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Well, my review is pretty general, so I'll post it here. At the onset,
I wish to express that Leza does attempt to be honest and logical.
I don't feel there is any intentional oversight. Leza is not the first
to try to prove Mormonism wrong, if that is what is being attempted.
The purpose of my response is no more than to help indicate that an answer
exists to all claims that the Church is not the Lord's or that Joseph
Smith was not a prophet of the Lord. One does not and is not expected
to gain testimony based on there being a valid argument alone. Such
can only be done properly with the aid of personal revelation, in my opinion.
>I am not trying to "attack" in any way. I understand that some readers
>feel that I am bashing their religion. That's not the case at all. If the
>Mormon religion is correct - it will stand to any test.
Any fair test, of course. You know the old idiom that if God can do all things,
can He create a rock so big that he is unable to lift it ...
>But you must understand: when Joseph stated that God told him all
>Christian churches were an abomination to him, that was a major slap to the
>face to the churches of that day. I have not found a retraction to that
>statement. Therefore, it must still hold true. Should I not, then, defend
>my faith? If I am in error then I should turn around. Otherwise, I stand
>secure in my faith.
I would not expect you to necessarily be shaken in your faith if you
determined that logically you were in error or that Mormons were not in error.
As I've discussed elsewhere, logic alone is not a necessary and sufficient
condition for faith. But, one can expect that your religion as well as
Mormonism will be able to stand the test of logic. I feel assured that
eventually you should be able to find logic that will permit you to believe as
your heart dictates if you determine your logic is currently in error.
>Joseph Smith stated:
>
>"I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has been
>able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large
>majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor
>Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The
>followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-Day Saints never ran
>away from me yet." (History of Church V6, pp 408-409, 1844) [This is not
>my example of a humble man. No prophet of God, that I know of, ever set
>himself above God as Joseph has done here.]
Joseph Smith is not setting himself above God, in my opinion. As indicated in
History of the Church, Joseph Smith started this sermon by reading from
2 Cor. 11. In this chapter, Paul says that he speaks foolishly in that he is
glorying in his tribulations. Basically, Paul is letting off steam, cognizant
of his faults. Joseph Smith did the same. He was letting off steam.
His dissertation closely parallels that of Paul. After reading 2 Cor. 11, he
began the dissertation with:
I, like Paul, have been in perils and oftener than anyone in
this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than
Paul did ... The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I
glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were
not persecuted. If oppression will make me a wise man, much
more a fool.
It seems clear to me that in this sermon, Joseph indicates he is speaking as a
man, just as Paul spoke as a man, or as a fool. I don't come away with the
impression that Joseph Smith sets himself above God, especially considering
his other writings. If he did not receive revelations and desired to set
himself above God, why did he find himself rebuked and called to repentance
so often? (D & C 3, 5, 20, 24, 64, 90, 93, 124, 132:56-60)
>The question isn't was there a vision. The question is: why are there
>discrepancies in the vision at all? Why are they different?
History of the Church V1:1 and Joseph Smith - History:1 indicate that Joseph
Smith generated the account in 1838 to set the record(s) straight. As to
other errors, History of the Church V1:V indicates that some errors were
introduced due to unfaithfulness on the part of some of those responsible
for keeping the records. I only mention this to indicate that it was
known that some records kept had been changed or incorrect and efforts
were made to correct them, including the 1838 account. I don't have a
copy of J of D or the 1833 POGP handy, so I can't check these out.
>The Mormon Church the Only Church?
>
>With one statement Joseph Smith pronounced everybody wrong, all Christian
>theology an abomination, and all professing Christians corrupt. But how
>can this be? Jesus stated in Matt. 16:18 "the gates of hell" would not
>prevail against it [His church]. Also, Jesus said in Matt. 28:20: "Lo, I
>am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
We have a difference of interpretation on Matthew 16:17-18. Mormons interpret
that Christ is referring to revelation (the rock upon which the Church is
built), not to His Church.
>The Bible does not teach that the church has to be restored. In 2nd Thess.
>2 (all of it) it mentions that for that day shall not come, except there
>come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of
>perdition; if you go on to read, Jesus will keep those to the end who
>stand firm in his truth. The son of perdition has not been revealed, so
>how can the church be gone?
'That day' (2:3) is interpreted by Mormons as referring to the Second Coming
of the Lord. The falling away first refers to the Apostacy from His Church.
The Apostacy has occurred. The Second Coming and revealing of the son of
perdition have not yet occurred. As to Biblical scriptures referring to the
Restoration, the Mormons tend to use these from the New testament:
Matt. 7:11
Matt 24:14
Mark 9:12
Acts 3:21
Rom. 11:25
Eph. 1:10
Rev 11:3
Rev. 14:6
There are also other references from the Old Testament and the other Standard
Works, if you have interest.
Well, it's late and the other topics are being addressed by others.
Steve
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| >"God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel and He
>will make me be god to you in His stead and the Elders to be mouth for me;
>and if you don't like it, you must lump it. (Joseph Smith, History of the
>Church 6:319-20)
Taken out of context, that statement does sound like Joseph is trying to
replace God in the lives of the Saints. Let's take a closer look in the
History of the Church.
President Joseph Smith said:--It is just as impossible, for me to continue
the subject of yesterday as to raise the dead. My lungs are worn out.
There is a time to all things, and I must wait. I will give it up, and
leave the time to those who can make you hear, and I will continue the
subject of my discourse some other time....I shall leave my brethren to
enlarge on this subject [of his discourse]: it is my duty to teach the
doctrine. I would teach it more fully--the spirit is willing but the
flesh is weak. God is not willing to let me gratify you; but I must
teach the Elders, and they should teach you. God made Aaron to be the
mouth piece for the children of Israel,* and He will make me be god to
you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't
like it, you must lump it. I have been giving Elder Adams instruction
in some principles to speak to you, and if he makes a mistake, I will
get up and correct him....
* The scripture alluded to in the text is as follows:--Moses pleaded to be
excused from the appointment to deliver Israel on the plea that he was
not eloquent; whereupon the Lord said: "Is not Aaron the Levite thy
brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh
forth to meet thee; and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth; * * * And he
shall be thy spokesman unto the people; * * * * he shall be to thee
instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God"
(Exodus iv:14-16)
Somewhat later this passage occurs: "And the Lord said unto Moses, See,
I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy
prophet" (Exodus vii:1.)
Thus, we see that because of a physical problem with his lungs, Joseph was
not able to speak very long (no PA systems in those days), and he prepared
some of the Elders to speak in his place, as Aaron assisted Moses, and if the
people did not like the change of speakers, "you must lump it".
In saying he would be a god to the people, Joseph was comparing himself with
Moses. Just as Moses used a spokesman, so would Joseph. Just as Moses was
a god [i.e. a representative of God] to Pharaoh, so would Joseph be to the
Saints.
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| >"I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has been
>able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large
>majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor
>Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The
>followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-Day Saints never ran
>away from me yet." (History of Church V6, pp 408-409, 1844) [This is not
>my example of a humble man. No prophet of God, that I know of, ever set
>himself above God as Joseph has done here.]
To further elaborate on what Steve said, Joseph was specifically talking about
the persecution the Saints were having in Nauvoo and the attempts of the mobs,
which for the most part were led by apostate Mormons, to destroy the Church.
Joseph is saying that he will not let them succeed.
If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the
top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them.
When the facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last.
My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke
under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly
over them. (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408)
When he referred to "Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it", he
was referring to the Great Apostasy that overtook the Christian church.
When he said that "I boast that no man ever did such a work as I", he was
saying that the mobbers would not succeed in destroying the Restored
church. Rather than putting himself above God, Joseph was expressing his
determination to defeat the persecution and keep the Church together.
Allen
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| >and since Joseph fell under the dispensation of the
>New Testament this should have applied to him as well.
We believe, Leza, that a new dispensation, that of the Fulness of Times, was
given from God when the Church was restored. As part of this dispensation
God, Christ, Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elijah, and
others appeared to Joseph Smith. New scripture to join with the Bible in
testifying of Christ was given, and living prophets exist today.
Allen
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