Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Oooh, etiquette question!  Where's my Miss Manners?
    
    The big question is whether they are in a "committed" relationship. 
    Spouse and fiance are definitely committed.  I think living together
    would count as committed.  Seeing each other doesn't count.
    
    If there is a committed relationship, the partner should be included as
    a matter of etiquette.  Otherwise, the partner can be included if the 
    hosts decide that people can bring dates.  If dates aren't allowed, the
    uncommitted partner has no "right" to attend.
    
    This question usually comes up at weddings, where everyone is ready to
    fight over every little nitpicky point.

    After only a year, it's probably way too soon.  Also, to me it would
    make a big difference whether they were divorced or just separated.
    
    Children of the original marriage will find it a strain after 10 years.

    
    >My question is is there some kind of etiquette where you don't bring
    >the girlfriend along or would you say he just doesn't want her to be a
    >"real" part of his life
    
    It may not be a matter of etiquette, but I wouldn't conclude that he
    doesn't want her to be a real part of his life.  It's possible that
    his family (for any number of reasons) may disapprove of him bringing
    her along.  So he may be avoiding family conflict by not bringing her.
    And I'm sure there could be other explanations as well.
    
    >I think she should be going with him to these things  - she
    >doesn't have to go to all of them but she doesn't listen
    >to me.  What do you think?
    
    I think what you mean is that she doesn't *agree* with you. (It's
    just one of my pet peeves, but I hate it when someone accuses me
    of not listening, when I disagree with or choose not to follow
    their advice.)  I think its good for you to offer her your advice,
    but its her call.
    
    Mary

If the man is "separated" as opposed to "divorced," he is still legally
*married* to his separated wife.  He is not legally free to form a
committed, marriage-type relationship with another woman because the
implication of separation is that there is a chance for rapprochement.

It seems to me that it could be a serious shot in the teeth to his legal
family and friends to see him show up at functions with a woman.  "Hey,
folks, I'm still married, but here's my future wife all shiny and ready
to drop into place after I get unhitched."

Tacky, tacky...

-d

You asked what we think. My opinion is that your sister needs to
live her own life and make her own path with her sweetie. It's quite 
possible that what makes her happy is different from what makes you 
happy and only she can judge that for her own life. I'm willing to 
bet that the best thing you can do is give your sister lots of love
and good wishes.


Liz

    
    I strongly agree with Liz.  You've told her what you think,
    now let her decide.  She's a "big girl" now.  Why does this
    worry *you* so much, anyway?  It's *her* life!  Let me make a
    wild-ass guess - you're her *older* sister!
    
    I'll suggest that maybe she doesn't want to go to these things.
    My husband *really* doesn't like family functions (his own
    family as well as mine).  He likes people in ones and twos,
    mainly.  With my family, it's always a big party.  He comes
    sometimes because he knows he has to to maintain domestic
    harmony.  Other times, I go by myself which is fine.
    

    This is an anonymous reply from the author of the basenote.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    To clarify a little ...
    
    They have been seeing each other exclusivey for over 1 year.  They
    were friends for a long time before that.  He is constantly going
    to all these family things and when the holidays come, she is left
    out in the cold.  My understanding is it is his choice as I have
    talked to several of his relatives who asked me why he never brings her
    to anything.    On Labor Day it was "I have a cookout to go to
    with all the family and relatives and I'll stop by later tonight"
    
    His 2 children are over 18 and he has been separated for 3 1/2 years.
    She is very upset about this and feels all kinds of things like
    maybe he is ashamed of her (thats what sets me off).  I think
    its unfair to her. 
    
    The first few notes seemed to say that she should'nt expect to take 
    part in anything.
    
    I honestly cant belive that when Christmas comes around and he goes
    over to drop off his gifts with his family and they ask him if he
    would like to stay for a short time for a little Christmas cheer
    that he would not be able to stay because he has my sister waiting
    out in the car.
    

    I think the issue is between your sister and her SO.  If it's bothering
    her that she's not invited to family functions he attends she should talk
    to her SO about it.  If her SO has an understanding with his family that
    he won't bring any new partner to family functions, he should communicate
    that to your sister (especially if she asks why she's not invited!).  
    
    I feel when any commitment-based relationship ends that it's up to the
    people directly involved to set their own definition of what's "right"
    (and that definition can change with time).  I don't think this guy
    should sign up for never being able to bring a new partner to a family
    function, but if the wound is still new for him, or if he still has hope
    of reconciling with his wife, I can understand why he's not ready to
    introduce a new partner.
    
    -Janice

    I can relate to this situation.
    
    I lived with my husband for quite a while before we married earlier
    this year.
    
    His children found it difficult to accept me as his partner (I think
    they always hoped he and mother would get back together again). 
    Anyway, when they visited, I always went out for the day.  It was what
    he and they wanted - not me.  After a while I thought "to hell with
    this" this is my home, they come, they take me.  The first time they
    arrived they were a little taken aback, but didn't make a fuss and now,
    a few years later, we're all good friends.  They didn't like me because
    they didn't know me.  I'm now even nanny to one of the daughers babies!
    
    His ex-wife went mad when she knew I'd been were her children - but she
    had to get used to the idea.
    
    If your sister's happy not to go fine, but if she wants to be a bigger
    part in his life it looks like she'll have to make a stand.   Do they
    live together?  Why isn't he getting a divorce?  I suppose the answer
    to those questions could affect this situation.  But, its HER problem
    and she'll have to work it out - just be there if she needs you

    Separated - No, she shouldn't go...
    
    Divorced -  She should go...and be invited
    
    HRH

    Well, *I* was separated for a long time.  During that time I lived with
    someone; he was invited to *every* family outing, or I didn't go.  Now
    I am living with someone else, and *he* is invited.  Of course, there's
    not much of a family to have outings with anymore, but that's a
    different story.  
    
    Now, of course, I am waiting for my divorce to be finalized.  So I
    guess I am still separated.  
    
    E Grace, the hug denying floozy

    
    re .4
    
    -d, surely the important thing is the status of the relationship
    between the seperated couple, rather than the legal position. I met
    Steve (who is now my husband) when he was seperated from his wife & had
    been for 1-2 years (I can't remember exactly how long it is, which
    actually shows the lack of importance that I place on it). But although
    he was legally married, he had been living alone in his own flat for
    over a year, had dated one or two other women - I certainly never felt
    I was going out with a *married* man. I can't remember when I started
    going along to family dos etc - but it all seemed perfectly natural as
    far as I can remember.
    
    re. the basenoters notes - I think it really depends on how the people
    concerned feel & what is important to them. If your sister is not happy
    with the situation then that is a problem & I guess I would encourage
    her to try & do something about it, but it is her decision. If she
    doesn't mind, I don't think it's a problem.
    
    Sarah. 
                                               

    E.  Hug-denying? Yes. floozy?  Never.
    
    Glad you put that .02 in.  I have been separated for 2 years; I have 
    dated since 6 mos after separation.  I can't afford the lousy $700.
    retainer a lawyer wants yet.  That's not gonna stop me from dating,
    and if that someone special comes along (and i think he has arrived)
    he's going to all family outings, birthdays, parties, Holidays. 
    
    Kim

    Thanks for the additional info, anon.
    
    If your sister isn't happy with the way things are, she needs to change
    them.  The thing she needs to keep in mind is she can't control the
    behavior of her SO.  She can accept things the way they are, work with
    him to see if he wants to change them, or move on.  (If it were me, and
    he wouldn't change the way things are, I'd move on.)
    
    No one can control any one else's feelings or behavior.  Can you tell
    I've been doing a lot of reading/development with co-dependency issues
    lately?  ;-)                                                
    
    -Janice

    Re: .7
    
    >The first few notes seemed to say that she should'nt expect to take 
    >part in anything.
    
    Well, that's not what I meant.  There's no etiquette law that says she
    _has_ to be invited.  However, there's also no etiquette law that says
    she _has_ to be excluded.  If it's okay with his family, then there
    shouldn't be any etiquette problem in him bringing her along.

    >She is very upset about this and feels all kinds of things like
    >maybe he is ashamed of her (thats what sets me off).
    
    Anon,
    
    Thanks for clarifying in .7   When I read .0 I didn't get any
    indication of your *sister* being upset - just that *you* were upset.
    
    Since your sister is upset by it, I think your sister would feel
    better if she talked with him about her feelings.  It's causing some
    conflict in their relationship and they need to reslove it.  Every
    relationship has to develop some method of resolving conflicts or
    it won't last.  Avoiding the issue won't make it go away.
    
    Of course your sister may choose not to do anything about it, in which
    case there's nothing you can do except give her your love and support.
    
    Mary

I know *I* would feel left out and undervalued. Is he ashamed of her or what?
I've been dating my SO for 5 months now. I've met his parents, his kids and
his ex. On Sunday we were at a wedding with his ex and her new husband. But we
got a lot of strange looks as his youngest son went back and forth between the
two couples talking to mommy in one and daddy in the other. He also proudly
announced to those who were listening that his mommy and daddy weren't married
to each other. Ah, the new social order. :*) liesl