Conference bulova::decw_jan-89_to_nov-90

    
    I'd imagine that many aren't even reading it.  I'm only on the
    xpert/xport mailing lists.  (Question:  this is gated onto
    comp.windows.x but is the reverse also done?)  I know that some
    developers don't even read this notesfile.
    
    					m

    Wouldn't it be great if these Usenet mailing lists could be buffered at
    a gateway into a NOTES file?
    
    /John

    
    Or even have news software running on VMS.  I'd *love* that.
    
    						m

I'd second the real RN or VN software running with NNTP support from a 
VMS client. That'd be wonderful. Stuffing all the use-noise into a notes
fill would fill our available space. Also having to filter the stuff that
comes from ROLL::USENET nightly is a real pain. 

I've got the Ultrix sources on a VMS disk, but haven't had time to look at
what would be involved in getting it going on VMS - it makes heavy use of 
Un*x style links which RMS doesn't support (why isn't there a ref count in
the file header?). If anyone is interested in the code, I'll make a save set
available for a short time.

James

    
    
    Why not just dedicate a note or topic to hold the mail from
    ASHBY::USENET (specifically comp.windows.x) ??  Too much space ??
    Too little time ???  
    
    This might help bring some of the "problems/issues" that are mentioned
    here to our (Digital's) attention.
    
    Just a thought,
    
    +Joe+
    

The mailing to usenet.comp.windows.x for the period from 6 Feb 1989 to 
12-Feb-1989 alone was over 2200 disk blocks. Since much of it is not 
on a single topic, it sould easily become it's own NOTES file. Unfortunately,
much of it is "Where can I find FTP for xxxx?" and other assorted drivel 
which noone really want's to keep. The USENET distribution system provides 
a mechanism for the "expiration" of this noise and provides a means for 
deleteing it. Notes has no such mechanism, so simply converting it into 
a NOTES file will cause "disk expansion failure..." in just a few days or
at most weeks.

The better solution is to put up a usenoise server on an Ultrix system (sound
of VMS users gasping, and Ultrix users saying "We've got it now...") and to
build a tool for VMS which will talk to the Ultrix server. That way we can 
use the existing distribution tools and provide a minimial resistance path 
for the VMS readers.

James

    I realize that there is a lot of interest in Digital employee reading
    USENET newsgroups.  There is a VAX Notes conference dedicated to that
    topic on {ROLL,ASHBY}::USENET
    
    I would like to focus on the impact of a someone saying "DECwindows sucks"
    in the newsgroup and having that read by hundreds.
    
    What's the party line on replying?  If one does not exist what should
    be done.
    
    It's far more likely for heavy workstation users to be on USENET and to
    be influenced than most other Digital customers.

I have xrn (an NNTP/X11 new reader) for Ultrix.  Porting libXmu and
libXaw to VMS should be trivial.  xrn wouldn't be much harder.

Who wants to do it?

        Geoff Huston, who developed a vms news interface, has modified his
        code, so that the user interface looks just like vaxnotes. I shall
        get a copy from him next week, and post it...
        
        q
        

Replying to usenet noise is at best hazardous. Regardless of what disclaimer
is maded in the text, it still gets sent with an Organization: header of 
Digital Equipment Corp. and as such, may be construded by someone to be a 
commitment by Digital. This could put both DEC and the sender in "deep sneakers"
In short, unless one has the clear authority to speak for Digital, it's best 
to refrain.

Also, if reading USENET noise becomes as easy as reading internal NOTES, the 
distinction between what is public (USENET) and what is internal (for example
this notes file) becomes blured. This exposes Digital to the risk that extremely
confidential information (for instance about unanounced products) could become
public before desired and destroy any competative advantage. 

As to what Digital Product Managment should do about obvious mis-information on
the USENET, it is unclear. The amount of time that it takes to filter through
all that stuff is almost overwhelming. Digital has not historicly had interest
in the USENET, but perhaps it is now in the arena where this is becoming more
important. In the specific case to which you refer, perhaps you should send the
offending material to product management and let them make a determination as to
the proper course of action.

I'm not suggesting that we just ignore the USENET and hope it goes away, but 
there is concrete evidence that responding to USENET noise can cause damage to 
your company. Most recently, information from employees at Motorola confirmed
that indeed they were working on a new 68000 based chip product. I can imagine
what leverage this gives someone wanting to buy such a chip.

I understand the concern, just see the product manager before saying anything.

James

    I agree it's too much noise for one person, and too much pain for the
    gain.
    
    The one time I brought up a USENET contribution to field management was
    once when someone accused a Digital field employee of lying.  Of
    course, I never knew the outcome, but I did the right thing in
    elevating it.  I stopped reading the vms newsgroup a little while after
    that.
         

    Re: .0 (etal)
    
    I just logged into my Ultrix access node (DECUAC) and:
    
    	vnews -n comp.windows.x ... read about a hundred NOTES
    
    and didn't see anything derogatory towards DecWindows/DEC.
    
    What were the complaints/mis-perceptions ? This IS in reality
    only V1.0. There's always room for improvement in S/W (even
    in the "mature OS" VMS).
    
    Later,
    Randy
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    There have been comments on the Usenet for years of the form "VAX
    sucks", "VMS sucks", and the like.  If we get comments of the form
    "DECwindows sucks", it's only because it's a product.  I recommend
    business as usual.  No need to go into hyper-reactive mode.

    "Nothing sucks like a VAX" is a phrase from an advertisment for the VAX
    vacuum cleaner in the UK.
    
    BTW: They had the VAX name in the UK before we did,
    
    
    - Andy

I'd love to have a copy of one of their ad's posted outside my office here.

    
    re -.1
    
    you must have a PMAX, then...

    Digital is THE WORLD LEADER in networking and distributed systems.
    Let's behave that way.  Never argue opinions.  When quoting facts,
    refer the reader to the publicly-available source(s) from whence you
    are quoting your facts.  Speak only objectively.  Include the standard
    disclaimers.  Etc.
    
    If we can't act the part, we don't deserve the title.
    
      John

    The informal party line (as I understand it) here in ULTRIXland
    for many years has been to never respond to anything on USENET
    for 2 reasons:
    
    1.  exposure of the company and the individual (as cited in previous
    	responses to this note)
    2.  undercutting customer services which are paid for by providing
    	free "official" advice to those who often prefer not to pay.
    
    In my opinion, we can occasionally benefit from the plethora of
    free stuff on the net by pursuing certain clearly stated
    technical problems and suggestions.  Other than that, consider
    USENET to be another example of Sturgeon's Law:
    
    90% of everything is crud.
    
    John 

    Apart from a two week glitch around Christmas comp.windows.x has
    been archived since 16-JUN-1988 on BACK::comp-windows-x.
    
    Press Kp7
    
    Ian BACK::HAYCOX,

    
     Sadly for consistency, I would think DEC would apply the same restrictions
    (legal red-tape) on employee USENET participation as it does currently 
    does on employees talking to the press, writing articles for trade 
    publications, etc. 
    
     Be nice if a support group would monitor USENET, get answers from
    appropriate sources, and respond both internally (so the info is passed
    on) and to USENET ( though with a pen name, say Charlie Matco, no Mark
    Twain, Clint Eastwood?, Peter Hack?, no Dorothy Evelyn Clay, that's it , 
    good initials with a sound last name). So there would be an informed
    response from .../usr/dec or .../usr/dorothy without reference to
    Digital Equipment Corp. 
    
    my $0.02,
    clay

Peter Hack is a real person (who works for DEC).  I don't think he'd 
appreciate you using his name that way :-)

    Re .18: Odd! The Ultrix newsgroup is full of DECcie contributions. As I
    recall, the moderator (Art Zemon) works for DEC.

Re: .19

>    Apart from a two week glitch around Christmas comp.windows.x has
>    been archived since 16-JUN-1988 on BACK::comp-windows-x.

I get "object unknown at remote node" trying to access this conference.

jb