Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    What a tough question!
    
    I haven't really thought this through as much as I'd like, but these
    are my thoughts, not the only possible thoughts, just the point of view
    of one survivor.
    
    I think you have to ask yourself *why* you really want to do this.
    And think on it long, and hard.  And then wait before you do anything.
    Are you sure you don't just want to do this so you feel less guilty?
    Are you sure you only want to do this for the benefit of the person who
    was hurt?  If there's any part of you that wants to do this to expiate 
    the guilt, I don't think you should do anything.  The abused person is
    most important here; you can only work through your own guilt on your
    own.  I don't know if any of this applies; I just don't think that 
    the abusers benefit should at all be taken into consideration in any
    contact between an abuser and a survivor, unless it's the choice of the
    survivor.  
    
    You say you're not close to this person, and have no idea where they
    are in the process of healing.  I don't think you can do any good by
    approaching them directly and apologizing or whatever for the abuse
    without knowing this.  If they haven't recognized the abuse, they might
    be angry at you and hurt that you brought it up.  If they are healing,
    you don't know what stage of healing they're at, or what kind of
    reaction they'll have.  The only thing I can think of, is if you know
    someone close to this person, you can let them know how you feel,
    and let them advise you on what you can do.  I know I would feel
    horribly threatened if my abuser approached me.  I'm honestly afraid I
    wouldn't be able to control the violence of my reaction; I'm also
    afraid I would be paralyzed and not able to do anything.  I would be
    really angry that my abuser thought he could achieve something by
    apologizing.....I mean, he couldn't actually expect me to forgive,
    could he?   this is a *very* touchy subject...it's taking alot for me
    not to say some very nasty things...i don't know you and i don't know
    what you did, the associations are just very dangerous.
    
    I think you also need to think about what you would really do?  It's
    hard to tell what, if anything, the abused person needs from you, and
    that's really the key, isn't it?  If you know someone close to the
    person, you could try to find this out.  Maybe they even want to be
    close to you, for all I know.  Maybe they just never want to see you
    again.  Maybe they feel violent toward you...I know I've thought about
    that before.  There are also people whom I see as accessories to the 
    abuse, that I wouldn't mind if they paid for my therapy... But 
    everyone's needs are different.  I just don't think you should act 
    without knowing more about where the person is..
    
    this just brings out all kinds of nasty thoughts about what i would
    like to be able to do if i could get my hands on my abuser!!!!
    
    cheryl

    additional point.
    I can imagine a repentent abuser, feeling that she owes the victim the
    responsibility of 'coming clean', going to the former victim to
    inform him of what he had to put up with. (and perhaps implicitly, how
    he now can get on with his life). Thereby providing an
    expiation/atonement as well as a good deed.
    When the victim is ready to address the abuse, be able and ready to
    'fess up and accept the responsibility. Until such time as the victim
    is ready to address the abuse, and demonstrates that be addressing the
    matter with you, the responsibility is one that I feel you have to
    suffer in silence.

    re: .1 (Cheryl)
    
         I'd like to respond more fully but the time doesn't allow me
    to right now.   Superficially, however, your answer does absolutely
    nothing for the person doing the abusing.  Some people are victimized,
    as we've discussed before, and need to heal from that, correct.  But
    *many* times the victimizer feels sorrow and remorse for a wrong-doing.
    This person is healing, too, and deserves that opportunity.  Perhaps
    the person or people victimized will never forgive that person, 
    perhaps society never forgives that person, but *that person* is in 
    serious need of forgiveness...SELF_forgiveness is paramount.  It
    would be real nice if all wrongs could be forgiven and reversed.  This
    is something we'd all desperately like to see, but it doesn't happen. 
    AS the victim cannot easily* reverse the damage, neither can the victimizer
    (as you pointed out.)  But that doesn't mean that either needs to
    suffer endlessly, hopelessly, until death somehow makes it all go
    away.  
         Recently I told my son that I was sorry for several mistakes 
    I'd made earlier in his life (he's 20 years old.)  There are lots
    of things I wish I hadn't done or wish that I'd done differently.  
    But, I continued, there was absolutely nothing I could do to reverse 
    some of those things.  I felt bad about them, and would work hard to
    never repeat them (should another similar situation occur,) but I
    couldn't erase* them.  However, now, at this point in time, it is
    up to HIM to discover those things which "his father did to him
    (or didn't do, etc.)" and for him to come to terms with it or them.
    Further, even though now as an adult, or near-adult, he has no
    particular anger towards me, that the child and adolescent within
    him MAY STILL have that anger, resentment, shame, hatred, etc.  
    These parts of the self could and will have a life-long impact on
    him, as it does on all of us, and therefore need to be brought into
    harmony.  He is, however,  capable of going within and rectifying 
    these situations...I know because I have done much, much work in this 
    realm in regards to my own past (childhood and adolescence.)  So,
    even though he may say "my dad is okay" that that statement may not
    be true from his 6-year old or 14-year old perspective.  Those 
    perspectives stay alive unless and until they are released (and I
    refer readers to listen to John Bradshaw and others to get a deeper
    understanding of that which I'm talking about in case it doesn't make 
    sense.)  But it can be done.  And only he can do it.
        As for me, my part is in progress.  I've done parts and have more
    to do.  But I won't let myself feel the destructive guilt that 
    I could feel...in part because the anger underlying the guilt has
    now been released (again, with lots and lots of self-work.)  And
    even if he were to attempt to "guilt-trip" me (which he definitely
    has not) I would not enable him by submitting to it.  
         The noter in .0 is entitled to her remorse and to her
    self-forgiveness and to go on with her life.  We all make mistakes.
    This is not something to be ashamed of if that is no longer the person
    who you are.  Regretable, perhaps, but not to beat oneself up for.
    Change is important, however.  False forgiveness serves no one.
    It must be genuine, and the change must take place.
    
    Frederick
    
    

    
    The abuse I've suffered from my father sounds a lot like what the
    person in .0 described -- not sexual and not very physical, but I did
    feel that the threat of violence was always there.  There were a couple
    of quite violent episodes, but mostly he could just raise his voice
    and slam things around a bit in a way that let me (and my mother and
    brother) know that we had better steer clear.  Mostly, my father was
    emotionally abusive -- distant and critical.  Never passed up an
    opportunity to say something mean -- he said mean things about my
    body, and he also tried to deflate any good feelings I had about
    my accomplishments.  Dad, I got a solo in the Christmas play.  If only
    you could do so well at your lessons.  Stuff like that.  He also
    gave my mother a lot of s*it about me when I wasn't around, so I felt
    responsible for troubles in their relationship -- that guilt got
    reinforced by my brother and mother, too.
    
    Anyway, if my father suddenly saw how hurtful he has been -- as the
    person in .0 seems to have seen, I would want him to say:
    
          Justine, I've treated you very badly, and I'm sorry.
    
    I don't dare even let myself fantasize about hearing more.  Have to
    stop now.
    
    Justine

When I confronted my father about the (sexual) abuse that he did to me,
he admitted it.  That was very surprising to me, because approx 95% of
the abusers don't ever admit it.  He also apologized.  I think it was the
first time I have ever heard him apologize to anyone.

This helped me.  It didn't take away the damage he did to me, but it helped
my self-perception and is helping me heal.

I would suggest that you look at the book, "The Courage to Heal".  It is
about sexual abuse, but may still be helpful.  There is a section there
for the abuser, what you can do/not_do and say/not_say.

Good luck.

   Carol

    
    Justine's note hit home with me.  My first reaction to your note was
    that I'd just like to know what happened.  I'd like my mother to help
    paint a picture of my childhood.
    
    CQ

    Your victim may have blocked it out already. Unless they reach out
    to you, I am leary of the good you can do them now.
    Consider this as well:
      I believe in the concept that it is a cycle. If you are strong
    enough, look back within yourself to find where you began.  Address
    your personal pain.  Find your reasons. If you attain that
    understanding, then you may be even better versed in the depth
    of what you did.  You may also have more of an idea of what to do
    for your victim should he come to you.
    Cindi

This is being posted anonymously for (a different) member of our community.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
To the basenoter:

I hear your pain and I understand it.  I too abused my son in the years 
that I was drinking.  By the time I sobered up my son was 10 years old 
and very angry, with every right to be angry.  For the 
first 3 years of my sobriety I tried to be a better parent, but since I 
was not aware of my own abuse issues, the memories were repressed, my 
behavior towards him didn't change much.  To make a very long story 
short, his anger finally came to a place where my physical well-being 
was threatened, he was practicing satanism and was very abusive back to 
me.  I had to send him to live with his father, it just wasn't working 
between us any longer.  That was 2 years ago.  In that 2 years I have 
been able to work on my abuse issues, particulary my sexual and physical 
abuse issues and now I understand that combined with my alcoholism I 
couldn't have possibly done differently.  Family patterns, etc.  The 
only pattern of abuse I didn't carry on was the sexual abuse, thank God!

My relationship with my son is tentative at best today.  He has alot of 
anger that he is not willing to work on.  There is alot of work that 
needs to be done in therapy together.  He lives 3,000 miles away and has 
no desire to return here to me.  I wish with all my heart that I could 
have provided a better childhood for him, that he could have all the 
things a child deserves, a nurturing, safe home, lots of activity, 
encouragement in school.  But the bottom line is that I can't get that 
back.  What I have to do today is continue to stay sober, work on me and 
trust my God, the one that I understand, and trust that in the future my 
son and I will have a better relationship.  I can't change the past and 
I can't change him.  I can only hope and pray that the day will come 
when he is ready to work on this and we will be able to have a better 
relationship.  In my own recovery from abuse I have had to come to 
accept that it is my responsibility to heal from my stuff.  My son is 15 
years old and it will be his responsiblity to heal from his stuff.  But 
he will have something I don't have, a mother who is sober and is 
willing to go to any lengths to make a better relationship with him.  
When it is time for him to confront me about my abusing him, I will be 
able to work on it with him.  I just have to be patient and wait for him 
to be ready and that's the hard part.  In the meantime, I will work on 
myself and continue to grow in my sobriety.


    

    And if you have good evidence that your son is practicing Satanism,
    if that's the case, your son is a very, very dangerous man.
    TURN HIM IN!

    this topic hurts, even me, I have not been hurt in the way you folks
    have.  Please excuse my asking this, but I do not understand one
    thing... I have gathered from various things I have read in =wn= (over
    time) that one aspect of how a target of abuse feels, is guilty -- in
    the sense that the target internalizes the abuse (sometimes, not
    always) and thinks him/herself responsible for it, that s/he deserved
    it.  I do not understand why all (it seems like all) the responses here
    have told the repentant abuser to steer clear of acknowledging
    responsibility to the child.  It feels to me as if it could help the
    child by making a start at removing that self-blame.  If offered
    without pleas for mercy, for forgiveness, for a new start at being
    chums; if offered without (and this could be clearly expressed) the
    expectation that now everything should be okay, couldn't this be a
    positive step for both?
    
    I'm motivated to ask this, partly because it seems to me that part of
    the anger of the child would be that the abuser could never admit to
    having been, having done, wrong.  I realize that the child may not be
    ready to hear the message at the time it would be given.  But the
    message would be there for some future time.
    
    I apologize for any tender spots I may have hit with this question.
    Hugs to all who have responded (and didn't) to this topic.
    
    Sara
    

    My mother subjected me to emotional abuse until I was 16 and left home
    for college.  She physically punished me 4 times during those 16 years,
    each time carefully planned to inflict a maximum amount of pain while
    leaving no lasting physical mark.
    
    My mother admits that she did a few things wrong and that she is very
    sorry.
    
    My response has been that I know she did her best, I love her very much
    and I wish her all the best.  But that I do not wish either of my
    parents to be anything more than a VERY!!!!!!!!!!!! peripheral part of
    my life.
    
    My best case scenario would be for them to accept that I wish to lead
    my own life and that what happened, while forgiven, can never EVER be
    changed or 'made better.'
    
    They cannot give me back my childhood.  There is no second chance at
    the past.
    
    If they wish to be a part of my life they will not crowd me.  If they
    crowd me I will cut them off without a backward glance.  I will not
    allow them the chance to hurt me further.
    
      Annie

        And if you have good evidence that your son is practicing Satanism,
        if that's the case, your son is a very, very dangerous man.
        TURN HIM IN!
    
    Turn him in?  For what?  I wasn't aware that practicing Satanism was
    illegal.
    
    D!

   To the writer of .0,
   
   My past make me wish for many things, most of them are of the should
   of and didn't type.  Everyone here has made comments I might have said.
   Carol's suggestion of getting a copy of _Courage To Heal_ is amoung the
   best.  You can't save someone from themselves unless they wish to be
   helped.  I know, I've been lucky in life.  Many people have tried to
   help me, but until I came to terms with my abuse accepting that help
   was beyond me.  
   	
   You'e asked for help, that's a big step.  Good luck and be kind to
   yourself.
   	
   	Peace,
   	Allison

   PS:  The noter in .8.  When the abuse I suffered became clear to me,
   	my therapist asked me what I would have wanted from my mother
   	if she were still alive.  All I wanted was for her to be well
   	again and to understand my anger while it lasts.  

    the kind of Satanism I have in mind is the kind that includes illegal
    sexual practices, blood sacrifices, child prostitution, child
    pornography . I concluded from the earlier note that that was the kind
    of Satanism that the mother had in mind.
    
    			thnx for opportunity to clarify
    			herb

    re. Sara
    
    While I was living with my parents and still a child, I felt pretty
    isshy about being depised and a loser.  Because literally _everyone_
    adored and loved my mother, the fact that I was the target of such
    abuse seemed to be a pretty clear indication to me that it was me, and
    not she, that needed to come clean or become better.
    
    I didn't buy into a lot of what she said, but with the love and caring
    of many who loved me I was living and surviving and building a bridge
    to freedom at my earliest opportunity.  Head down, one day at a time,
    with a goal at the end.
    
    If my mother had come to me during the period during which the abuse
    occurred and acknowledged her guilt, I would not have believed she was
    doing anything more than upping the ante in her systematic demolition
    methodology. It always began with "God knows I've tried" segued to
    "and still you are <insert something useless, hateful, or demonic>." If
    she had come to me and acknowledged guilt, I would have heard
    internally "you are so bad that now you've made me bad too."
    
    After I was out of the situation, I had the luxury of examining and
    dissecting and evaluating that was not possible when my emotional
    energies were entailed in getting through each day.
    
    That was when, for a time, I needed and craved an acknowledgement of
    the abuse.  I needed the validation from my abuser that the abuse
    happened.
    
      Annie

      This is being entered for the basenoter.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Thanks to all who have replied.

      I guess I need to be a little more specific to get any advice I can
      use with this.

      Cheryl, while we aren't close, avoiding interacting with him it all
      is kind of out of the question.  You see, he's my brother.  He also
      hasn't expressed any desire to avoid me.  We call eachother on
      birthdays and occasionally at other times, etc.  I think he classifies
      what happened to us more as bitter sibling rivalry than abuse, and
      as Sara said, probably assumes some of the responsibility himself.

      From the age of 9, until I was 15 and our parents finally figured out
      what was happening and seperated us, I was put (forced) into a
      parental role toward my brother.  There was quite a large age
      difference, and after my parents divorce, they saw me as basically a
      free nanny.  Where my brother was concerned, I had all the rights,
      power and responsibility of a parent, without the maturity to deal
      with it.

      I resented being forced to be a parent so early (although I didn't
      realize at the time that was what was happening; I thought every older
      sibling had to babysit her or his younger sibling 4, 5 or 6 times a
      week, all afternoon and evening.)  When I was younger I resented the
      attention he got from my parents (even though I was always the
      "favorite") and when I was older I resented that I couldn't have a
      normal childhood and hang out with my friends.  At the same time, I
      was also subjected to abuse (by people other than our parents) and
      sometimes neglect (by our parents.)  My brother was also subject to
      this and together we formed a bond.  He trusted me implicitly.

      And I abused his trust.  I took out my resentment against the world,
      against our parents and against our relationship out on him.  Being
      much older, I was able to convince him that I was the only one he
      could trust, and if he ever tried to tell, he would get in trouble,
      not me.  (It usually worked out that way, too, because my brother has
      learning disabilities, which made it difficult for him to communicate
      with others, and so I could always convince our parents I was
      blameless.)

      And to answer Cheryl's other question, as to why I want to "make
      amends"?  Yes, I have both selfish and selfless reasons.  On one hand,
      I want to make it better for him.  On the other, I have been learning
      more and more lately about my own less than fully functional childhood
      and realizing that I have a lot of resentment against my parents.
      Among other things, I blame them for the abuse I wrecked on my
      brother.  I'm not sure I can forgive them until he forgives me, because
      in the case of the damage I do to him, I don't feel forgiveness is
      mine to give.  Yes, I feel guilty and responsible; but I want to
      get on with my life, and I want him to get on with his.  I want a
      way to appease my own guilt without hurting, and preferably helping,
      him.

      (I'm sorry this is so long.  I've been thinking an awful lot about
      this lately.)

    re: Frederick
    
    This is a very sensitive issue for me, as it is for any survivor, as I'm 
    sure the anonymous noter understands.  I read anon's question as being,
    "what can I do vis a vis the person abused to atone for my abuse?" 
    rather than, "what can I do to heal from being an abusive person".  
    
    What I was trying to get at, is that these need to be separate things.
    I do think the abuser can heal, and needs to heal, and is able to feel
    sorrow and remorse.  If I gave anyone the impression that I did not
    think that, I apologize.  I think an abuser who is trying to heal has a
    responsibility to inflict no further abuse on hir victim.  That if it
    is healing for hirself that the abuser is seeking, it should not
    involve the victim...it should be, like you said, self-forgiveness.
    Seek therapy for yourself, but don't involve the victim unless that's
    what the victim wants.  
    
    Regarding Sara's question about survivors feeling guilty and why
    wouldn't an admission of guilt from the abuser help heal:
    
    Healing is a very long and complex process.  There are no hard and fast
    rules about how a survivor will react; I just think you need to know
    more about where the person's at to know if they are at a point where 
    the admission of guilt will help.  I think it would probably help
    almost everyone at some point, but not at others.  If you haven't 
    recognized the abuse, I think an admission of guilt on the part of 
    the abuser would be very threatening and traumatizing...not admitting 
    to yourself you were abused was your defense against feeling, having 
    that stripped away by your abuser would leave you defenseless in the 
    face of someone who already makes you feel helpless.  If you've only
    recently recognized the abuse, and are just getting in touch with your
    feelings, I could see an admission of guilt on the part of the abuser
    as disempowering.  It's hard to feel the right to feel anger when
    you're used to feeling guilt, and anger can help you heal.  If your
    abuser admitted guilt before you were able to work through some of your
    feelings, you might experience conflict between feelings of anger and
    more guilt, because the person apologized, so why can't you forgive and
    forget and get on with your life?  That would make it harder to get on 
    with healing.  One thing the literature says fairly often is that
    forgiving yourself is necessary, but forgiving the abuser is not.  
    Often the abuser is someone you love, or feel like you should love, 
    so that introduces all kinds of internal conflict; you may feel
    obligated to forgive but unable to.  If the abuser is looking for
    forgiveness from their victim as part of their own heeling, I think
    that places an unfair burden on the survivor...and if the survivor
    doesn't show forgiveness, that could impact the abuser's healing. 
    That's why I was so adamant about asking the abuser to think about what
    they wanted to get out of the interaction.
    
    I don't know if this is at all helpful.  I know it's all coming out
    more than a little confused.  I just thought of one thing
    more that is important to me...healing is about regaining reasonable 
    control of my life.  It's very important to me to control when and how
    and with whom I talk about abuse and my healing.  If I talk with anyone
    about it, I need to think ahead of time about the kind of responses I
    want and what I can handle and what effect it will have on me, and only
    then can I decide if I really do want to talk about it.   Because if I
    get the wrong kind of response, that throws me back into doubt and
    shame, guilt and bad feelings.  Sometimes, I have to ask for the kind
    of response I want.  I guess the worst thing about having the abuser
    initiate an interaction, is that I wouldn't have that control, and that
    would make me nervous and upset and too anxious to get anything out of
    it.  I'd probably split and not hear a word the person had to say.  I'd
    probably be mentally hiding in the closet. 
    
    We're all different, I think you just need to know more than anon
    indicated in order to act.
    
    cheryl

    in case of confusion, I was still writing .17 when .16 was entered, so
    nothing there addresses it.
    
    I don't have time right now to answer .16, but thank you for your
    reply...it helps a great deal in understanding where you're coming from
    and having more sympathy with your ordeal.  Hugs and good luck, it
    sounds like you've suffered more than a little abuse yourself...it must
    be awfully difficult for you to work through being both a victim and
    survivor at the same time.  
    
    Cheryl

    
    Cheryl,
    
    I think you've expresed a lot of what I've been feeling about this.
    As hard as it is, I think the person in .0 needs to separate her/his own
    healing from what s/he wants to offer to the brother to maybe help his
    healing.  In a way, I think a person has to have forgiven him/herself
    (at least partly) before s/he can offer a sincere apology.  In other
    words, if you're hoping to get something back from the survivor in
    exchange for your apology/admission, then maybe it's not time yet for
    you to talk.
    
    I know that it would help me if my father apologized to me, because so
    much of the anguish for me has been feeling like I was crazy --
    something my entire family (including extended family) has conspired
    in.  Everyone admires my father, but it has always seemed to me that
    they're afraid of him, too (at least my mother and brother have been).  
    No one wants to take my father on, tell him he's a tyrant, and I
    have been expendable.  So hearing from him (especially from him, but it
    would help to hear it from other family members, too) that he made
    mistakes, that he was too hard on me would help -- though I have been
    able to do a lot of that work on my own.
    
    Maybe one important difference is with the nature of the abuse.  If a
    person has been physically terrorized by his/her abuser, then any
    approach could feel threatening.  I am not physically threatened by my
    father, so although I risk disappointment when I see him, I don't feel
    physically afraid.  Perhaps the basenoter could think about that as
    s/he makes this decision.  Another consideration might be whether or
    not the survivor is in (or has been in) some kind of therapy himself.
    If he has support, then contact might be ok.  The main consideration
    about whether or not to initiate contact should be (IMO) -- will it
    (or might it, you can't know) be a good thing for him?  If you are
    close to anyone in your family who is also close to your brother, you
    might sound them out to see how your brother is doing.  
    
    Justine
                                                            

    This is for a member of our community who wishes to be anonymous at
    this this time.
    
    Justine - Womannotes Comod
****************************************************************************

My case is, perhaps, somewhat unique.  I was abused (mostly emotionally;
I can only think of one case of outright physical abuse) by my mother.

My father traveled a *lot* on business trips, and was frequently away
for long periods of time, although he was more likely to be home on
weekends.  Even when he was in town, he often entertained customers
in the evenings.  Things were different when my father was around; when 
he was out of town it was another story.  However, one common tactic was 
for her to start in on us right before he came home (if he would be
home that night), so he'd come home to see us yelling at her and/or 
being uncooperative (usually not helping with dinner so we didn't have 
to hear here rant about how inadequate we were).  The one instance of 
physical abuse I remember took place in the afternoon.  She was sitting 
on me, holding my neck and shoulder and banging my head against the floor.  
Afraid she'd totally flipped out and was trying to kill me, I started 
hitting her back and trying to push her off me.  When my father got home, 
she told him that I'd hit her, for which I was duly punished.  He got 
even angrier at me for lying when I tried to tell my side of the story.

I should have known, I thought at the time.  The set-up was one of her
most typical patterns.  Lying to my father about her role in arguments
with us was another.

It was no secret that my father didn't like traveling so much.  Several
times I tried to tell him what was happening when he was gone,  in hopes
that it would sway his decision to stay in such a travel-intensive job.
It never worked; he always refused to believe me.  (In later years I've
wondered whether he knew about the abuse but found it convenient to
ignore it, or genuinely believed my mother was telling the truth and we
were not.  He'd often intervene when he was home, which is why I always 
believed it was just a matter of getting through to him.)

Needless to say, my mother has never acknowledged that she did anything
wrong, although I'm pretty sure she has some guilt pangs.  She clearly
realized that outsiders would find the way she normally treated us
unacceptable - whenever we had guests, she always treated us unusually 
well.  Unfortunately, however, she hasn't changed her ways -- my sister 
and I have just increased the distance.  When my sister started seeing a 
therapist and tried confronting my mother, I got a call from my father 
late at night (on a weeknight, past all of our normal bedtimes), telling 
me that my mother had been talking to my sister earlier that evening, 
and was now crying hysterically in a corner.  He insisted that I refute
what my sister had said.

Under the circumstances, I would be very suspicious of my mother if she
tried to apologize or make amends directly.  I would assume it was just
another attempt at a set-up -- either an attempt to get me to say "it's
okay, just forget about it", or an attempt to reassert control.  What I
would really like to see her do is tell my father what went on, and that
we were telling him the truth all along.  Then I'd like him to apologize
for both of them, and perhaps indicate a general willingness to be more
careful in the future.

I'm not sure what the parallel for anon(1) would be.  Perhaps you could
tell one or both of your parents what went on, and let them decide
whether to talk to him.  I would not offer to make amends directly -
chances are good that an abuse survivor would not have the presence of
mind in such a situation to give the (in my mind) only correct response,
which is the same one Nixon was given when he offered to help the Republican
party in the elections after Watergate: "Thank you, but I think you've
done enough already".

    I'm going to try to write this without freaking out...it's a very
    tender spot for me.
    
    I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.  The situation is entirely
    different from teh basenoter's but I feel the recovery process is
    relevent.
    
    Nobody in my family abused me (to the best of my knowledge -- my Uncle
    Sidney is a child-molestor but I don't think he ever got his hands on
    me)  However,  my parents sent me to the camp where I was abused by a
    counselor.  I have only started remembering it these past four months,
    piece by piece, fragment by fragment, panic attack to panic attack.
    
    Now I am living with my parents for the summer, and while the 22 year
    old in me says "Logically, you cannot blame your parents for your abuse
    -- they did not know, they had no way of knowing,"  there is an 8
    year old inside of me who is crying and screaming "Mommy, why did you
    send me there??? WHY??????"
    
    Nothing that they can do will change the injury he has suffered and
    suffered in silence for the past 14.  It took a year of therapy after
    surviving an attempted rape too get to the point where I can remember
    this.  They want to help, but they can't.  This is MY pain.  This is MY
    reality.  I've lived with it now for 14 years, and *I* have to find my
    way to healing.
    
    They are very upset.  They feel guilty for having "failed" somehow in
    their "duty" to protect me, but I can't help them with that.  I have to
    deal with my reality before I can let their pain in this become a
    factor.  Then, maybe then, we will be able to reconcile their guilt and
    feelings.  Am I selfish?  Maybe, and I've really tried to keep them
    from seeing or hearing too much of what I'm going through, but I can't
    always do that for them.  I havve to take care of myself now.  I have
    to heal that frightened 8 year old.
    
    What I hear from the basenoter sounds similar in a way to my parents --
    there is a guilt for having "failed" even though you were given an
    unfair task at so young an age.  You have a right to your pain and
    confusion, but I can't see how it will help to include your brother
    into your healing at this stage.
    
    The brain is a funny thing...it lets us cope with things when we are
    ready to cope with it.  If your brother has not come to terms with
    *his* feelings and *his* reactions to what happened, then this is not
    the time for a reconciliation.  He has to forgive himself for what
    happened before he can even try to forgive you.
    
    I'm reminded of a friend of mine who was sexually abused by her
    grandfather and physically abused by her father.  The father had been
    abused by that same grandfather and when she was 20, he turned around
    to my friend and, with all anguish, asked her why she couldn't feel
    sorry for *him*  Her response?  Someone should.  But it COULDN'T be
    her.  She had no foregiveness for him.  Not then.  Maybe not ever.
    
    Basenoter -- you need to seek help and find your way to healing. 
    People need to feel sorry for you too, but don't try to make your
    brother a part of that healing unless he is absolutely ready for
    dealing with your role in his abuse.  You won't help either of you.
    
    Too much hurting in our lives...too few roads to healing...
    
    with love & hope,
    
    Daniel

     
    I asked my "inner child" what would she like to hear:
    
    I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to hurt you.  You were such a bright, pretty,
    girl and I was mean.  It wasn't your fault. You were more than good
    enough.  You are good enough now.  I like you very much. I'm sorry.
    
    Just in answer to anon's question, what would you like to hear.
    
    Kim

I wish everyone well that has been abused or has abused and is is
receovery from it.  I am very moved by these stories and people
attempts to rise of of the muck from thier childhood. Thanks for
sharing your stories.

peace,
john

This response is being entered anonymously for a member of our community.
    
    Ann Johnston
    =wn= comod
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
	To the basenoter:

	This is rather long, but I think you need to know some background 
	in order to understand my response.

	In the past couple of years I've discovered that I was abused the 
	whole time I was growing up.  I hesitate to limit the amount and 
	type of abuse I've suffered to just emotional with a little physical 
	thrown in because I keep remembering more and more.  My therapist is 
	very patient and helpful and I know I'll come through this - I have 
	to in order to survive.

	I can't help but feel that in some places in your note you're 
	trying to minimize the damage - "....I didn't sexually abuse him 
	or torture him - it was more of an emotional abuse of power, and 
	physical only to the extent of control..."   

	Believe me, emotional abuse leaves very deep scars too!  Sometimes 
	they feel worse because you (the victim) don't have anything concrete 
	to "show" for your trouble, nothing to look at to say "yes I've been 
	abused, see my scars".   This can even bring you to doubt your own 
	sanity, thinking "gosh, if there's nothing to see, did it really 
	happen or did I imagine it."

	It took a lot of years before these thoughts and feelings started 
	surfacing.  Right now I have trouble facing my abusers, much less 
	talking to them.  I need my time to settle a lot of things for 
	myself, if either of my abusers approached me in the manner you're 
	suggesting, I personally don't think I could handle it.

 	Maybe there's a little sour grapes here, but I truly think you 
	should sit back and not say anything right now.  So what if it's 
	a little painful, remember, you've inflicted pain yourself.  The 
	child may not remember now, and may never remember.  If and when 
	he does, let him work through it, he will confront you when he is 
	emotionally able to do it.  To bring the past to the forefront 
	before that time can be potentially devastating.  You may bring
	to light hurtful feelings that his mind has graciously hidden
	from him to be released at a later time when he is healthy enough
	to work through them.  

	Please, suffer your shame in silence until your victim is ready
	to deal with it.  If you need to get it off your chest, write
	a letter but don't mail it.  Hold onto it until the appropriate
	time.  But please remember, apologizing won't change the past. 


	To Sara in .10:

	Yes, the abuse victim feels responsible for their abuse - somehow
	they did something wrong and "asked for it".  The victim needs 
	time to realize and understand that they were *not* responsible
	for the abuse they suffered.  Once they've come to terms with
	that, then they can get on with accepting (or not!) apologies
	or acknowledgment from their abusers.

	Even today, if my abusers came to me and asked to be forgiven,
	I'd probably have the same reactions as Annie in .15 - suspicious
	of the same abuse, just a new tactic.


	To the other abuse victims here - peace and goodness to you all....

	Signed,
	Another Victim

    re .22
    
    
       yes, I think that is what my inner child would like to hear also.
    
    however, I must agree with those who wrote that it must come with no
    expectations of forgiveness.  I have heard that from my ex and I feel
    he says it just to be forgiven.  I need to hear it from him and my 
    mother and my sisters, but with no pressure on me to forgive.  

    
    Please everyone keep in mind that the basenoter was a child
    him/herself when the abuse happened.
    
    I believe that anyone who was ever an older sibling of a
    sibling 1-6 years younger is, in fact, guilty of this to
    some degree during the growing-up period.
    

    I believe in action.  They speak louder than words.
    
    You probably can't say anything to your kid that'll make him more
    forgiving or less damaged.  What's done is done.
    
    You and he do have the future though.  Take it from here.

    Can we go to the future until we've healed the pain from the past?
    
    I feel that healing that is part of moving forward, but you can't dump
    it all behind.  It's an integral part of the abuse person's reality.
    
    Daniel

to the base noter:

I was given about 15 years of hell (constant, unbeleivable verbal abuse)from 
an older sister that hated me because I was born. The situation sounds very 
similar to yours - both of my parents had to work, and they left me in my 
sisters care (*knowing* how my sister was).

I obviously cannot speak for your brother, but I know as a child I blamed
my sister for the pain; as an adult I blame my parents for not putting a stop
to it. After a few years of not speaking to my sister, we have gradually gotten
closer...I honestly believe those years have left more scars on her than me...
I didn't feel that way about 10 years ago, but as an adult I see alot of things
alot clearer now. Sometimes I wish she would say she was sorry for the things
she did, but mostly I realize that she has no idea what kind of pain she caused
me. Or maybe like you, she is just afraid to bring it up. 

At any rate, I think the most you can do is try to develop an adult relation-
ship with your brother. Not an older brother type thing, but a *friendship*.
It's a pretty safe bet it won't happen overnight and he might not trust you 
(sure, you want to be my friend...what do you *really* want?), but it's worth a 
try.

dee 

    
    
    The thirty-something person I am says I've healed or resolved most of
    the pain left over from childhood.
    
    The child within still would like to hear "I'm sorry. It wasn't right. 
    You were good, and I wish I had been better."  Even more, that child
    would like a hug, or some equivalent.  That child may push away the
    hugs in distrust or anger, but more than anything, my child wants to know
    thatthe hugs would keep coming, that the hugs can be trusted.
    
    Your brother may not be ready (ever!) for frank discussion or even a 
    frank apology, but "hug equivalents" may help... to start his
    path to healing, and to help yours.  You mentioned you write about 2x a
    year, call on Birthdays, etc.  ..... Call a few more times, write a
    letter for no reason, drop a card in the mail. 
    
    I think an important results of any kind of abuse is the receiver of
    abuse feels less worth; and the child within continues to carry that,
    no matter what the rational adult does.  What makes YOU feel good?  For
    me it's the things above - hug equivalents - Letters, phone calls, etc.
    What are yours or your brother's hug equivalents?
    
    OF course don't innundate the post office or the telephone lines; start
    small.  But I truly believe that addressing the unspoken issue of
    feeling worthless can help the healing process.
    
    Jamd