Conference tecrus::mormonism

    I read Matt. 5:48, and come to find out that Jesus was teaching the
    apostles and a crowd of Jews to love their enemies.  The idea in
    5:48 starts at 5:43.
    
    Note that Jesus is asking what good is it to only love those who 
    love you.  What good is it to be friends only with those who are
    friendly to you?  But you are to be perfect as your Father in heaven
    is perfect.  In other words the Father in heaven is perfect in the
    sense that he loves those who don't love him ect...
    
    As for being perfect in the perfect (no pun intended) sense of the
    word, no man can claim it.  Read 1st John 1:8-10.  If we claim we
    have no sin, we are lying and calling God a liar, because he says
    we are sinners.  As long as were alive, we are still men - right?
    So men/women are imperfect sinners till the day they die.
    
    
    

    
       It is true, I think, that mortal man cannot be prefect in this
    life.  We know that the only prefect one was Jesus himself.  Not
    until after we die, and are resurrected is there a chance for us
    to become perfect; for at that time we will have a perfected body.
    
    Jim

    

    re .2
>       It is true, I think, that mortal man cannot be prefect in this
                                                       ^^^^^^^
    I was a prefect at school ! :-) :-) ;-)
    
    Paul V da typo spotter 
    

    In response to the base note, I would like to add the following:
    
    Perfection is a tough issue for me - and the only reason it is so
    tough is because I make it tough.  You see, I'm a perfectionist
    in a lot of things, and when I do something that I don't feel is
    *perfect* in my eyes, I tend to get really down on myself.  I
    sometimes forget that I *am* human and therefore, I am imperfect.
    
    I've had to learn that becoming perfect is a process, a journey,
    a means - and not the end.  And the only way I can perfect myself
    is doing it ONE DAY AT A TIME.  I have set personal goals that I
    work on daily - goals that are helping me become the person I would
    really like to be.  
    
    I've had to learn to rely on the Spirit to help me attain my goals,
    and keep me on this road toward perfection.  I have a strong desire
    to do what God would have me do, so it's important that I keep the
    communication lines open so that His will will be revealed to me.
    
    I don't believe that I'll ever attain perfection in this lifetime
    - I can't because I'm human.   But it's comforting for me to know
    that one day I will be perfect, and the steps that I'm taking now
    to better myself will only benefit me in my eternal progression.
    
    Tamara
       

    Just a thought
    
    I believe it was Bruce R. Mconkie who noted that one can be perfect
    at his or her current level of understanding.  The example he gave
    was that of a college student.  There can be both perfect freshman
    and perfect seniors.  The freshman has not achieved the same level
    as the senior but both are perfect in their own spheres.
    
    Now, I don't think that there are too many people who are perfect
    in their spheres, however, it's nice to remember that it happens
    line upon line and not all at once.
    
    Mike

    
    Since, I don't have a bible in front of me, I can't be perfectly
    sure, but I seem to remember that in the book of Job.  God points
    to Job and comments on his being perfect.  Also, there are other
    men who were referenced in other books, who were call perfect.
    
    Am I missing something.

For the benefit of those who may not be very familar with Mormon doctrine
about perfection, note 4.50-4.69 discusses the plan of salvation leading
to perfection.

Allen

    Tom,
    
    Now you've sent me digging into my Topical Guide, where there's
    a large section on references regarding "Perfection, Perfect,
    Perfectly". 
         
    Here's a couple (ok - I couldn't stop at a couple) of interesting ones: 
         
    Noah was perfect:
    
         ...Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and
         Noah walked with God.  Gen 6:9
                     
    Abraham was commanded to be perfect:
    
         And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared
         to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before
         me, and be thou perfect.  Gen 17:1 (The verses following this
         are very interesting, too, for they describe the "everlasting
         covenant" between the Lord and Abraham).
    
    To be perfect is to keep God's commandments:
         
         Let your heart therefore be perfect with the Lord our God,
         to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at
         this day.  1 Kings 8:61
    
    Job was perfect:
         
         There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and
         that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God and
         eschewed evil.
         
         And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant
         Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and
         an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
         Job 1:1,8
    
    The Savior commanded us to be perfect:
         
         Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven
         is perfect.  Matt 5:48 (See also 3 Nephi 12:48).
    
    Paul tells the Corinthians to be perfect:
         
         Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort,
         be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace
         shall be with you.   2 Cor 13:11
                                             
    The church, organized with apostles and prophets and other leaders,
    is given to help perfect the saints, and to protect us against the
    'winds of doctrine':
    
         And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
         evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
         
         For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry,
         for the edifying of the body of Christ:
         
         Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge
         of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of
         the stature of the fullness of Christ:
         
         That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
         and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight
         of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to
         deceive;    Ephesians 4:11-14

    In Moroni's parting words on the last page of the Book of Mormon,
    he tells us how:
         
         Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny
         yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves
         of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind
         and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by
         his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace
         of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the
         power of God.
         
         And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ,
         and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by
         the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ,
         which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of
         your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.  Moroni 10:32-33
         
    May we be perfect in Christ!
                  
    Rich
    

    
    
    I understand from topic #55 "The Adam-god Theory", that heirs to
    god become a god (note 55.6).
    
    Does Mormonism teach that men are or become Gods?
                     
    Matt Jolma     

Hi Matt,

Mormonism teaches that those who become heirs of God and joint-heirs with
Christ partake of the divine nature as Peter said and do become gods.  Note 55.6
was a very brief summary of the following notes.

     4.50  Where Did We Come From?
     4.51  Jesus is the Firstborn
     4.52  War in Heaven
     4.53  Spirit Brothers and Sisters
     4.54  Latter-day Revelation: Where did we come from?
     4.55  Why are we Here?
     4.56  The Book of Mormon Teaches A Probationary State
     4.57  The Spirit World
     4.58  The Resurrection of Jesus Christ
     4.59  The Resurrection of Everyone
     4.60  The Judgment
     4.61  Many Mansions
     4.62  Latter-day Revelation: Salvation for the Dead
     4.63  Latter-day Revelation: The Three Degrees of Glory
     4.64  Latter-day Revelation: Outer Darkness
     4.65  Hell
     4.66  Latter-day Revelation: Eternal Marriage
     4.67  The Plan of Salvation
     4.68  Latter-day Revelation: The Glory of God

Allen

    
    Please provide the references in scripture which support the position
    that men do become gods.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Matt Jolma

Hi Matt,

In my previous reply I referred you to notes 4.50 through 4.68.  The
references you are requesting are given in those replies.  Those notes
involve a lot of reading, but in order to understand the LDS perspective
you really do need to read them all.

Allen

              If you don't do it excellently, don't do it at all.
                            -- Robert Rownsend

    "If you don't do it excellently, then don't do it all."  This statement
    leaves no room for learning, where one is expected to not do it
    "excellently".  And is not life a learning laboratory?
    
    					 - my thoughts     

Hi Paul,

Good comment!

To me, "If you don't do it excellently, then don't do it at all" means to avoid
mediocrity and do the best we can within the conditions under which we are
functioning.

"Excellence" is relative to our abilities at any given time.  It is also
relative to the needs of our environment, that is, we should avoid doing better
than the conditions warrant.

Allen

    Actually, I like the idea that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing
    poorly.  Don't remember where I heard that.  I know of lots of folks
    that have put off doing exciting things because they wanted to do them
    perfectly.  Leads to frustration, lack of learning, missed
    opportunities ...  This also emphasizes the need for balance in our
    lives.  I used to be a "perfectionist" and got very depressed when I
    couldn't do every thing perfectly.  Then, I learned that perfection
    means making the right kinds of compromises, always selecting the best
    one can.
    
    Take Adam.  He was in a situation where he was going to break a
    commandment.  He was perfect in choosing to break the lesser of the two
    commandments.  Or, Christ.  His mission was to the Jews - all of them.
    But, I am sure there were Jews who did neither see nor hear of Christ.
    He was perfect in His mission in that he did all he could to reach as
    many of them as possible in the limited time He had.
    
    Now, is there anything in the Scriptures that was done poorly versus not 
    doing it at all?  Hmmm.  Having faith even as a grain of a mustard seed
    is probably a good example.  Even poor faith, by this example, can be
    enough for the Lord to work in us.  Our faith does not need to start
    out being perfect.  Tithes and offerings is another.  Just because one
    cannot pay a full tithe is not sufficient reason to avoid giving to the
    Lord altogether.  
    
    I like the motto of doing things well or not at all, though.  This is
    because very often there is really not much difference between the
    effort required.  For example, David sure did well except for that one 
    slip up.  How much effort would it have been for him to exercise a bit
    better control of his lust?  How much earlier could the children of
    Israel made it to the promised land had they been more obedient?
    Saul could have done better in his life with just a bit more effort.
    
    Sorry.  I'm digressing.  
    
    Steve

	FWIW - I have found that in the conceptual teachings of
	perfection that it is best to sit down and determine exactly 
	what it is I can do at that particular point in time.  For
	example, I can attend all my church meetings.  So I plan to
	be "perfect" in doing that.  

	Lets say that I am having some trouble with genology, or 
	tithing, or home teaching.  Then I can sit down and determine 
	whether I want to ignore the subject (at least for now!) or 
	how to go about starting to bring it into my life and start 
	perfecting that subject.
	
	The biggest problem I have seen is that when people are not 
	perfect in all things they get discouraged and end up doing
	nothing.  Be perfect in what you can do and don't worry about 
	the things that you can't do right now.  As you perfect each 
	thing in it's due course, then it doesn't seem to bog you down.
	Each thing in its time and season.

	Charles

    Once upon a time, I was involved in installing paneling, along with
    some other members of the ward, in the house of a non-member. I found
    myself measuring so very carefully, and getting the paneling to fit
    within about 1/8 inch all the way across the top and bottom. This would
    often take several tries for each piece. Of course when we were through
    putting up the paneling, we put up the molding which covered a full
    inch of the top and nearly two inches of the bottom.  Was this doing a
    good job? or had we perhaps focused too much on making "perfect" cuts
    and not enough on the real task of making the room look nice. By
    focusing on the wrong thing, we spend so much time and energy that we
    were kind of "burned out" before the project was fininshed and ended up
    not doing as nice a job on parts that counted. 
    
    When we consider what our purposes of this life are, eg. personal
    development, development of relationships, development of faith,
    development of obedience and so forth, the definition of excellence
    must change.  The definition of a "good job" has more to do with the
    changes made in the person doing the job, than whether someone else
    could have done that same task in a more complete or precise manner.
    
    In fact one has to wonder, if even learning how to do things, doesn't
    have to take a lower priority to learning these "eternal things". In
    otherwords, is it perhaps better to learn faith by praying that that
    car will get where it needs to go than to learn self reliance and
    mechanics skills in fixing it.  Yes faith without works is dead, but
    where do we draw the line? (read as: limit our faith because of a lack of
    "works") 
    
    I don't know "the answers" but am finding myself leaning a lot more
    towards the faith side side of the equation and less towards the self-
    reliance side.
    
    Your brother
    
    Len
    

Some questions we all have to answer for ourseles are --

   o Do we keep the commandments because of obedience or love?

   o Is there a difference?