Conference bulova::decw_jan-89_to_nov-90

RTFM ...

Change the ICON box to be the way you want it.  Then press MB2 in the ICON box
and save current settings.

I really hate it when people ask questions that are so clearly documented ...

	-- Jeff

	Well, on the one hand, .0 should have made more of an effort to
	find the answer on his own, since it is in the documentation and
	has been mentioned several times previously in this conference...

	On the other hand, the fact that so many people ask the question
	might indicate that we need better documentation; or a more obvious
	way to save icon box geometry, or a more obvious hook to on-line
	help... How can we make it easier for people for people to find
	these things on their own than it is for them to enter notes? (maybe
	this is a tribute to the ease-of-use of Notes:-)

	Mike

Maybe a tribute to how hard it is to find a subject in a conference?  (Actually,
I don't find it that way, but maybe it is.)

One thing about the window manager and the clock...every other application
has Customize as a menu.  You never find it in an MB2 popup.  In fact, I suspect
that 90% of DW users never use MB2 popups at all.

I think that it would be nice if there were a quick and easy way that people could
find out the "guiding principles" of XUI style (and motif to come).  A little
example CBI thing that was very obvious when you first logged in would help.
It would teach things like:

MB1 click selects.  Menus often operate on selected things
MB1 drag moves things
MB1 double click selects and does a default action
MB2 does a popup menu
MB3 pastes (and maybe some other application-dependent function)

A menu with ... means that selecting it will bring up a dialog box
A menu with [-> means a pull-right
A menu with nothing at the end means it will happen right away
The leftmost menu entry is where you find control and file info.

etc etc

Burns

Thanks to .1 - but in my defense I have a couple of comments...

Granted I should have waded through this conference longer but this conference
is now so huge, and the access time being what it is from my part of Easynet
that it takes too long to perform searchs. Personally I feel this conference
is getting too large to be useful for occasional searchs.I have to look after
some 20+ machines and do not have the time to spend on such activities...

With regard to reading the documentation set, I *did* look. However the only
copy I have is online, which doesn't help. When I did find the section
(unless I looked in the wrong place) it only mentions how customise the
shrinking of icons via animation and setting input focus and *not* locating
the position of the icon box - which is what and why I asked.

As a final comment, I go along whole heartedly that in my experience very
few use MB2...

Martin

Could this be a VMS version problem. I have pressed MB2 nearly through my 
desk and my ICON window comes up in the same place every time after login.

	Stephen

	re .4: 

>Granted I should have waded through this conference longer but this conference
>is now so huge, and the access time being what it is from my part of Easynet
>that it takes too long to perform searchs. Personally I feel this conference
>is getting too large to be useful for occasional searchs.I have to look after
>some 20+ machines and do not have the time to spend on such activities...

	Just do what I do - start a DIR/TITLE or SEARCH in one window
	and go do some useful work. You'll get your answer faster this
	way, and won't annoy people with redundant questions (and make
	it harder for other people to find things in the future).

	Mike

    re .5:  If I remember right, this behavior only started in DECwindows
    V2, that is VMS V5.3.  If you don't get a pop-up menu, it is not going
    to save the position.  Don't bother logging out and in to try it if
    you did not select "Save Customized" or some such from a menu.
    
    Burns
    

	Better than all that can I sell you a cheap copy of PAVN. This is a 
	program to all the searching in batch mode. ODIXIE::AVN gets you 
	the address of the saveset etc.

	You will never look back.

	End commercial break

		Stephen

Considering that the title of the Icon Box tells you to use MB2 for
customization after the first "pop to front" operation, I wonder how much
more obvious it could be made without a full-screen pop-up.

The problem with clearer documentation is that nobody ever reads it.

			Steve

You could have the Icon Box always say "use MB2 for customization" in its title
bar.  I have the Icon Box set to be sticky to the screen background on 
initialization, so I never see a first "pop to front" operation.

--PSW

       RE: .10
       
       	I thought the Icon Box DID say that?
       
       							mike

I also have the icon box sticky, but I still get the instructional title because
it's not the pop-to-front of the icon box that triggers the change but of
any windows created in the session.

The title has three values.  When it first comes up, it contains a copyright
notice.  The first time you do a PTF, it changes to the one that tells you
about MB2.  the second PTF gives you the plain "Icon Box" title.

			Steve

    My Icon Box says "Use MB2 to Cu".

    Of course, it's configured to be narrow.

    :-)

    Kevin

Mine just says "Icon Box".  Maybe the "use MB2" legend went by too fast and I
didn't notice it.  But that's as bad as its not being there, from a human
factors standpoint.

--PSW

It ends up saying "Icon Box" after the second pop-to-front in the session.
Exit your session, start a new session, and watch the icon box title.  Or go
read the release notes/New Features manuals.

			Steve

    While I think the "change icon box title every PTF through #2" is cute,
    and maybe even nifty, my intuition (and experience) tell me that I want
    to be watching for the result of my action, not the icon box title bar.
    I use windowing systems (Macintosh, DECwindows) to make my life quicker
    and easier - I can multiplex things better - and so do not think I need
    to look over every artifact on the screen after every mouse action just
    to see if there is something of interest happening.  I thought that was
    what alert boxes were for.  
    
    After all that, I'd be happy just to have the location of my carefully
    placed icons retained from session to session.  That seems to be about 
    the only "major" customization unavailable by standard means or clever
    fixes by the real accomplished types frequenting this conference.
    
    Thanks...Gary         
    
    BTW - At startup, is there a way to position icons (as there is to
    position DECterms)?  I used to do it with CHILD, but can't figure out
    how "native".

    My Icon box DEFINITELY NEVER gives the MB2 message. And I've tried it
    anyway, but it doesn't work. Now what????
                  
    I have version 5.1
    
    Ray
    
    
    
    
                        

Re: .18

The feature is new in VMS V5.3.

		Steve

It's things like this that make creating DECwindows-based DTM tests such a
fun challenge ;-)

						Trace

Note 1999.5 How hard do you press MB2 

Could this be a VMS version problem. I have pressed MB2 nearly through my 
desk and my ICON window comes up in the same place every time after login.

    
    Me too. MB2 save savings does not save my current position.
    I am using VAX/VMS T5.4-4FK.
    What .dat file do I have to modify?
    
    thanks,
            mike

RE: .-1

Do you perhaps have some old stuff in DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT that tries to
set the icon box position?  If so, you might try clearing that out.
In fact, if it were me, I'd search through all those bloody .DAT files and
nuke any reference to icon box, logout and back in again, and then try saving 
the settings.

    If I delete the DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT then how do I transfer my settings
    across machines? 
    
    I tried deleting the DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT.*, but the icon box still
    refuses to save the settings.
    
    BTW there is no mention of MB2 for customization in the title bar of
    my icon box. It says:
    
Icon Box: Copyright � 1988,1989 Digital Equipment Corporation All Rights Reserved

    This is on VAX/VMS T5.4-4FK  

    RE: .23 still not working...
    
    This should work. Position the mouse pointer in the icon box. 
    Click on MB2 and drag to the "Save Settings" button. Release
    the mouse button. You should have a new file decw$winmgr.dat
    in decw$user_defaults. It should contain a *geometry specification
    for your saved geometry. When you log out and back in, your
    window manager should have the saved settings.

    Finally the problem is discovered, I had defined 
    DECW$USER_DEFAULTS to be SYS$LOGIN_DEVICE:[TAYLOR.DECWINDOWS]
    and something did like the logical SYS$LOGIN_DEVICE.
    (SYS$LOGIN_DEVICE is defined in the JOB table.)
    When I used either physical device name or a system logical 
    to point to the device, then MB2 worked. 

    Any ideas on why SYS$LOGIN_DEVICE can not be used?
    Or why no error message is produced either at login time 
    or when I tried to save the settings?
    
    thanks,
           mike

Sys$login_device may well be created after the window manager starts.  The WM
gets started directly in LOGINOUT if I remember right.

Burns

    Interesting, LOGINOUT also creates the job logical Sys$login_device.
    A confusing part of Sys$login_device is that it works ok in DECW$LOGIN.COM.

Not so confusing:   decw$login.com is not run till long after the process is
owned by the user who logged in; thus all the user's environment has been
set up.  The window manager is run at the beginning of the world.  It may even
be while the process is still owned by system (as it is when the login box
is being displayed).

Burns