Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I personally don't mind men noticing what I look like. I think it's
    perfectly natural: people keep their eyes open throughout their day,
    don't they? And, as for dressing in response to that, you may have read
    my reply in 948 that stated that I do not believe it is my
    responsibility to determine what perception men get of me. It is up to
    me to dress the way I like, and if that means men look at me (or don't
    look at me, as the case may be), then so be it. Frankly, that's their
    business. It only becomes my business if they talk to me in response to
    what they see and if it colours their perception of me. It is their own
    fault, not mine, if what they see of me prejudices them against me.
    
    Alice T.

    I don't mind one bit what men think of me or perceive from me. I've
    never dressed up for men's tastes anyway.  I wear what I like, what I
    think it is proper and adequate for the ocassion and I couldn't care
    less what a man, or men, think of it... I always notice what a person 
    IS, not what a person wears... of course what the person wears tells a
    lot about the person's tastes, upbringting, etc, etc, (I don't care
    much for slobs but I'd never tell them, so there's no offense to
    anyone, it'd only be my perception of them, that goes for men, as well
    as women).  so to answer your question: no, I don't get angry, or
    bothers me at all whatever a man think or might think about the way I
    dress, that is none of my concern. 

    re.0
    
    since you ask ...
    
    I dress to please myself [with certain exceptions and restrictions].
    
    If someone looks up my skirt when I'm climbing stairs, well then s/he
    will see what's under my skirt ... last time I checked there was nothing
    objectionable hiding there.
    
    I do not dress to avoid being looked at.  I do not mind being looked at
    ... under certain conditions I positively _bloom_ when being looked at.
    
    HOWEVER, seeing is not getting or owning or any number of other things.
    
    In short, I don't mind people looking.  I get irritated when people
    assume that I have dressed for their enjoyment. And I get flaming
    pissed when people decide that I am personified my lingerie [or
    something].
    
      Annie

    
    I dress comfortably, and when at work I dress to de-emphasize certain
    features.  I want people to see me for what I can do, not what they
    think I look like or what *that* can do.
    
    I went to school for 10 years at mostly-male schools, and don't feel
    comfortable wearing skirts or dresses (definitely felt scrutinized
    wearing these at the schools).  When at work, I usually wear 2 layers
    on top (turtleneck with blouse over, V-neck polo-type shirt with blouse
    over, turtleneck with sweatshirt over, etc.)
    
    -Jody
    

    It's funny...I read the title of the topic, and I thought a woman possibly
    had entered it about her SO looking at *other* women. Then I read the 
    basenote and discovered what the topic was really about. But, as long as 
    we're talking about women being looked at by men...
    
    If it doesn't bother a lot of women as to how *they* dress and are 
    perceived by men, why do a lot of men *generally speaking* have bruised 
    shoulders from being hit by their SO's when they look at *other* women, 
    dressing for the same or similar reasons mentioned; ie= to be comfortable
    or to emphasize or de-emphasize certain "features", etc.? Seems to be 
    something slightly amiss with this line of thought...Again *GENERALLY* 
    speaking, women, moreso than men, tend to dress to be looked at, for 
    whatever their individual reasons, and men (generally speaking) are more 
    than willing to oblige in this (general) area. ;') 
    
    SO, if I could make a slight request...if we look at women who dress for 
    the same reasons you do, and we respond to them in the same way we would 
    respond to "you" (generic for any female SO), please stop considering us 
    (generic for any male SO) impolite if we react to these other women in the
    same way we would react if it were you (generally speaking of course).
    And please...stop hitting us! ;') ;') ;')  
    
    Of course, we male SO's will also have to just live with the fact that 
    other males look at "you", our female SO's in the same way...wait a
    minute...I don't like this game anymore...I quit! ;') ;') ;')

    re.5
    
    your last two paras sort of say it all.
    
    I don't mind if Rick looks appreciatively at other women, don't even
    mind being with him when he does it.  I don't mind the occasional
    comment on the passing scenery, but I find that if it tends over into
    gawking I might just as well hang from the rafters and sing "The
    Impossible Dream" for all he'll be hearing what I'm saying. 
    
    The man does, however, risk personal injury if he infers that I might
    do well to emulate the scenery. Perhaps that's the source of your
    bruises?
    
      Annie
    
    

    seems to me there's a fuzzy line somewhere.
    
    of course folks are going to notice and appreciate attractive members
    of the appropriate gender.
    
    but where I was raised, it was considered, well, impolite for (say) a
    man to pick his tongue up off the ground and exclaim "wow! look at
    those hooters!" (for example) in the presence of his significant other.
    
    now, I believe the line to be fuzzy, and in a different place for each
    couple; maybe in a different place for each member in a couple. 
    Perhaps this is the reason for the bruises?
                                  

 The line is simple; pay absolutely no attention whatever to the passing
"scenery" and you'll never have to worry about bruises. Or superglue...

    My wife often points out other women she things are attractive or
    dressed in such a way as to display their charms (or both).  We were at
    a jazz festival this weekend and there were certainly a few who were on
    display.
    
    Of course she and her female friend went up to the bandstand to check
    out B. Marsalis and came back with really big smiles and pronounced him
    "yummy".
    
    Sauces for both goose and gander.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

    I'll point out attractive people of both sexes to my SO and he does
    likewise. We don't ogle (that's rude and uncomfortable for the oglie)
    and there's certainly no hurt feelings.
    
    I'm comfortable enough with what I wear and how I look to not be
    worried about him going out to get part of the *scenery*.
    
    I dress to please myself and this usually pleases my SO.  But I
    dressed this way before I met him.  
    
    I think it's important to dress comfortably for yourself.  If you
    feel comfy you'll look good.  You could be wearing a $500 evening
    dress and feel ugly if you're not comfortable in it.
    
    
    
                                    L.J.
    
    
    p.s. And I could care who looks at what on my body.

I always thought it was pretty rude to look up a ladies skirt when they
were climbing the stairs...

    
    re .8
    
    out here the wymmin are carrying those pepper - based anti staring
    devices that clip to the belt; works better on myn than on myns
    best friend..
    

    My ex-girlfriend used to hate me even glancing at an attractive
    member of the opposite sex. For someone used to appreciating 
    attractive (to me) women I found this fairly uncomfortable. This
    was because if an attractive girl walked into the pub we were in 
    and went and sat within my eyeshot, that entire area of the pub was
    "out of bounds" to my eyes.  I would then start to have to make 
    sure I didn't look even remotely towards the afforementioned girl.
    Eventually I would forget and look in the out of bounds area and
    get it in the neck. It would sometimes even ruin the evening. I'm
    not saying I should be allowed to ogle at other women, but I draw 
    the line at constantly following my eyes to make sure I'm not looking
    at another woman.  I also suffer from the subconscious (?) desire
    to do anything I'm not allowed to. Like walk on the grass when a 
    sign says I can't etc. This made it more difficult for me not to 
    sneak a glance.  The irony is that if I had been "allowed", I would
    probably only glance at the girl once and that would be it.  
        She also hated me wearing sunglasses 'cos she couldn't see 
    where my eyes were going. 
        Is my ex's attitude a one off, or am going to have to buy a 
    pair of mirror shades ???
    
    
    Jerome.   
    
    
        

	I was just talking to someone about this recently.  

	When I run at work and it's hot out, I usually wear shorts and
a jogbra.   I make sure it's a very loud jogbra so everyone can tell it's
actually an "exercise top" and not just underwear... I am self conscious
going out like that but I'll be d*mned if I'm going to wear a shirt running
when it's 80+ degrees out just to look proper. Especially since the male
runners don't have to.  I am infinitely more comfortable that way.   
Some of the men don't feel proper running at work with no shirt on, but some of 
them do run shirtless and I'm with them.  I know I attract a fair amount of 
attention as such, but I think it's not my issue and as long as I feel safe 
that I won't be attacked, I'll keep doing it.  
	
Rachael

    .14, in my opinion your (ex?) girlfriend's requirements were excessive.
    
    like I said, the line is fuzzy and varies in placement, but if it's not
    comfortable for both of you, that's a problem.

    first I'm gonna put on my asbestos suit.
    
    I remember a discussion from a long time ago (not here) in which the
    point was made concerning visual cues.  It helps to be able to
    illustrate this point visually rather than verbally, nevertheless, here
    goes.
    
    When we look at objects and people in our environment, our eyes are
    often drawn to specific focal points by visual cues in the form of
    pointers or arrows.  Sign makers and advertisers use these cues all the
    time.
    
    An arrow pointing left drws your eyes to the left (at this point and
    arrow was drawn pointing left.    <-  ) And an arrow pointing right draws
    your attention to the right   ->   and an arrow pointing in any other
    direction draws your attention in that direction as well.  at this
    point an arrow was drawn pointing downward.  Then the speaker (who
    evidently had some artistic talent) embellished the downward pointing
    arrow until it was a very attractive women displaying a reasonable
    (like not all the way to the navel) amount of cleavage.  His
    conclusion, if a person (especially a women, though men do it sometimes
    also) wants to focus attention on the bosom, it is very easy.  In most
    cases, all it takes to draw the attention away is to remove the arrow
    (see Jody's note about double layers topside.  Note especially that she
    mentions turtlenecks and (I think) high necklines).  
    
    Please note, I am not advocating or insisting upon what is appropriate
    clothing, merely making (or trying to make) a point about visual cues
    and focal points.  I love plunging necklines myself ;-> and hope they
    never disappear from fashion.  I look, God help me, I do.  I even enjoy
    it unless I find the person at whom I looked becoming uncomfortable. 
    'Cause excuse me, but I did not mean to stare or cause discomfort.
    But I will probably be no better than my 99 year old grand-father, who
    told me about a month before he died, that he liked bowling nights at
    the home, "No, I can't bowl myself" he said, "but I like to watch the
    ladies".
    
    I think I'll keep this asbestos suit on for awhile.  But, I really wish
    I was wearing something that would stop nukes.  8-0
    
    8-)
    jimc 

    re:.18
    
       I don't find your note offensive...honest yes, but not offensive.
    
    
    
                                   L.J.

as a woman with, in my opinion, far too much "bounty" on the top deck, I can
agree that it is sometimes disturbing to find men focusing their attention on
my chest when speaking to me one-on-one -- as if my breasts were the center 
of my intelligence!  I hate to break it to ya, guys, but they are just 
overgrown, specialized sweat glands!

I also admit, however, that if I don't choose to wear turtlenecks (not a good
fashion idea for a short-necked person), then I have the problem of the
"creeping cleavage" - without a special-sized and fitted bra, a luxury I cannot
always afford, I can end up with exposed cleavage in a standard, v-necked
shirt...at which point, I get what I deserve....by exposing a tempting target
for viewing, I get it viewed.  I try to avoid this whenever possible, but
sometimes it happens - especially when the man is taller than me and can "look
down".  I haven't suffered any major trauma from this experience, just a mild
irritation.  It can be distracting to me when I'm trying to get work done...
and it can be distracting to the man.  I suspect he is also mildly irritated
that the distraction occurs at work.

In my thinner and younger years, I was stared at a bit when wearing my jeans
and shirts...and, truth to tell, I just wasn't that aware of it because I
was convinced I wasn't very attractive....so, I just wasn't looking for it
and usually only became aware of it if someone mentioned it to me or if I
"stumbled" upon a man while he was looking and caught his eye - at which time
he was embarassed too.  It just wasn't a big deal either way.

If your girlfriend is on your case about "looking", it may be the WAY you 
look (and the way you ignore HER while looking) that is causing the problem...
practice being a little subtle and she probably won't get so hot under the
collar.  If you are obviously ogling the "talent", you look like you aren't
"attached" and that is an insult to your companion TO WHOM YOU ARE "ATTACHED"
at least for the duration of the date....pure and simple.  This behavior
expresses a lack of interest in your companion, and can easily be construed
as a lack of respect. 

	"you can read the menu and get your appetite anywhere -

		but you just better eat at *home*"

    I want a man to look me in the eye when talking to me, not at
    *anything* else.
    
    HRH

    Re .24 -
    
        No, what I meant was, "STOP STARING AT MY CHEST!"
    
        There, I feel much better now.....
    
    HRH

Re: .25

>        No, what I meant was, "STOP STARING AT MY CHEST!"
>        There, I feel much better now.....


... that you've gotten that off your chest? 8-) 8-) 8-)

[sorry, couldn't resist 8-) ]

--jim

I like this one:

        Nice day,



                  aren't they?

--Lillian

    Re .25
    
    	Is it really that bad?

    .28, ::bridge, yes, sometimes it is that bad.  Most men have at least
    some couth, at least at work, but once in a while you get the exception
    that makes you want to tell him to... Um, I decided not to say what I
    said that time to that man; you can assume it was rude.
    
    I have, once, snapped my fingers in the face of the man who could not
    ever keep his eyes above my shoulders, and informed him that my eyes
    were *up*here*.  And I have had a man stand in the door of my cube and
    tell me that it was unreasonable for me to expect any man to keep his
    mind on work around me, because men just can't do that around women. 
    (I was 8 months and 45 lbs pregnant at the time of the latter.)  Such
    drips are thankfully not so common anymore, but they exist.

I thought some of you might be amused by this story.

When I was at university there was a young male professor who considered himself
God's gift to women.  He could not look anywhere when talking to them, however,
besides their chest.  I was at the same party once where he was.  Many women
commented on this habit of his so I, with several women listening in, brought up
the issue with him.  I asked him how he would like it if all the women stared
at his crotch when talking to him.  The idea caught on quickly and the rest of 
the evening all the women at the party stared at his crotch.  He suffered from
a rather uncomfortable erection the rest of the evening and left early.

It was the talk of the department the next day.  His eye contact did improve 
after that but, unfortunately, I made quite an enemy.  Oh well, I never could
learn to keep my mouth shut. :-)

ccb 

    Hey, does nobody round here find it flattering to be looked at?
    
    Alice T.

    Only if I noticed !!!   :-)
    
    
    Jerome.

    HRH
    
    I didn't know you meant staring to that extreme. The first note I saw
    from you stated you wanted men to look you in the eye and not *anything* 
    else. Can an occasional glance be flattering? Or is it always painful.
    
    I can see how you could be upset if a man just stared at your chest.
    
    John

Alice, it's not that I don't want to be thought of as attractive ever, it's that
in a work setting I do not like to be with any man so ruled by his hormones that
he cannot keep his eyes and mind on the topic at hand.  It's that I don't want
to be literally chased around the desk by my boss.  It's that I don't want to be
asked, in the middle of a technical design discussion, about anything sexual in
nature.

All these are examples from real life (mine, and I am no Garbo).  They do not
describe the majority of the men I have worked with, but they do describe a
continuous minority presence.  If you were in the middle of a technical discussion
with your male boss, and you  suddenly and completely out of context told him that
you had always admired his buns, you would be way out of line.  That's the kind of
thing I mean.

Sara

    .30  >laughter!<  That was a great story, and also a great remedy! 
    I've used just that technique to solve similar problems.
    
    -Janice

    Re .33 - John -
    
    An occasional glance?  Do you mean that while talking to
    me, the man's eyes are darting down to my chest, and then
    back to my face, and then down, and then up?  It would
    still be a rude thing to do....not to mention, I doubt what
    I'm saying is being heard....so that makes it twice as rude....
    
    Re  look at his crotch story -
    
    Priceless!
    
    HRH

    It's hard to imagine, Johnbridge, (I've always liked your name as one
    word!), such an invasion to one's dignity but there are those men who 
    do this and care not a whit what the woman thinks.  We live with this
    almost daily.  And we are not expected to "bring it up" in protest
    such that when we do, we've "created a problem" where, to them, none
    existed before, if only we'd just been, you know, pliant, pliable,
    open, giving, accepting and understanding of our sex object status,(a
    la "she was wearing that, so..."), like we're supposed to be.  Sounds
    strange?  Try *living* it!
    
    S.

 Some men need to develop self-control. 

    Boy how can I get out of this one without digging deeper? I don't think
    a man should STARE at a woman's chest, or any other part of the body. 
    Or dart their eyes back and forth. If someone is out of line I think you 
    should tell them. I was just saying what harm is it if someone finds you 
    attractive to look. Nothing else. I'm sure none of you women look...
    
    But Sandy your right I don't live with this problem.  Maybe that's why
    I don't understand this one.. Sorry if I offended anyone.
    
    Funny Sandy, your not the first one to say my name should be one word...
                                                                     
    John

    Someone actually told me last week that for about the first six months
    he never even knew I had a face.  I know I don't exactly have a small
    bust but at the same time I do everything possible to try and tone down
    the size byt wearing boring dark or plan clothes.
    
    
    Tracy W

    I have to really concentrate not to stare at a nice pair of womens
    legs, especially if clad in hose. I don't think the woman I might be
    looking at notices, but maybe other people do.  I think I have a
    tendency to stare at anything that I find interesting, which is not a 
    desirable trait when in bars(will you hit me please?) or when driving. 
    :+)
        Having said the above, I don't think I would be so rude as to look
    at a womans chest when talking to her. If anything, if I noticed she
    had a large chest, I think I would make a conscious effort *not* to
    look at her chest.  I don't normally stare constantly into a womans 
    eyes when I'm talking/listening, but thats partly because I feel I'm 
    being too aggressive and partly due to shyness. I do try to keep up 
    reasonable eye contact though. I think its a shame that men leering
    makes a woman dress in boring clothes. Pokes his eyes out with a blunt
    stick the next time it happens. Alternatively, staring at *his* crotch
    would be quite effective. Also, say something like "is it really that 
    small, or is it the cut of those trousers". Thats got to be on a par
    with "is it in"  for crushing a mans ego :+)
    
    
    Jerome.

One thing I try to do when talking to another person, regardless of hir
sex, is to make/break eye contact at irregular but not infrequent
intervals.  I've observed that this seems to be the normal pattern for
a conversation between peers.  It isn't aggressive to make eye contact
if one doesn't hold it too long.  Look at the person's eyes, look at the
furniture, look at hir clothes, look at hir eyes, look at the white
board, look at hir eyes, look at hir hair, and so on.

-d

    I remember a study once that suggested that one problem blacks and
    whites had in communicating was that the typical white (male?) would
    look at you while speaking and look away from you while listening,
    whereas the typical black (male?) would do just the opposite.  Or do
    I have it backwards?  Not exactly on the subject, but interesting
    anyway.
    					- Vick

    Not being amongst the well-endowed, I've never had a man look at my
    chest while talking to me.  It seems weird to me that so many women
    have experienced this phenomenon while I've spent my life talking to
    men who have had no better choice than looking in my face!!  It must be
    strange.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .44, I mean having men stare at one's chest while talking must be
    strange...not that my face is strange!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

um... Lorna... maybe try again?

no better choice....?  Somehow that's not the way I'd've put that thought!
;-}

   Oh dear, the whole group of related subjects regarding people looking at
   people....  I find great humor when I try to apply my own experence
   to it.  Two things enter the picture, one is something to look at,
   and the other is the inculturation that one should not look.

   Woman would have much more to look at if men's work wear included tank
   tops and V-neck blouses...  

   Men certainly wouldn't look if the rules and clothes were reversed,
   ok they would, but it would be more covert...

   Society has set us up with some screwy rules.

   Of course I say all this having experienced both, ur neither, um help!

   Allison

A friend of mine who is well endowed sometimes wears a button on her blouse, 
which says, in print so small that you have to look *real close*:


           why are you looking
              at my chest?              <--- that print isn't small enough

She doesn't wear it to work.

Bruce

PS - I like the idea of men wearing tanks tops and v-necks more. I'm proud of 
the gray hairs on my chest.

    re Sara, I think I was being sarcastic when I said "no better choice." 
    :-)
    
    As far as looking at other people or being afraid to look, I remember
    that I was shocked the first time I realized, during a conversation
    with female co-workers 10 or 12 yrs. ago, that some women actually
    *look* at guys crotches.  I've always felt that I would be terribly
    embarrassed if a guy caught me looking in that direction so have
    never looked in that direction.  I sometimes find myself staring at
    good looking people, but it's always at their faces or overall
    appearance without zeroing in on a particular area.
    
    Lorna
    

    i dunno about chest size having much to do with it lorna.  i'm maybe a
    micro-inch bigger than you, but i've caught guys doing it to me at
    work...
    
    lt

    Lorna's note back a couple reminded me of a programme I saw on the telly.
    They were demonstrating a special optical helmet that can indicate on a TV
    screen where the wearers eyes were focused. They had the wearer look
    at a room full of people. The men, when looking at an attractive woman,
    were totally blatant and looked the woman all over, concentrating on
    the legs,bum,crotch,chest etc. Occasionaly they would look at the face !
    The women, however, were almost the opposite. They would look just at
    the face, then, just for an instant, their eyes would dart down to the
    crutch and back again. It was hilarious to watch, but its probably says
    it all with respect to the way men look at women and vice versa.
    
    
    Jerome.                        

    Re: Lorna.....I remember your face as being easy to focus on....
    
    I'd like to take the base question just a bit to the side: Do women
    recognize what part of their body is the "outstanding" feature and
    centralize their wardrobe or dress to accentuate it?? The reason I ask
    is that there have been women that I have worked with who seem to dress
    to "feature" their assets. If they were long legged they may wear short
    skirts and fancy hose, if they were busty, they might wear blouses to
    highlight that feature, or a slighty tight pair of slacks to accentuate
    a rear end. 
    
    The other part of this may seem a bit silly, but, do women realize
    these assests on their own or does someone say something to inform
    them like...."those slacks really compliment your butt"?
    
    I know that many women have their "colors" done to help them select a
    wardrobe that will look better on them and to avoid poor color choices.
    It would just seem that to be that aware of dressing, highlighting a
    special feature would go hand in hand.......
    
    maybe I'm all wet....
    
    Ken 

    Call me odd, but if someone ever said to me "those pants really
    compliment your butt," I'd feel like killing them.
    
    Would you want to be primarily known for your rear end?
    
    Sue

    
    Ken,
    
    	Are women aware of their assets? I don't know. Some parts are
    obvious, but other parts like the rear end is kind of hard for one
    to notice. Sometimes it is hard to envision "what if's". Eg. My
    husband has been telling me for years to grow my hair long and I've
    been telling him for years that he's out of his mind. I am in
    the process of letting my hair grow (mainly because I don't know
    what else to do with it) and I am finding out that I do look better
    with longer hair! It takes a LOT of trial and error to get it 
    right. 
    	I think most women tend to be conservative/professional in the
    work place. When I go out with my husband, I dress to impress him.
    I personally don't care to impressive people at work or on the
    street!
    
    
    Eva

re: .52: really, you're too much!

    I admit it, I know my colors.  This is because my mother had her colors
    done, and we have the same coloring.  After this, she gave me a packet
    of color swatches in hopes that I would stop buying things that clashed
    with each other and/or made my hair or skin look green.  It worked
    beautifully, and has been an absolute boon to the budget since everything
    kind-of-goes with everything else.  To use knowing your colors as a sign
    of being "aware of dressing" is pretty funny in my case, since on a good 
    day my fashion sense is roughly on a par with the LL Bean catalog.

    There are lots of fashion writings that recommend accentuating one's 
    "better" features, usually in terms of "drawing attention away" from 
    another feature they deem inadequate.  The average woman does not need 
    to be told which of her features would be inadequate for a fashion model,
    which is usually what's presented as the ideal.  If she wants to come
    closer to meeting society's stringent standards of what a woman "should" 
    look like, she needs only to accentuate the features on the bottom of
    the inadequacy list.  It's actually kind of sad.

        Sharon

    I'd vote for absolutely yes, women are aware.  How could we not be?????
    From the time we're old enough to understand spoken language, virtually
    our whole existence is based around our image and the details that make
    it up.  We know what kind of fingernails we have, how thick our ankles
    are, how long our necks should be, how our bellybuttons measure up, how
    lush our eyelashes are compared to men's ideals, our teeth, our elbows,
    the backs of our knees, the shape of our earlobes, and so on, ad nauseum.  
    Some women may ignore it, but every one of us knows and in excrutiating 
    detail what the current image is and how each of our body parts
    compares to it.  We live under microscopes, remember?
    
    S.

	How is your bellybutton Sandy? ;-)	--Doug

    Thanx for picking that one, that one measures up!  ;^>  ;^>
    
    S.

   I'm not sure, but I don't think I've ever had a complaint about
  complimenting a woman that has lost weight, ... yet, I'm making a
  direct comment on their bodies.  Also, the way that most women gain
  and loose weight, if there's a big difference, its usually in the
  rear end, and legs and so on.  So .... I guess its a compliment if
  you aren't blunt, but if you say, .. gee, you really look great, you've
  lost a lot of weight in your butt, it looks great ... thats not a  
  compliment.

   I like to look at good looking women.  I wish people would be able
  to believe me that if I look at them, or compliment their bodies, that
  I'm not trying to be rude, or I'm not going to jump them.  I'm just
  giving them a compliment.  

   Staring at someone is rude, regardless of the situation. Didn't your
  mother tell you not to stare!  Especially during a conversation, you
  should be paying attention to what they are saying!

   Hmmm, talking about staring ... you should attend a nude beach  ....
  you'll notice that the clothed people tend to be the ones staring ...
  (they're called gawkers) ... naked folks don't usually stare.
  At completely nude places, .. there is very little staring going on.

   Maybe its just the clothes people are staring at 8^) ...

  -paul

  

    re.59
    
    _I_ believe you aren't trying to be rude or [generally] jump someone.
    
    Doesn't mean I like it, though.
    
    Compliments can be nice without being appropriate -- sometime they are,
    sometimes they're not.
    
      Annie

In one of the Alice books, Alice admonishes/is admonished:

It is Rude to make Personal Remarks.

... I try to follow the following rule.  If I don't know someone well, I don't
remark on changes in appearance, whether related to weight, hairstyle, clothing
(well, I have been known to tell perfect strangers that I like some article of
clothing or jewelry, but that is different than saying 'you look nicer in a
business suit than in bell-bottoms') etc

y'see, I *know* I have foot-in-mouth disease, so I avoid such comments when I
don't know the recipient well enough to be given the benefit of the doubt.

well, I try, anyhow.

>	How is your bellybutton Sandy? ;-)	--Doug

	I was impressed with the earlobe part -- I haven't the faintest idea 
	what mine (or anyone else's, for that matter) look like.



	*A*

    There are "attached" lobes, "unattached" ones, and the shell of the ear
    itself has a "perfect" measurement, (getting a little surprised at how
    finely quantified female flesh really is?), whereby a pearl of a certain
    millimeter is supposed to fit snugly or something stupid like that. 
    There's the "pencil test" for breasts, the "three diamonds" test for
    leg shape, exact knee to hip versus knee to ankle ratios, "perfect"
    distances from bottom rib to the upper crest of the pelvic girdle,
    exact starting, stopping and arch points for eyebrows, a "perfect" 
    distance between the eyes - the obsession is truly amazing!  Men just have 
    some vague idea that they look good in x color because they like that 
    color or in jeans because they like jeans and that's pretty much the end 
    of it, take it or leave it, ladies.  And many men feel that way as they 
    painstakingly assess women's leg lengths, the distance from shoulder to 
    elbow, the curve of a cheekbone, the thickness of eyelashes, etc.
    
    So in a way, a good looking guy probably gets a lot more,
    (surrepticious), looks than a good looking woman if for no other reason 
    than that he's so damn rare, given the relatively haphazard way most men
    package themselves.
    
    S.        

    
    Pencil test...??!!
    
    3 diamond test on legs..??????
    
    perfect EARLOBES, fergawdssakes....?!!!!
    
    
    Jeez, and I thought my naivete was a disadvantage.... ignorance CAN be
    bliss!
    
    
    Jamd - two legs, two earlobes, no pencils

The earlobes business sounds pretty funny, but...  

When I was getting my ears pierced, the doctor spent a long time
agonizing over where to put the holes (I have one attached earlobe and one
unattached, and they're different sizes).  She decided to make the holes 
level with each other, even though it meant one earring wouldn't be quite 
in the middle of the lobe.

You'd be surprised how many people have noticed (and commented on) that 
since, and then go on to tell me how my earlobes are "really weird".

    Sharon (thanks, lucky stars, for keeping me in the dark about the
	    "3 diamonds test"!)

    re .64
    
    You forgot the "ruler test" for your stomach!
    
    ~ginny
    (who has flunked every test on the list)

I can't take the pencil test as they prefer I don't play with pointed objects..
and I can never find a blunt point pencil.  


				D

    Ok I'll bite.. I know what the pencil test is... Now what are all these
    other test?
    
    REK

    Sandy
    
    in re belly buttons :-(, I lost mine to a C section 22 years ago...
    
    I'm jealous 
    
    
    
    
    :-) x 10
    
    Bonnie
    
    I think I have some parts of me that are nice, but I'm not always
    sure which ones.

re: .52

>    I'd like to take the base question just a bit to the side: Do women
>    recognize what part of their body is the "outstanding" feature and
>    centralize their wardrobe or dress to accentuate it?? The reason I ask
 
    I dress to de-emphasize the oustanding feature I don't want stared at. 
    On rare occasions, I dress to "impress", but that's maybe once every
    few months.  I'd rather just blend into the woodwork and be seen for
    attributes other than the physical.
    
    
    -Jody   
    

    I never knew how great I looked (until I met my (politically incorrect)
    fiance) because I was told I was ugly.
    
    I now know I'm not.
    
    I know I've got a great neck and a great bust and a good tummy.
    
    Alice T.

    re .70, Bonnie, I had a c-section 17 1/2 yrs. ago but the last time I
    checked I still had a bellybutton!  I don't get it.  How'd you lose
    yours?  :-)
    
    re earlobes, once I asked my ex-husband, when we were first married,
    what he considered my best physical attribute to be and he replied, "Well,
    I've always thought you had perfectly shaped ears.  I've always noticed
    that a lot of people have really ugly ears."  I said, "So...you fell
    in love with me because you like my ears?"  And, he said, "No, because
    I like your ass."   But, anyway, I had never given people's ears,
    including my own much thought, and found his comment quite funny at the
    time.  I had never noticed that a lot of people have ugly ears.  I
    still haven't noticed it!  
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    I really do have a belly button, it is just cut at the bottom, so
    especially before I lost weight, it all looked like one long line..
    Now that I'm slimmer, it sort of looks like the 'dot' on the top
    of a long 'i' :-).
    
    Bonnie

    
    I think knowing what I have is one thing and knowing how to work 
    with it is another. Getting the right clothes is the hard part
    ie. time consuming.
    
    
    Eva

RE: .53

>    Call me odd, but if someone ever said to me "those pants really
>    compliment your butt," I'd feel like killing them.
>    
>    Would you want to be primarily known for your rear end?

	Not really, but some of us can't help it...

	Larry_with_the_PE101_nightmare_last_name	;-)

    
    re. -1
    
    I think I'd change my name if I were you ;-). Just joking....
    
    Eva