Conference iosg::all-in-1_v30

    Is this enough information...
    
    Probably not. There are a lot of fields in the ALL-IN-1 profile that
    aren't catered for in SYSUAF. 
    
    How might it be accomplished...
    
    With a great deal of sweat, tears, pain, and frustration. And it will
    have to be done again for ALL-IN-1 V3.0.
    
    Bottom line - tell the customer that they shouldn't do it. 
    
    Tony

    Hi guys!
    
    	Tony, what have I missed here? Doesn't sound too bad to me.
    
>    Is this enough information...
>    
>    Probably not. There are a lot of fields in the ALL-IN-1 profile that
>    aren't catered for in SYSUAF. 
>    
    	True, but you could maybe come up with some "convention" for your
    	site, for example, the ACCOUNTING field in Authorize selects an
    	ALL-IN-1 template which fills in missing info. You could hardcode
    	other values in the PROFILE (eg address etc.)
    
>    How might it be accomplished...
>    
>    With a great deal of sweat, tears, pain, and frustration. And it will
>    have to be done again for ALL-IN-1 V3.0.
>    
    	I would use the "callable interface" to create user. (Its not
    	really a callable interface, its not documented and we WILL change
    	it in a PFR, but you can call it). There was a long note in the
    	old conference (2742.* in OAWEGO::ALL-IN-1_V24) which explains
    	how to do this. You would, of course, have to call the interface
    	telling it that you had already created the VMS account, but there
    	is a parameter for that.
    
    	This "interface" didn't change in V3.0 (quite by chance) so your
    	customization should work on both V2.4 and V3.0.
    
>    Bottom line - tell the customer that they shouldn't do it. 
>    
    
    	Well I would sort of want to know *WHY* they want to do it, after
    	all the trouble we go to, to create the VMS account from ALL-IN-1,
    	why try to create the ALL-IN-1 account from VMS? I suppose the
    	customer is always right...
    
    	However, maybe Tony has seen something I haven't.
    
    Regards,
    Paul

    Well.. my point is that anytime people seem to have gone near the
    create user functionality (MUA_CREATE.COM and its close cousins) to try
    and add bells and whistles they seem to have ended up with a lot more
    work (and trouble) than they had bargined for. 
    
    I prefer to leave things that work (which MUA_CREATE does - in V2.4 and
    V3.0 anyway) alone, and add value to the parts that need enhancement. 
    
    It's true that you could settle on a set of conventions, such as using
    the ACCOUNT field in SYSUAF to identify an ALL-IN-1 template, but it
    all sounds very complicated. Also, I assume this package controls the
    deletion of users too?  Do you suggest that they start to play with
    (the V3.0 scenario) where lots of shared drawers might be around?
    
    I know Paul would use the callable interface. I would too, if the
    customer was going to pay lots of money for all the time taken to
    bridge the gap between one product and another. But then again, I might
    have that little bit more experience playing with MUA_CREATE.COM and
    its ancestors (NEWDB.COM anyone?) and have the scars to prove it. Most
    people without the scars and my personal bias would avoid the area like
    the plague.
    
    But then again, it's only my opinion. And you are certainly welcome to
    ignore it, as most do.
    
    Having fun still, Tony

I agree with Paul - *why* does the customer want to do this?  If there is some
reason why the ALL-IN-1 Create User functionality is no good for them, please
tell us so we can address the issue in a PFR!

Scott

I have to agree with Tony (twice in the same month!) on this.

Messing around with ALL-IN-1 account creation from outside A1 is 
like wrestling with a pig:  you'll just both get muddy and the pig likes it!

K.

    
    Why? Good question. The customer has adopted a 'dark' computer room
    philosophy and eliminated all of the operators over the past 2 months
    or so. It seems the two system managers were sick and tired of trying
    to automate various activities, so they found better jobs elsewhere. Now
    they have no operaters and one system manager, who has very little
    business being a system manager at this stage. The IS management thinks
    that all "Authorization" should be handled through a single interface
    for simplicity(!). This includes authorization for VMS, ALL-IN-1, a
    home grown application  also in ALL-IN-1, and Lotus. Since the
    identifiers and rights that control most of this process are granted in
    the UAF, they thought it logical for the UAF account maintenance to
    drive all application access.
    
    What if the program as 'post user addition' was to actually write a UDP 
    with all of the appropriate keystrokes and responses. The UDP could then be
    executed in a noinit mode in batch (can this be done?). This could also
    do the Lotus autorization. A ALL-IN-1 template would need to fill in
    most of the blanks but maybe I can build a UIC table that would decide
    which template to use. This does sound a bubble off center, doesn't it?
    
    Sorry for being fuzzy on this. I have only looked at this in the
    most cursory manner at this point. This is great feed back.
    
    Dave Kinney

    I would suggest that the goals of the customer would like be best met
    by showing them how smoothly ALL-IN-1 can be used to drive the
    management processes involved.  This interface is drastically improved
    in V3.0 and I suggest that you might serve the customer well by showing
    them how easy it is.

    Moreover, it would be a totally trivial thing to add the other utility
    underneath ALL-IN-1 SM code.  It would be quite easy to add the
    creation of non ALL-IN-1 accounts as well.

    Doing all of this from within ALL-IN-1 provides a more secure and
    easier to learn environment than is available in the other utility, I
    suspect.  ALL-IN-1 V3.0 now has the ability to log changes made to the
    profile, for instance.

    However, I also remind all of you that even if the customer's request
    seems stupid or ill advised it is our job to satisfy them and make them
    successful.  In this case we should attempt to get them to make the
    best choice through education but, if that fails or they have other
    reasons to not take our best advice, then we should do what they ask.

    Account creation via DCL is a moderately popular request as can be seen
    by looking in the previous volumes of this conference.  It has been
    done via a variety of folks for various reasons.  The most obvious are
    for events like DECworld and large course.  It can be done without a
    great deal of brain surgery or pig wrestling.

    Keep the faith,
    don

    Internally, at one time there was some software that almost became
    productized that did much of what is being discussed here.  It was
    called SAFE - it happened after the ALL-IN-1 Administrator concept was
    birthed - and worked very well - I had to check it out with each new
    release of ALL-IN-1 until some support group took over.
    
    My point is that in this instance, I believe the customer was right,
    they (internal Digital using less technical folks) needed a way to
    create accounts, start, stop, and restart printer queues, and a variety
    of "system management" tasks, both ALL-IN-1 and VMS,  and do it without
    messing things up.  SAFE worked very well but like many things the
    "home-brews" were more fun and SAFE died quietly with few mourners. 
    But still today we have a problem restarting printer queues at 4:45 on
    Friday, etc.
    
    I've been away from this conference for a long time but I would
    still hope that the author of this note could be warned but encouraged
    unless things have progressed so far that encouragement is not wise.
    
    I should think if nothing else we figure out a way to understand what
    needs to be done and do it all from within ALL-IN-1 - that was another
    set of stuff done at MKO early on for an OPERATOR's menu that allowed
    an operator to do everything needed at night, and gently remind them
    when something didn't happen.   Maybe ALL-IN-1 as a solution to the
    "dim" (I can't believe it will ever be "dark") operation is needed.
    
    IMHO - Bob Moore - old but still learning ALL-IN-1 advocate  
    
     

    You are both right in that the customer always comes foirst and I
    always try to do what they want. I have in the past however recommended
    that customers change direction or the way certain groups do business
    and fought the battle with various results.  I will see this customer
    on Tuesday and will talk with them at some length. 
    
    I have already mentioned that we launch the other application from
    ALL-IN-1, and that is when they crossed their eyes as if to say "no
    mere application is going to drive the management of this entire
    cluster". In the end, wee will recommend what is the right thing to do,
    and in the end, they will make the call as to how it will be done.
    
    I do appreciate all the responses and will probably revisit this topic
    next week. 8^\
    
    Dave. 

    I agree that the customer is always right, but only in th end. Between
    the time that the question is asked and the eventual answer there is
    lots of room for discussion. We would all be failing in our
    professional duty if we bent over backwards (even if we enjoyed it) to
    satisfy every customer desire, no matter how insane it was.
    
    I agree too that customers do need tools to help them manage systems.
    That's the reason why third parties, such as the one referenced in .0,
    make money selling products to do the job. All products tend to forget
    about the needs and requirements of others, mostly because they are
    unaware of what they are. ALL-IN-1 is no better or no worse in this
    respect than anything else that I am personally aware of. ALL-IN-1 does
    take care of VMS account creation, and the whole system management area
    is getting better every time (the result of lots of practice), but we
    still don't do things like defining CDD dictionaries, or setting up
    20/20 or Lotus 1-2-3 entries. How can ALL-IN-1, when each system is
    different?
    
    I think Don made the best suggestion. Show the customer how easy it is
    to run the third party tool from an ALL-IN-1 menu option, and try and
    influence them to go that way. You might find it easier to approach the
    situation from ALL-IN-1 rather than trying to bend ALL-IN-1 to fit the
    other way, at least in this case.
    
    I'm rambling now. It's late at night. 
    
    Tony