Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Dear Anon,

Sounds like a hard and confusing time for you.  One idea would be too
get some distance from both people and figure out what you really want
and need...

Hope it all works out...

Don't forget to take care of yourself...

peace
john

    Tender caring for someone can be easily confused with love.  Love and
    pasion goes together, and I doubt that you could feel it for both at
    the same time! It must be hard for you to identify your feelings, hence
    the need for some space from both, time cures a lot of wounds, be
    honest with yourself, identify the rightful person, and so some soul
    searching... I am sure you will get a TRUTHFUL answer from deep within
    yourself, then... follow and be firm to your feelings! the right
    decision might hurt but it has to be done. (I could never take a
    deceiver, and we should never purposedly DECEIVE anyone)
    Lots of luck!  Ana
    

    Why is it never possible to love, and be loved by, two people at once?
    I know, our society does not approve, but, I keep thinking, it would
    sure be nice, efficient, supportive, and wonderful if it was possible
    to have more than two adults living, working and cooperating in one
    home.  It bothers me that it is either/or.  
    
    six will get you ten, I've deviated from the intent of .0 
    
    8-)
    jimc
    

re: .3

It's not impossible.  I think, however, given human nature it is fraught
with possibilities for anger, hurt, slight, backbiting, and so on.  "But
I wanted to make love with you last night, and you made love with Robin.
What does Robin have that I don't, or is just that you don't love me as
much as Robin?"  And on and on...

Finding a plurality of people who all cared mutually for each other and
not for some subset of the others is, to my mind, the greatest challenge
to such an arrangement.

-d

    Here is a reply from the basenoter.  Yes, I did stuff to the spacing
    and typos again.
    
    						Ann B.
    						comod
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks for your replies, Ana and John.  It's a help to get some thoughts
    from someone who's not involved.
    
    Now I am feeling a bit braver, perhaps if I explain the background a
    bit more it will explain why I feel so confused.
    
    I am currently 28 -- I met Tom (Not his real name, but it sounds better
    than saying <X> and <Y>!) about six years ago.  We'd been going out for
    5 1/2 years, moved in together over three years ago, and last year we
    got married.  We have been very happy.  It was me that proposed to him
    (!); I've always been very sure that he was right for me.  I've had one
    other serious boyfriend before and when I was at college, I had quite
    a few close menfriends (ratio of 5 men to 1 woman at my college -- quite
    good for the ego!).  We had a lovely wedding and I had no nerves
    whatsoever -- I knew that was what I wanted.
    
    A few months later I started work on a new project at work, working
    at a customer site.  I was working in a small team with someone whom
    I'll call Vince.  We got on very well with a good teasing type of
    relationship, lots of fun, arguments over design issues, etc.  I guess
    it was around Christmas that I became aware that I found him quite
    attractive, but I wasn't particularly worried about this 'cos I've
    been attracted to other people before and it's been sort of superficial
    -- it's just fizzled out after a while.  Anyway, around March, at a
    team meal out it became very obvious that the feeling was very
    mutual....  We discussed it the next day and I made it very clear I
    didn't want an affair or anything like that -- but was happy for us to
    be friends and go out for the odd drink, etc.  So we did.
    
    I guess what I hoped for was that the physical attraction would sort
    of die down and we'd become good friends.
    
    This all sounds terrible, doesn't it?  It sounds such a clich�, and
    it makes me sound so naive -- but I believe really strongly that it's
    not wrong to want men as friends.  Like I say, I have some really good
    friends from college and that's important to me.  I guess one of the
    things I enjoyed was making a new male friend, something I haven't done
    for quite a few years.
    
    And I wasn't dishonest about this -- I told Tom where I was going and
    who I was going with, and that I was attracted to this guy but didn't
    want to take it further.  I reckoned that if he was going to object
    I'd rather know about it first, not when he discovered after, and
    anyway, I'm too honest, I'd make a terrible liar.
    
    Maybe it sounds like I was being unfair to T, but I didn't think so.
    He was married before, and is still friends with his ex and sees her
    once a month or so.  I'm happy with that.  I felt a little bit
    threatened at first but it's never caused any hassle, and he has the
    right to his own friends, as I have.
    
    Anyway, about three months later, V and I have gotten to be quite
    close:  we've been out together regularly, and we're working together
    too.  He's really fallen for me, I've been trying really hard not to
    fall for him.  I tried to put the brakes on, but finally have to admit
    to him, yes, I love him.  But I love T too, I know I do!  All that long
    relationship and love we've had hasn't just gone overnight, it's still
    there underneath.

    Anyway, being a sensible sort of person (yeah, well, perhaps) I appreciate
    that I probably would recover.  Things got pretty intense in the last
    week of the project (No, nothing to do with the work, that was all under
    control.) but the time came, and V finished his contract and went back
    home.
    
    (I haven't said much about V's background, but he's also married, for two
    weeks less than me (It gets worse, doesn't it...) to someone who has
    been his only girlfriend for the last eight years.  He's never been
    involved or wanted to be, with anyone else since he met her.  He's
    younger than me and so has been going out with her since he was about
    17 or 18.  They live a very long way from the customer site where we
    were working, so he was staying in a hotel locally.  He hasn't told her
    anything about me.  Perhaps that's not what I'd do but I respect his
    right to do what he thinks is best for him and her.  (I must admit,
    if I were her I wouldn't want to be worried about a relationship when 
    we were apart.)  Anyway, the next few weeks were hell for both V and
    me.  We missed one another terribly after being so close.  At one
    stage I couldn't even bear to talk to him on the phone.
    
    Since then, things have improved.  It took a couple of months and then
    I started to feel better.  Tom and I had some talks together -- I had
    to tell him that I was missing Vince.  I felt so distant from T and
    I knew I wasn't going to get closer to him until we talked a bit.  It
    was painful but it helped.
    
    In the meantime Vince and I kept in touch; we wrote and phoned and that
    helped too.  I had a lot of feeling rushing around and writing helped
    to let some of it out.
    
    Eventually, we got to the stage where the strong feelings had calmed
    down, and it was good talking to one another.  It was like the friendship
    had re-emerged and wasn't getting swamped by the confusing feelings
    that the passion had aroused.
    
    Tom and I were getting on well too, I guess we've learned that we need
    to take care of our relationship a little more.  We've learned something
    from this.
    
    Last week Vince and I met up again, the first time in over two months.
    It was really good to see him again and we had a good evening together.
    But it was very obvious he still felt really strongly about me.  I
    guessed that I would feel confused afterwards again, but hoped it would
    be better than before.  But it hit me quite hard again.  All the doubt
    came back, as to what I should be doing, how I felt about them both,
    etc.
    
    So here I am again, a bit calmer now, but still feeling confused. 
    
    I do feel that I have a commitment to Tom to give our marriage the best
    chance it can to work.  I am aware that if I don't sort out my feelings
    for V this is going to screw things up between us.  I'm aware that this
    means either things between V and me have got to be stable, or else I'm
    going to have to stop seeing him completely.
    
    But I'm scared.  I'm scared that there is a strong, passionate feeling
    towards V inside of me and that it's not going to go away.  I'm scared
    that if I don't deal with what's going on inside of me now, it's going
    to reappear one day.  If it does come to me making a break from T, I'd
    rather it was sooner than later.  I would like to have children in a
    couple of years' time and I don't want to wait till then to decide that
    I want to live my life in a different way, or with a different man.
    
    I guess I believe that there isn't one Mr. Right for anyone.  I've only
    ever been in a similar situation once before (which wasn't half so
    serious).  I split up with one boyfriend to go out with another, then
    with the second as I realised I still missed the first.
    
    To be honest, I think I could be happy with either T or V.  Well, I
    was happy with T before.  Obviously, there's still a lot I don't know
    about V, but there's a lot I do.
    
    Good grief, I think the keyboard must be steaming by now!  It helps just
    to write all this down, although it's difficult too.  I keep seeing the
    obvious things that people will say, and keep wanting to explain.  I
    keep thinking that it sounds like I'm being really selfish and a
    horrible person.  But I don't believe that -- I may be stupid but I do
    try *damned* hard to get things right, and all I can say in my
    self-defense is that this is important to me.  I don't believe in God
    any more (Well, at least I'm not sure anymore.) but I do have a strong
    belief that I have to take responsibility for my life and do what's
    right for me, but at the same time to try not to hurt those around me.
    
    The last thing I want to say is that it might sound totally crazy for
    me to try to persevere with any sort of a relationship with V if I want
    my marriage to work, but like I say, I love the guy and if I can't be
    his lover, then I want to be his friend, so long as that's what he wants.
    Perhaps he can't handle that, and I'm very scared of hurting him too,
    but unless I can really see that I'm hurting him, I'll let him make
    the decision as to what's right for him, and I'll try and make my
    decisions as to what's right for me.
    
    In re John's suggestion that I need some space:  I came to this conclusion
    myself recently.  Obviously it's difficult because I'm living with T,
    but on Monday I decided I would have a weekend on my own!  I've arranged
    to stay with a girlfriend, whom I haven't seen for a while, on the
    Friday night, then on Saturday I'm going to stay at a hotel or something
    entirely on my own, perhaps do some walking and just do what I want
    all day.  I'm looking forward to it, I haven't done anything like that
    for ages.
    
    Right.  I'll go now and leave my poor battered keyboard in peace, my
    only plea is please don't judge V or me, we're only human, I know I'm
    trying to do my best, and I believe V is too.
    
    Thanks for your suggestions and good wishes.

    Wow...  Too much of what you said hit home with me.   
    
    Taking some time off by yourself is the right thing to do.  While you
    are off alone concentrate on feeling *your* feelings.  Don't think
    about all the other people involved until you understand what it is
    that *you* feel.  You are right in that if you don't deal with how you
    really feel that it will eventually come to the surface again.  Hiding
    from the truth never solves the problem -- it only puts it on hold for
    a while.
    
    Once you understand how you feel, then you need to work with the people
    you care about to help them understand how you feel.  You have to do
    what's right for *you*.  Doing what's right for others out of guilt or
    fear or whatever isn't going to make this situation "better".  Be sure
    and go for counseling -- it'll help you sort things out and give you
    some tools to make your implementation a little easier.  (Have you
    taked with V to tell him how you feel?  How has he responded?)
    
    (Jeez, I'm a fine one to *give* advice -- my life is a mess right now!
    If it would help you to talk with someone, you can contact me via
    mail.)
    
    -jc                                                           

    You said that you "could" be happy with V and T... well, you "already"
    have T.! he is your husband, the person YOU choose to share your life
    with, not just for a month, or a year, or till someone better appears
    into your life, but for ever.  A marriage is a sacrament, and it has to
    be treated as such, with lots of respect.  Concentrate now in your
    happines with your husband, learn to do and share things with him,
    allow time to quiet those feelings that you have for V... time will
    cure it!  I see that you are a very honest and sensible person, you
    deserve a stable and happy environment.
    Believe me... a happy marriage is a lot of work, it is not easy, and I
    have a feeling that you have to put some work to it right now...
    
    You are joung... forget V for a while... think of him as a nice dream
    that was good while lasted but it is just that, A DREAM... he has his
    wife, you have your husband, let's keep things straight.  At the moment
    you must forget about him, and in a few years he could start being your
    friend, but... for what purpose? to perpetuate a hurt?, honestly, you
    need to get away from him and develop new and "safe" friends. Forget V.
      
    You'll feel proud of yourself when all this turmoil has passed... your 
    marriage will be safe, (and you will too, when you see yourself on top of 
    your feelings instead of shattered by them...) 
    We are humans, and we have lots of feelings, but we must identify the
    wrong ones so we don't become victims of them... it hurts, I don't deny
    it, but in the long run we do AVOID havoc with our lives... and those
    close to us who become victims too, of our wrong decisions.
    
    Hang on there, you need time, you have a cool head, you will make the
    right decisions! Lots of luck! Ana
    

    
    	First, I'm really surprised that you and Tom talk about what you
    are doing.  How does he take it?  Hasn't he gone off the wall?  
    	Your lucky you don't have kids yet.  You need to make up your
    mind what you want.  You are the most important person.  Do what
    makes you happy but, you have to remember you are going to hurt 
    someone.  Don't drag the pain out for who ever it will be, if either.
    	Passion....I love it.  Its excieting and its scary at the same
    time.  Will it pass though.  Do you want your cake and eat it too?
    You can't have both.  At least not in the USA.  
    	Remember, devorce is a long drawn out thing...not fun, but if your
    not happy, its well worth it.  You have to deceide what is best for
    you.  You have a long life ahead of you.  
    	If you want this thing to end with 'V' you should probibly seak
    counceling.  I also went though something similar....and, got the
    devorce.  I'm lots happier now!
    
    	Hal

I don't think it was a good idea *at all* to tell T what was going on. What was
your point? Honesty, really? Or were you trying to hurt him or provoke a 
reaction? After all, if you tell him maybe he'll leave you and the problem is
solved.

You and V could break up two marriages for what is no more than lust and the
urge to try something forbidden and new. Divorce is devastating for all that
are involved, think about this hard. The new boy turns into the old boy after a
while,will you find the another one then? liesl

    Actually, I can understand what's going on here.  I've been there.  My
    take is that so far, none of your emotional feelings for V have been
    acted on, and you are trying to maintain a friendship which doesn't
    become sexual, in spite of physical attraction between you and V.
    
    Unfortunately, you're going to have to face the underlying assumptions
    of your marriage.  For most of us, that includes sexual exclusivity
    with our partner as one of the things which we expect in a marital
    relationship.  If that is one of the expectations in your marriage, I
    strongly encourage you to not see V alone again.  Don't go out for
    lunch, or drinks after work, or to get together for any social purpose. 
    It won't be easy, but it will say a *lot* about your commitment to your
    marriage.
    
    This isn't anything new, either.  My mother had a problem similar to
    this one with a man she had to see on a regular basis, during years
    when my father was out of town on business Monday through Friday.  Her
    solution was the one I outlined -- avoid seeing the man alone under any
    circumstances.  She and my dad stayed happily married for many years,
    until her death.  I'm convinced that part of the success of the
    marriage was based on that willingness to turn away from temptation and
    do the hard things that kept them faithful to each other.
    
    Alison

    I was in a very similiar situation quite a while ago.....Problem was, I
    acted on the impulse - My recommendation, don't do it!  It took a  long
    time to catch up with me, but people, myself included, got very very
    hurt, and in the end I ended up terminating the friendship because it
    got very abusive when I said no more.
    
    I had had a very flirtatious relationship with this man for some time,
    we got along better than anyone I had ever known and shared many of the
    same interests and same warped sense of humor.  It seemed like we were
    soul mates!  Once we acted on the "shared passion" and then went back
    to just a very good friendship.  But, then a while later I was having
    trouble in my marriage (my husband hadn't known at the time, but he
    found out during the fight I was having with my friend, which made
    those matters much worse), this "friend" first said something along the
    lines of "gee, I'm having trouble with mine, and you're having trouble
    with yours.....Maybe we should try again".....Well, being confused as I
    was at the time, the *last* thing I needed to do was muddy the waters
    with *another* relationship!  When I communicated this, this "friend"
    who had always said no matter what, he would stick by me, started
    sending me *all* manner of nasty mail over the net, along the lines of
    how dare I spurn him!  I ended up breaking the friendship forever, and
    I do mean forever!  I felt so used at that point, and I have never
    forgiven him, nor will I.  I had such trust in this person and it was
    betrayed *big* time.
    
    Bottom line:  It may seem *so* right today.....Tomorrow can be a long
    way off, but payback is a bear!  I would never even consider this type
    of thing again, no matter *how* "right" it seemed.  Too many people can
    be hurt, and you are likely to be one of them!  And the other thing to
    consider is:  just what makes you think V would even consider *leaving*
    his current wife for you should the issue come up?  Most people don't
    think it that far through and most would not leave.  If you are really
    considering this, please re-read all I've written and give it a *lot*
    of careful, considered thought.
    
    My thoughts are with you - Many hugs, I know this is a difficult time
    for you, please just beware (beware the woods my friend, there may be
    tigers....)
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA

    When you take the time for yourself this weekend be sure to bring some
    books (and books on tape) with you.  This time alone is good for you,
    and the perfect opportunity to introduce some new ways of thinking and
    understanding what's happening to you.  Getting input from good friends
    and from books will help you to see things you are currently unaware
    of.
    
    Books I recommend include:
    
      _Co-Dependant_No_More_
      _The_Struggle_for_Intimacy_
      _Is_it_Love_or_Addiction_
      _Obsessive_Love_
    
    (Sorry, I don't know the author's names offhand...)  If you are from
    the Nashua area, there is a *fabulous* bookstore that specializes in
    self-help reading material.
    
    The noter in 982.11 is *so* right!  Everyone gets hurt in a situation
    like yours, and the person that is going to be hurt the most could very
    well be you.  :-(  The problems and emotions you are feeling are going
    to take time to understand, and more time to put into prospective.  I'm
    learning the only magic thing is time.
    
    Be sure and bring some tools to work with this weekend!  Good luck, and 
    let us know how you are on Monday.  :-)
    
    -jc            
                                          

    The following is a reply from the basenoter.  It was sent to me on
    the 23rd, so please read it from that perspective.
    
    						Ann B.
    						comod
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Thanks all, for your thoughts and suggestions.  It's great to hear
    from a mixture of people -- I have talked to one or two close friends
    but the problem is that everyone's suggestions are based on what they
    would do, and one thing I do know is that I have to do what's right
    for me, 'cos I'm the only one that can defend my actions at the end
    of the day.  Hearing from a variety of different people helps as it
    gives me a number of different viewpoints to consider.  It also helps
    to hear from people who have experienced something similar; most of
    my friends are about my age and quite a few are recently/just about
    to be married.  I would guess that most of them would think it won't
    ever happen to them, so it's difficult for me to explain how I feel
    without having to defend myself.
    
    re .7:  Ana, a lot of what you say makes sense to me.  I guess I'm a
    bit confused about what I think about marriage.  Yes, I do feel that
    I have a commitment to Tom.  (Anyway, that's how I felt before.)  I feel
    that getting married was making a public affirmation of a private
    commitment that I already felt.  But I guess I want to be sure that I'm
    staying with Tom 'cos it's right, and not just because I said I would.
    (Having said that, I do feel I should give it a damned good go, and
    not just give up at the first hurdle.)  But also, I don't believe in
    God and I don't believe in rewards in heaven.  I do believe you make
    your own happiness here.  Which is what you're sayin, isn't it?

    re .9:  Liesl,
    The first time I said anything to Tom was, yes, to be honest with him.
    I know it might seem strange and I know a lot of other people wouldn't
    have, but I guess it depends on the people involved.  We have a close
    relationship and we are pretty honest with one another.  I guess at
    the outset I also thought I was going to be less likely to be tempted
    to do something that I shouldn't if I was honest from the start.  And,
    no, he didn't go off the wall, if I thought he would have, I guess I
    wouldn't have told him.  When I talked to him later and told him a
    bit about how I felt about V, it was 'cos I felt a million miles away
    from him and I knew I wasn't going to get any closer till we talked
    again.  And no, liesl, I'm not totally irresponsible, and I am aware
    that what is new is often very attractive because it's new, and it's
    not just lust, there's a strong friendship there.
    
    re .10:  Alison, you have a pretty good understanding of what's going
    on.  I know one option is to not see V again at all.  I guess it's just
    that I don't want to lose that friendship unless I really have to.  Maybe
    it will come to that.
    
    re. .11:  I'm sorry to hear that in your situation that the friendship
    turned bad.  But I guess there's always that risk in friendships or
    love affairs.  Some of my old relationships ended as friendships, some
    just ended with too much hurt ever to be friends again.
    
    re .12:  Thanks for your reading suggestions!  It's not actually this
    weekend I'm going away, it's the next.  I booked somewhere to stay on
    the Saturday night this morning.  I'm really looking forward to it!
    
    It may seem strange, but a lot of good things have come out of all this
    as well as bad.  It's shaken me up, and disturbed me, but if you never
    know conflict, then you don't grow, do you?  One thing that I've realised
    over the last couple of days is that I need some time to myself, and to
    do things with different friends and people, not just to resolve this
    problem, but to keep growing as a person.  I don't think I'm going to
    solve this problem by telling V to go away and burying my head in the
    sand but by learning from it.
    
    Thanks again.

    I was in the Situation of "V" once in a relationship with a man
    who had a girlfriend (she lived with him). I ended up getting hurt
    a lot (the most I've ever been hurt). My opinion is to either stop
    the relationship with "V" or decide to stop the relationship with "T".
    I think trying to have both (even just as friends) hurts too many people.
    Especially "T" and "V", not just you.