Conference bulova::decw_jan-89_to_nov-90

    Let me rephrase my comments as questions, in the hope of eliciting some
    response:
    
    1.  Is there any way under DECW V2 that I can change the icon name of my
    session manager icon?
    
    2.  Is there any way under DECW V2 to have the V1 Clock face
    arrangement, besides preserving and running the V1 clock executable?
    
    3.  Why is it that the commands associated with "predefined" menu 
    items cannot be changed via the Customize Application Definitions
    dialog box? Is there a supported way to change them, assuming editing
    decw$system_defaults:decw$session.dat is not supported?
    

>>    1.  Is there any way under DECW V2 that I can change the icon name of my
>>    session manager icon?

	$ type decw$session.dat
	*Session Manager.title: Daniel V. D'Eramo
	*Session Manager.iconName:      sm
	*Session Manager.geometry:      +3+722

	Look at the system decw$session.dat and just customize that.

	Dan

	> *Session Manager.title: Daniel V. D'Eramo
	> *Session Manager.iconName:      sm
    
    Does your example above actually work on a VMS 5.3/DW V2 system? 
    Under VMS 5.2/DW V1 I had the following in my DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT:
	
	*Session Manager.iconName:      	Session
    
    which I arrived at by inspecting the V1 DECW$SESSION.DAT, which had the
    above resource with a value of "!AS on !AS". I noticed at the time that
    other session manager resources used the class name "sm", as in 
    
	sm.display_background:			DarkSlateGrey
	sm.pointer_foreground:			Red
    
    When my V2 session manager icon came up with the default name, I looked
    in DECW$SESSION.DAT and found (1) no "iconName" resource, and (2) no
    resources with "*Session Manager" as a class name. Just to be sure I
    tried both the following, in both DECW$SYSTEM_DEFAULTS:DECW$SESSION.DAT
    and SYS$LOGIN:DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT:
    
	*Session Manager.iconName:      	Session
        sm.iconName:      			Session
    
    Since none of the above has worked for me, I question whether it really
    works for you...

>>    Having just installed VMS T5.3, and hence DECW V2, I have two grumbles
>>    (aka nits, I guess):

>>	Under VMS 5.2/DW V1 ...

	Oops.  I had thought that VMS V5.2 (what I am running) had the
	second version of DECwindows but apparently not.  FWIW it does
	work on VMS V5.1 and VMS V5.2.

	It looks like they decided what the best title and icon were for
	the entire world, and with VMS V5.3 they intend to enforce it. :^)

	There is a program in DW_EXAMPLES that I used to use (before
	discovering decw$session.dat) to change the title and icon of
	the session manager window.

	Dan

	> There is a program in DW_EXAMPLES that I used to use (before
	> discovering decw$session.dat) to change the title and icon of
	> the session manager window.
    
    Do you have the note number handy? If not I'll find it... (!) (:-)
    I tried to make myself such a program by taking parts from other
    programs, treewalk.c and set_title.c ...
    

    The program following the formfeed sets the Session Manager icon name
    to the string supplied as the porgram's argument. For example:
    
    	set_sm_icon "Session"
    
    I run it in my DECW$LOGIN.COM.
    
    Acknowledgements to the authors of SET_TITLE, SETWIN, and TREEWALK.
    
    
    
/*
 * set_sm_icon -- set the sm icon name to string supplied as first argument.
 */
#include <stdio.h>
#include <decw$include/Xlib.h>
#include <decw$include/Xutil.h>

static void	SearchWindowTree( Window window );
static Display*	theDisplay;
static Window 	smWindow = 0;

int main( int argc, char** argv )
    {
    if (! (theDisplay = XOpenDisplay(NULL)) ) 
	{
        fprintf( stderr, "Can't open display\n" );
        exit(0);
	}

    if ( argc < 2 )
	{
        fprintf( stderr, "Usage: set_sm_icon <new_name>\n" );
        exit(0);
	}

    SearchWindowTree( RootWindow(theDisplay, DefaultScreen(theDisplay)) );
    if ( smWindow )
	XSetIconName( theDisplay, smWindow, argv[1] );

    XCloseDisplay( theDisplay );
    exit(0);
    }

void SearchWindowTree( Window window )
    {
    Window 	current, root, parent, *children;
    int 	nchildren, i; 
    int		nameMatch = 0, classMatch = 0;
    XClassHint	chint = {NULL, NULL};

    XQueryTree( theDisplay, window, &root, &parent, &children, &nchildren );
    XGetClassHint( theDisplay, window, &chint );

    if (chint.res_name)
        {
	nameMatch = ( strcmp("Session Manager", chint.res_name) == 0 );
	chint.res_name = NULL;
	XFree(chint.res_name);
        }
    if (chint.res_class)
        {
	classMatch = ( strcmp("Decw$Session", chint.res_class) == 0 );
	chint.res_class = NULL;
	XFree(chint.res_class);
        }

    if ( nameMatch && classMatch )
        smWindow = window;

    else if ( nchildren > 0 )
        {
        Window* child;
        for (i = 0, child = children; i < nchildren; ++i, ++child)
	    if ( smWindow == 0 )
                SearchWindowTree( *child );
        XFree(children);
        }

    return;
    }

    
    Just got VMS 5.3 and DECW V2 last night.
    
    Questions:
    
    1.  Is there a way of disabling menu options on the Customize pull down
    	menu from the session manager?
    
    2. 	What .dat file does the window manager look at for placing the icon
    	box on a user basis?  Is it DECW$WINMGRSAVE.DAT?  Can the geometry
    	and X&Y for the icon box be set in any other files?
    
    3.  My current DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT contains settings for the Window
    	Manager, Session Manager, DECterm, NOTES, Calendar, Clock, and
    	XPostit.  Since this file is unsupported, I take it that the
    	alternative way is to have a .DAT for each.  
    
    	DECW$WINMMGRSAVE.DAT for user's customized WM resources
    	DECW$SM_GENERAL.DAT for user's customized SM resources
        DECW$NOTES.DAT for  ""  ""    "" NOTES ""
    	DECW$CLOCK.DAT  ""   ""   ""   ""  CLOCK  ""
    	etc.
    
    	Is this correct?
    
    4.  When does the DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT file get read?  Placing Window
    	manager resources in DECW$SM_GENERAL.DAT does not work for 
    	customizing WM.  Does XDEFAULTS get read first and then each
    	applications .DAT as it starts up, SEESION MGR, then all autostart
    	appplications?
    
    5.	What is the difference in use for DECW$SESSION.DAT and
    	DECW$SM_GENERAL.DAT?  Aren't they both for the session manager?
    
    Enough for now!
                                         
    Thanks in advance
    Lisa Lombardo
    FSG Engineering

1.  Disabling SM menu option items

	The only way that I can think of is to use resource files
	(unsupported) and turn off sensitivity for those pushbuttons in
	the menus.  You have to know the name of the buttons, however.
	Unfortunately, the names have been taken out of DECW$SESSION.DAT
	and place in the UID file for the session manager as promised in
	all the notes relating to resource files.  A resource specification
	in your own DECW$SESSION.DAT for turning off sensitivity (this file
	would be in SYS$LOGIN:) might be as follows:

	*Widgetname*sensitivity:	off

2.  Icon Placement

	Under DECwindows V2.0 (VMS only right now), MB2 in the Icon Box will
	bring up a pop-up menu allowing you to SAVE SETTINGS.  It will save
	your icon box placement and size into the file DECW$WINMGR.DAT found 
	in DECW$USER_DEFAULTS: (which points to SYS$LOGIN: normally).

3.  XDEFAULTS is not supported

	Actually, what is unsupported is direct user modifications of ANY
	X resource files not just DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT.  The application should
	be the one which makes modifications to these files, not the user.
	(PLEASE, I am just stating the reason for the unsupported status.
	Let's not start yet another note on this philosophy!).

4.  When are resource files read.

	This is the way that it used to be for DECwindows v1.0.  I think
	that it is still the same.

	LOGIN TIME:

	  DECW$LOGINOUT.EXE
		a.  Look for the following files in DECW$USER_DEFAULTS:
		    first and if they do not exist, then look in 
		    DECW$SYSTEM_DEFAULTS:

		    1.  One of the following files pertaining to session
			color setup depending on the hardware and visual
			setup

			a.  DECW$SM_COLOR.DAT   (multi-plane color monitor)
			b.  DECW$SM_GRAY.DAT    (multi-plane mono monitor)
			c.  DECW$SM_BW.DAT      (mono frame buffer)

		    2.  Non-color characteristics about the session are
			found in DECW$SM_GENERAL.DAT.

		b.  Read in DECW$USER_DEFAULTS:DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT.  This file
		    is ONLY read at login.  

		c.  All of the information from above (with an exception 
		    which will just confuse things) is merge to create the
		    RESOURCE_MANAGER property on the root window for use
		    by applications.

	APPLICATION STARTUP (Toolkit initialization)

	The following resources are merged destructively:

	1.  SYSTEM Class-specific resource file found in DECW$SYSTEM_DEFAULTS.
	    The file name takes the following form:  <appclass>.DAT
	    An example is DECW$SESSION.DAT or DECW$CLOCK.DAT

	2.  USER Class-specific resource file found in DECW$USER_DEFAULTS.

	3.  RESOURCE_MANAGER property from the root window (set up at
	    login.

5.  The difference between DECW$SESSION.DAT and DECW$SM_GENERAL.DAT is 
    that DECW$SESSION.DAT applies specifically to the Session Manager
    application only.  DECW$SM_GENERAL.DAT, on the other hand, contains
    non-color information that applies to the login session as a whole.
    It is this file, for example, which is created/modified in 
    DECW$USER_DEFAULTS when the user customizes things like print screen
    format, mouse acceleration, or window manager name, and then selects
    Save Current Settings.

If I have said something which is wrong, I will surely be corrected but this
is the way it worked as I understood it for V1.0.

Hope this helps,

David 

    re: .8 item 2
    
    I tried this right off, to no effect.  I thought I read this in the
    release notes (or new features, or...).  Any other ideas?
    
    Thanks...Gary

    
    
    In SYS$LOGIN:DECW$SSESSION.DAT and DECW$SM_GENERAL.DAT
    i tried
    
    *setupmenu.KeyboardButton.sensitive: false
    
    and
    
    *setupmenu.KeyboardButton*sensitivity: off
    
    and they did not work.
    
    Any other suggestions?
    
    Can I put wm*geometry in DECW$SM_GENERAL.DAT?  Will the window manager
    find it there?
    
    Thanks .8!
    
    Lisa

re: -1

wm*geometry:

Why do you want to put it there? The window manager reads DECW$WINMGRSAVE.DAT
and uses the resources in there. And you don't need to edit the file to
change them. Just use MB2 on the ICON BOX and it'll do it for you.

    
    Just an fyi... during internal field test the window
    manager would read decw$winmgrsave.dat.   This was
    changed to decw$winmgr.dat in decw$user_defaults:
    for EFT1 and later.
    
    Nancy

     <<< Note 1469.9 by HABS11::MASON "Explaining is not understanding" >>>
                             -< Icon placement... >-
    
>     re: .8 item 2
>     
>     I tried this right off, to no effect.  I thought I read this in the
>     release notes (or new features, or...).  Any other ideas?
    
    Typo,  he mean "Icon *Box* Placement", not "Icon Placement"
    
    Regards,
    
    	 	== ken miller ==

Greetings:

   I, too, have V2 of this DECWindows, and along with this version I have 
some questions and comments:

                                    QUESTIONS
 
1: I am used to setting the geometry and position of various applications,
   notably the Clock. After reading all the replies in this topic, I note that
   there is no information about how to set the default geometry or position of
   any application, with the exception of the Icon Box (I am, incidently, 
   impressed by the manner in which the Icon Box defaults are set). I would be 
   interested in knowing if there is an easy way to do this for other 
   applications and what that way is.

2: Concerning the clock: it has, as noted earlier in this topic, changed. 
   The default appearence of the clock is, in a word, terrible. Is there
   any way to change the individual window sizes (for the date, analog- 
   time, and digital- time windows) on the clock so that the clock 
   can have a more reasonable appearence?

3: I have used MB2 on the Icon Box, and was able to resize and reposition it. I
   was not, however, able to set the positions of the icons within it. Is 
   there a way to do this?

   Thank you in advance for your assistance.

                                    COMMENTS
 
                                  ***WARNING***
   I may get somewhat emotional here, though I will try to avoid it. Anyone 
not interested in criticism, constructive or otherwise, may wish to skip 
this section.
                                  *************

   This version of DECwindows appears to be implemented in a manner that is 
somewhat cleaner than the previous version. Unfortunately, much of its 
flexibility appears to have been removed.

   While I agree with the philosophy (described a few replies ago) that 
only applications should manipulate ".DAT" files to set their defaults, I 
see no indication that many applications have been given the ability to 
customize themselves to the degree that users were able to do in the previous 
version.

   I am disheartened by our apparent inability to change the title of the 
Session Manager icon. I am especially annoyed by our apparent inability 
to prevent the startup of Fileview -- which I have absolutely no use for.

   In the previous version, I was able to control such things as the color 
of individual parts of a terminal, the position of icons within the Icon 
Box, the position that application windows would have upon startup, and 
whether or not certain "standard" applications such as Fileview would start 
up.

   Unless I am incorrect, I do not have these abilities anymore.

   If I am correct, then it is my opinion that this version is "less" 
than (inferior to) the previous version. If I am correct, then Digital has 
cleaned up its implementation while taking a step backward. My belief is that
flexibility is one of the most important things a product can have. If we have 
sacrificed the kind of flexibility that I have enumerated in the previous 
paragraphs, then this product is no longer what it could be.

   Someone please correct me if we have not sacrificed the kind of 
flexibility I have been "talking" about.

                                                        -Robert Brown III

Re: .14

You are mistaken in some of your conceptions.  You do have the ability to
control which applications start automatically (Customize AutoStart), the
colors used in DECterms (Customize Window).  Some applications (notably
Mail) provide great flexibility in window configuration, for some others,
you have the same ability you used to have in editing the configuration
files.  Nothing has changed as regards positioning of icons.

Many things are better, a few are different.  Overall, I see a great 
improvement from V1, but with lots of room for further improvement.

				steve

Steve:

1: The first thing I looked at when the Fileview Window started appearing
   on my screen was the "Customize Autostart" menu. It puts up a couple
   of empty windows and tells me to "click on items" that I want the 
   application to start (the left- hand window) or remove from the "autostart"
   list (the right- hand window).

   Both windows are empty. The Fileview  appliocation is not displayed. How 
   do I remove it?

2: There's a pretty important change in icon positioning. That is that you 
   must now multiply x by 20 and y by 30 in order to place icons in the same
   position in the Icon Box that they used to be in Version 1. You are still
   required to edit ".DAT" files -- a practice which I understand is not 
   supported and will be dis- allowed in future versions of DECwindows. Worse:
   I still have popup windows (such as the NOTES window that I am using to
   write this reply) which put their icons at odd positions on the screen. 
   What resource do I set (especially on NOTES) to position the popup icons? I
   was able to do so before. I cannot do so now.

                                                        -Robert Brown III

Re: .16

Strange - my system didn't do that.  I wonder if you have modified the
various system configuration files.  Try Customize Applications Menu and
select or remove items from the Applications menu.  Then you can use
Customize AutoStart to select which ones you want automatically started.

			Steve

    Robert,

    I grumbled somewhere else about the loss of naming the Session Manager
    Icon. "MENDEL on WYRD" is a silly name. I didn't want anything fancy, 
    I just thought "Session Manager" was more appropriate.

    Kevin

This is starting to get weird.

   None of my scrolling menu boxes displays anything. The elevators 
indicate that there is information in the boxes, but I don't see anything 
in them.

   The Applications Definitions, Applications Menu, and Autostart all 
display these "empty" boxes.

   In fact, I even added a bogus application definition. The elevator in 
the "menu items" scroll window adjusted as if something was added, but 
nothing appeared in the box!

   Incidently, I did not mess around with any system files, since to do so 
would have incurred the wrath of my supervisor and half my department.

   By the way: a question I forgot to ask in my last message: If the 
flexibility of DECwindows has been preserved, then why have we lost the 
abolity to change the title of the Session Manager icon? There have been 
ways suggested to do so in this topic, but people who have tried them 
failed to change the title.

   And I reiterate the questions I asked in my last two entries (except, of 
course, for the ones concerning Fileview). I still do not see why this version
of DECwindows is not inferior to the previous version, since the appearence 
and control of the clock seems to be less than before, we seem to have lost
some ability to customize the Session Manager, and control of certain NOTES 
icon positioning seems to be lost.

                                                            -Robert Brown III 

Sounds to me like your foreground and background listbox colors are the same.
Knowing your predilection for customization, it seemed reasonable to suggest
this possibility.

-steve-

Question about clock and customization.

For all of my applications (clock, calculator, cardfiler and puzzle) you can
save the geometry automatically by saving the customization.  In the clock and
the puzzle its save settings and in the cardfiler and the calculator its save
geometry.  The geometry thats saved is the current geometry.

For the clock the save settings is on the MB2 popup.

The clock format change (as explained before) was done to support
internationalization.  The request to allow the old format is noted and on the
wish list for the next version.

Neal

In reference to .20:

   A good possibility. Question: what resources set the VLIST foreground
and background colors? I was unaware that such resources existed.

   If there is no resource, then what customization menu item is used? I have
checked the customization pulldowns on the session manager closely (it 
occurred to me that a session manager setting may have been the culprit), and
even experimented with the color settings. Nothing seems to effect the
VLIST the way you suggested.


In reference to .21:

   Thanks. I shall wait for the next version of CLOCK with great interest.

                                                             -Robert Brown III

>> Question: what resources set the VLIST foreground
>> and background colors? 

Depends on the version of the VList widget.

V1: background, foreground, boldForeground.
    Also classes Background and Foreground.

V2: background, and foreground.
    Also under program control through a color palette.
    Also classes Background and Foreground.

-steve-