Conference tecrus::mormonism

Re < Note 35.0 by LABC::FRIEDMAN >

>    I understand the Mormons have a great interest in genealogy--tracing
>    family trees.  Is it true that this is so a person's ancestors can
>    be posthumously baptized and married?
    
I'll be discussing proxy baptisms and marriages later on in Note 4.  In the
meantime, other LDS may want to comment on them now.

The reason that I'm waiting until later on is so I can lay a foundation
in note 4.  I hope that you and everyone else are reading the replies to
note 4 so you will have this foundation of knowledge.

Allen

    
    "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies..." I Tim 1:4
    
    "But avoid foolish questions and genealogies... for they are
    unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9
    

>    "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies..." I Tim 1:4
>    
>    "But avoid foolish questions and genealogies... for they are
>    unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9

    Mormon doctrine on these passages is thus:
    
    [These references are] to exaggerated stories of the heroes and
    patriarchs of early Hebrew history, such stories being very popular at
    that time among the Jews. Paul's denunciation of "endless genealogy"
    was not of the scriptural and spiritually rewarding study of one's
    ancestry, but was a criticism of the self-deceptive practice of
    assuming that one can be saved by one's lineage. See Matt. 3:9 and Luke
    3:8, wherein John the Baptist rebuked those who put too much emphasis
    on ancestry and attempted to use lineage as a substitute for
    righteousness. The same theme is presented in the Book of Mormon. See
    1 Nephi 17:34-35.              -Bible dictionary p.678. 
    
    We have to be careful to understand the *context* of any statement made
    in Scripture, in order to really understand what the Lord wants to get
    across. Tossing random Scriptures on the table can be less than
    helpful, and in fact can confuse things. 
                                              
    Personally, it makes little sense to me that the Lord would enjoin us
    from genealogical activities. It seems important to know who we are and
    where we come from. 
    
    However, it makes all the sense in the world that the Lord would enjoin
    us from thinking that we can be saved because our ancestors were great
    people. That is an important lesson that can be understood only by
    understanding the context of the quoted Scriptures. 
    
    We can only be saved through Jesus Christ. 
    
    In Christ's love,
    /kevin

Is this research service available to non-LDS's?
    
lee

    All genealogical facilities of the Church are equally available to
    non-members as well as members. There is a huge library/research
    facility (now called the 'Family History Library') in Salt Lake City,
    but there are more than a thousand branches all over the world. Each
    branch is staffed with knowledgable people who would be more than
    delighted to assist anyone with their genealogical questions.  
    
    There are several branches in New England, but the one I am familiar
    with is the one in Nashua NH. The address is 110 Concord Street, 
    and the phone is 603-880-7371. The hours there are Wed 10-2 & 7-10,
    Thur 10-2 & 7-10 and Sat 9-5.
    
    There is a notes conference on Genealogy (isn't there one on
    everything?). Press KP7 or Select to add it to your notebook. Several
    of the contributors to that conference make regular use of the Church's
    facilities, and they are non-members. There are notes in that
    conference that spell out in detail what is available through the
    Church as well as other sources.

    Many thanks!
    
    lee

Kevin,

I agree with you that it is not always wise to just toss out scripture
passages, but sometimes it is a great way to get a response... :-)

If anyone wishes to read the context of those passages, it is not hard 
to come to the conclusion that delving into genealogies is an unprofitable 
practice, of no lasting value. There is no other mention of the practice of
genealogy in the New Testament. The ancestry of Christ is given to prove that
He is of the lineage of David, to fulfill prophecy and prove His qualification
as the Messiah. It isn't hard to conclude, then, that the study of genealogy 
is of no value to the Christian (other than as a hobby, I suppose).

>    Paul's denunciation of "endless genealogy" was not of the scriptural 
>    and spiritually rewarding study of one's ancestry...

Could you explain what you mean by "scriptural and spiritually rewarding"?

Thanks,

Ed

    

    
    If there are any noters out there with an Acorn BBC Micro (that
    limits it to we Brits methinks) I have a friend who wrote a
    genealogical package for said computer. He's really into genealogy
    (and he's not a Mormon either ! ;-) ) and is always updating and
    improving this package. If anyone wants details please Mail me.
    
    Sorry for the advert, but I thought some may be interested !
    
    Paul V

RE:< Note 35.7 by CASV01::PRESTON >

    >The ancestry of
    >Christ is given to prove that He is of the lineage of David, to fulfill
    >prophecy and prove His qualification as the Messiah. It isn't hard to
    >conclude, then, that the study of genealogy is of no value to the
    >Christian (other than as a hobby, I suppose). 

    This paragraph seems self-contradictory to me. The study of Christ's
    genealogy - at least - is of *great* value to the Christian for the
    very reason you name. 
    
    Your reply also ignores my contention that the context says that
    "depending on one's lineage for salvation" is unprofitable and useless
    (because we must depend on Christ for that), not that genealogy
    in-and-of-itself is unprofitable and useless. 
    
    >Could you explain what you mean by "scriptural and spiritually rewarding"?

    I mean that genealogical activity is *Scriptural* and it is also
    *spiritually rewarding*. 
    
    As for being Scriptural:
           
    In the Old Testament, the genealogies form an important part of the
    history of the antidiluvian patriarchs (Gen 5; 1 Chr 1:1-4); of Noah
    (Gen 10); of Shem (Gen 11:10-32; 1 Chr 1:17-28); of Ham (1 Chr 1:8-16),
    of Abraham's children by Keturah (Gen 25:1-4; 1 Chr 1:32); of Ishmael
    (Gen 25:12-16; 1 Chr 1:29-31); of Esau (Gen 36; 1 Chr 1:35-54); of
    Jacob (Gen 46; Ex 6:14-25; Num 26; 1 Chr 2:2); and various others (1
    Chr 3-9; Ezra 2:62; Neh 7:64). 
                                               
    In the New Testament, Jesus' genealogy is given *twice*: once in
    Matt 1:1-17 *descending* from Abraham to Jesus, and in Luke 3:23-28
    *ascending* from Jesus to Adam and to God. 
    
    Whatever else genealogies are, they are very Scriptural.
    
    They are also spiritually rewarding. Aside from the zillions of stories
    that a lot of Latter-day Saints could tell you of the spiritual rewards
    experienced through genealogical activity, one very concrete example I
    can give is the value in training children to appreciate family
    heritage and relationships. Writing regularly or visiting living
    ancestors with the object of passing on family traditions and heritage
    helps to make family relationships more rewarding and, yes, spiritual. 
    
    >I agree with you that it is not always wise to just toss out scripture
    >passages, but sometimes it is a great way to get a response... :-) 

    I have trouble with this kind of thinking. Do you want answers,
    or just a response?
    
    
    With Christ's love,
    /kevin
                            

re: 35.9

When I made my statements on the practice of genealogies, I was referring
not to the insight that can be gained by a knowledge of Christ's lineage,
rather, I was referring to the statements of Paul that seem to indicate that 
the practice of (presumably personal) genealogies is of no spiritual value.

>    Whatever else genealogies are, they are very Scriptural.

The Old Testament genealogies are useful due to their historical value in
tracing the progression of history and giving it reference points in time, and
in establishing the claims of the Levitical priesthood, since only Israelites
of the tribe of Levi and of the House of Aaron could be ordained as priests.
The continued practice of using genealogies to take some special spiritual
status upon oneself was a vain and foolish practice for Christians, however,
since Christ did away with the need for a special class of priests. 

I am fully aware that Mormons believe that they can take steps to effect 
the salvation of their ancestors via rituals performed for them in proxy. 
Apparently the dead have recourse if some interested party stands in their
place for certain ceremonies, rites, rituals, etc. This, of course, is a non-
Biblical teaching, although there is an attempt to support it by taking one
or two passages from the Bible out of context. It's basis lies primarily in 
later "revelations" by Mormon prophets.

>    They are also spiritually rewarding. Aside from the zillions of stories
>    that a lot of Latter-day Saints could tell you of the spiritual rewards
>    experienced through genealogical activity, one very concrete example I
>    can give is the value in training children to appreciate family
>    heritage and relationships. Writing regularly or visiting living
>    ancestors with the object of passing on family traditions and heritage
>    helps to make family relationships more rewarding and, yes, spiritual. 

I don't know what you mean by the first statement, but although the training
children to appreciate family heritage, traditions, etc, may enhance the
rewards of family relationships, it does not fall into the category of
spiritual, unless you wish to stretch the meaning of spiritual to include
the temporal and material.

>    >I agree with you that it is not always wise to just toss out scripture
>    >passages, but sometimes it is a great way to get a response... :-) 
>
>    I have trouble with this kind of thinking. Do you want answers,
>    or just a response?

Perhaps you haven't read many of my notes or you are injecting a bit of
sarcasm. I am certainly after more than a response, or I wouldn't spend so many
hours each week participating in this conference. The reason I may want to
provoke a response is to get more than just answers, because answers alone are
not sufficient. Everybody has answers. I want dialogue on these difficult
topics that goes beyond a rehashing of "beliefs". I want to hear the solid
basis for these beliefs, and frankly, it seems very hard to get to it. My
*impression* is that you (Mormons) know your beliefs well enough, but when you
are challenged on some of them - on a Biblical basis - your support is actually
not very good.

Frankly, I try to walk to line between agreeable inquirer and contentious
arguer. I have no time for foolish arguments and rat holes, but I have plenty
of time for challenging un-Biblical and un-Christian beliefs presented in the
guise of Christianity. Mormonism presents itself as Christian, and the clear 
implication is that it is somehow *more* "Christian" than what we know as
Biblical Christianity. I challenge that conclusion, and feel justified in 
taking a somewhat aggressive approach in doing so. If I step on a toe from time
to time, it is because the foot has willingly been placed out there, and if I
can get your attention by doing it, so much the better. My purpose is not to 
stomp toes, bash Mormons, or ridicule the sincerely held beliefs of others, but
this conference has been established as a place where challenging is 
appropriate, and I feel, beneficial for all concerned. If beliefs that carry
vast, eternal implications cannot stand up to a little vigorous challenging
then you are in a very insecure place indeed.

Ed

[The following article was published in 'The Essex Genealogist', Feb. 1987,
Vol. 7, No. 1.  I have been informed by someone who knows the author personally
that the author permits and encourages reprinting.]

			Why Mormons Do Genealogy

			By Helen S. Ullmann

Some years ago I was walking with a new acquaintance out to our plane leaving
Salt Lake City after a successful research trip when he said, a tiny bit
apologetically, 'Do you mind if I ask you a question about your church?'  He
was concerned about all this mysterious 'temple work' we members of The Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) do for our deceased
relatives.

Many people may feel the same curiosity and the same hesitation about asking,
so I would like to share a bit of information and, hopefully, dispel discomfort
and perhaps misinformation.

First of all, Mormons are always delighted to discuss your questions.  Most of
us are not so naive as to think that because you ask a question you are a prime
candidate for conversion.  However, we do welcome the chance to clarify
confusion.

Perhaps the most important thing to understand is that we believe that each
person is a free agent.  Nothing we do in our temples compels any person living
in the next world to accept the ordinances we perform in his or her behalf. 
And we do indeed believe that there is life after this life - an exciting and
fascinating prospect.

But the benefits of doing genealogy are not only for the dead.   We often
refer to the last verse of the Old Testament where Malachi says, 'And he shall
turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to
their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.'  I am sure all
genealogists would agree that searching out family history strengthens our
present family ties and sense of belonging to a tradition which we carry on.

Now as to that 'temple work.'  Few churches know what to make of I Corinthians
15:29 where Paul says, 'Else what shall they do which are baptized for the
dead, if the dead rise not at all?  Why are they then baptized for the dead?'
In our temples we are baptized 'by proxy,' i.e. on behalf of each individual by
name.  We then go through a two-hour course of instruction again on behalf of
that individual.  This is called the 'endowment.'  Finally, since marriage
performed by ordinary civil and church authority on earth is only 'til death do
you part,' we perform a 'sealing' of husband and wife and then child to
parents.  Jesus Christ said to his disciples in Matthew 16:19, 'And I will give
unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven ...'

The dates of these three ordinances appear on family group sheets which anyone
may obtain from the Church Genealogical Department archives as well as in the
International Genealogical Index (IGI).

Since this is only a simplified description and surely does not answer all
questions, please do not ever hesitate to ask a Mormon anything about his
church.  You can always find a polite way to say, 'Stop, that's enough,' when
we get carried away.

    

    
Here's something on genealogy that I received from the LDS mailing list
which might be interesting.


The following is a listing from a genealogy news group located at 
soc.roots on bitnet: (headers, etc removed)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To obtain a current listing of the GENEALOG files and their descriptions, just
send e-mail to either of the following addresses:

          Internet:  [email protected]
          BITNET:    LISTSERV@NDSUVM1
          UUCP:      ...!uunet!plains!vm1.nodak.edu!listserv

with the one-line message:

INDEX ROOTS-L

Include no other text, and leave the subject line blank.  The listserver
will return the complete listing of all files currently available.

HOW TO GET A FILE:

To get a file:      send mail to [email protected]

      and the following line as body of msg.

GET GENEALOG filetype
             ^^^^^^^^
      and you will get the filetype file via regular uucp mail...
                           ^^^^^^^^
GET GENEALOG NGSTIPS

      and you will get the NGSTIPS file via regular uucp mail...
                           ^^^^^^^
Note: The mail will be sent to you using the From: line of your request msg.

(or) from BITNET use:   tell listserv at ndsuvm1 get genealog [filetype]

(or) use anonymous FTP to vm1.nodak.edu (134.129.111.1)
and then CWD ROOTS-L then GET GENEALOG [filetype] to retrieve the file.

Command to GET File
Cmd Filename Filetype     Description
=======================  ====================================
GET GENEALOG HELPFILE    --> HELP and listing of GENEALOG FILES

File below uploaded after 3 Jan 1990

GET GENEALOG CSSERVER      CSNET FTP INFO-SERVER ACCESS
GET GENEALOG s-ahnums      Ahnentafel numbers and their implications  11303

GET GENEALOG s-blorel      Exploring Blood Relationships              17823

GET GENEALOG s-comsim      A Computer Simulation of the Ineradicable  16528
                           Uncertainty in Genealogical Research

GET GENEALOG s-daynum      Sorting out calendar complexities by       27750
                           mean of absolute day numbers

GET GENEALOG s-deslab      A Descendant Labelling Proposal            22572

GET GENEALOG s-gedcom      Concerns about GEDCOM                      11728

GET GENEALOG s-reltab      An Improved Relationship Table             12427

GET GENEALOG virgenr1      Virginia Genealogical Research (BBS)       14387


   Standard Disclaimer:  We are not associated with anyone. (PERIOD). (.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Best Regards,
    
    Frank

   Do you have a computer and modem?

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Well, if you answered YES to each question, I have something which you might
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          6)  DATABASE  -- Database of Tiny Tafels
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Brother's Keeper, Family Scrapbook, Census Research Tool, 
                Cemetery Research Database, etc)
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                family's, catalog information, basic related files, etc)

That's a taste of it!  Just GENEALOGY, and nothing but GENEALOGY and
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    re. .13
    
    In Rememberance has a new phone number (508) 562-5786.  
    Additionally, new features have been added:
    	TMS (Tafel Matching System)
    	QN-Genealogie (QuebecNet French Canadian Conference -- in French)
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    	GEDCOM Authorized Submission Collection Point
    
    

    Some questions about genealogical research have come up in the
    Womennotes file.  I posted the info about our Stake Family History
    Center (gen lib) and pointed folks to this file/string.
    
    I've received a couple of requests (Email) for additional info.  Are any 
    of you genealogists willing to let me send your node::name and/or DTN
    to these questioners?
    
    Thanks,
    aq
     

	RE: <<< Note 35.15 by ZEKE::QUAYLE >>>

>    Some questions about genealogical research have come up in the
>    Womennotes file.  I posted the info about our Stake Family History
>    Center (gen lib) and pointed folks to this file/string.
>    
>    I've received a couple of requests (Email) for additional info.  Are any 
>    of you genealogists willing to let me send your node::name and/or DTN
>    to these questioners?
    

	Why not point them to the DSSDEV::GENEALOGY notefile?     

    That's been done already, but two (so far) people have contacted me
    with specific questions and I'd like to put them in touch with a
    priesthood holder.
    
    aq
    

  Are you asking for a geneologist or a priesthood hold, or both? I've done a 
Little geneology and I am a priesthood holder. Maybe you could give us a little
more information about the questions you have for us. Are they about the church
and what our involvement with geneology? or, Are the questions more about 
geneology and how to do it. The geneology conference as specified in the 
previous note is very good with the latter questions about how and where 
to do geneology.

    Carter...
     DTN: 542-3640

    Carter, I've just re-read my entry .15, and am not sure how to explain
    better.  Non-members (as far as I know) have sent me mail asking for
    specific info about our Nashua, NH, Genealogical Library.  I regret to
    confess that I have not done much genealogy at all, and none in this
    Stake.  Both the people who have sent mail have give me permission to
    forward their mail to someone or ones more knowledgeable than I.  My
    note .15 in this string, I had hoped, would elicit positive
    response, i.e. someone(s) would say, "Sure, aq, send 'em to me."
    
    Let me repeat, they're not *my* questions, they are questions sent to
    me from readers of womennotes.  I have invited folks to see this string
    in this notesfile, and others have provided pointers to the genealogy
    notesfile.
    
    Thanks,
    aq
    

Well, aq, I wish I could tell you to send them to me. But, I'm on the west
coast and am a novice to geneology. My wife and I recently looked into
adoption at an adoption agency that specializes in hard-to-adopt kids. Most
of the children they work with are physically or mentally challenged. However,
they also deal with sibling groups(2 or more children). They also try to place
children with their own race, this includes indians. Many tribes require that
the adoptive parents must be of indian heritage and must be registered as such
with the tribe. My parents had done some research in the past and discovered
that through my Dad we are of indian ancestory. My wife and I fevorishly looked
into all aspects of how to register as an indian. We found out that the only
way to register was to prove our lineage back to an indian that registered at 
the time the US government was requiring all indians to register (1898-1907).
We spent many days at the geneology center. We found that some people had done
the research we were trying to do and had left their names and phone numbers
on the material that we researched. We contacted them and they filled in some
of the gaps. We ordered and reviewed some microfilm and microfische, etc. I'm
still quite a novice though. If I can help let me know.

       Carter...
       DTN 542-3640

Ps. we still haven't found an ancestor who registered. This is not to say that
they haven't, it just means we need to continue our search.

	RE: <<< Note 35.19 by ZEKE::QUAYLE >>>

	In response to your input Ann, it appears that no one in this 
	conference is able, or willing, to commit themselves as good 
	in genealogy.  That is why the pointer to the other conference.

	It would seem to me, though, that the Church should be the same
	in Nashua, NH, as here; therefore, I would suggest that there is
	someone in charge of the genealogical library.  We refer to it 
	as the Family History Center here, but it is the same thing - a
	genealogical library.  You might be able to forward the mail from
	the readers in womennotes to the person(s) in charge of your local
	center.   (Or, alternately, give them the name and number of the 
	local genealogical library in Nashua, NH.)

	Charles		

    Someone replied offline, and has responded to the folks' questions. 
    These are hard and busy times for all of us, so I don't take it to
    heart that there wasn't an overwhelming response!
    
    Carter, my prayers and good wishes to you and your wife.  Hope you'll
    keep us* posted as things progress.
    
    aq
    
    * well, keep them posted - looks like I won't be here much longer. 
      drat.  In some ways the worst is not yet knowing.  "Nevertheless, I
      know in whom I have trusted."