Conference tecrus::mormonism

    RE:0
    
    Scott,
    
      First fruit of your income Holy unto the Lord!
    
    You tithe after the taxes are taken out, (Just the money you receive).
    
    No, it does not make a differance hat you occupation!
    
    Also, I would like to add, that, We should all tithe on our
    State/Federal income tax return.
    
    Lorenzo
    

 Hi Scott,
    I probably should not say anything about this for if we 
    wait Allen will give us the etched in stone "Oficial" documented
    L.D.S. Church policy.  It is probably in Note 4 some place. I am 
    not as together as Allen (who I appreciate very much) but I could 
    share with you what I have been taught in the Mormon church.
    
    We are taught to pay 10% of our increase to the Lord.  It is true
    we do believe in giving Cesar his cut but we believe in paying
    Father first.  That means we return 10% of what we are given, to
    He who has given it to us.  Yes, 10% of the pre tax gross.  
    
    I have a close friend who paid $4,000.00 tithe on the $40,000.00
    increase in the value of a house she has just sold.  This was an
    "Increase" to her as advised by her bishop.  We are instructed
    as wage or salary earners to pay tithe on the gross which makes
    it simple to calculate. Others in business or self employed are
    instructed to council with their Bishop and of cousre we are to
    seek the influence of the Spirit in all we do.
    
    The money I send to my daughter in college is already tithed as
    my increase.  The money I give her is her increase and she should
    pay tihing on that.  We each should pay on our increase no matter
    where the money comes from.  Even if the money is tax free as when
    I was disabled for 4 years and recieved SSI disability payments,
    I still paid tihting.
    
    The Lord invites us to test Him in the Doctrine and Covenants
    Sec. 24:10
    
    	10. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there
        may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the
    	Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven,
    	and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough
    	to recieve it.
    
    I have proved the Lord and while I do not count myself as nearly
    as good as I want to be, I can bear witness to the benifits of being
    allowed to pay tithing.  He has been extremely generous to me.
    
    With Love in Christ,
    -gary
    		
    	

    Re: .0
        
    This is a good question. 
    
    The official church policy on tithing is this:
    
         TITHING
         
         Definition of Tithing
         
         The First Presidency has written: "The simplest statement
         we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely,
         that the members of the Church should pay 'one-tenth of
         all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean
         income. No one is justified in making any other statement
         than this." (First Presidency letter dated 19 March 1970;
         see D&C 119).
         
         General Handbook of Instructions, Oct 1985, p 10-1
         
    Ok, then, should we pay tithing on gross income (before deductions) or
    on net income (after deductions)? That is between the member of the
    church and the Lord to determine. For me, the answer was simple, since
    I view tithing as a principle with a promise, therefore, 
    
         Do I want gross blessings or net blessings from the Lord? 
        
    I, too, feel greatly blessed of the Lord by this principle.
    
    In His Love,
    Rich
        

I love this topic. Although it seems, on the surface, that tithing is
a simple rule (10% of your total, gross increase), it really isn't 
simple at all. Of course, I'm in finance. It's my job to make money 
matters complicated. ;-)

For one thing, what about self-employed people. They take in X dollars
in the course of a year, and pay Y dollars out as expenses in
generating that income. Technically, they should pay tithing on X.
That would not be fair, however, because if they incorporated
themselves, then the *corporation* gets the X and the corporation
owner gets only X-Y. Tithing only then needs to be paid on X-Y. I find
it fascinating that the amount of tithing should, if only in a
technical sense, hinge on a modern, artificial construct such as
whether one has incorporated oneself. 

I would say that it would be OK for self-employed persons to deduct 
the expenses necessary to generate their business's income. But where 
do you draw the line as to what is OK to deduct or not OK? If you pay 
for lunch for yourself and a client, should you not deduct the cost of 
your own meal? If your business pays for a company car that you use 
personally, should you include in tithable income some amount relative 
to your personal use of the car?

And assuming one sorts these things out, how do they apply to us 
regular people who are not self-employed. Do you pay tithing on meals 
that Digital pays for when you are out on business? If you are lucky 
enough to have a Digital-company-car, do you pay tithing on that? Do 
these things qualify as an 'increase'?

Another example might be insurance proceeds. Seemingly, you pay for 
insurance proceeds through your insurance payments. If, say, your 
spouse dies and you get $10,000, that amount is not recognized as 
income by the government. The government considers that $10,000 check 
as something you bought and paid for. Should it also be considered
'bought and paid for' and not as income when computing tithing? And if
you consider it as income, then shouldn't you have been deducting your
insurance premiums from tithable income on the theory that you'll pay
tithing when the insurance pays off? 

And what about the expenses that the insurance policy was meant to 
cover, like funeral expenses. If your spouse's funeral costs, say, 
$3,000, should you deduct that from the $10,000 when computing a 
tithable amount? After all, it isn't an 'increase' to you, is it? 
Would your answer be different if the insurance company paid the 
funeral director directly? Why should that make a difference? And if 
you consider the cost of the funeral an 'increase' on which you should 
pay tithing, doesn't it seem the least bit distasteful to be paying 
tithing on someone's funeral? Does the Lord really want you to do 
that?

Tithing is actually not a simple matter, although we can choose to 
think of it in simple terms. It is my personal belief that this is
also true of all of the Gospel principles. It is really up to us to
determine how deeply we will drink of the Gospel, and the Lord has set
things up to see how well we do. 

Even with tithing, which seems so uncomplicated on the surface, we are
invited to really *think* about what we are doing. We should never
just assess our responsibility in a superficial way, and then blindly
obey and forget it. Even with tithing. 

Obviously, the Lord doesn't need the money. Tithing is ultimately for
our benefit, both temporally and spiritually. We have all heard many
testimonies of various temporal blessings received as a result of
faithful tithe-paying. But beyond that, the Lord set up tithing to see
how we would deal with the principles involved: How honest will we be
with the Lord? How much do we recognize that *all* good things come
from Him? Those questions are quantitative, but *not* measured in 
*dollars*.

I love the logical beauty in the principle of tithing. You can see the
hand of the Lord in it. 

Love in Christ,
/kevin

    
      Why does man seem to like to take a simple matter and complicate
    it?To me,tithing is a guidline.It is an individual choice and is
    between us and God.It should be based on our individual committment
    to serve the Lords cause.We should work it out with him,on a personal
    level,then we will know in our heart that he is pleased with the
    committment we have made.This may change as we change ourselves.He
    will bless us according to our work for him,which includes our time,
    more than our money.Dont get hung up on the letter of the text,but,
    be flexible,as i believe the Lord would be.
     
      Peace
      Michael
    

    Re: .4
    
    Yes, I know what you mean, Kevin. I struggled with these kinds of
    questions when I was a college student and had a scholarship. Should
    the scholarship be tithed? How about the tuition credit, which I did
    not receive directly, but was paid for me? I received an allowance for
    room and board, but had I not had the scholarship I would have gone to
    the university in my home town and lived with my parents, so should I
    pay tithing on the room and board allowance? 
    
    I find it hard to remember exactly how I handled the tithing on my
    scholarship some 17 years ago, but I did give it a lot of thought, came
    up with the best solution that I could in my own understanding, and
    then went to the Lord for confirmation in prayer. Through that process
    I was able to determine, with the Lord's help, what my "increase" was. 
    
    In His Love,
    Rich

I enjoy talking about tithing because it illustrates so much about
commandments and obedience. 

RE: < Note 110.6 by RIPPLE::KOTTERRI "Rich Kotter" >
>    I find it hard to remember exactly how I handled the tithing on my
>    scholarship some 17 years ago, but I did give it a lot of thought, came
>    up with the best solution that I could in my own understanding, and
>    then went to the Lord for confirmation in prayer. Through that process
>    I was able to determine, with the Lord's help, what my "increase" was. 
    
I believe the concept of tithing is centered on exactly this kind of 
process. If we do not include some reflection with our tithing 
payment, we are cheating the Lord, and cheating ourselves. 

Some of the things we are invited to recognize when we determine our 
tithing amount are:

the boundless generosity of the Lord,
the Lord gave us everything we have anyway,
the depth of our commitment to His commandments,
the extent of our materialist orientation.

Probably y'all can think of 99 more. But these are the things of
which tithing is all about. Not the money. If one goes through this
examination process and comes to some conclusion with which the Lord is
invited to help, as Rich has illustrated for us, then (and I
personally think *only* then) does one fulfill the intent of the law. 

In His Name,
/kevin

We are commanded to 'be perfect.' Presumably that means be perfect in 
all things, including *how* we obey the commandments.

Take tithing, for example. What is a *perfect* payment of tithing? 
Assuming you and the Lord have arrived at a mutually satisfactory 
amount, isn't there still more to it?

If you go to the bishop and throw the carefully calculated amount of
money on his desk and growl, "Here's your <bleep>ing 30 pieces of 
silver!", then I'd say it was less than a perfect tithing payment 8*).

Not that anyone ever literally does that, but surely there are some 
who feel that way. Even so, aren't they obeying the law? The law
doesn't say '*cheerfully* pay 10%,' it just says 'pay 10%.' 

I'm not advocating being rude to the bishop; I'm just trying to 
illustrate that there are plenty of aspects to tithing and that it 
isn't a 'simple' thing at all.


Grateful for the commandments,
/kevin

To me, the bottom line is to follow the guidance of the Spirit in 
deciding about tithing.  The Church avoids a detailed definition of
"increase" because the Lord wants each individual/family to seek His
guidance through prayer.  I'm grateful for the law of tithing as well
as the other contributations that we make.  As Malachi said, it is
nice to have those heavenly windows open....

Allen

    Tough question.  I have a few thoughts that may be of interest...
    
    As to 10% of gross, this is by definition exclusive of deductions.
    However, increase means (to me) that this is what is left over after
    business-related expenses have been paid.  I believe that tithing
    is business-related.  For example, if I invested $100 in the bank and 
    earned no interest, there is no increase when I extract the $100.  If 
    that $100 investment was in stocks that zoomed in value to $5000, then 
    in October fell to $100 when I made my withdrawal there is still no 
    increase.  My investment and loss of $4900 has virtually no impact on the
    tithing that I should render.  But, it may have great impact as far as 
    my taxes and such go.  If I got $125 out (gross), my increase (net)
    is $25.  The original amount of $100 is not to be tithed, but the $25
    is, in spite of the $4875 loss.  
        
    What if I'm in the 90% income bracket?  Do I give the remaining
    10% to the Church?  Or, do I just get taxed on the 10% that the
    government leaves me?  My own practice is to pay 10% on the gross.
    The way I figure it, I am buying something by paying taxes and that
    is the government that rules this land.  I feel that taxes are coming
    out of my increase and that they are not an expense as a result
    of my doing business.  Granted, it is mandatory, but so is car
    insurance in Mass, and I have to pay tithing on the money I pay
    for that.  If I don't like how the money is spent, it's my
    responsibility to effect changes in the government to change that.
    It is not necessarily justified for me to avoid paying tithing on
    the money the government gets just because I don't like how they
    spend it.  Why penalize the Lord for the errors of others or of
    myself for not taking action to change the government?  But, what
    if the taxes are too high?  This is a judgement call.  Obviously
    in the 90% bracket it would be absurd to pay all of the remaining
    amount to the Church, neglecting the needs of my family and such.
    So, I will have to pay tithing on some fraction of the gross income.
    I would expect that it would be between my Bishop and me as to where
    I should draw the line.  Note that in the end it is what is determined
    between the individual and the Bishop as to whether a full tithe
    has been paid as far as the records of the Church go.  I think that
    it is also between the individual and the Lord as to whether a full
    tithe has been paid, too.
    
    What about the money given to my wife for her household expenses?
    Well, I pay tithing on that, so what I give to her is already tithed.
    The money itself is not her increase.  It is what she uses to operate
    the household.  Her increase is in the results of here labors such
    as a happy family and household.  What is 'tithed' is in terms of
    how we use this family and environment to benefit others as well
    as ourselves.  

    What about gifts?  Well, if my Dad gives me a coat worth $100 I
    have an increase of $100 value.  Should I pay $10 tithing?  I don't
    think that's what the Lord had in mind.  I don't feel that gifts
    are considered part of business.  So, if my Dad gives me $100 cash,
    I don't feel that I need to pay tithing on that.  If, however, my
    Dad gives me $100 allowance, that's business and should be tithed.
    Note that in the case of a gift, my Dad was responsible for payment
    of the tithing for the money used to get the gift.  He was not making
    an investment by giving me the gift in that he was not looking for
    any kind of business returns.  However, in giving me an allowance,
    he hopes to reap a business return (probably me doing a little work
    around the house or whatever).  It is a break-even situation for
    him if he gets his money's worth out of me.  But, as a gift, there
    is no business - no intention of financial increase.
    
    What about insurance benefits?  Should I pay $10,000 tithing if
    I get $100,000 payment of my medical costs from an accident?
    Again, that's not business.  So, I don't feel I should have to cough
    up $10,000 which I don't have.  I don't look at the $100,000 as
    a business increase but more a that has been provided to make up for 
    a personal loss.

    What about welfare benefits?  These should definitely be tithed.
    If not monetarily, then in the form of some kind of service that
    can be rendered.  This is the kind of thing that the individual
    can work out with the Bishop.
        
    What about scholarships?  Doesn't this involve the business of students? 
    Well, in my book, someone who is only a student (no job on the side
    or whatever) is receiving a gift as far as finances go.  But, what the 
    student is really getting from the business point of view is an
    education.  After all, education is the real business of the student.
    It is this education that perhaps is tithable.  How can it be 'paid'?  
    By the student returning to the Lord benefits from the education
    received.  How, since that can't be put on a check?  By being of
    service and putting that education to the use and unselfish benefit
    of others where possible.  This is really an area that I think is
    better covered by the commandment (as President Benson referred
    to it in the last General Conference) that to whom much is given,
    much is expected.
    
    One other thing I'd like to throw in.  (Again, most of this is my
    personal opinion.)  Tithing is a commandment of the Lord and those
    who live by it will be blessed.  My feeling is that people who are
    not LDS, but who faithfully abide by this law by paying tithes to
    churches which they honestly believe to be of the Lord may also reap 
    the blessings promised with this commandment, just as they reap
    the benefits for obedience to the other commandments of the Lord.
    It's not good practice to knock the good that people do, regardless
    of religion.  We are all the Lord's children and are all subject
    to the penalties and rewards that accompany each of His commandments.
    
    
    Steve

I have another question regarding tithing.  What about missionaries and others
who receive money from the tithing funds?  Should they tithe?  When I was on my
mission I did not tithe because I was counseled not to.  I can't remember who
gave me that counsel. 

Thanks in advance for all the replies. 

scott 

RE: < Note 110.11 by NEXUS::S_JOHNSON >

   >What about missionaries...

To my knowledge, missionaries do not receive anything from the tithing 
funds of the Church. Any assistance they may receive from the Church 
is usually given by their local wards over and above any tithing. 

This still begs the question of whether missionaries should tithe. I
once asked the missionaries in our ward on what basis they tithe. They
said they are not supposed to tithe because they are already
consecrating everything (for two years) to the Lord's service. I do
not know if this was just a mission rule, or a universal rule, but I
suspect it is universal. 

   >and others
   >who receive money from the tithing funds?  Should they tithe?

The Church has many persons working full-time. Some are regular
employees, such as secretaries, etc. Some work full-time as a result
of their callings, such as Mission Presidents and General
Authorities. My understanding is that all such persons are expected to
be members in good standing, i.e. full tithe-payers. 

But I may be wrong.

/kevin

    My mission was paid for with money that I saved and with money that
    my family kicked in.  It was all already tithed, so there was no question. 
    If a missionary is sponsored by a ward, it is expected that the
    funds used have already been tithed.  The only case I can think
    of where a missionary should pay tithing would be if his mission
    was being paid for by, for example, a large, interest-bearing account.
    Otherwise, missionaries are not considered as drawing any income.  It 
    would be inappropriate, in my opinion, for someone saving up for a 
    mission to not pay tithing on the money being saved.  Similarly, money
    contributed for fast offerings and such should also have already
    been tithed.  If someone who is not LDS contributes to a mission
    (and the contribution was not tithed), I would consider this a gift 
    which need not be tithed by the recipient.  Again, this is my opinion.
    
    Steve

    I thought that if I mentioned things I tithed it would show how
    I view it.
    
    I have tithed the following:
    
    .Paychecks before taxes (either annually, weekly, or monthly)
    .Inheritances that were changed into cash
    .Other monetary gifts or earnings
    .Profit from the sale of stock
    
    I do not tithe the following:
   
    .Mileage remibursements from DEC
    .Profit from sale of house, when that profit is put into buying
     another one or a similar investment.
    .Non-monetary gifts or increase, i.e. neighbors sometimes give us
     clothes, or produce from my garden.
    
    At the end of the year I try to put in an extra $100-200 dollars
    in tithing to cover any thing I may have forgotten.
    
    As for tithing already tithed dollars, I worked for the Church for
    2 years and the salary I received was from tithing dollars. I tithed
    my salary during these 2 years.
    
    Tithing is a blessing, not a duty.  I feel it an honor to be able
    to tithe.  As we understand it, the universe's is the Lord's.  My
    feeling is that I return to him what is realy his anyway.
    
    Paul
    
    PS. Wasn't conference great!  Especially President Hinckley's closing
     discourse and testimony of Jesus Christ.    
                                        

    With regard to missionaries, the General Handbook says that
    missionaries should not pay tithing, unless they have income from
    investments, and they should pay tithing on that income.
    
    Rich

    Paul, I like the way you put it.  It's sometimes hard to really
    lay down rules for tithing because there seem to be lots of exceptions.
    In addition, as one's level of commitment rises it seems that tithing
    is only a fraction of what one renders.  The idea of rendering a
    full tithe at some point becomes rather moot due to this higher level
    of commitment.  
    
    Sometimes when I see other folks make generous and unselfish offerings
    of their time or resources I feel a twinge of guilt and a bit of
    inspiration to do the same.  Then I remember that I am already doing
    it in terms of time, energy and resources.  Of course I can do better,
    and the good examples set by others push me to improve and do
    more.  I have nothing to boast of.  But, the fact that I so easily 
    discount and forget the things that I already do helps me to
    understand the admonition to let the left hand not know what the
    right hand is doing (Matthew 6:1-3).  Sometimes, if there is too
    much focus on rendering only a full tithe there can be a problem.
    
    
    Steve

    [BRich,
    
    I agree with you. I hope my family and I will receive "gross" blessings
    so I have never really worried about how much I should tithe.
    
    When we consider the gross/net question, other factors should
    also be included. Let's consider all renumeration one receives,
    including holidays (vacation) and holiday pay, pension (retirement)
    payments made by employers, differences in taxing, including state,
    federal, and even differences in countries.
    I live and work in Holland. The tax rates are very very high here
    and some  brothers and sisters say that gross tithing is different
    here than in the states because of the large difference in taxing.
    My reply is that in the US, very few people enjoy 30+ payed vacation
    days (that is,  payed with about an extra month's salary as vacation pay),
    retirement schemes are generally different in the US, etc. etc.
    
    What I am trying to say is that, everything is equitable when we
    consider the overall picture of our world and where we work, play,
    and follow the gospel the Lord knows what he is doing.
                                                         
    Greetings,
    
    Charles
    
    

  My personal belief is that tithing should be applied to our increase, which
  is our gross.  All documents that I receive sho my increase to be my gross,
  though I only have direct control over the net.  My increase is still my
  gross, and the Fed. Govnmnt thinks so too :-)   The taxes I pay are still
  an increase to me, as I do receive protection, roads, services, etc. through
  these taxes.  Besides, I'd rather pay too much than too little.

CHad

    
    Will someone explain what percent Mormons define a tithe to be?
    I always thought it was 10% and this note seems to say 10%, but
    my wife's cousin has to pay 13%. This breaks down to 10% for the
    main church, 2.5% to run his local church and an additional .5%
    for the building fund.
                                         
    

    Re: Note 110.19 by NWACES::ROHNERT

>                          -< How much is a tithe? >-

    Tithing is 10%. It is used to pay for most of the cost of building
    buildings, and many of the operational costs of the church. Local
    church units are asked to raise a portion of the cost of building their
    church houses, and to pay for some of their local expenses from their
    Budget fund. 
    
    In addition to tithing, members are encouraged to contribute Fast
    Offerings, which are used to assist the poor, as well as to the Budget
    and to the Missionary Fund. No fixed percentage of income is specified
    for these categories, but members are generally encouraged to be as
    generous as they can. 
    
    There is a scriptural precedent for tithes *and* offerings. See Malachi
    3:8. 
    
    Rich

    Hi!
    
    Been a while since I have responded, but I have a area of concern 
    I would like to hear your comments on.
    
    What are thoughts on tithing on the money that is set aside on the
    SAVE plan. If some of you are in it, do do tithe up front or
    do you employ deferred tithing (as represented by W2 income).
    I am interested in any comments and your thoughts on this.
    
    Other areas of similar type are IRA's, Keough plans; retire-
    ment plans where income is deferred. Also, your thoughts
    on tithing on social security and other benefits.
    
    Also on the determination of full tithepayer status. Is this an
    individual decision or do you believe that the bishop plays a part
    in determination.  I am referring mainly in regards to temple
    recommend criteria, where bishops are required to ask certain 
    questions, and make determinations. 
    
    The reason I have asked this is because me and my Bishop have 
    had several discussions concerning these type of things;
    (I'm his 1st counselor) and I'd like to hear comments any of
    you might have.
    
    Kevin St Thomas 
    

Hi Kevin,

I pay tithing on my gross before deductions of any kind.  At tithing settlement,
my Bishop asks me if I am a full tithpayer, but he has never inquired about my
"algorithm" for paying it, i.e. I declare my status to him, and it is a matter
between me and the Lord not between me and the Bishop.

Allen

I too tithe my gross before deductions.  However, things like money in SAVE 
and whatnot increase in value (interest!).  That interest hasn't been 
tithed yet.  I am going to tithe that when I actually retrieve it out.  Several
reasons: 

 1.  It is not money now.  It is in the form of "shares" whose value
changes.  WHen I actually see the increase (ie, remove it out from the program 
as cash), I'll tithe it.

 2.  It would be hard to track investments and tithe them as the value changes.
For example, I invest 100 dolars (already tithed) in stock.  Tomorrow it has 
a value of $120.  Should I immediatly tithe this "gain" of $20?  What happens 
if it goes down the next day to $90?  Did I really have a gain?

 3.  I don't consider it an increase until I can use it.

Actually, these reasons are all the same looked at differently

Chad

Hi, Kevin,

This has probably been said elsewhere, but I'll toss it in anyway. The 
First Presidency has written: "The simplest statement we know of is the 
statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church 
should pay 'one-tenth of ALL their interest annually,' which is understood 
to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than 
this." (Emphasis mine)

So in the case of the normal kinds of 'net' versus 'gross,' I would say
that tithing applies to the gross number. But there is still the question
of what is 'income.' Deferred income is a particularly ambiguous subject as
it applies to tithing. 

On the one hand, you could define deferred income as just that: income that
you have not received, but which has been deferred to another annual
period. You could argue that there is no difference between 401K plans and
a company retirement benefit, except for who does the investing of the
money in the meantime. 

On the other hand, you could define deferred income as just another form of 
personal savings, which in this case is held until retirement. If you think 
of it this way, it would be just as tithable as any money you put aside as 
savings, the only difference being the tax treatment, which is a matter 
between you and the government, not you and the Lord.

There are at least a zillion other examples of how tithing can be
ambiguous. Insurance proceeds, for example. What if you have an accident
and an Allstate forklift brings you several bales of money. Is it income?
Even if it only covers your medical costs? Even if you paid insurance
premiums in order to receive that lump sum? Is just the portion of the
proceeds in excess of your payments tithable? How is that different from,
say, Blue Cross/Blue Shield? You also pay them a premium, but then you
receive a valuable medical service from time to time. Is the retail cost of
those services tithable? Or just the portion in excess of your premium
costs? Or did you pay for the service in the form of premiums? How is that
different from receiving a lump sum of money? Dizzy yet?

Actually, I think this ambiguity is intentional on the part of the Lord. He
has also said that "it is not meet that I should command in all things; for 
he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise 
servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward." (D&C 58:26) So the Lord is not 
about to produce a 'tithing handbook,' which in any event would necessarily
need updating from time to time. 

On the contrary, He wants each of us to thoughtfully consider exactly *what
we are doing* when we pay our tithing. He also wants us to come to Him and 
ask for guidance. The ambiguity of tithing calculations is an excellent 
device to get us to do both. How many of us would bother doing either of
those things if somebody gave us, in effect, a tithing 'bill' with a
precise amount in dollars and cents? 

So the procedure is to go to the Lord with whatever questions may arise,
and come to terms with Him. This is the only way that you can feel
comfortable about declaring yourself a full-tithepayer anyway. 

Personally, I think asking the Bishop for guidance is inappropriate. And I
think it's equally inappropriate for the Bishop to give it, beyond
repeating the First Presidency's statement, and stating that we must each
go to the Lord with these questions. It's none of the Bishop's business
beyond that, nor is it his role to make the determination of
full-tithepayer status. But it isn't an individual determination either. I
think that declaring to the Bishop that you are a full-tithepayer implies a
declaration that you have reached agreement with the Lord. The "correct" 
number derives from this agreement, not from an algorithm.

IMHO,
/kevin

    I think Kevin has given a very good answer to how to deal with this
    question. For myself, I have come to the conclusion that Chad has,
    which is to tithe my gross income before deductions, but to defer
    tithes on the interest or appreciation of assets or potential assets
    until they are liquidated.
    
    I had a similar challenge in college, when I received a scholarship
    that included tuition waiver, housing stipend, and reimbursement for
    books. I couldn't afford to pay tithes on the whole value of the
    scholarship, if I had to pay it myself, since I didn't actually receive
    most of the money. It was, in a sense, funny money. Also, if I had
    stayed at home and gone to the local school, my costs for my education
    would have been less (though unreimbursed). In spite of this, the
    scholarship did amount to a form of income. After much prayer and
    thought, I determined to pay tithes on the amount that my education
    would have cost me, if I had stayed at home and paid for it myself, but
    didn't have to because of the scholarship. I felt good about this
    approach, and felt that I received guidance in a difficult
    determination.
    
    Rich 

    re: .22
    
    Hi Allen,
    
    In our ward our Bishop actively counsels our tithepaying members
    and asks them what formula they use, and counsels them to what
    he believes is the correct way on tithing, this usually happens at
    recommend time, for this is when he makes a determination of
    members worthiness. 
    
    One thing I have found is that we all have our various ways of
    dealing with this. I believe that only once one has one gone to the
    Lord in prayer can one find the answer that he is seeking.
    The statement by the 1st presidency in the Gen. Handbook covers
    it to the extent that it allows enough ambiguity that each individual
    may be allowed to make his own determination on this matter.
    
    As, for my bishop, he believes that it is his responsibility to
    counsel members on what he feels is correct and work with them
    to this end. As far as temple recommends go, he has been given
    the keys to make that deternination of worthiness of the member,
    and full tithpaying status is part of that criteria. He takes
    the opportunity to counsel members on what full tithpaying means.
     
    Kevin
    

    RE .24
    
    Kevin,
    
    Thanx for your remarks you have made and thanx to all the rest of you
    for your comments. I had come to an understanding with the lord
    on these matters until my bishop and I got into this. As his counselor,
    my role is to counsel on matters of the ward. By the same token,
    once my bishop, or any bishop for that matter, has determined some
    sort of practice, ie, counseling on the "correct" way to tithe to
    members, as he does ,my role is to sustain, however, not without
    futher counsel as to the wisdom of his actions. I agree in principle
    with your comments on bishops and their participation in deter-
    mining status, however some do become an active part of this de-
    termination, as my bishop does, and it does affect member's 
    status as to worthiness to receive greater blessings. As you said,
    it may be "none of their business" (hope I got your quote right)
    but some do make it their "their business" .
    
    Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Yes, there are a lot of differences in the way that individual Bishops, and
people in general, approach their tasks.  I think there is an interesting
parallel between people and organizations.  Some organizations are very 
highly centralized, and policy is tightly controlled from the top down.  Other
companies are more distributed and allow policies to be determined from a
wider (and lower in terms of the hierarchy) set of officials.

Your Bishop is apparently a "centralized" person who feels that part of his
calling is to be involved in the "policies" adopted by individual members.
My Bishops have been "distributed" people who feel that they should have a
limited role in the individual "policies".

This is not a case of right or wrong, but a case of individual differences
between people.  Since we have a lay ministry on the Ward and Stake levels,
we should expect such differences to exist and not be alarmed by them.  This
situation does, however, increase the possibility that "centralized" and
"distributed" people might have problems coexisting in church organizations
when they are involved in the same activities.  Such is life....  Struggling
to make such coexistences occur is part of the learning process for which we
came to this earth.

Allen

    
    Hi Allen,
    
    I like your analogy. In our monthly stake leadership meetings
    we often speak about these relationships, but more towards Bishops
    delegating to counselors various responsibilities vs. handling
    admistrative details themselves.  Yes, I agree, my Bishop tends
    to be centralized in his approach, while I tend to be more
    distributive in my approach, allowing individuals to take ownership
    for their decisions and thus the blessings as they grow in the
    gospel. We have been pretty successful in reconciling our different
    ideas on many matters, tithing being just one of the areas.
    
    I believe that we see the same thing happen on the stake level.
    Our stake tends to be centralized, but bishops still have flexibility
    in what they can do.
    
    Kevin