Conference bulova::decw_jan-89_to_nov-90

Assuming you are using VMS V5.3 ("DECwindows V2"), use the Customize -
Applications Menu option of the session manager dialog box.

			Steve

I tried this but if I click a 'system default' option like DECterm 
from the menu item list the REMOVE
dont' work (only private added application are removale.).


Frido!

Frido,

Exactly what pulldowns and commands are you doing?  I just tried removing
FileView and it vaporized from the application pulldown like a charm.  Is
it possible you logged out and back in to the workstation without saving
the session manager settings?

Steve

  I try to remove it from the "Applocation Definitions" .., its no problem to
  remove it from the APPLICATIN MENU or the AUTOSTART (all under 'customize')

Frido!

  P.s. redefine of a 'system default' also don't work. I tried to modify some
       entries, e. g. the bookreader.
 
         at the sessionmanaer click on 'CUSTOMIZE' the on 
         "Applocation Definitions", now "bookreader"
         You will see the commandline, but you CAN'T changes this line

    Oh, by the way ...

    Who made these "system default" application definitions so indestructable
    anyways? Seems more of a pain than a pleaser. 

    Kevin

Re: .5

>    Who made these "system default" application definitions so indestructable
>    anyways? Seems more of a pain than a pleaser. 

It was probably designed that way so a user experimenting with Customize
couldn't accidently delete an important definition.  The question is: should
you give users enough rope to hang themselves?  (Some people have an almost
religious belief that the answer is "yes" and others say "no".)

What's interesting here is that you're trying to disable what the session
manager considers to be a vital feature, and presumably your motivation is
that you *don't* want users to have enough rope to hang themselves (by running
DECterm or Fileview).

In general, DECwindows is designed with the idea that users will have control
over their workstation (within some limits).  I've often seen requests from
people that want to disable some of the user interface features (such as the
menubar or the Quit command in DECterm).  It isn't very easy to do this,
because that wasn't a design goal when we were writing the software.

				-- Bob

>>> What's interesting here is that you're trying to disable what the session
>>> manager considers to be a vital feature, and presumably your motivation is
>>> that you *don't* want users to have enough rope to hang themselves (by 
>>> running DECterm or Fileview).

        That's very interesting. But bear with me here ... 

        You see, I run Banner, and I like that it shows me which processes
        are using up my tiny 2000's CPU. However, I noticed that I couldn't
        tell, among the processes started by Session Manager, which
        processes were which, because they all have similar names. Like
        MENDEL_SM1 or something. 

        So, in order to start my applications in processes with MEANINGFUL
        NAMES, I hade to redefine the applications to run a command
        procedure that sets the process name and then executes the command.
        And then I had to add code in my login.com, so that it could detect
        that it was logging in as a session manager application, and not
        bother doing silly terminal-only things, because session
        manager-started processes run login.com with f$mode() set to
        "INTERACTIVE", which is annoying. 

        NOW, because I couldn't redefine Calendar, I hade to create a new
        application, "My Calendar". Because I couldn't redefine "Clock", I
        had to create "My Clock". Because I couldn't redefine "Paint", I had
        to create "My Paint". Because I couldn't redefine "Mail", I had to
        create "My Mail". Etc. Etc. Just so they could have a nice name. 

        Now (in my best Arlo Guthrie imitation) I mean, I MEAN, you're going
        to tell me that, after debugging session manager application
        startup, after learning to detect a SM-started session in my
        login.com, and all that mean, nasty, ugly stuff ... 

        You're going to tell me that Paint is such VITAL application that I
        am going to HANG MYSELF trying to change it? 

	Kid? 

        :-) 

        Kevin 

>>What's interesting here is that you're trying to disable what the session
>>manager considers to be a vital feature, 

Bob,

I think you're reading too much into this.  I believe that Karen already
plans to relax this restriction in a future version, and I don't think
it was that conscious a decision to make the restriction in the first place.

I leave Karen to make the final remarks on this one.

-steve-

Re: .7, .8

OK, I can see where someone might want to redefine the standard application
definitions.  Maybe the session manager should put up a warning box asking
"Do you REALLY know what you're doing?"  :-)

				-- Bob

	Why not allow the user to redefine the standard application 
	definitions with the following change to the UI? 

	Next to the "Add" button in the "Customize Applications Definitions"
	dialog box, put a "Restore System Default" button that is sensitive 
	when the user selects a standard application in the "Menu Items" list.
	If he hits this button when a standard application is selected, restore
	the system default definition.

	This would give us both the flexibility of changing the definitions
	and the safety of having the defaults always available.

	The hard-coded applications are in the resource file
	decw$system_defaults:decw$session.dat.  I override the
	command lines of the hard-coded applications by redefining
	them in my own copy of decw$session.dat in sys$login:
	(i.e., in decw$user_defaults:).  I haven't tried to
	remove a hard-coded application entirely though.  You
	can try redefining it to not have a command (sounds risky)
	or commenting the line out of the system copy of the
	decw$session.dat file.

	Dan

	P.S.  The resources look like (the tail end of
	decw$system_defaults:decw$session.dat)

sm.applications:	Bookreader,Calculator,Calendar,Cardfiler,Clock,DECterm,CDA Viewer,EVE,FileView,Mail,Notepad,Paint,Puzzle
sm.Bookreader.command:	run sys$system:decw$bookreader
sm.Calculator.command:	run sys$system:decw$calc
sm.Calendar.command:	run sys$system:decw$calendar
sm.Cardfiler.command:	run sys$system:decw$cardfiler
sm.Clock.command:	run sys$system:decw$clock
sm.DECterm.command:	create/terminal=decterm/detach
sm.CDA Viewer.command:	view/interface=decwindows
sm.EVE.command:		EDIT/TPU/DISPLAY=DECWINDOWS
sm.FileView.command:	run sys$system:vue$master.exe
sm.Mail.command:	run sys$system:decw$mail
sm.Notepad.command:	run sys$system:decw$notepad
sm.Paint.command:	run sys$system:decw$paint
sm.Puzzle.command:	run sys$system:decw$puzzle

    
    Everyone is right.  I designed it so that the system application
    definitions could not be redefined.  That way, I didn't have to worry
    about people changing them and then wanting to restore them.  It was
    easier and quicker to do it that way and I didn't have much time.  I
    knew I could do better in a future version...
    
    I know it is a pain, and you won't have to worry about this in V3!!
    
    Karen