Conference turris::womannotes-v3

re: .0
    
>moment that every adult, male or female, has a career if s/he wants it.
>What then happens to our culture?  Will the daycare system, precarious
>at best even today, collapse under the sheer enormity of its task?  Will
>the volunteers, mostly but not all mothers, who share so much of their
>time and talents helping to educate our children and to care for our
>ill and elderly, simply disappear?  Will the people who opt not to have
>a career get stigmatized as worthess (which I see happening today)?
    
    What's wrong with a career in daycare?  Professional daycare people
    could be trained and prepared in the dynamics and growth of children. 
    And even if everyone can choose a career, some may choose NOT to choose
    a career.
    
>Does their traditional network of stay-at-home colleagues vanish, taking
>with it a large part of the culture on which family life is based?  What
>happens to all of these essential elements of our society?
    
    I wouldn't mind seeing the "culture" accept a different version of the
    nuclear family.  If these essential elements (which primarily consist
    of woman-at-home, man-at-work) disappeared I wouldn't be displeased. 
    Replace it with shared parenting and responsible career (benefits, good
    pay) childcare professionals, and I think you have yourself a deal.

    I spent 8 years working part-time at a daycare center and it can be a
    wonderful career, except the pay isn't good enough now, and the
    benefits aren't great either in many places.  Also, people who choose
    to do daycare as a career can have their children attend the daycare
    free (or cheap).  Such a deal.
    
    -Jody

    Re .0:
    Go backwards and you can find some clear sources for the future.
    
    Check out the Spartans.  
    Read a little on Plato's ideal society.   However, wherever he mentions
    women, make sure you give them equal status.  If you take out some
    of the woman as breeder imagery I think you will have it.
    
    Let the teachers be the gold class.  Include daycare teachers in
    that class.
    
    Cindi
    

    I didn't "choose" a career/work.  I have no other choice.  I would
    love to be a housewife and mother, but alas, am not.  I'm sure that
    there will always be some women, who given an option, will remain
    home.  
    
    I know that if I was married and had to work, I would not have 
    children.  I hate the thought of strangers bringing up my children.
    
    Linda
    

    I wonder where the thought came from that most volunteer work is done
    by non-career-oriented people?  Most of the volunteer workers I know
    are very busy career people, who volunteer some percentage of their
    free time to help other people and organizations that they believe in,
    not non-working people.  And we are always being asked to do even
    more... I always figured that was following the old line about if you
    want something to really get done, ask a busy person to see to it!
    
    /Charlotte (who has a committee meeting tonight, will spend tomorrow
    night folding/stapling/mutilating newsletters, and Sunday afternoon
    moving furniture and setting up rented folding chairs and
    closed-circuit video at the synagogue in preparation for Rosh
    Hashanah)
            

    Actually, what you're describing isn't that different from my current
    neighborhood and life.
    
    Volunteer organizations are finding that they have to restructure the
    times when they make work opportunities available, so that folks with
    full-time jobs can fit the volunteer work they want to do into their
    schedules.  People at home (of both sexes) with small children find
    that they must work harder at finding others like them, and the result
    is organized play groups instead of kids roaming the neighborhood. 
    Schools are discovering and meeting a need for more organized after
    school activities for children whose parents are still working when the
    nominal school day is over.  Some of the expansion in the service
    sector of the economy is the result of formerly volunteer work becoming
    paid work.
    
    To me, the major difficulty is that we are still in a period of social
    transition.  We're learning how to deal with the consequences of
    expanded life/work style choices for women.  We're only just beginning
    to reach a point where it is "OK" for men to be the stay-at-home
    parent, or to earn less than the woman of the household.  We haven't
    sorted out the appropriate roles for government, the business sector,
    and the personal sector in resolving how to provide appropriate choices
    to a wider range of people and needs than in the past.  I'm confident
    that we will eventually get there, however.
    
    Alison

    I, too, think the suburban-housewife-volunteer-pillar-of-the-community
    thing is as much myth as reality.  In both small towns where I've owned
    a house, much of town govt (paid, a laughably small amount) is male,
    much of the membership of volunteer boards and orgs is male too.  They
    meet at night, usually.
    
    But I DO think that the base noter has a point, though not necessarily
    the one made.  With it taking 2 f-t incomes (often -- cookie, don't lecture
    me here!) to run and maintain a comfortable household, who's gonna
    bring the kids to the dentist, the dog to the vet, do the shopping,
    clean the bathrooms, mow the lawn, change the oil in the car, etc etc
    etc. 
    
    Yes, I know, we all manage to get a reasonable subset of the above
    done, often enough to keep the ball rolling.  But am I the only one who
    thinks this is a stressful schedule?
    
    My compromise solution has been to work part-time.  Great for family
    (but I still don't have enough time! ;-).  Not so hot for career.
    
    My humorous solution is Triples: the marriages of the future.  Two
    full-time incomes, one full-time home maker.  Gender mix and roles
    fully customizable.
    
    (humorous, because I really think humans are tied to pair-bonding.  In
    general.)
    
    Sara

    Re .6: The traditional way to handle this was to have lots of people in
    the household - not necessarily all married to each other. ;-) Whether
    you do it by maintaining multi-generational households, or by taking in
    boarders who will be willing to do a few errands, or by hiring someone
    to look after the house and children while the householders go out to
    work, I do believe it's all been done before...
    
    Unfortunately, there are a few roadblocks to get around, such as the
    low status and pay for child- and house-care jobs, and the risks of
    bringing strangers to live in your house, and the "American Dream"
    culture's emphasis on a single-family house with no spare relatives in
    it.
    
    Things will change, of course, as the needs grow; I just hope it can
    happen in a reasonable manner and not wind up being another crisis/
    catastrophe that the government has to step in and "fix".
    
    -b

    yes, it does kind of make you appreciate (certain aspects of) the
    Waltons.

    It doesn't have to be multi-generational for a household to work. The
    now reasonably common au pair is a fill in for Mom.  Most I know also
    take some care of the house and errands as well as the kids.  I just
    wonder if I can have one without kids!

    I was reading a marvelous book called the Midwife's Tale, a history of
    18th and early 19th C Maine based on the diaries of Hannah Ballard, a
    midwife/doctor/pharmacist/nurse/housewife/mother/etc...  Hannah had a
    full-time midwifery practice (delivering about 300 babies a year some
    years) as well as a husband with a full-time job and a number of
    children.  She often had a grown woman or a daughter or a niece living
    with her to take care of the day to day household tasks (which at that
    time were amazingly complex and physically taxing).

    The striking thing about the live in help though was the close quarters
    that all lived in.  The house was apparently quite well off for the
    times but space was limited and everyone did not have their own room. 
    Many folks slept in the kitchen and there was almost no privacy.  I
    cannot imagine living like that.

    Hannah's husband, Ephraim Ballard also had male helpers but they did
    not live with the couple. Clearly, housework was the most time
    consuming of all labors and necessitated full-time live in attention.

    As for me, I am looking for some cleaning help.  Anyone know a good
    reliable person in the Lexington MA area?  Right now I feel I can earn
    a living and pay half the mortgage or I can keep up with the dust
    bunnies.  Doing both is impossible.  :^)

Room for a live-in isn't a problem for me.  My house has two servants'
rooms on the third floor.  Now if only I could *afford* to have such
a person...

BTW, to suggest that live-in help frees everyone to have a career isn't
valid.  What about the live-ins themselves, who are usually poorly
educated or in the country illegally or subject to some other limitation
that prevents them from having the rewarding careers they'd like.  I
just don't see scrubbing floors as anyone's lifework goal...

-d

    The glib response is that the live-in help has evenings free for
    studies and other betterment projects.
    
    One time there was a guy working in my father's store as a bookkeeper
    and ice cream packer.  He studied nights to become a C.P.A..  He
    succeeded, joined a big firm downtown, and only came back at Christmas
    to help pack ice cream.  :-)
    
    						Ann B.

    My SO and I will soon be looking for at least a part time maid to
    deal with the new (and much larger) house we're moving into.  The
    kids are very responsible and have choirs, but we just can't see
    spending our week-ends doing the big jobs...waxing the floors, washing
    the windows, etc.
    
    We have to take turns taking time off to get them to dentist appts and
    all the other things that require our presence. Of coarse, this means
    we can't take a real vacation because neither of us has time on the
    books to do it.
    
    We are lucky in many respects though.  I am likely to inherit a couple
    of pieces of real estate in the near future (not happy about the cause
    for inheriting of coarse) which I will be able to rent out.  When this
    happens I will likely quit my job and become a Mom full time.  I'd
    really like to be able to go to the kids school and be a teachers
    helper.  I think it's important to take an active part in their
    education if it's possible financially.
    
    
    
                                     L.J.

    
    re .6 
    
    I'm all for Triples ! I've often joked that Steve & I should find a
    "wife" - who can do all the cooking, cleaning, odd jobs etc. I'm not
    surprised that some men are keen on it when you think about it !....
    
    Seriously though, I hope that as more women have a career, things will
    become more flexible for *both* men and women. I've just received a
    leaflet saying how digital's introducing 5 days paid paternity leave in
    the UK - it's a step in the right direction. And career breaks, from 3
    months - 3 years which can be taken by men or women. There's so many
    things that are (unfortunately very slowly) starting to happen, such as
    flexible working from home etc. And yes, the other thing that helps is
    having other people help out. Steve & I have a lady who comes to do our
    ironing & basic cleaning each week. I don't feel she's hard done by,
    she only wants to work part time & likes cleaning as it's something she
    can fit into her day when she chooses - she has our key & lets herself
    in. She's now a good friend and is really helpful at doing other
    favours for us like letting the gas man in, feeding the cat's when
    we're away & so on.
    
    If I had kids, I'd probably have a nanny & carry on working. I have a
    friend who's a nanny & well qualified as such, she has enjoyed her job
    & is better paid than she would be in another job as she doesn't really
    have many other qualifications, also she's dyslexic & her handwriting
    is terrible - she just wouldn't be suited to working in an office.
    
    Or at least I'd work part time, I definitely couldn't be a full time
    mum/housewife - I'd go spare & that wouldn't do my kids any good. 
    
    I reckon that things have got to change, at the moment we're half way &
    the idea of "career" is sometimes based on the old male orientated sell
    your soul to the company type approach. Yes, I'm sure there will always
    be people who want that, but I'm sure there's a lot of others that
    would like a more flexible approach for both men and women. 
    
    Here's to a more flexible future ! 
    
    Sarah.

    I don't think paid household help is necessarily a dead end position.
    The au pairs I've known were foreign college kids taking a year or so
    off.  For one year they would nanny, for the next many months they
    would sight see on the money they'd earned and saved.
    
    Others I've known lived here, saved the money and gone home to purchase
    real estate or a business.  Not bad, and quite possible considering pay
    scale variations from country to country.
    
    Other household help (the hourly kind who come weekly or so) can pay
    quite well and provide a nice living. And there is nothing wrong with
    cleaning houses for a living, to think so is prejudiced and devaluing.
    (Obligatory IMHO here provided.)  I knew a woman who was a certified
    teacher who, when single motherhood became her lot through divorce, could
    not support the kids on the child support and teacher's salary.  So she
    started a cleaning business and does quite well, thank you. 
    Unfortunately, she lives too far away to help me.
    
    Yes, I can see how cleaning can be a dead end job, so can many jobs.
    But that is no reason to do without household help.
    
    BTW, the historical woman I mentioned (Hannah Ballard) had many women
    helpers through the years.  Some were widows, some unwed mothers, some
    young women who went into service to earn money and learn skills before
    they were wed, others were married women who lived with the Ballard
    family to earn money.  For almost all of them, being household help was
    a steppping stone to other things, often to become mistress of their
    own homes, which was as close to independence as women got those days.
    
      Margaret

I have to admit kind of missing the "extended family" living 
arrangements we had when I was kid.

When I was very young, one grandmother lived very nearby and came 
over almost everyday just to give my mother a rest from two small 
children. She'd play with us or just watch us while we played, 
and my mother would take a nap, go shopping, or maybe just get 
some *distance* from us ;) Later on, she used that time to do 
volunteer work at our school, which eventually qualified her for 
a second career, which she pursued full-time once my brother and 
I reached junior high age. She retired from that career having 
gone from running a small school library to acollection at Yale 
University's rare book library.

When my grandmother got too old to help, she used money she had 
saved to hire a "companion", a woman who was a few years younger, 
and still very active. Fanny was more than a maid and cook, she 
was more like a freind who got a small salary in addition to 
living in my grandmother's apartment. She was also a lot of fun, 
and I remember her as a kind of surrogate aunt -- she joined the 
family for Christmas and Thanksgiving, and got a small 
inheritance when my grandmother died.

When my mother went to work, we hired a cleaning woman who came 
in once a week. She was paid enough by us and her other clients to 
maintain her own modest home, and she seemed anyway to live 
fairly well. She also took considerable pride in her work, and 
thought nothing of yelling at me if I messed up soemthing she had 
cleaned. She had a nephew who lived with her on and off, and she 
used to bring him with her sometimes, and I used to kind of 
babysit him, playing games and things while she worked.

On the whole, all these people enriched our lives by bringing a 
variety into them that wasn't there with just the nuclear family. 
They also gave my parents a rest, and time to pursue things that 
kept their lives richer as well. I think my grandmother's 
companion certainly had a very mutual relationship with her, 
equals and friends as much as employer and employee. And our 
cleaning woman was a very independent person who was proud of 
making a living for herself and her family. I see some of the 
frazzled nuclear families around me, and wonder how much the 
vaunted single-family home has brought to their lives in terms 
of real satisfaction.

--Lil

>    & is better paid than she would be in another job as she doesn't really
>    have many other qualifications, 

	Not having many qualifications does NOT mean not being able to do
	many jobs or careers.

>   also she's dyslexic & her handwriting
>    is terrible - she just wouldn't be suited to working in an office.

	Being dyslexic myself with poor handwriting, and having worked in an 
	office environment for 19 years, I can tell you the this is NOT
	a handicap. Neither is it a handicap for my brother who did 4 years
	mental nurse training, and the yearly exams he had to sit, or my other 
	brother and father who did 5 year aprenticeships, and work with figures.

	It is only a handicap if you focus on the problem, and not the 
	solutions. 
    
>    Here's to a more flexible future ! 
    
	hear hear

	Heather

    
    re .16
    
    I didn't mean that being dyslexic prevents you from doing office type
    work, it's just in my friend's case she's not a very 'academic' type of
    person, & is happier doing practical things - I can't imagine *her*
    working in an office, sorry I should have made that clear.
    
    (a bit of a rathole here...)
    As for lack of qualifications hmm, well, she's actually at the stage
    where she would like to do something different than nannying but
    doesn't know what. I guess the problem is she wants a job that doesn't
    involve working weekends or evenings, & pays reasonably well too. As
    she can earn upwards of �120 p/w living in (so no rent costs, & some
    food provided) she can't think of anything else that she could do. If
    you have any suggestions, please feel free to let me know, she's
    actually feeling pretty down at the moment cos she's between jobs &
    can't get another that's right for her in our area - I think she would
    really like to do something different for a while but just can't think
    what.
    
    
    Sarah.

	There are some schemes now where you can be a teachers helper, and
	work your way to being a teacher through day release. I didn't pay
	any attention at the time to more details.

	There are aprenticeships in glazing/carpentry/plumming..... you earn 
	a reasonable amount for the first year, after that it increases very 
	quickly to full-time rate.

	Why not think of going into business with people who already have the
	training to be a teacher, and some basic first-aid, and set up a
	nursery business (one of my friends has done just this)

	Look around the area you live and form a co-operative of people with
	different skills, and market yourself as this. My sister has started
	this up with a group of people.

	She enjoys gardening and cooking, so will run that part of the co-
	operative (it will also ensure she can still look afetr her children 
	aged 5 and 3). There is someone who is a registered child minder and 
	will manage that part........, another who has pc's , and photocopying 
	equipment. They have approximately 40 people who will start to work
	in this, and as it grows, they can also grow their own skills, as well
	as earning a reasonable wage.
	They have more people interested and thinking about joining all the 
	time.

	There are many courses listed int he local rags for classes that
	could help in other areas, such as WP awaremness, photography,
	animal care............
	
	One of my neighbours decided she wanted to work in bio-chemistry,
	however, she left school at 15 with no qualifications to look after
	her younger brothers and sisters. She married young and had two 
	children early in the marriage.
	Before they went to school she started to take on Open University course
	in something I've forgotten, but science based.
	She then got a part time job in the path labs developing cultures, and 
	has worked up to full time, and shortly she is to qualify.

	One thing I loked into when leaving school was marine biology, they 
	would take you without qualifications and train you up - deffinately NOT
	an office job.

	The possibilities are great.

	Heather

	

My wife runs the volunteer program for a school district. Many of the 
volunteers, most of whom are unemployed mothers, have applied for and received
college credit for their volunteer work. 

Several have later told my wife that their volunteer experiences and resultant
college credit was a crucial factor that helped them get a paying job. Others
said that it gave them the confidence to finish their college degree.

Bruce

    That's great, Bruce!!  What a win-win situation!
    
    It's amazing how giving time can help so many people.  My husband
    spends one night a week teaching adults how to read.  It's really been
    an amazing experience for him.  I remember when hubby came home totally
    shocked because the man he was teaching to read was terrified of his
    new job at a local pizza place -- the man couldn't read the menu, and
    he was so scared about not being able to write up the orders for the
    cooks.  The experience of teaching was good for the man learning
    because he soon realized he *could* do the job, and it was good for my
    husband because teaching the man to read was so very rewarding.  It
    boosted everyone's self-confidence.      
    
    -Janice

	I have been looking the papers for non-office jobs, non-qualification
	jobs.

	There are quite a fwe that expect some evening or weekend work.

	There are a great deal in sales of one srot or another.

	This is one that might be interesting:


	Lung Function Lab Technician

	8,175-9562 pounds pa

	You will have full responsibility for the day-to-day management of
	the laboratory and may adopt a flexible timetable of 32 hours/week

	The laboratory carries out varied measurements on the working of 
	patients lungs and is a vital and integral part of the Depatrment of
	respiratory Medicine. There is a well appointed suite comprising
	reception/office and laboratory with fully computerised measurement
	and recording systems.
	NO PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE is necessary as TRAINING IS AVAILABLE IN POST.
	The post offers the variety of one-to-one contact with patients,
	thechnical aspects of lung function measurement and a high degree of 
	independence coupled with close liaison with medical,nursing and
	secretarial staff. Please quote reference PTB0143

	Application forms and further details for above post are available 
	from the personnel department, Battle hospital,oxford road,Reading 
	RG3 1AG
	
	closing date for post 20th Sept 1991.


	Heather

    Heather, do you sincerely believe that if a person who looks like Nigel
    Kennedy -- or worse -- walked in to apply for that laboratory position,
    he or she would be given the job out of hand?  I don't.  No prior
    experience IN THAT JOB is required, but you can bet that a person who
    could show no experience in some sort of responsible position would not
    be considered.  This is *not* a non-qualification position.
    
    You can't get a job if you don't have a job history.  It is Catch-22.
    
    -d

>    Heather, do you sincerely believe that if a person who looks like Nigel
>    Kennedy -- or worse -- walked in to apply for that laboratory position,
>    he or she would be given the job out of hand?  I don't.  No prior
>    experience IN THAT JOB is required, but you can bet that a person who
>    could show no experience in some sort of responsible position would not
>    be considered.  This is *not* a non-qualification position.
    
>    You can't get a job if you don't have a job history.  It is Catch-22.
 
	How do you think anyone gets a job?

	How do you think I got a job in computing straight from school without
	a degree?
	How do you think my mother got a job in nursing without qualifications?
	afetr 20 years of bringing us up?
	How do you think my sister-in-law got a part-time job as an auxhilliary
	in a hospital with zero job experience and qualifications (and has 
	since obtained qualifications as a community state enrolled nurse?). 
	How do you think my brother got a job as an apprentice glazer after 
	playing truant for the complete last year of school, with zero 
	qualifications and an appauling report?
	How do you think my sister has helped start a co-operative with only
	one years experience on a checkout 23 years ago?
	How do you think my neighbour got her job in the path labs after 
	leaving school at 15 to bring up her brothers and sisters, and
	going straight into a marriage and having children early on?

	If you convince yourself that something is hopeless, then you will 
	probably be hopeless at it.

	If you decide you really want something, and go for it, you'll 
	probably get it.

	Heather	

re .-1,

>	If you convince yourself that something is hopeless, then you will 
>	probably be hopeless at it.
>
>	If you decide you really want something, and go for it, you'll 
>	probably get it.

	Wow, you could say that again!

	Dan

    re: .9 &.14
    
    Small nit--it's *Martha* Ballard, not Hannah.  And you're absolutely
    right, it is a marvelous book.  The author took a set of terse, almost
    cryptic (well, to me at least) diary entries and created a fascinating
    picture of everyday life in 18th & 19th century rural Maine.  A
    must-read!
    
    _A Midwife's Tale: The Life of Martha Ballard Based on Her Diaries_
    by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich.
    
    Sue

    RE: .25

    Blush.  Especially since there was some historical confusion about her
    name, as noted somewhere in the book.

    I understand the entries become less cryptic when the entire diaries
    are read and reread and reread along with contemporaneous materials.
    Remember, Ulrich had a *lot* of source material in addition to the
    diaries.

      Margaret (I am so embarrassed I got Martha's name wrong)

    re: .26  
    
    Aw, didn't mean to make you blush.  Just wanted to make sure that
    anyone else who was intrigued had access to this wonderful book, too. 
    
    I am always glad for the opportunity to learn about times past from a
    woman's perspective and experience.  "Herstory" is so different from
    "history"...
    
    Sue