Conference tecrus::mormonism

    From the looks of your first entries, I would say that we can all
    look forward to a good, rational, calm, logical discussion of the
    points you raise. I'm certainly looking forward to it. It is obvious
    that you have spent a good deal of time and effort to put your points
    across in a clear, plain fashion, and that will help the ensuing
    discussion.
    
    One thing though: you draw a number of distinctions between Mormon
    doctrine and the doctrines espoused by 'traditional' forms of
    Christianity. You would be correct, then, to say that Mormons do not
    fall into the category of 'traditional' Christians. It is not correct,
    however, to leave out the 'traditional' and say that we do not fall
    into the category of 'Christian.' Mormons *are* Christians indeed, and
    'traditional' denominations do not have a lock on the title
    'Christian.' 
    
    For let us not forget that there are many things on which we *do*
    agree. We can agree that God lives, that He is perfect, all-wise,
    all-powerful, merciful, kind, and just. We can agree that Jesus is the
    Christ, the living Son of our Father in Heaven, whose atoning sacrifice
    makes it possible for us to be saved. And we can agree that there is a
    Holy Spirit who has great power, and can witness unto all people the
    truth of all things. 
    
    On that basis, let's proceed.
    
    With best regards,
    /kevin

    You are right.  To say that Mormons aren't Christians even though
    they don't follow the traditional pattern is too presumptious. 
    I had actually intended to reword that section but I
    got over anxious and hit CTRL Z before I remembered to correct it.
    
    I appreciate your comments and am looking forward to reading the
    other responses.
    
    Leza

    Would you please define what you mean by traditional, because my
    definition would have your church and many others dropping of the
    list also.             
                
    Please be aware that churches are organizational entities and the
    people within are not condemned or lost.
                
    I am having trouble with your section on salvation.  It seems to
    be giving some wrong messages by the absence of some critical
    information.  For instance, what happens to those with no chance
    to find or hear the gospel in this life.  We do not believe that
    they are held accountable for where or when they were born and have
    the same opportunity as everyone.
                                     
    I have often wondered why people have such a hard time with eternal
    progression of knowledge.  In college I had a running argument with
    my philosophy instructor on this and never had understood why people
    think progression stops with death.  Maybe you can explain that
    in your report.                  
                                     
    BTW, I have read your notes in anticipation to this report and have
    wondered why you are doing it.  I think after reading your intro
    and the first installment that you are really not convinced of the
    choice you made and are looking for support/conviction by doing
    this.  It is a behavior that is not uncommon and you should acknowledge
    it to yourself and be comfortable with it.  It may allow you to
    get rid of excess baggage and make a choice one way or the other.
                                       
    Also in your intro you asked a question on which spirit it was that
    told you the LDS church was untrue.  Many things come from our own
    mind if we want it to strong enough.  So maybe the spirit was yours,
    for reasons that only you may or may not know.  I had a similar
    experience, but recognized that I was not comfortable with the
    great amount of change that would have to take place in my life.
    I just wonder if you may not have experienced the same thing.
                                     
    You know, saying that it's different doesn't prove anything.  If
    it was the same there wouldn't be much need, would there?  Why are
    you really writing this report.  And you should be careful, after
    all Bro. Young bought a BOM to disprove it and look what happened
    to him.  The good people in Peterborough NH area lost a good minister and
    the Church got a great leader.                 
                                     

    Dear Leza:
    
    I am very curious about your receiving an answer to your prayers
    that Mormonism is false.  After years and years of studying and
    searching, I bumped into Mormonism.  I studied it, prayed about
    it and received an answer to my prayers that it was indeed true.
    
    This situation has begun to fascinate me more and more.  How can
    2 persons pray and get different answers, yet both claiming to have
    been inspired by the Holy Ghost?  I do not understand this.  Inevitably
    some might say that one of us has been influenced by Satan (who
    some say can also answer prayers).  Yet, I am as sure of the source
    of my answers as you are.  I made a long entry about this in the
    topic Many Churches.  I suggest you look there for my discussion
    of this topic, if you care to.
    
    I hope those reading your report will look at other entries for
    the Mormon explanation and scriptural evidences for our belief system.
    Your report seems a bit unfair in calling Latter Day Saints
    un-Christian.
    
    To me a Christian is:
    
    1.Someone who acknowledges Jesus as Messiah
    2.Invites him into his life
    3.Prays and repents in the name of Jesus
    4.Accepts Jesus' sacrifice and atonement
    
     Latter Dayrmons) profess these, 4 statements.
    
    How do you define a ChrPlease list your qualifiers for what does
    or does not make a Christian.
    
    Thanks,

    In response to 61.3:
    
    First, I do not know what happens to those with no chance of hearing
    the Mormon gospel in this life.  I could find no Mormon statements
    to this.  I wondered the same thing.  I would assume that it would
    fall under Telestial because they did not receive the gospel or
    the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world.
    
    As far as the eternal progression question, yes I will cover it
    in a future note in 38.
    
    Why am I doing this report?  In all honesty, because the Lord has
    told me to.  Why has He told me to?  I humbly request that you let
    me explain that in the closing comment of the report in 38.  My
    goal at this time is to only explain why traditional Christians
    don't believe Mormonism is a Christian religion.
    
    I also know what spirit I have indwelling in me.  And it is not
    Satan because light and dark cannot mix and according to the Book
    of Mormon Moroni 7:16  the Spirit of Christ is given to every
    man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you
    the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and
    to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and
    gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it
    is of God.           
    
    I inviteth to do good and I have many times witnessed to people
    that they need Christ.  Satan would not do this.  So therefore,
    I know from whence my Spirit came.  Again, in a later section of
    the report, I will explain why my spirit told me to not go into
    Mormonism.
    
    In Response to 61.4
    
    Again, I will explain why my answer to pray was different from yours
    in a later report.
    
    As I stated in 61.2 I was too presumptious in saying Mormons are
    un-Christian.  But let me explain what I consider to be a traditional
    Christian Church:
    
    A Church that believes in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost being One
    God with three distinct personalities (not three different Gods
    with one purpose as in Mormon beliefs).  Also they are a people
    who believe that God was and has been through out all eternity,
    that he did not progress from a man (which from the statement by
    Joseph in my note, he said he would refute that idea).  That we
    must believe in Jesus Christ to go to heaven.  If we don't we go
    to Hell.  They do not believe in levels of heaven and there is no
    other choice.  In addition they believe that there is only one God
    - period - they do not become Gods themselves (which is the hope
    of the Mormon - to obtain Celestial glory and to become a God
    themselves).
    
    Yes, Mormons do believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah, they do accept
    his sacrifice and atonement.  Where the Christian usually has problems
    is which Jesus are you worshipping?  Again, this report is only
    to clarify (from my own personal standpoint) why Christians feel
    the way they do.  Each section will go into a lot more depth then
    I can go into here.
    
    And you must be honest as a Mormon.  And this is what was told to
    me by a Mormon friend (right or wrong I do not know but this is
    what I was told)  that Christians have been taught false doctrines
    and lies and that they are going to go to hell if they do not accept
    the Mormon doctrine.  That they are the TRUE church.  This is
    frightening to say the least.  If I am wrong, then I better turn
    around because I want to go to heaven.  The search that I made has
    resulted in this report.  I will let the reader decide.
    
    Hope this clears things up.
    
    Leza
    

    Greetings...
    
    I have just found this conference on Mormonism and was browsing
    through it.  I bacame interested in your report and decided to read
    all the replies as well.  I hesitate to make any comments because
    I usually prefer to sit back and read what everyone else is saying
    ... and sometimes get a good chuckle,  but I must say your topic
    has got me interested. 
    
    I only wish to say one thing though.   You mention in note 61.6 that 
    you do not know what happens to those with no chance of hearing the
    Mormon gospel in this life.  I would rephrase that question.  What
    happens to those with no opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus
    Christ in this life?  If you have done your homework as thouroughly
    as you claim, you would know that everyone will have the opportunity
    to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether it be in this life or
    in the next.  This is a very basic principle of the LDS church and
    is not difficult to discover.  There are various reference to this,
    but allas I have none with me. You could refer to the Doctrine of
    Covenants, one of the last sections dealing with the vision of the
    Celestial Kingdom.
    
    Good Luck on your research...
    
    Don
    

    To Lezas in 61.6
    
    You say Latter DAy Saints do not worship the same Jesus as Christians.
     How many Jesus' are there?  I worship the New Testament Jesus,
    as do my fellow Saints.
    
    Please be precise in defining why LDS are not Christians.  YOu say
    it is because we have a different view of the after life.  So do
    Catholics with Limbo and Purgatory, etc.  You say it is because
    we have a Godhead with 3 separate beings, rather than a Trinity.
    That is a matter of interpretation.  The Church of Rome has practically
    added Mary (plus other Saints) to the Godhead, yet you do not say 
    they are un-Christian. I could go on, but that is enough for now.
    
    Please answer this:
    
    How do you know when you have met a Christian?  What are the tell tale
    signs?
    
    I still do not understand why you consider Mormons un-Christian.
                            
    
    

    Leza,
    I was not implying that the spirit you witnessed was Satan, and I'm
    sorry if I did not clarify this.  I think people are quick to blame
    Satan for the workings of their own mind and slow to change their
    own spirit.  And that is what I was implying for you, that it was
    you and nothing else that told you that the LDS Church was not true.
     And it is you, and not the Lord, who determined that this report
    needs to be written.  You have only one spirit to overcome, Leza,
    and that is the spirit of the natural man.  It's a mistake to use
    either Satan as a scapegoat or crutch for ones own thoughts and actions.
                                          
    So tell us, what is traditional, how did the original followers
    of Christ believe and what did they believe.  Not what churches
    today think of as traditional. 
                                   
    BTW, I do not write this in anger or am not annoyed by your report,
    in fact being interested in behavior, I like to see these things
    since they are just a goldmine and give classic examples of behavior.
    I think there is no better zealot than one converted 180 degrees
    and the behavior they exhibit is interesting to say the least.  I
    always ask myself when I read or hear of people writing about the
    Church after they have left why they are doing it.  Most of the
    time between the lines one can see the hate and resentment there.
    Although I'm sure some do it for money.  And then there's those
    that do it to convince themselves that they made the right choice.
    I think you fell victim to the former people and are one of the latter.
    It will be interesting to see if there is any change in you as you
    really begin to study things out and not just rely on anti-mormon
    literature as a basis for your choice.
                                          
    

    
    
    Allen,
    
    you are passing judgement on Leza and you don't even know her. 
    That is not your roll.  Christ Himself said so. One who does not
    judge others *is* one of the signs of a good Christian.
    

    
    Could I just interject here ? As far as my experience goes, the
    theory that *everyone* gets a chance to hear the gospel is not limited
    to the Mormon Church. 
    
    Paul V

    
< Note 61.10 by ATLAST::MEDVID "Our Bog is Dood" >


    
    
    Allen,
    
    you are passing judgement on Leza and you don't even know her. 
    That is not your roll.  Christ Himself said so. One who does not
    judge others *is* one of the signs of a good Christian.
    

>< Note 61.10 by ATLAST::MEDVID "Our Bog is Dood" >
>
>
>    
>    
>    Allen,
>    
>    you are passing judgement on Leza and you don't even know her. 
>    That is not your roll.  Christ Himself said so. One who does not
>    judge others *is* one of the signs of a good Christian.
>    
>
    
    Sorry about the cofusion with names there.  I was addressing the
    author of note 61.9, Rich Allen, and not the moderator, Allen Leigh.
    Regardless, the point still stands.
    
    	--daniel
    
    

    re: .13
    
    Hi Drew,
    
    I think you meant to put this in topic 63, no?
    
    This topic is for replies to LEZAS note 38.2, while 63 is for replies
    to topic 2 introductions.
    
    Rich

    Thanks for the memos to date - and by the way, I do not take any
    offense in any way to the comments made (in regards to judging me).
    
    As I mentioned to another person in a personal memo, you all
    may be surprised to know where my information comes from.  95% comes
    from actual Mormon literature and documents.  The other 5% comes
    from testimonies of ex-Mormons and affidavids written by people
    who lived during the time Joseph Smith was in his ministry.  The
    so-called anti-Mormon literature I used was only for reference,
    that I may present this information in a logical manner.  If there
    was no documentation (which in some there was not) then I disregarded
    the statment.  An example of one document I have found is the letters
    from the sheriff who arrested and the judge who tried (and convicted)
    Joseph Smith for glass looking in 1826.
    
    I had promised to use only documented evidence and I plan to hold
    true to that.  However, you must not expect that I would have copies
    of every single thing because one:  I can't get to Salt Lake and
    two:  I cannot afford all the copying fees that go along with a
    detailed research project.  But, in many of the books I have, there are
    photocopies of the actual documents and I do consider those to be
    ok.  If ever I present evidence that someone feels is wrong, I will
    gladly either provide proof of my statment or retract it.
                                           
    My next report will come in a few days.  I appreciate your statements.
    
    Thanks, Leza
    

Re 38.1

Thanks, Leza, for describing the sources you are using in writing your report.


I thought I would comment on two of your sources which may not be familiar to
many of the persons following this discussion.


A Friendly Discussion, By Ben E. Rich.

    This was one of the missionary phamplets I used on my mission in 1956-58.
    It was taken from a larger booklet called "Mr. Durrant of Salt Lake City".
    It is written in story form and tells of the "experiences" of a Mormon
    missionary in the southern area of the USA.  A very enjoyable booklet.


To Moroni With Love, by Ed Decker.

    A company in Salt Lake City has published a booklet called "Answering
    an Ex-Mormon Critic" which discusses some of the points made by Decker.

       Mormon Miscellaneous, 8865 South 1300 East, Sandy, Utah 84092
       (801) 561-5103  (No. 5 in their series of booklets)


I'm not familiar with "Are Mormon Scriptures Reliable" by Harry L. Ropp
and "Mormonism" by Anthony Hoekema.


Re 61.19

>    But, in many of the books I have, there are
>    photocopies of the actual documents and I do consider those to be
>    ok.

I expect that you will do this anyway, but I thought I'd comment on it.  Unless
you have the original record or a photocopy which you have made from the
original record, you should document the source you actually used.  For example,
suppose you have a book which gives a photocopy of a page from the Journal of
Discourses.  You should either give your book as your source, or give the
JD as source and state as reproduced in your book.  If you give the JD as
source and don't mention your book, people will assume you had access to the
JD and extracted the information yourself.  If you state the photocopy was
published in your book then people will realize that you did not extract the
information and they will know who did the extraction.  This is important
because of CONTEXT.

It is no big deal to quote Mormon books as sources.  The important (very
important) thing is the context in which you give the quotations.  If you
extracted the information from the JD yourself then you are responsible and
accountable to use it in the context of the JD.  If, however, you use
photocopies which are published in other books, you are dependent upon the
context provided by the authors of the other books, the danger being that
these authors may not have provided photocopies of all pages of the sermon
that pertain to the topic being discussed and thus may not have kept the
original context intact.

Allen

    
    Allen,
    
    Harry L. Ropp's book "The Mormon Papers: Are the Mormon Scriptures
    Reliable" is available from Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship.
    
    When I was investigating the church both with the missionaries and
    on my own, I found evidence in this book to be the most damaging
    against the Mormons.  Granted there is a lot of anti-Mormon rhetoric
    which could be volleyed back and forth as to its validity, but there
    are certain sections so concrete, it convinced me that Mormonism
    was a religion created by a man and not by God.
    
    If anyone is interested, Inter-Varsity's address is:
    
    	IVCF
    	233 Langdon St.
    	Madison, WI  53703
    
    They were very prompt in sending me a copy of the book ($3.95).

       
    	--daniel
    
    
    

The March 1988 issue of the Ensign magazine has an article that compares
LDS beliefs with the teachings of the First century Christian church.  The
article responds to the reasons frequently given by persons who say LDS are
not Christian and shows from historical sources that LDS beliefs are much
closer to the beliefs of the First century Christians than are the beliefs
of the so-called "orthodox" or main-line Christians of today.

The article can be a useful resource during this discussion, and I'm hoping
someone will have time to type the article into a new note.

Allen

    I just finished reading the article in the March 88 Ensign, which
    compares LDS beliefs with 1st Century Christians.  Here is a brief
    summary:
    
    Principle                         When Practiced
    
    1. Trinity of Gods                 Began in 4th/5th century
       (3 in 1)
    
    2. Deification of Man              1-4th Centuries
    
    3. Baptisim of Dead                1-4th Centuries
    
    4. Bible as sole authority         This question has never been
                                       settled.
    
    5. Doctrine of Original Sin        Began in 4th/5th Centuries
    
    6. Salvation by Faith Alone        Began in 4th/5th centuries
    
    
    Note: Augustine seems to be the one person who has had the most
    impact on Christian doctrines.
    
    If anyone would like a full copy of the article, please send me
    your mailstop and I will send you a copy. There are books I can
    recommend on this topic also.
    
    The bottom line:  LDS Beliefs are closer to 1st Century Christianity
    Doctrines and practices than are current  orthodox Chrisitan dogmas
    which seem to have taken shape around the 4th and 5th centuries.
    
     

    I would like a copy of the article.  My mail stop is:
    
    Leza Schimelpfenig
    VRO3-3/W1
    
    Thanks!

(This is a replacement for 61.5)

Hi Leza,

First, I want to thank you for presenting your material in a calm, rational
way.  I hope that all participants in this discussion do likewise.

You have defined five categories of LDS beliefs that you plan to discuss
with your premise that those beliefs are not Biblical.  In contrast to
your premise, I have presented in Note 4, a very detailed explanation of LDS
beliefs with the premise that LDS beliefs are Biblical.  Thus, it seems that
persons pursuing this discussion should study and compare my Note 4 with your
Note 38.

In order to help people compare the two notes, I am presenting in this reply
a correlation of the replies to Note 4 with the categories of LDS beliefs
which you gave in 38.2.

Two replies to Note 4 which are general and serve as a foundation to all
the replies to that note are

        4.6   The Bible as a Source of Truth
        4.7   Answers to Prayer


1.  JOSEPH'S FIRST VISION

    4.1 through 4.5
    4.8 through 4.14
    4.22


2.  THE SCRIPTURES

    4.6 and 4.7
    4.15 through 4.21
      

3.  SALVATION

    4.23 through 4.68


4.  WE CAN BECOME GODS
5.  GOD WAS ONCE A MAN BUT PROGRESSED INTO GODHEAD

    4.1 through 4.7
    4.23 through 4.68