is bronze, of copper with tin.  The word 'bronze' does not
occur in the Book of Mormon, but 'brass' does.  The 'brass plates of Laban'
were brought from Jerusalem by Nephi, as we know.  Until a few years ago it
was supposed that what we call brass (an alloy including zinc) was developed
only in the last few centuries.  Yet the Bible speaks of 'brass.'  Bible
scholars have delt with that apparent misstatement by saying that the word
translated 'brass' was actually bronze....Within the last few years, however,
some ancient artifacts from the Mediterranean area have been tested by more
sophisticated scientific techniques than before, and the tests reveal that
actual brass, with zinc in it, was in use among the Estruscans, probably
as early as Lehi's time.  That means that perhaps the brass plates of Lehi's
day are neither an anomaly of culture history nor an oddity of linguistic
labeling, but of the literal metal." (pp. 283-284)

"Bronze was used in Mesoamerica, although its composition (that is, the
proportion of tin) was not as standardized as in the Old world.  Interestingly,
Ether 10:23 accurately distinguishes brass from copper in one subtle bit
of context.  The record says that the Jaredites dug up heaps of earth "to
get ore...of copper." Naturally they would not have got "ore of brass" or
bronze, for those metals must be manufactured by alloying.  Rather, the same
verse says they 'did make' brass.  The terminological distinction comes out
exactly as it would from a person who wrote with a real knowledge of
metallurgy." (p. 284)

"It is tempting to see "ziff" as 'tumbaga', for it is mentioned twice in direct
connection with brass and copper (Mosiah 11:3,8).  Several derivations of 'ziff'
are possible in Hebrew with two general senses--'bright' or 'shinning' on
the one hand and 'plated' on the other.  Both meanings would be appropriate
for an alloy with a gilded surface.  But "ziff" could also have been tin,
another metal known in Mesoamerica.  In fact, even mercury is a possibility,
for it too occurred." (p. 284)

"Iron use was documented in the statements of early Spaniards, who told of the
Aztecs using iron-studded clubs.  A number of artifacts have been preserved
that are unquestionably of iron; their considerable sophistication, in some
cases, at least suggests interest in this metal.  (That is not surprising, since
even a culture as simple as the Eskimo found iron--from meteors--valuable.)
Few of these specimens have been chemically analyzed to determine whether the
iron used was from meteors or from smelted ore.  The possibility that smelted
iron either has been or may yet be found is enhanced by a find at Teotihuacan.
A pottery vessel dating to about A.D. 300, and apparently used for smelting,
contained a "metallic-looking" mass.  Analyzed chemically, it proved to contain
copper and iron.  Linne, the same Swedish archaeologist who made that find,
accepted a piece of iron found in a tomb at Mitla, Oaxaca, as probably refined.

"Without even considering smelted iron, we find that peoples in Mesoamerica
exploited iron minerals from early times.  Lumps of hematite, magnetite, and
ilmenite were brought into Valley of Oaxaca sites from some of the thirty-six
ore exposures located near or in the valley.  These were carried to a workshop
section within the site of San Jose Mogote as early as 1200 B.C.  There they
were crafted into mirrors by sticking the fragments onto prepared mirror backs
and polishing the surface highly.  These objects, clearly of high value, were
traded at considerable distances....but perhaps the strangest interest of all
in iron materials on the part of the ancients has recently come to light.
There is now reason to think that magnetite was used by the Olmecs to make
compasses....

"This is till not the whole story on iron, however.  In the Near East, Akkadian,
Hittite, and Egyptian names for iron meant something like "metal from heaven,"
for some iron had fallen as meteors.  The Egyptians inferred that the sky
was made of iron, although smelted terrestrial iron in the Near East was also
very early, perhaps 5000 B.C.  When the Spaniards asked the Aztecs where they 
obtained iron, they pointed to the sky.  Their astronomers had seen and recorded
meteors falling.  The amount of iron obtainable from meteors was not trivial.
H. H. Nininger, a leading authority on meteorites, has estimated that 50,000
tons of this material falls on the earth yearly.  Much of this is usable iron.
A number of huge chunks have been discovered in Mexico.  One of them, the
Bacubirito specimen in Sinaloa, is 13 feet long and is estimated to weigh 27
tons.  Rural people in its vicinity have made chunks of it into implements.
It would not be surprising if the Nephites included meteoric metal among the
"all manner of...iron" known to them (2 Nephi 5:15).  (pp. 284-286)

"'Steel' is another complex problem.  Nibley has discussed how uncertain we
remain about what might be meant by 'steel' in ancient Old world texts.
The King James translators were unclear on the point; several places where
they put 'steel' now would be translated 'bronze.'  Even experts have a
problem, as suggested by a recent technical article entitled 'Steel in
Antiquity: A Problem in Terminology.'  In Mexico we face similar obscurity.
The native chronicler tezozomoc reported that the Tarascans (Mesoamerica's
most noted metallurgists at the time of the Spanish conquest) wore 'steel'
helmets.  Since we know so little about either our Nephite text or the
materials and processes in use in prehispanic Mesoamerica, we all would do well
to not jump to conclusions about the accuracy or inaccuracy of such a
statement." (p. 286)

"We have seen that the metals mentioned in the Book of Mormon can, for the
most part, be accounted for in Mesoamerica.  So far as there is a significant
problem, it concerns dating.  But the chronological picture of metal use is
changing too, as we saw earlier.  What the Book of Mormon says of these 
substances has its problems still, but it is interesting how different the
entire topic looks today than, say, a quarter century ago." (p. 287)

Sorenson then briefly discussed the similarities of names of metal between
the Near east and Mesoamerica.  For example, "a Maya word for gold, 'nab'
or 'naab', parallels Egyptian 'noub', 'gold'."  "Egyptian 'hymty' compares
closely with Zoquean 'hama-tin' (gold or silver)." (p. 287)

He then concluded his discussion of metals with the following:

"Where is the Book of Mormon left by all the metal data?  First, both in the
Book of Mormon and in what we know from Mesoamerica, metals were used more
for decorative, ceremonial, and 'precious' ends than for utility.  In neither
the scriptural account nor the secular record do we discover good reasons
why metals were not more fully employed (or why we fail to find more evidence
of it if they were).  A bit of light is shed on why the Nephites considered
some ores 'precious.'  But the questions remaining, both for students of
the Book of Mormon and for scholars on Mesoamerica are vast.  The conventional
scientific view about the role of metal in Mesoamerica, and particularly
about its date, is in the process of major change.  Scholarly developments
on the topic in the coming decade will be worth watching." (p. 288)
155.2Hey, I'm a ramblin' guy....HDSRUS::HANSENO! I have slip't the surly bonds...Tue Feb 14 1989 15:34100
Re:  Note 31.37  by GENRAL::RINESMITH   24-APR-1988 23:02
              (Amazing how time flies.) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Howdy all,

>>             Interestingly enough, archaeologists are now uncovering
>>         evidence from this time period that tends to verify this high
>>         state of civilization, Indeed, some archaeologists have now
>>         admitted that these people had some skills that we do not
>>         possess today. 
         
         
>>    In addition, there is much evidence to indicate that iron and steel
>>    were known much earlier, even in the old world, than had originally
>>    been thought. 
    
>	This is just not true.  Can you present any non-MORMON
>    proof/sources to verify this?
    

  I took my 6-year-old son to the library last week to get some books on
archaeology.  Ever since watching the Discovery special sponsored by Digital
last year, he has been almost obsessed with the subject--digging holes in the
back yard (searching for remnants of "ancient Americans"), gathering every
rock in sight (claiming they're ancient artifacts), and dictating letters
to archaeologists to request information on the subject.  Anyway, at the
library he picked out three books: one on Tutankhamen and his treasures,
one on digging up bones, and one (that I nudged him in the direction of,
since it looked interesting to me) called MYSTERIES FROM FORGOTTEN WORLDS
(subtitled "Rediscovering a lost civilization in the Americas and under
the sea."), by Charles Berlitz.  This is the first I have heard of this man,
and I don't think he is a Mormon.  Here is all it says on the inside of the
back cover about him:

     Charles Berlitz is the grandson of the man who founded the Berlitz 
     language schools.  He himself has a working knowledge of some thirty
     languages, and he first became interested in archaeology through his
     study of Egyptian hieroglyphics.  His linguistic ability was a tre-
     mendous help in the preparation of this book, enabling him to read
     numerous of the ancient texts in the original.  An expert scuba diver
     as well, Mr. Berlitz has also explored many of the strange ruins
     which have been discovered beneath the sea.
    
As for skills, mentioned above, which we wouldn't expect ancient Americans to
have had:

     We do not know, for example, how the ancient Peruvians were able to move
     enormous monoliths and fit them so exactly together with the tools they
     had at hand, nor how they were able to perform delicate operations of
     trepanning, the removal of a section of the skull and the insertion of
     a gold or copper plate, a form of brain surgery, as well as other delicate
     operations concerned with filling and capping teeth, or the system of
     medicine which led to the development of drugs at an early period, or how
     the Colombian Chibchas and the Peruvian Chimus plated precious metals
     without the use of electricity.......

     We do not even know the true names of many of the vanished Amerindian
     cultures, but simply ascribe to them the names of the present places
     where their remains have been found.

     ***Berlitz, Charles, Mysteries From Forgotten Worlds, Doubleday and Co.,
        inc., Garden City, New York, 1972, pp. 55, 56.

As an aside, I have seen a photograph of a skull, dated to BoM times, with a
copper plate inserted in a hole in the skull.  The bone had grown around the
edges of the plate, indicating that the patient had lived for several years
after receiving the plate.  The photograph was part of a presentation given by
a Mormon scholar whose name I have forgotten (Anderson?), but who had done
extensive research in many of the ruins of South and Central America.  He also
had photos of implements made of iron, and (what were beleived to be) surgical
tools made of copper which had not corroded and which were harder than any
copper alloy manufacturable by present technology--the presenter said the only
thing that could scratch it was diamond, yet some of these tools were as sharp
as the finest surgical scalpels available today.  The Book of Mormon does
mention that even as early as ~580 B.C. the people were extremely skilfull in
working with many different kinds of metals.  I mention this as a parallel--the
above excerpt from the (non-Mormon) source only shows that the Book of Mormon
could be an account written by actual participants in the history described,
since the knowledge that such technology was practiced by the ancient Americans
was not generally available in Joseph Smith's day.

I am only on page 68 of this book, and I will post any other tidbits that may
relate to Rich's assertion and Roger's challenge.  As a side note on the book,
I find it very well written and very thought-provoking.  I am amazed at some of
the knowledge and technology possessed by even very early wanderers on this
globe--such as a map of the world dated 1513, made, according to a note attached
to it, as a copy of a very old map which was deteriorating, which showed the
*ACTUAL* coastline of Antarctica (which couldn't even be verified until this
century when the necessary equipment became available to detect the land beneath
the two-mile-thick ice).  It also showed the coasts of both North and South
America and it was apparent that the mapmakers understood the concept of the
shape of the earth, as well as of longitude and lattitude.  Ground optical
lenses have been found in 600 B.C. ruins of the city of Ninevah, as well as in
South American ruins, yet these do not even explain 4000 year-old descriptions
of the planet Uranus and its moons and their behavior.  There's been a lot of
interesting things in the first 68 pages.  Looking forward to the rest.

Sorry to ramble on,

Dave
155.3CACHE::LEIGHModeratorWed Apr 25 1990 13:254
Since this note is discussing metals in Ancient America and not metals in
translation of the Book of Mormon, I've moved all of the reples that are
discussing the translation of the word "steel" in the KJV and the BoM to
note 62.