Conference tecrus::mormonism

    "To every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose
    under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die;"
    Ecclesiastes 3:1-2
    
    When a person is old and has had a good life, we can understand
    when they leave us and go on to the next step in their eternal
    progression.  However, when a child is young and their whole life
    is in front of them, it is very difficult to understand why they
    are taken from us.
    
    Through my studies and thoughts I sum it up this way:  A child that
    comes to us in this world is on loan from our Father, each spirit
    needing to come here to obtain a body and a place in the resurrection.
    Some sprits are stronger than others and this world is not yet ready
    for them.  Therefore they are here for a short time and return quickly
    to their Farther, to dwell with Him and do His work.  In the 137
    section of D&C we see that children that die before the age of
    accountability go to the highest kingdom.  They still have part
    in the family left behind and during the millennium will return
    to those faithful families partaking in the resurrection then. 
    At that time they will grow and progress in all the necessary things
    to keep a celestial reward.
    
   
    
  

    RE:0
    
       To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose
    under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die.
    Eccelesiastes 3:1-2
    
     I heard someone say that, when a baby passes away, they go straight
    to heaven (As an Angel)
    
      Death is one of the hardest things in life for us to accept,
    especially when it's a little innocent child; but we must not forget
    that there's a time and season for everything, and we must continue
    to live according to Gods will, and not give up. There's times that
    death knocks on our door, and takes someone that's VERY dear to
    us, but, when he comes, we have to look towards the hills from which
    cometh our help (The Lord) and thank him that he/she won't have
    to suffer in this world anymore. You mentioned that the child had
    a "strong" loving spirit, well, I feel that's a good sign: But keep
    looking up for your strength.
    
    Lorenzo
    

    
    When we accept the challenge of being born into this world with
    a physical body,we also accept whatever happens,although we wont
    remember it.The physical world operates by physical laws and we
    are subject to those laws.If we are born,and for some reason do
    not live long,due to a number of factors,we return to the spirit
    world,and,to the level which we have gained,according to our
    development.It is determined by how long we are here and what we
    have done.If a child dies at birth or within the first eight years
    of its life,and hasnt done anything real bad,then they will be in
    one of the higher planes,which we call heaven.They then may decide
    to stay where they are,or work to a higher level,or even be born
    again.
     We must remember that our children are individual souls,who are
    at some stage of development already when they come here,and that
    we are only to try to guide and teach them until they are ready
    to go out on their own and face the world and its challenges.They
    must be allowed to learn and experience life in their own way,so
    that they can continue their own development,as we are also.We are
    only a small part of it,but,we will remember and know each other
    in the spirit world.
      I know some of what i am saying is contrary to what christians
    believe,like the idea of coming back,but i am saying what i believe
    through study,experiment,experience,and guidance from the holy ghost.
    Take it for what it is worth to you.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    "Man that is born of woman is of few days....
    Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with
    Thee, Thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
    Job 14:1,5

    "And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me
    to be healed, and is not appointed to death, shall be healed."
    D&C 42:48
    
    Spencer W. Kimball
    "I am positive in my mind that the Lord has planned our destiny.
     We can shorten our lives but I think we can not lengthen them very
    much.  Sometime we'll understand fully, and when we see back from
    the vantage point of the future we shall be satisfied with many
    of the happenings of this life which seemed so difficult for us
    to comprehend.
    
    We knew before we were born that we were coming to the earth for
    bodies and experience and that we would have joys and sorrows, pain
    and comforts, ease and hardships, health and sickness, successes
    and disappointments, and we knew also that we would die.  We accepted
    all these eventualities with a glad heart, eager to accept both
    the favorable and the unfavorable."
    Kimball, Tragedy or Destiny, p. 12.

    
    
    IF the lord has planned our destiny then free agency would suffer
    greatly,One of the prime reasons for being here is for us to choose
    our own destiny.He wants us to choose for ourselves,not for him
    to do it for us.That is why he allows us to suffer the results of
    our mistakes,and enjoy the benifits of our right choices.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    As I was typing in the note I thought about the questions it would
    raise re: destiny = predetermined.  I suggest that another note
    be opened for this as it should be addressed.  Does anyone have
    Spencer Kimball's book?
    
    rich

    But thinking about it a little more...         
                                                   
    I asked myself how free agency applies to children.  When they are
    real young they can exercise it very little.  Most things are done
    by what we call instinct.  As they grow they can exercise free
    agency more.                                   
                                                   
    But what about death.  We can through inaction or accident cause
    our own death, but most of us try to avoid that.  Children on the
    other hand are unable to choose to do those things that would prolong
    or shorten life.  No one chooses to be or not to be sick.  It just
    happens through a course of events such as being deficient in
    nutrients, coming into contact with someone who is sick, or the
    body being imperfect in some manner.
                                                   
    I guess I can explain it by my own example.  A series of events
    led to my sons death.  A divergence from those events at any point
    would have possibly changed the outcome.       
                                                   
    Then again I could say that with my other children in the past 
    that often times a divergence of events could have resulted in their
    deaths.                                        
                                                   
    I don't think that destiny changes free agency.
    
    richard                                     
                                         

    
    Having someone else control your destiny does change free agency.
    
    When we are in charge of our own destiny,then,free agency is in
    force.
    
    Even a child makes decisions based on what they have learned.They
    are free to do so,even if it results in injury or death.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Your discounting that one could choose in the pre-existance to
    be obedient.  I get the feeling you view our life here as distinct.
    Whereas we should view it in context of it's totality.  For children
    that die before the age of accountability there is no need of being
    tested.  They have already chosen.  It is only necessary for them
    to come here to obtain a body of flesh.

    
    
    Yes,i am discounting that,because i dont believe we can choose our
    destiny in that way.We take what comes and determine our own destiny
    by our choices.
    
    Yes,i believe we are all individual souls,and,that we develop ourselves
    over an eternity.I believe we may live many lifetimes if we
    choose,since, one lifetime would not be sufficient for us to experience
    many of the things we may desire to.
    
    I dont see us being here just to be tested,but,to learn and grow.To
    develop ourselves to the level which we desire,and,in doing so we
    become closer to God.It is up to us.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
>    Yes,i believe we are all individual souls,and,that we develop ourselves
>    over an eternity.I believe we may live many lifetimes if we
>    choose,since, one lifetime would not be sufficient for us to experience
>    many of the things we may desire to.
    
    	I've gotta agree with Mike. It simply makes too much sense,
    	that the experiences of this world are unique, and that it takes
    	many lifetimes to gain the wealth of experience and knowledge
    	that a Creator would require. If I choose to experience life
    	as a male human being, how may I obtain the precious knowledge
    	of what motherhood is like? If I am born into circumstances
    	which must lead to my becoming a ruler, such as a king, how
    	may I understand what it is like to be subject to such rule,
    	and therefore wield it properly? The world yields many very
    	important lessons. It would make more sense that they would
    	be learned via successive lifetimes than taught in a classroom
    	in the spirit world. More efficient. Also, God is eternal -
    	why limit His children to one short experience in the Earth?
    	Why, if any and all lessons may be learned in the spirit world,
    	the need for an earthly experience at all? To obtain a body?
    	What need would one who creates universes have of a human body?
    
    	Missionaries that I have spoken with have questioned, what would
    	be the purpose of reincarnation if you only forget the experience?
    	My rejoinder  would be, what purpose does the "veil of
    	forgetfullness" taught in Mormon doctrine serve? There are many
    	people who have memories, of varying clarity, of lives lived
    	in the past. Some of these persons have had memories so clear
    	that they have gone and looked up historical records of the
    	pervious existence - easy enough to do if one believed one were
    	once Ulysses S. Grant, much harder to do if one had been a 
    	country doctor during the Civil War days.
    
    	As for forgetting, nothing is truly forgotten. Since the level
    	of conciousness that dominates our awareness is the intellect,
    	which deals with our five senses and immediate, tangible
    	surroundings, it is hard for us carnal creatures to see the
    	other, more subtle levels, unless especially trained and
	spiritually mature enough to do so. (My beliefs.)
    
    	Oh well, I'm off to 5187::DEJAVU. See ya!
    
    	{Neal}
    	
    	
    	

    re: -.1
    
    If I understand Mike correctly, he is not referring to reincarnation
    as this is contrary to Mormon doctrine.  What say, Mike?
    
    Steve

Steve mentioned that reincarnation is not compatible with Mormon doctrine.
This can be seen if one reads notes 4.50 through 4.68.

In those replies I traced our existence as unique individuals.  Prior to being
born in mortality, we lived in Heaven as spirit children of our Heavenly Father.
Even though we were spirits with no physical bodies, we were unique individuals,
some being male children and some female.

As we were born into mortality, we lost a remembrance of our previous life with
God (referred to as the "veil") so we would learn to live by faith while away
from His presence.  In this life we are the same unique individuals we were
there, the difference being that our spirits are now clothed with physical
bodies.

In the life to come, we will remain the same unique individuals and temporarily
lose our physical bodies until the resurrection.  After the resurrection, our
spirits are again clothed with physical bodies, but this time they are glorified
and physically perfect bodies.  Our final destiny via the judgment of God is to
dwell for the eternities in one of the many mansions of the Father's house.

We have always been unique individuals and will always be the same persons.
As we gaze into the starry sky at night and contemplate the many creations of
God, it is comforting to know that out of all his creations, each of us is
unique.  God is literally our Father and loves each of us.  We are unique but
not alone!

I am grateful for the knowledge I have of God's Plan of Salvation, because it
gives me purpose and meaning in my life and both short range and long range
goals.  I know that God lives and that I am a child of God.

Allen

    
    Yes,I am talking about reincarnation.I do know that this is contrary
    to Mormon doctrine.
    
     Even though i have been a member of the LDS church since 1981,i
    also have been a Catholic and a Baptist in this life.I have also
    been agnostic.
    
     My membership in the LDS church is a small part of my eternal
    progression,and it has given me valuable experience in my development
    as an individual soul.However,it is not all that is.There is so
    much more for us to learn and understand about our universe.I have
    progressed to a stage where i am broadening my awareness of what
    the worlds are like and how it works,not necessarily in a physical
    sense,but a spiritual one.As we develop we are blessed with the
    knowledge and understanding that we acquire by making wise choices,
    and come closer to God.
      By the guidance of the Holy Ghost over many lifetimes,and by allowing
    myself to be guided,i am at this point in my progression.
      We were created in pairs,Male and Female.We are either one or
    the other but not both.We each have a soul mate.I have met my soulmate
    in 10 lifetimes and am with her now.We will be together in the spirit
    world because we choose to be.
      I want to make it clear to anyone reading my notes,that,i am speaking
    as an individual,and that what i say cannot be taken as doctrine
    of the church i am currently a member of,since i have not narrowed
    myself to such a small segment of the cosmos as a whole.
      I do know that God exists,and that Jesus is his son.I also know
    that Joseph was one of his prophets,and,that he is a member of Gods
    council,which i believe i will be also.
      We must keep Gods commandments(the Ten).We must overcome
    Satan,because he exists and is getting many followers today.Satan
    is real,just as God is.
      We must work together to take care of our world and to help each
    other.
      Dont lose faith because of the weaknesses of men of great influence
    in religious circles,such as Jimmy Swaggart or Jim Bakker,or those
    like Oral Roberts,who sell God.They are weak like all of us if they
    allow themselves to be tempted and give in to it.Make your relationship
    with God a personal one,an individual one,for he knows each one
    of us,and loves us.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    A remarkable vision was given to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland temple on
    January 21, 1836 that pertains to this subject: 
    
         The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial
         kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out
         I cannot tell. 
         
         I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs
         of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of
         fire; 
         
         Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and
         the Son. 
         
         I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the
         appearance of being paved with gold. 
         
         I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and by mother; my
         brother Alvin, that has long since slept; 
         
         And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in
         that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the
         Lord had set his hand to gather Isreal the second time, and had
         not been baptized for the remission of sins. 
         
         Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died
         without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if
         they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial
         kingdom of God; 
         
         Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who
         would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of
         that kingdom; 
         
         For I the Lord, will judge all men according to their works,
         according to the desire of their hearts. 
         
         And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at
         the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of
         heaven. 
         
         D&C 137:1-10

    I rejoice that God is a just judge, and will judge all men according to
    their works and to the desires of their hearts. With those who have
    lost children, I rejoice that these children will receive the celestial
    glory. 
    
    In Christ,
    Rich
           

    Thanks for typing that in Rich, I was going to do it after I got
    done with finals this week.
    
    Would you people who want to talk about reincarnation mind moving to
    another Topic.  You just need to save your reply, and put it in
    a new note. Delete the one in here.  If you don't know how to do
    this the documentation for VAXNOTES will help. If you don't have or can't
    find the documentation I'm sure the moderator will help do it.
                            
    
          
    thanks
    

    I HAVE A CUSTOMER WHO IS A DEVOUT MORMON.  RECENTLY HIS FATHER WAS
    KILLED IN A CAR ACCIDENT AND I HAVE NOT HAD THE CHANCE TO TALK TO
    HIM SINCE THE ACCIDENT.  I RESPECT THIS CUSTOMER AND WOULD TO BETTER
    UNDERSTAND HIS BELIEFS REGARDING DEATH AND THE FUNERAL PROCESS.
    
    THANKS
    
    JOHN

    Hmmm ... other replies and notes will probably yield more detailed answers,
    but here's a quick synopsis.  Mormons feel that death is the separation
    of the spirit from the body and that eventually the spirit will
    be united with a body that will not die.  Death, like birth, is one of the
    phases of progression for every person.  After death, the spirit
    continues in another form of existance and progression of the
    individual continues.  Funerals are a way to provide some comfort for
    the living and reassurance that families can someday be reunited.  
    I'm sure a better response will be forthcoming ...
    
    Steve

John,

We believe that death is just a change in conditions.  Just as a person
can walk from one room to another through a door, so we "walk" from this
mortal life to the life after death by going through the door we call "death".

Just as in walking from one room to another we are the same person, so in
going through "death" we are still the same person, the only difference
being that we have left behind our mortal body and are "personages" of
spirit.  We believe that spirits are "personages" (i.e. people without a
body) and have arms, legs, heads, etc.  

We believe that we can be families in the next life if we have had our
marriages performed in one of our Temples, and if we are obedient to God's
commandments (none of us are fully obedient, and He decides if we have done
the best we can).  Because of this belief in family life, we tend to think
of death as a temporary parting similar to one going on a long trip.  We
look forward to family reunions in the next life.

Mormon funerals are quite different from the few Protestant funerals that I
have attended, and Mormon funerals here in New England are different than
those I've attended in Utah.  Rather than being the stereotype of a somber
event, they are a form of a joyous family reunion since relatives frequently
come from afar.  This joyous feeling would probably seem strange to non-LDS,
but to us, the deceased is gone on a trip, and we look forward to seeing him
or again in the future.  In the mean-time we are glad to see friends and family
who have come to the funeral.

My brother-in-law was killed in a truck accident (Boy Scout trip) two days
after my wife and I were married.  He had been a witness to our marriage in
the Salt Lake Temple, and to me he was the "big brother" which I never had.
I missed him then and I miss him now, but not with the remorse that I have
seen among those not active in the Church.  Having hope of being together
as a family in the next life really does help.  Having a testimony of
Jesus Christ and of the hope of a resurrection and life in one of the
"many mansions" of God really does help.  Having brothers and sisters in
the Gospel who act as a support system really does help.

I hope that others will reply to this note and give their perspective.  

Allen

John,

If you would like to read the Mormon view of death and the life to come as
taught in the scriptures, take a look at notes 4.55 through 4.68.

Allen

I am standing upon the seashore.  A ship at my side spreads her white sails
to the morning breeze and starts for the blue ocean.  She is an object of beauty
and strength and I stand and watch her until at length she hangs like a speck
of white cloud just where the sea and sky come to mingle with each other.
Then someone at my side says: "There! She's gone!"

Gone where?  Gone from my sight, that is all.  She is just as large in mast
and hull and spar as she was when she left my side, and just as able to bear
her load of living weight to the place of destination.  Her diminished size
is in me, not in her; and just at the moment when someone at my side says:
"There! She's gone!" there are other eyes watching her coming and other
voices ready to take up the glad shout, "Here she comes!"--and such is dying.

-- author Unknown (Golden Nuggets of Thought, p. 39)

    This is very difficult for me to write but here goes.
    
    My grandson died in a fire on December 7, 1987.  He was only three
    years old.  He was so innocent and it was very difficult for me
    to accept the fact that he was gone.
    
    This tragedy was only a short two months after my husband and my
    reactivation into the church (after years of inactivity) and our 
    sealing together for all time and eternity in the temple.  Our hearts 
    were filled with a mixture of joy and sadness.  
    
    During the time of my greatest pain, I know that my Heavenly Father 
    was there by my side to comfort me.  Had it not been for the light of 
    his great love, I would not have been able to understand nor accept it 
    as his will.  I believe that Little Rich's mission here on earth was 
    complete and that my Heavenly Father has other great needs for him in 
    heaven.  I also believe that I will be reunited with him again as
    a family as promised in my Heavenly Father's plan of salvation.
    
    Since Little Rich's death, my family has met many great and seemingly
    insurmountable obstacles.  Sometimes we feel down, but when I reach
    my lowest moments, that is when I feel Him the closest.  He loves
    me and He loves us all.  It would be very difficult for me to believe
    that He would have it any other way.
    
    Hope this note helps someone else.
    
    
    I know that Little Rich is with my Heavenly Father right now.  In
    his short life, he brought such love and meaning to our lives. 
     

In note 343 it was suggested that we use this note for 
talking about our feelings about death.  There were a
couple of very touching replies in 343 about the death
of a child. I will try to help change the tone of this
note so that it will move from the intellectual plane to 
the feelings plane. I choose to do it for two reasons,
one because it was suggested by the moderator and two
because I believe that this is an area where we mormons
tend to be different from the world and sharing our feelings
here can be beneficial to those who are LDS or not.

There are several deaths in my life I could talk about
but I will constrain myself to two plus another related
experience.

First my father.  My parents were divorced when I was 15
years old. Both were active in the church and both remained 
so. However my father got a very lonely existence. since
my mother and we children moved hundreds of miles away and 
there was virtually no contact after that. After I was married
I began to see and relate to my father then finally after
thirteen years of loneliness where I am sure that life
must have seemed not worth living, he finally re-married
a lovely lady in the temple. These two were just the
greatest lovebirds. My joy for him was so incredible.
Then just 5 weeks later, he had a heart attack at work 
and died instantly. So again his family and friends were
gathered only for a different reason. Did we feel sad?
I can't find words to describe the sadness. even now 17
years later, tears come to my eyes as I write this, and
I feel a deep feeling in my heart. But it is different
I think than you might suppose. I feel sad for the years
that I have not been able to spend with him. I feel sad
for the many things he might have done and the many joys
that he might have had with his new wife. I feel sad that 
my own children had not yet arrived so they have never
been able to know him (yet). The difference is in that
word yet. I sincerely believe that all of those things
are and will happen but just in a different context. That
wife (though she had been married before and has some very
good kids from that marriage, and even though she has
married since and is happy and comfortable with her
new husband, is still in her heart (I can tell when I 
talk to her in private) my father's bride. You see her
first husband never chose to join the LDS church and 
accept the concepts of eternal families. Her current
husband married her "for time only" knowing that she
was sealed to my father and similarly this current
husband is sealed to his first wife. Therefore there
is a real, tangible eternal relationship in her heart
that she (and the rest of us) know she will have an
eternity with this husband she loves even though the time
here was so short. I know he will have the happines that
he deserves and it makes me glad. Yes he is dead, and yes
I feel sad, but it is not permanent and that makes it 
very different.

A second death is of a cousin of mine. She died of Lukemia
while in her late thirties or early fourties. She still 
has several children at home. It certainly had teh marks
of what we might all call a tragedy. Unfortunately I was
not able to attend the funeral since at that time I lived
on the other side of this great continent, but others who
were there have recounted some of the experience of that
funeral to me. It was an occasion of sadness to be sure,
but it was marked by very strong feelings of assurance that
it was OK and all in God's plan. There were even several
present that saw the spirit of my cousin at her funeral.
I saw her husband the other day and as we chatted I could 
tell there was still a lot of sadness in his heart, but
it is different, it is tempered by the assurance that this
is a temporary situation and that in the future the whole
family will be back together again.

The third situation is one that my good friend Paul Rondina
mentioned in his reply in note 348 on Adoption. My wife
and I had the opportunity to adopt a third child, one that 
was of mixed negro-white ancestry. She was in our home
for about 8 months, I immediatly grew close to her and
accepted her like one of our own, but this never took
place in my wife's heart. finally I had to decide not
to finalize the adoption and to let the agency place her
with another family (they had no trouble doing it, she
was placed immediatly) But here was one that I loved as
my own child, that would no longer be my child. In the 
separation from her, my sense of loss was so much deeper.
All that I can hope for is that she can be my friend in
the future worlds, but she is someone else's child. I
believe that my feelings for her are somewhat like a
"birth mother" who places a child for adoption, there is
this big empty place and it does not get filled. It has
been 7 years, it still hurts a lot. Sure I have recovered
in a lot of ways, I can look at a picture of her without
sinking into despair, but it hurts... a LOT. There are
tears in my eyes as I write this and the feeling in my
heart hurts much more than that for my father. 


Death is a very complex issue and the feelings around it
are very heard to talk about. But the LDS philosophy does
something the value of which you can't appreciate untill
you actually experience it buth ways. IT GIVES HOPE. Not
just hope to see them again, but hope and faith in a re-
newed family relationship in a better world. an ETERNAL
family relationship.

My brothers and sisters, I bear you my testimony that that
hope and belief is truly priceless. A gift from God that
really makes it better. If you don't know and feel that
now in your hearts, please search ponder and pray about
it so you too can have that gift.

Your brother,

Len

	Do not stand at my grave
	and weep,
	I am not there, I do not sleep,

	I am a thousand wings that blow,
	I am the diamond glint on snow,

	I am the sunlight on ripened grain,
	I am the gentle autumn rain,

	When you wake in the morning hush,
	I am the swift, uplifting rush
	of quite birds in circling flight,
	I am the soft starlight at night,

	Do not stand at my grave
	and weep,
	I am not there, I do not sleep,

			Anonymous from
		    Northwest Indian News

	For all parents 

	I'll lend you for a little time, a child of mine, He said.
	For you to love while he lives, and mourn when he is dead.

	It may be six or seven years, or twenty-two or three.
	But will you, till I call him back, take care of him for me?

	He'll bring his charms to gladden you, and shall his stay be brief,
	You'll have his lovely memories as solace for your grief.

	I cannot promise he will stay, since all from earth return,
	But there are lessons taught down there I want this child to learn.

	I've looked the wide world over in my search for teachers true,
	And from the throngs that crowd life's lanes, I have selected you.

	Now will you give him all your love, nor think the labor vain,
	Nor hate me when I come to call, to take him back again?

	I fancied that I heard them say, Dear Lord, Thy will be done.
	For all the joy Thy child shall bring, the risk of grief we'll run.

	We'll shelter him with tenderness, we'll love him while we may;
	And for the happiness we've known will ever grateful stay.

	But shall the angles call for him much sooner than we planned,
	We'll brave the bitter grief that comes, and try to understand.


						Edgar A. Guest

In other news:

    President Bishop was killed in a motorcycle accident on Sunday in Boston.

    Of the Cape Cod, MA stake (?)

    Sister Bishop is hospitalized with broken bones.

    Some of know Don Bishop (Marlboro Ward), his dad.

Allen: If this doesn't belong here (I can't see why not) then feel free to
hid it or delete or move it.