Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    I've got no answers to offer Lori - being in the same position myself!
    
    However, the "Lesbian Love Advisor" kept me laughing for two days
    and helped me keep a sense of perspective on it all - and it
    does have some amusing tips too. The stuff in there makes a lot
    of sense for *all* relationships, IMO - not just gay or wmn-wmn ones.
    
    I tend to just try and enjoy being with the other person, keep in
    touch with my own feelings, and stay honest (with tactful timing
    if necessary) - I just don't worry about what's  "date" and
    what's "serious" and what's "just hangin' out"....makes life simpler
    8-}
    
    'gail

    Date???  What's a date??
    
    It's been so long, I've forgotten. :-(
    
    L
    

    The starting point is GETTING a "date" (which in my opinion is either
    being asked, asking someone, and meeting somewhere or doing something).
    There are several ways to get a date: being fixed up; personal ads;
    going to dances, socials, mixers; attending functions at museums,
    libraries or clubs that you enjoy; joining a dating service; etc... I'd
    *STRONGLY* advise against getting involved with someone you work with
    or a VERY good friend (there are plenty of notes in here about the pros
    and cons of dating a friend).
    
    The hardest part (if you've been out of circulation for a while) is
    getting psyched up to meet total strangers. I've found that if I worked
    at it a couple of times a month then the panic passes and it becomes
    second nature. It is always easier to get to know someone you've met
    informally through something you both share and have a common interest
    in. The conversation always has something to revert back to.
    
    The most important thing to remember is you'll remain by yourself if
    YOU dont' go out and do something. Prince (or Princess) Charming ain't
    going to ride up to your doorstep, YOU'VE got to go out and find that
    person or persons! 

    When I was dating men, I usually let them do the asking. When I was a
    teenager I used to let them pay for the dates too but as I got older
    that changed. It seemed clear to me then that when a man asked me to do
    something it was a "date" rather than doing something just as a friend.
    
    When I started dating women (well, it took me a while to get from "yah,
    I want to date women" to actually dating any), it  wasn't (and still
    isn't) clear to me a lot of the time if it's a date or just doing
    something as a friend. If things became more physical between us
    then it would be obvious that we were more than friends.
    
    write more later. I'm too tired and busy to continue now...
    
    Laurie

    
    Hi Laurie!
    
    	I agree with L, --date??, what's a date??---
    
    And you're right about the abiguity of lesbian "dating", it's hard to
    tell where friendship ends and dating begins.  Having had only two
    relationships in the past 11 years, this single dating scene is a 
    little foriegn to me, too.  :-)
    
    Since I came out onto the gay scene, *mumble* years ago, (alright!! it
    was *1973*!!! ok!?) I've seen many changes.  The atmosphere was in a
    state of flux right then, as the gay revolution was starting to spread
    to the less metropolitain communities.  There were still a lot of the
    stereotypes around, the "butch and femme" roles were still being
    played.  In fact, when you came out at that time and started to get to
    know the "crowd", one of the first Questions that you were asked (if it
    wasn't obvious) was: "Are you butch or femme??", and they *really*
    wanted to *know*!!!  It was the basis of lesbian relationships back 
    then, a butch went with a femme and that was that.  Oh, not everyone
    adhered to the roles, exactly, but the majority did.
    	I know that when I first arrived on the scene, I was asked the
    *Question*--to which I answered, "Butch, I guess."  This *very* large
    woman then stared down at me and said, "You **guess**????  Don't you
    KNOW????"  "Well, yea...uh, ummm, butch, yea!!"  She walked away,
    satisfied.  But I wasn't, because looking around at that time, I was
    attracted to other women that were considered "butch"--what was this
    young, confused dyke to do????
    	Well, in talking to other young women, I found that the prevailing
    attitudes were changing.  A lot of these other women felt the same way,
    that you were attracted to *whoever*, and it shouldn't matter how the
    person looked.  Anyway, to relate this to dating, it just seems that
    it was a lot easier to meet other lesbians back then.  The influence
    of the roles made it easier at first to determine *who* would ask who
    out.  But then the roles started to get fuzzier and there was suddenly
    no "blueprint" to follow--which was good, but confusing.  After the 
    old "butch/femme" roles basically disappeared, there was a lot of
    freedom but no longer is there a roadmap.  
    
    	This is hard to put down in words, I know that years ago, I didn't
    have any problem meeting women who were interested in going with me.
    I seemed to have met women through other women or by casual association
    with women I already knew.  But now, there doesn't seem to be as much
    of a community and the bars are just *no* way to meet anyone these
    days!  The old bars used to be more of a social club, now it's just 
    a place to go to dance and get drunk.  
    
    	You see, lesbians don't have any parameters to go by.  And without
    them, yes--there is that freedom of anything goes (as far a who you can
    go out with!), but on the flip side--how do you know who to ask for a
    date??  How do you know when some woman is interested in you as a
    friend or a lover (I know, both is better!)?  When does friendship
    become a love relationship??  How do we communicate these things to
    each other, without the fear of **rejection**????
    	I really think that we, as a community of women should redefine
    these things and make ourselves a *new* roadmap.  I don't know how to
    go about it, but I'd like to see the map when we're through!!!
    
    	Let's see what we can come up with.  :-)
    
    Hugs to all in the same boat!
    
    Debbi

    Ahhhh...where's the primal scream note...
    
    Thanks to everyone for their comments here. I'm incredibly busy and
    don't have time to respond (I hate when this happens) but I do have a
    lot to say here. So more later...
    
    Hey, when You're an outlaw you're on the run a lot. Now I know how
    Butch and Sundance felt ;-)
    
    Laurie

    i gotta' agree with E on that personal name laurie...
    
    (-:

    
    So, Laurie....  are you Butch or ....  Sundance  ;-) ;-)
    
    Justine

    [anecdote that has nothing to do with the topic: my D&D character has a
    horse named Cassidy. Natch, when I got a dog, I named him Butch.]
    
    D!

    RE: my p_name [off the subject]
    
    Uhhh...OK I always get Butch and Sundance mixed up. Let's see if I can
    get them straight. Redford was kind of blond and played the serious
    Sundance and Newman was dark haired and played the fun-loving Butch
    (the one who road the bike in the rain). I'm kind blond but more like
    Butch. And that's seems more fitting ;-) "Butch in the streets, fem in
    the sheets". Just a saying...not that it had anything to do with me %-) 
    
    "oh baby" (that's for you Kathy Gallop ;-))
    
    the Outlaw

RE: .1  ('gail)
    
    
>>>    However, the "Lesbian Love Advisor" kept me laughing for two days
>>>    and helped me keep a sense of perspective on it all - and it
>>>    does have some amusing tips too. The stuff in there makes a lot
>>>    of sense for *all* relationships, IMO - not just gay or wmn-wmn ones.

I have never read that. I'll have to get it. JoAnn Loulan has lots of funny 
things to say about woman dating woman..."comedy of errors" as she puts it.
    
>>>    I tend to just try and enjoy being with the other person, keep in
>>>    touch with my own feelings, and stay honest (with tactful timing
>>>    if necessary) - I just don't worry about what's  "date" and
>>>    what's "serious" and what's "just hangin' out"....makes life simpler

Honesty is very important I think. I guess there are times when I like to
know if I'm dating someone or just hanging out as friends. Sometimes it's
obvious and sometimes it's not. One of my best friends and I started
hanging around together about 2 years ago. We just did a lot of things
together. I just considered us hanging out as friends. One time we were at
a park and I happened to hear someone ask her if we were dating (they
didn't know I could hear them) and she said "well, sort of". It started to 
make me a little uncomfortable because I didn't want her to get the wrong 
idea and I didn't want to hurt her. Yes, honesty is important but I just 
couldn't work up the nerve to talk to her about it. I knew I just liked her 
as a friend and not in a romantic way.

Finally she asked me if I wanted to go out on a date and then the whole
thing came out and we talked about it. I felt a lot better after that.
We've talked about having a casual sexual affair but I was afraid that we'd
both get very emotionally attached and it may ruin our friendship. And I
really value her friendship. So we've just stayed friends, no sex and she's 
an important part of my life.

Then I've been on the other side of the coin. That is, hanging out with
someone I really like as a friend and in a romantic way and not knowing if
they're feeling the same way. Well, some of you are probably thinking why
not just ask her? 

beep,beep,beep...holy sh*...my cat just walked over the keyboard...

alright back on the subject. Well, sometimes I don't ask because I'm afraid
of rejection and not always good at being direct. Somewhere along the line
it will come out. I mean I'll go to kiss her and she might say "woo...wait
a minute...you know I just think of you as a friend" or she'll kiss me back
and then I'll know :-) If I'm really starting to fall for someone and they
just want to hang out as friends I may need to not see them as much because
everytime I see them it just reminds me that I can't have them and it may
hurt inside. Did that make any cents? Did it make any dollars?;-) 

    I think what I'm trying to say is that calling it a "date" can somtimes
    help put things into perspective for me. 

.2 (L)

>>>    Date???  What's a date??

Good question! I mean you can have a "date" with a friend like to meet for 
lunch. I guess there's is "romantic date" going out with someone who you 
like in a romantic/sexual way and just a "friendship date". Hahahah...I just 
looked this word up in the dictionary. Holy smoke! You know what it 
says...get this 

4 : appointment: esp: a social engagement between two persons of opposite sex 5 
: a person of the opposite sex with whom one has a social engagement.

Now just what is it supposed to be called when two women go out together?
You mean this isn't a date after all? Or maybe lesbians are just invisible
again. Of course all we want is sex anyways , right (just kidding,just
kidding...heck I mean I'm already in trouble with the lesbian politically
correct posse anyways so why not just say something totally, politically 
incorrect ;-))
    
.3 (?)

>>>    The starting point is GETTING a "date" (which in my opinion is either
>>>    being asked, asking someone, and meeting somewhere or doing something).

When I was first coming out I was too afraid to ask anyone out. So I just 
waited for someone else to ask me out. Of course, many other gay/bi women 
are doing the same darn thing so lots of folks are just sitting around 
waiting for someone else to make the first move. Finally I got tired of it 
and just said "Just do it". I love the tee shirt that says that. "Just do 
it"...just ask someone else to go out. 

    
>>>    The hardest part (if you've been out of circulation for a while) is
>>>    getting psyched up to meet total strangers. I've found that if I worked
>>>    at it a couple of times a month then the panic passes and it becomes
>>>    second nature. It is always easier to get to know someone you've met
>>>    informally through something you both share and have a common interest
>>>    in. The conversation always has something to revert back to.
    
Yes, I agree. The more you do it the easier it gets. 

.5 (Debbi)
    
>>>    Hi Laurie!
    
Hi back to yah' friend!!!

    
>>>    And you're right about the abiguity of lesbian "dating", it's hard to
>>>    tell where friendship ends and dating begins.  Having had only two
>>>    relationships in the past 11 years, this single dating scene is a 
>>>    little foriegn to me, too.  :-)
    
Like I said a few back it always seemed clear to me when I was dating men
that It was a "date" rather than just doing things as friends. And I don't
even remember any men saying "hey, want to go out on a date" they'd usually
just say "want to go out to dinner or a movie" etc. With most women I go
out with it's the same thing. We usually don't specify "date" but just
"going out together". Now why was it clear to me with men but not with
women? Maybe because I just was programmed to think of men as always on the
"dating front", looking for potential lovers and sex rather than making
friends. And yes I know many of them are just trying to make friends but I
think our society just pumps that into us. Men always on the prowl. But I
think of women on more of a friendship level and so for me there is not
always a fine line between "friendship date" and "romantic date". 


>>>    	Well, in talking to other young women, I found that the prevailing
>>>    attitudes were changing.  A lot of these other women felt the same way,
>>>    that you were attracted to *whoever*, and it shouldn't matter how the
>>>    person looked.  Anyway, to relate this to dating, it just seems that
>>>    it was a lot easier to meet other lesbians back then.  The influence
>>>    of the roles made it easier at first to determine *who* would ask who
>>>    out.  But then the roles started to get fuzzier and there was suddenly
>>>    no "blueprint" to follow--which was good, but confusing.  After the 
>>>    old "butch/femme" roles basically disappeared, there was a lot of
>>>    freedom but no longer is there a roadmap.  

Excellent point. There was a default. When I was dating men many moons ago
it was the default of the man to ask a woman out. Is this still true today?
Or do a lot of single, hetereosexual women ask men to go out on dates? I
really have no idea. I haven't seen too much of the butch/fem roles with
lesbians (I've been out about 4 years). I don't really like the idea of
taking on a role. I just want to be myself, which is not butch and not fem
but somewhere inbetween.

    
>>>    	This is hard to put down in words, I know that years ago, I didn't
>>>    have any problem meeting women who were interested in going with me.
>>>    I seemed to have met women through other women or by casual association
>>>    with women I already knew.  But now, there doesn't seem to be as much
>>>    of a community and the bars are just *no* way to meet anyone these
>>>    days!  The old bars used to be more of a social club, now it's just 
>>>    a place to go to dance and get drunk.  
    
You know there are less lesbian bars now then there were 15 years ago. 
The social clubs have moved out of the bars and into other social groups.


>>>    	You see, lesbians don't have any parameters to go by.  And without
>>>    them, yes--there is that freedom of anything goes (as far a who you can
>>>    go out with!), but on the flip side--how do you know who to ask for a
>>>    date??  How do you know when some woman is interested in you as a
>>>    friend or a lover (I know, both is better!)?  When does friendship
>>>    become a love relationship??  How do we communicate these things to
>>>    each other, without the fear of **rejection**????

Rejection...ughhh!!! I always seem to fall for the "wrong" women ;-) And 
there's still a lot of this politically correct sh*t still floating around. 
I mean lesbians get a lot of pressure not to do certain things like 
date bisexual women. This is a very hot button for me as many of you know 
;-) I can't tell you how many times I've brought up the subject of 
"bisexuality" in lesbian circles and caused a commotion.

Part of the problem I know I have and I see many women having it on the
dating scene is being agressive about our needs both sexual and emotional.
Many of us have been brought up to let others define and bring these things
to us. We haven't learned the skills needed to get a mate for a
relationship or just for sex. And there are times when women feel guilty
because maybe they do "just want sex". And what the heck is wrong with
that? 

I know I'm still learning how to date and what I want/need from a
relationship. It has helped me tremendously not to jump into a relationship
but to stay single for a while,make friends,date different women and spend
time by myself. Listening to others talk on the subject of dating has also
helped me a lot. 


the Outlaw 

    Ok, now I haven't dated in years and when I was dating I had alot of
    fun....when I dated men most of the time I was asked out but I guess
    I asked someone out maybe once or twice....
    
    When I started dating women I went to bars to meet them .....get
    a phone number and then if I was interested I would call.....I also
    met women thru ads.......for me that was a good way to met women....
                                                      
    There were a couple of women that I met that courted me.....and I
    courted others.....and I think that this is something that can add to
    dating.....I know that if I like someone who I was dating I would 
    give her flowers (a single rose always worked) or a mushy card or
    a note.....
    
    One women sent flowers to my work........
    
    Dating can be alot of fun and you really have the opportunity to
    be choosey and find the special women in your life.....Enjoy
    
           
    If I was dating now.....boy, would I have being have fun....I would
    most certainly do the asking....if I liked someone I would ask them out
    and be doing all kinds of things......
    
    
    hey, if you like someone......you got to ask......got to take the
    risk....then you know one way or the other.....go for it......
    
    denise
    
                                                                

    
    I'm entering this for a member of our community who wishes to be
    anonymous at this time.
    
    Justine -- Womannotes comod
    =============================================================
    
981, especially .5 and .11 hit home and hard.
This issue has been on my mind for months and
I'd searched through Womannotes in hope of finding
something.

I'm wondering how can a heterosexual woman conduct 
a friendship with a lesbian woman, the latter seeming to
have a a sexual interest in the former.  This happened 
to me recently.

We had a lot in common, lived near each other so an
out-of-office friendship developed.  I never represented 
myself as anything but heterosexual, didn't even make a 
point of it.  Increasingly her conversation included sexual 
references and non-sexual touching (hugging, maybe touching 
my arm when speaking to me).  I may be the slowest-learner
in the world.  I didn't reciprocate but did keep my end 
of the friendship alive.  Finally she created an incident
and went off in a stormy huff.

I've had friendships with lesbians for years, have had them 
for roommates without incident.  In general I feel closer to 
women socially - there's no "loading" to the relationships, 
and as a practical matter, men die first so I am going to 
spend most of my lifetime among women so I shouldn't be 
selecting-out perfectly fine friends just because I don't 
share their sexual preference. 

Words of advice?  Thanks!

    

    re.13 [anon]
    
    my take is that the dynamic of the situation isn't all that different
    from _any_ two people where one wants to be 'just friends' and one
    wants something more.
    
    I've been in situations where all I could offer was friendship many
    times and each has been unique.  I've been as totally honest as I feel
    is necessary and gentle, after all I love these people I'm talking
    about.  Beyond that there's no 'programming' the other person.  If a
    person couldn't abide being just friends then we just parted ways,
    which broke my heart.
    
    but you cannot be what you're not.  a friend wouldn't demand it as a
    condition of friendship.
    
      Annie

Anon. (.13)

You've had friendships with several lesbians and lived
with others, without incident. Then along comes a lesbian
who wanted a relationship with you that you didn't want.

It sounds to me as though you handled things exactly right. If
you don't want a sexual relationship with another person,
regardless of their sex or sexual orientation, you shouldn't
have it.

My bet is that you've either had or can imagine similar situations
with men: men who you've enjoyed, who have let you know they'd like
a sexual relationship with you, who you've turned down.

You may or may not be able to continue the friendship with
the lesbian, just as you may or may not be able to continue
a friendship with a heterosexual man who has a sexual interest
in you that you don't reciprocate. It depends on the personalities
involved and on the circumstances.

Lesbian women are as diverse as hetersexual women. You'll like some,
and you'll hate some.

Kathy