Conference turris::womannotes-v3

The breast tissue is supported partially by a set of ligaments called
Cooper's ligaments.  Breasts that are unsupported, especially those that
are larger or are allowed to jounce severely when a woman is running 
without proper support, tend to droop (sag) more  nd sooner than very
small breasts or breasts that are supported by a bra (ordinary or
athletic, as appropriate).

This phenomenon is referred to as Cooper's droop.

-d

    Thanks for the info., -d, but tell me, does that "droop" actually
    matter, physically? I realise it may do cosmetically.
    
    Also, if anyone is sure I need a bra, can they recommend a brand or
    style that will help _and_ be comfortable. I thought maybe one of the
    new wide-strapped styles would hold the weight better, but they all
    seem designed for small sizes.
    
    Alice T.

    Decent Exposures, in Washington state, makes comfortable, cotton
    bras in a variety of colors, up to size (I think this is close) 58 and
    HH. If it doesn't fit properly when you receive it, they alter it for
    you free. You can have it altered again later for a nominal charge.
    
    Back to our regularly-scheduled discussion.

    Personal note: I always look askance at arguments about how bad it is
    for women's breasts to do basically anything but be "torpedo t*ts".
    (Watch old Perry Mason reruns for the full effect on TV actresses.)
    It's kind of like when they told you to not to do athletics because
    you'd harm your ovaries. (This from men whose analogous parts couldn't
    be less protected by their bodies if they were attached to the nose, or
    something.)  It's quite easy for the male "medical" establishment to set
    up and "prove" a standard that has more to do with male sexual fantasy
    than women's comfort.
    
    --DE
    

    well when I went shopping for (er) foundation garmets :-) a few weeks
    ago (in Marshalls), I found a severe dearth of actual functional and
    comfortable items.  The functional ones (ie, underwires) have always
    been very uncomfortable to me, and there simply were no, um,
    unaugmented (unpadded :-) comfortable bras available.  Since I shop for
    clothes rarely, and for lingerie even less often, I compromised... but
    went for comfort.

I don't know anything about whether "Cooper's Droop" has negative
physiological consequences (<>does bad things to you ;-);  personally,
I get backaches if I go braless for too long.

If you decide that you want to find a comfortable bra that fits, I recommend
you go to a store that specializes in um, er, "foundation garments," as it's
more likely that there will be a wider selection, and those speciality shops
cater to the non "32-36 ABC" crowd.

I don't know where you're located.  Here in the Boston area, there's
a chain called Lady Grace, where the women who staff them *actually
know how to fit you for a bra*.  Some of them are so good, that they
can tell me (accurately) what my size is just by looking at me.  I don't find
their prices to be out of line for well-made bras; in fact, their prices beat
out the discount houses for pre-teen models (yes, my daughter's turning into
a teenager :-( :-)

Bobbi "gee I'm glad the deadline passed for corset wearing:-)" Fox

Unfortunately, Decent Exposures isn't readily accessible to Alice, who
is located in Reading, England.  :-(

Alice, if Cooper's droop is not a psychological handicap for you, and if
it is not a physical discomfort, then I see no reason for you to conform
to someone else's idea of what you should look like.  If part of your
needs is a desire to be attractive to a MOTAS who would prefer that you 
wear a bra, then that, too, is your choice.

-d

Other things being equal (which they often are not) whether or not a women is 
prone to Cooper's Droop depends a lot on heredity. Take a look at the older 
women in your family. If they do not droop, chances are you probably will not,
either. 

Really! I remember reading this in a magazine in a doctor's waiting room. (They
didn't use the term Copper's Droop, however.)

May you inherit strong ligaments.

Bruce

    The only thing I don't like about going "free", is the
    look of the, er, gee, I don't quite know how to say this
    delicately.....When you get cold or the friction of the
    cloth rubbing your breasts makes the "You knows" come
    to attention. B-)  
    It takes away from the nice lines of clothing the models
    model for you, to see these two nubs sticking through
    what would otherwise be a sleek, smoothly flowing blouse
    or whatever.
    It is uncomfortable for me to go too long without one,
    but I do like to once in awhile....
                                
    
    

    This might be an apocryphal story, but, I heard somewhere that
    the uplifting bra shape was designed by Howard Hughes for Jane Russell
    in his film "The Outlaw" as he felt she drooped too much.
    As he was an aircraft engineer, the resulting profile is not
    surprising.
    
    

    When you get cold or the friction of the
    cloth rubbing your breasts makes the "You knows" come
    to attention.

You wouldn't be refering to NIPPLES, would you?

D!

YRH,

In addition to ruining the appearance of your smoothly-flowing line,
erect nipples also cause a great many men to think *thoughts*.  :-)

-d

    hahahahahahahaha!!!!!
    
    I just remembered this semi-formal family affair I got dragged to as a
    teen, in '68 or so.  I REFUSED flat out to wear a bra.  My mother tried
    to convince me to wear those little circular band-aids over 'em.
    
    
    
    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    hoo ha.  that was funny!

    Why was that funny?
    I've heard that is a common thing to wear band aids to smooth out
    the contour... when going braless, it is a common practice among 
    college girls. I've never gave it a second thought.
    

    re: last few
    
         I have a friend (a woman) who owns a very expensive motor
    home and rents it out to film crews, etc. (for commercials, movies,
    etc.) and told me that one day the director was upset because
    of the cold and asked if she had band-aids on board.  (The 
    commercial being filmed was supposed to reflect summertime...and
    as anyone who has been near San Francisco in the summer knows,
    it's nearly always winter in San Francisco.  ;-)  )  The band-aids
    were necessary to cover the erect nipples of the women being filmed,
    in case this wasn't obvious.  Sometimes nature is just too natural.
    
    Frederick
    

    well this was in '68 remember, when it was scandalous for a girl (I was
    16 or so) to have her nipples showing through her dress.  I was
    supposed to be wearing a bra, not for support (which I certainly didn't
    need!) but for DECENCY's sake.  I thought that was silly.

    
    
    	Soo, not to derail this discussion, but does anyone here
    	perchance know WHO invented the bra anyhow? Has anyone
    	here (besides me cause I have a terrible time with these
    	things) considered "re-engineering" the design to make
    	it more comfy?
    						curiously,
    
    						   kim
    

    Didn't Life magazine have the entire history a year or so ago?  Or was
    it just a photo opportunity?  
    
    >Has anyone considered re-engineering the design to make it more comfy?  
    
    Since when has woman's comfort been of any great importance?  Now if 
    you're talking about women's appearance, there's lots and lots of work 
    going on!  We got your lace, we got your neoprene, we got your lycra, we 
    got your seed pearls here, we got your underwire, we got your front closure,
    we got your padding here, we got your shirring, we got your teddy, we
    got your tap pants, we got your bodystocking, we got your camisole...
    
    Comfort?  Huh?  What's that?  As Dorian once said, we're talking the
    big PM, here!  (pleasing men)
    
    S.

    I dunno who invented the bloody thing, but places like DEcent Exposures
    and other manufacturers who make 100% cotton bras (along the lines of
    "Jogbra" and friends - more or less support, depending on your needs)
    have already begun the redesign process...
    
    

    Kim
    
    A number of people claim to have invented the bra. In the rather
    (in)famous article on the anniversary of the bra put out by Life
    magazine they picked the woman who they felt was the most likely
    candidate. I don't recall much about her, except that she apparently
    made the first one out of handkerchives and ribbons. Does anyone
    rember that article better than I do?
    
    Bonnie

I hope if you use band aids you use the ouchless kind.

Bruce

    
    
    Why?  There's no hair there.
    

    re: -1  Maybe not according to Playboy...
    
    S.

    re .24, *Really*, Sandy?  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    somebody want to enlighten the child?

    He could enlighten himself if he wanted to.  But the fantasy is always
    much more fun than actual women.  Don't let it get out that women have 
    pores, too!  And that hair grows in their armpits and on their legs...
    
    ;^>
    
    S.

Re: .19

> we got your front closure

Said with a sneer about pleasing men?  Sorry on this one, Sandy, but
I must quote good ol' Sportin' Life here, when he said/sang, "It ain't
necessarily so."

I know a woman who, for whatever reason, is incapable of fastening her
bra behind her back.  With a back-closure bra, she fastens it around her
tummy with the cups in back, slides it around, and fits it onto her
breasts and shoulders.  For this woman, front closure is a dream come
true, evidence of serious redesign that works.

-d

Gee, I knew all that already! My mommy gave me a proper education.

Brucie

    Well, for one thing, they can make straps that do not
    dig a path into your shoulder, or not put plastic adjust
    clips that will end up on the shoulder on them.  Or put
    itchy lace along the cups, or line the cups with itchy
    material.  They could make those nice matching sets of
    bra & underwear in other sizes other that 32AA.  I have
    yet to see a black bra in my size without an underwire.
    Underwires are torture.  I like seamless, too.  Thick
    material for the cups, so the nipples don't come through
    the bra.
    
    HRH

    I hate bras....I wear t-shirts and they are the most
    comfortable.....and I have since stopped being concerned about my nipples
    showing.....I wear clothes that I am comfortable in and not wearing
    a bra is part of that.....the half t-shirts that you just slip over
    your head are great....and probably less expensive than bras.....
    
    denise
    

    I believe you, -d, and more power to her.  But I don't believe that the
    design was invented for this purpose.  And that's what I'm talking
    about - the motives behind the design(s).  It is not and never was for
    woman's comfort or ease or anything other than men's visual and tactile
    pleasure or for men's emotional comfort, (disguised as women's modesty - 
    something their mothers and sisters can wear), etc.  The motives are
    men's and women are left to simply choose among the resultant designs.  
    That some women manage to find comfort in one or more of them is 
    serendipity.  "Sports bras" are a totally recent invention and most
    women don't wear them around men.  The emphasis is still as it has
    always been.
    
    S. 

    re.30
    
    Speaking as a woman who once had to stuff her 32AA's with old pantyhose
    just to fill them, I must challenge her perception that there are 'nice
    matching sets of bra & underwear' in that size. 
    
     8^} !!!
    
    Why just the other night I was browsing Victoria's Secret [they think
    I'm actually 10 women at the same address!] and found that all of the
    cute little set thingies came in 32-36 B/C
    
    Now there _were_ lots of nice matching sets of cami's and pants for the
    less mounded ... but no brassieres.
    
    Apparently if you don't 'need a bra' Victoria's Secret doesn't really
    want your business ... unless of course you've got some gent stashed in
    the wings badly in need of silk boxer shorts ...
    
    which reminds me, is Attila now too successful to appear in the
    lingerie catalogs anymore?  he was nice to look at ...
    
      Annie

Sandy, for the most part I agree with you, but not on front closure bras.
I fail to see that a front closure bra is more attractive to men (other
than being easier to open). It is of great appeal to women, and I believe
their invention and popularity is due to convenience for women.

I LOVE front close bras!!!  I wish it was easier to find them with 
underwires.

D!

    
    re: .34 (D!)
    
    > It is of great appeal to women, and I believe their invention 
    > and popularity is due to convenience for women.
    
    _I'll_ say!  =8-)

    So perhaps the inventor was a woman who had a desire for more
    convenient defrocking mechanisms in use with her partner(s).
    
    Carla
    

    re.32
    
    While I whole-heartedly agree with your general point, front closure
    _may_ be the one exception ...
    
    I only say this as the number of men I've heard piss and moan about the
    inconvenience of front closure _far_ exceeds those who have mentioned
    any benefit in my hearing.
    
    perhaps the one man that mentioned that 'women look more graceful
    getting out of them' had an uncle on the design team.

    After recent surgery that made one breast very very sore, I took to
    wearing a bra all the time because even the slightest jiggle hurt like
    h*ll.  I lined the cup with a silk scarf to make it both padded and
    friction-free. Voila!  A very comfortable bra with no "happy-nipple
    syndrome".
    
    On the other hand, I frequently go braless, usually do a lot of
    exercise to keep the muscles in tone, and still pass the old pencil
    test. 
    
    Far as I can tell, drooping isn't bad for you, nor is going braless and
    the later does not necessarily create the former.
    
    And then there were the good old 60s when braless was PC and "nice
    nips" was supposed to be a compliment.  Even then I had the ovs to
    growl instead of smile.  :^)
    
      Margaret

    
    The pencil test!?  I'd forgotten about that one. 
    
    Hey Laurie, remember having our picture taken on top of old Mondanock?
    :-)
    
    CQ

    Okay.  You got me.

    What's the pencil test?

    G'Day,
    
    	I believe that if you can hold a pencil under your breast (with
    your breast and not your hand) then you have failed the test. 
    Basically if you are large breasted you are supposed to have these two
    globes that protrude from your body but do not sag at all.  Not really
    my idea of good looking breasts.  Personally, I think a little sag
    enhances the shape of the breast.  It seems to acentuate the curves.
    
    	As for the original basenote question, I doubt that going braless
    is going to cause too much damage even if your breasts do droop a
    little.  However, I think that if you are very large then you may get
    to the point where you are no longer stretching the ligaments and skin
    but more likely tearing them.  This may cause medical complications.
    
    David.  (Who thinks of breasts a lot but never so clinically)
    
    

    
    My mum once told me that women with very large breasts should even wear
    night bras to stop them from sagging!  What a horrible thought!  I
    suppose if you're pregnant and nursing it might be practical though?
    
    Sam
    

    It seems to me that the species survived quite a few thousand years
    without them.  Women do have a longer life expectancy now than they
    did before the bra was invented but there is no documented indication
    of any cause effect relationship.  Now that could be because "the
    medical profession does not study female problems" but ...
    
    Oh, hell, just started another rathole...
    
    ed

    Re a few back on nursing and night bras...
    
    Although some "older" literature recommends this, the current thinking
    is that this is not a good idea, as the bra can put pressure on the
    milk ducts, and potentially lead to the development of a breast
    infection.  If someone does want to wear one anyway (it can help to
    minimze leaking), it should be a soft, not much support type,  "night
    bra."
    
    Susan

    Running or sports bras are another irritation.  Don't the manufacturers
    believe that large breasted women are also active?  Although I wear
    sports bras almost exclusively, it takes three months or so to stretch
    them out to where I not smashed in.  
    
    My other bitch is with otherwise cotton bras stiched with nylon.  Hey
    you know some of us have allergies to plastic on our skin.
    
    Meg

    Thanks for all the answers, Ladies, interesting and amusing.
    
    Re. 3 and 11: You're right, I don't exactly live in walking-distance of
    Decent Exposures, but do you have their address?
    
    Re. 7: What does MOTAS mean? Am I ignorant, or just English? (I expect
    it's the latter)
    
    Re. 13: I do not believe I am responsible for the thoughts of men who
    see me. (My fiance has told me that he does not mind me going braless
    in public, though I must admit he showed a little relief when I told
    him I'd realised no-one actually looks at me.) I believe the only
    person whose actions or thoughts I am responsible for are my own. To a
    certain extent, I will change for my fiance (whose name, by the way, is
    Garrick, and he's truly amazing - he even seems to know more about PMT
    than I do! and _I've_ had problems) - I asked his opinion before I made
    my decision to "abstain", but no-one else.
    
    Thanks again, and I look forward to reading more of your input.
    
    
    Alice T.

        re MOTAS
        
        It's one of a series of acronyms/abbreviations:
        
        	MOTAS	member of the appropriate sex
        	MOTOS	member of the opposite sex
        	MOTSS	member of the same sex
        
        I'm sure if we thought about it, we could up with
        meanings for the other twenty-three letters in the fourth
        position....
        
        Dan

How about we women all put our complaints and suggestions about bras
into one letter to a bra manufacturer and everyone sign it and mail
it off? I betcha the suggestions get consideration. 

Kathy (who gets even more aggravated by the design of women's shoes)

    Good question, Annie.  Where is Atilla, indeed!  "Too famous"?  Can get
    "too much money" now?  I doubt it.  "Too sexy" might be better.  "Too
    thought-provoking" for women.  Makes average men "too uncomfortable". 
    Major no-no.  Back to the greasy, short haired men with big noses.
    So what if Jill Goodacre makes women uncomfortable?  Might just make 
    them work a little harder, right?  Spend a little more money.  Be a
    little less uppity with average guys.  Keep them in their places.  Yah, 
    that's better.  But, uh, let's fire Atilla.
    
    S.

    <set_rathole>
    
    Umm, if anyone knows where Atilla is, I'd like to remind you all that
    my birthday is coming up soon and um.... gee...   I can dream, can't I?
    
    :^)  Margaret
    
    <end_rathole>

    Re .47
    
    Yeah, I'll second that!
    
    Alice

    Happy-nipple syndrome?  giggle, giggle, hahahaha.....
    
    That one tickled my funny bone.....(I must be getting
    slap-happy as I'm on vacation as of 4:00 today :-)) 
                                  
    Re 32AA
    I was only generalizing about the size the matching sets
    come in.....but they are still very pretty, sigh.....
    
    Re sports bras -  I have tried many, but they do not allow
    you to breathe, which is difficult if you are trying to
    play soccer or ride a horse.....:-(
    
    HRH
                          
    
    

    
    	So who's this Attila?  Sounds like I'm missing out on
    	something here!  =)
    
    	I hate buying bras.  I can't wear anything with a lot of
    	lace or lining.  It's gotta be cotton or satin/silk-like.
    	I'd love to be able to go without one but for me it isn't
    	logical.  I'm small-framed and thin but have a fairly
    	large chest.  And try and buy a strapless that's functional?
    	HA! that's a joke.  Underwires are uncomfortable as all get
    	out.  I too, can't find attractive black bras in my size
    	that don't have underwire.  phooey.  
    
    	JJ
    

    
    Well, I did just buy some at Sears that I like.  Simple, front-closure,
    seamless, satiny and spandexy, thin straps and band.  I think Sears 
    usually has a good selection but then again, I'm in the average size 
    range.  As for department stores (for those of you in the Marlborough,
    Mass. area), I've usually been satisfied with Rich's.
    
    CQ 

    
    re: the topic title.
    
    yes, some of us do.
    
    only it's not just nylon scaffolding, 
    it's complex, woven, cantilevered, nylon scaffolding.
    
    -Jody
    

By the way, I highly recommend Bali bras. They come in three different breast
SHAPES as well as many many different sizes. I know it sounds a little funny
(ok - maybe a LOT funny) for a man to be recommending bras, but I've been
shopping for bras for Janice for a LOOONG time now - and what with feedback
from her I'm actually pretty damn good at it, and we BOTH agree. They're
comfortable, they support well, and they look good.

	-- Charles

    But I can't get more than 1 Bali in the size I need!
    
    HRH

    inre .42
    
    Old women's breast tended to sag and end up around their navels
    in the days without bras. I think the question here is do bras
    prevent that, or just give the illusion of preventing that.
    
    Bonnie
    

    set mode/rathole
    
    re. who is Atilla?
    
    how to put this ... he's a professional model in incredible shape with
    gorgeous long thick blond hair.
    
    sounds par for the course, right?
    
    wrong.
    
    he's unique, stands out from the crowd ... actually looks happy and
    comfortable inside his body and in his surrounding [instead of wooden
    and posed]
    
    I've seen in him various catalogs from lingerie to Eddie Bauer
    to bedding linens [this! one was something to behold - incredible and
    canny marketing] to Spiegel ...
    
    Just one woman's opinion mind you, but he _steamed_ off the pages in a
    completely believable fashion no matter what he was wearing or what he
    was selling.
    
    Now he's disappeared ...
    
    set mode/back to regular discussion
    
      Annie

OH!!!

I thought you were talking about Attila the Hun!!  And then I thought I
must have missed something somewhere or was just incredibly dense!

Thanks for enlightening me!

Nanci

    Make that waist length hair!  It isn't just long!  Pant, pant.
    
    His face and body are perfect and good description, Annie, he STEAMS off 
    the pages, comfortable and outrageously sexy - an expectation in men's
    mags but rarely seen in anything geared to women.        
    
    Ralph Lauren's "farmer joes" and anything in Playgirl are a joke in 
    comparison.  Except for one layout Atilla did in Playgirl around 1984 or 
    so.  I was contracting at this small company and a woman in the office 
    papered the ladies room with his layout, (like Seka in the men's room
    at Ralph's).  That's where I saw him first.  Gawd.  He defies the laws of 
    geometry.  Why aren't there more?
    
    S.

    Heck, I thought it was Attilla the cat in the Mother Goose and Grim
    Comics....

Re: .56

There's a Bali outlet store out here that has all sorts of sizes. Is the problem
lack of selection where you shop, or just that Bali doesn't make what you need?

If it's the former, I bet you can write them to find a better distributor.

	-- Charles

    
    
    	er..I don't know who this Attilla person is but it
    	sounds very interesting. However, I have another
    	tidbit of info about the new sports bras that are
    	out. I was shopping in a sporting goods store last
    	night and started checking out those tops that I
    	see women runners wearing? You know, those stretchy
    	things that kinda look like bathing suit tops? 
    	Anyhow, there was a label on one introducing the
    	two women who started that company and developed this
    	clothing item. They said that the first one they made
    	was constructed from two JOCK STRAPS that they cut up
    	and sewed together...I guess those things are soft and
    	pretty stretchy or something. Anyhow, I thought that was
    	very creative of them and the product seems to be pretty
    	popular with the runners here in Colorado Springs.
    
    							kim
    

I rarely wear bras but I use tank tops all the time. They are comfortable and
can be anywhere from firm to loose. I especially like them under T-shirts. 

I second the comments about underwear that's made with itchy stitching or labels.
Doesn't anybody try these things on before they market them? 

And I don't care who they invented it for, LYCRA is a gift from the goddess. I
love under and outer wear made with a bit of LYCRA. liesl

    Okay.
    
    Does anyone have the addresses for Decent Exposures _and_ Bali?
    
    Please??
    
    Alice T.

    slightly imperfect bali bras, underwear, slips etc can be purchased
    through the L'eggs Brands catalog.  I don't order the bras, since I
    have nothing to support, but I do order the l'eggs, hanes and isotoner
    stockings and the imperfections are miniscule and unnoticeable.  the
    prices are pretty good...I hate paying exhorbitant prices for something
    I don't enjoy wearing....
    
    You can call (919) 744-1170 for a catalog or write to:
    	L'eggs Brands, Inc.
    	PO Box 748
    	Rural Hall, NC  27098-0748
    
    Cheryl

re: .63

Fantastic! I wonder how many other woman-owned companies
produce women's bras. Makes perfect sense. Do you have
any idea, Kim, whether this company has a catalog, or does
it only distribute locally.    

Kathy

Re: .67

Decent Exposures is women-owned and -operated, I believe.

-d

    
    And in 26.15 you'll find the adress and phone number for a company
    called Travis Place.  Their catalog includes underwear.
    
    CQ

    
    
    	re: .67
    
    	Kathy,
    
    	I don't know if they have a catalogue or not. Where
    	I saw them was in a store owned by GART Brothers
    	Sporting Goods. Don't remember if they have stores
    	back East.
    						kim
    

          re: Kathy Maxham & the petition

          If you draft the letter, I'll sign it and even try to track down
          the address of a manufacturer or 2!

          re: .52 (JJ)

          >    Underwires are uncomfortable as all get out.

          Speaking of underwires...

          I read an article somewhere.. (Working Woman?) about women in the
          FBI.  It portrayed a woman in an investigation position similar
          to Jodie Foster's in "Silence of the Lambs".

          A case involving a woman's murder was escalated to her team.  One
          unsolved mystery involved the semi-circular marks under the
          woman's breasts.  When the female investigator looked at the
          pictures, she quickly identified them as underwire marks!  This
          had escaped all of the investigators before her ;-).

          re: Annie and Sandy

          About Atilla...

          Could either of you *please* save me an ad with him in it!?! ;-)

                                                  nancy b.

    re: Attilla
    
    I have a book of male models called "not just another pretty face".
    he's in there.  It has casual and model shots of each man, and text
    describing their lives (NOT THE USUAL PLAYBOY BIMBO STUFF like "candy
    wants to be an actress someday and her favorite sexual foods are
    bananas and whipped cream and the thing that turns her on most is men
    who use jackhammers and anything with the word "jock" in it!)
    
    I'll bring it to the next fnc I know y'all will be at!
    
    -Jody

Well *I* can't wait to see it!!:-)

D!, with a soft-spot for long-haired men...WOOF!

    long hair!
    double woof.
    
    -Jody

    
    
    	Ditto D!  I *think* I know who this Attila is now but
    	won't know for sure till I see a pic someone has.
    
    	Back to our regularly scheduled program....
    
    	JJ
    
    
    

    
    Rathole alert...
    
    I prefer short hair, meself. But that may be because the only style of
    long hair I've ever seen for black men, besides the conked James Brown
    look and the radical Don King look, is dred-locks. And those take
    gettin' used to.
    
    Or the Milli Vanilli look...
    
    Frankly, I enjoy seeing a guy with waves in his hair after a night with
    his "do"-rag on. For those who don't know what a do-rag is, imagine a
    dark cloth that drapes in the back and has two loose ends that you pull
    to the back to tie it in place, kinda like Arabian sheik garb. When I
    see a guy walking down the street in one, I know he's planning to
    impress someone that night. And it looks a lot better than a woman in
    curlers walking down the street...

    Fab in Milli Vanilli was pretty fine looking, I thought.  I didn't care
    if he sang or not!  'ren, there's a certain guy in your building who
    doesn't seem to take much gettin' used to...
    
    That does it, Jody, let's plan an FWO 'Woof' lunch or happy hour or
    something.  It's a right of passage, isn't it?  And then it will no
    longer be sexist when men do it.
    
    Sandy

    Mods, if you create a "guys" topic, this goes in it!
    
    Austin Liquors in Worcester has the first ever, (that I've seen), 
    liquor store ad aimed at women.  Shirtless guy in tight jeans, shot from 
    the back.  Nice, too.  Life size picture.  But they *were* discreet with 
    such "deviance".  It's high up on the left wall, in the back.  The
    bims-for-boys are right on the floor down in front, smiling and arching 
    their backs, as usual.
    
    S.

    no, Sandy, I don't think we need a new topic ...
    
    while we've certainly ratholed this one all the way to China, I'm
    having the time of my life reading a _woman's_ rathole in a topic about
    _women's_ needs in _woman_notes.
    
    I have a condo week coming up soon [all to myself] maybe we should
    make it an FWO "Woof" Open House near the mountains and the hot tub.
    
    Right of passage, hell!  I don't give a furry rodent's backside if men
    have 'woof' responses.  I just get pissed when some can't seem to
    separate fact from fantasy and expect women in general to look like the
    fantasy icons.
    
      Annie

    
    
    One way to reduce "sag" is to work on developing the pec muscles.  I've
    been one of those people that has never had to worry about sag, for
    some reason I just don't.  I'm a 36B, but I do notice that the more
    time I spend on developing my pec muscles the less gravity seems to
    affect them, and the MORE cleavage line I have (this is a good thing).
    ;-)
    
    RE: Victoria Secret
    
    VS has quite a few lycra and stretch lace bodysuits and camis that work
    well for just about every bra size up to, I would think a D or E cup. 
    They are excellent for flat-chested women as well.
    
    However, you're right, their bras do not cater to the small or large
    women...
    
    kath

    VS has quite a few lycra and stretch lace bodysuits and camis that work
    well for just about every bra size up to, I would think a D or E cup. 

Hmmm...I have never found anything at Victoria Secret that fits anything
over a D...I'm a D (I mean my cup size, as well as my name! :-) and have
a lot of trouble finding things there to fit.  Unless they are quite loose
one-size-fits-all kind of thing, I usually find bodysuits, undershirts etc 
make me feel kind of "squashed".

D!

    D!
    
       Try ordering from VS catalog.  Their stores do not carry as many
    sizes or selections as their catalog does.
    
    
    
                                       L.J.

    Victoria's Secret is great if you are a size 12 or smaller.
    
    Why can't bra manufacturers make a bra that has straps that stay up.
    All it takes is moving the straps in the back 1 teeny inch closer
    to the hooks.  AND why can't they make a decent support bra in
    large sizes (38DD).  All I can find are the same bras as 32AA only
    bigger.  NO SUPPORT!!!!  
    
    I'm too big and droopy to wear underwire.  They hurt. :-(
    
    Linda
    

    Linda,
    
    Well, I am certainly not "too big and droopy" to wear underwires, and I
    agree, they *hurt*!  
    
    I'll go without, thank you very much!
    
    E Grace

    Gee....I don't find underwires uncomfortable at all.....Maybe I've got
    them on backwards! ;-)  (Not that it would make a major difference
    either way!).....I usually buy underwires because if you don't the
    manufacturers seem to have a need to pad them otherwise!  I hate
    padding!  What's wrong with *just* me!
    
    -HA

RE: Victoria Secret...


	I wear a size 8-10 and have to wear a size LARGE in their lingerie
	because of my size 36B boobs!  Seems kinda strange, I mean, I'm not
	busty but I have to wear a large?  Recently, even the large in
	something I wanted did not fit.  I ended up at Fredericks and
	could wear medium however.

Re: bras

	I hate buying bras!  I currently have two bras and am constantly
	washing them to wear again the next day.  They are wearing out
	quite rapidly but I cannot find a new one that fits!  My problem
	is that I am a size 36B but not a full size.  36A is way too small
	but 36B doesn't fit at the nip... I'm pointier than your average
	bra wearer I guess.  Anybody else have this problem that can
	recommend a bra?  I prefer no padding or seams, no lace (too itchy).
	Front hook is great but I am used to putting the bra on backwards
	to hitch, then turning it around so it doesn't bother me much.

	Karen

    
    
    RE: .86
    
    Karen.....consider buying a bra that is stretch-lace and underwire.
    
    I have two of the stretch-lace/underwire bras from VS and since they
    conform to your own shape, they fit well.
    
    kath

    Decent Exposures
    2202 NE 115th
    Seattle, WA 98125
    
    (206)364-4540 (9am-9pm PDT) 
    (I coulda sworn I saw an "800" number for them somewhere, but I can't
    seem to find it.)
    
    First bra re-make within 1-2 months of purchase is free.
    During the first year, they'll do a remake for $7.00 ("should you (or
    your bra) change sizes...")
    
    
    Travis Place and Decent Exposures have similar styles, but D.E. offers
    more colors, more fabrics, and a much larger size range. For a
    standard, white, cotton bra in average sizes, I imagine either place
    would be fine. For Color selection and size range, go with D.E. (also
    if you need custom alterations, which D.E. does as a matter of course).
    
    Yes, D.E. is woman-owned-and-operated. 
    
    Oh yeah...they offer a cotton knit, and then a cotton velour, which
    they say has "more support" - which it does. (I have several knit, and
    one velour) They also just introduced a lycra model, for those who want
    even more support.
    
    --DE (Dawn Evans)
    
    

    Here's my complaint with Victoria's Secret:  Their underpants sizes run
    *big*!  I bought some size Small underpants there (which is my normal
    size) and they are huge and baggy on my rear-end!  If that's their idea
    of small, well...nevermind.  
    
    Although, I think their stuff is very pretty.  
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I always find the prettiest bras are not available in anything above a
    C-cup (particularly with VS, but other places too).  And I seldom trust
    mail-order things to fit (particularly when it's something as
    personal-sized as a bra).
    
    So I usually go to Filene's.  They're expensive, but they look good,
    they fit, and they last.
    
    -Jody
    

    re:.89
    
    Couldn't agree more.  I recently acquired a small thong from them and
    the silly thing just about fits under my chin!
    
    Their bra's tend to run small and their panites large...who is the
    model for these things anyway?  ;^)
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

    Victoria's Secret L (10-12) M (6-8) S (2-4).
    
    Anyone have a problem with their bra slipping?  Mine are always 
    sliding down in front so my breasts bunch up on top.  I'm constantly
    going into the ladies' room to adjust the bra and pull it up.  
    Doesn't matter which style or mfg. I use.  If going braless didn't
    make some of my clothes fit odd, I would do it at work as well as
    at home.
    
    Linda
    

    re:  Victoria's Secret
    
    I just received an order from Victoria's ...my first in about
    six months.  It seems to me that they have adjusted their sizing
    downward.  I've been buying their stuff for years and have always
    fit comfortably into petites or smalls (I must be a 34AAAAAAAAAA...
    no bras for me, thankyou very much, only camisoles,etc).  But
    everything I bought this time was smaller...camisoles, thongs,etc.
    And I bought my SO a pair of boxers, the same size he already has
    six or seven pairs of from VS, and they were too small.  So, those
    of you who can't find stuff small enough to fit you, try again, you
    might find they fit now....

    
    
    
    One might also mention here that every company has different sizing
    charts...and also everyone has a unique body type.  
    
    What might work WONDERS for one person, might be awful for another.
    
    
    VS undies, ordered in my "normal" undie's size are too small...I have
    to go a size larger with their thongs. ;-)
    
    kat

    I buy Sweet Nothings by Maidenform and haven't had to change in
    years. I get them at Filene's. They're comfortable, no pads, no
    underwire, front closing, and not too expensive. Once in a great while, 
    they unsnap when they shouldn't. Before I found this brand, I always 
    had some trouble or other with what I experimented with. I'm not sure 
    about what sizes they have, as my size is average.
    
    Eileen

    G'Day,
    
    	A timely piece of information form yesterday morning's newspaper.
    
    	Some medical research team (didn't say whether it was a male of
    female team) have concluded that in many cases bras do more damage than
    good.  Not so much in the breast area but the back.  Now I thought
    large breasted women wore bras to reduce back pain etc but they claim
    that the pressure exerted by the straps on the shoulders and across the
    back is worse than the bouncing of large breasts.  They claim that over
    70% of women who complained of back pain were cured simply by not
    wearing their bra!  Recommendation: don't wear a bra until the
    manufacturers can come up with newer designs that spread the load more
    evenly.
    
    David.
    

    
    Once again, I'd suggest y'all to look at Sears.  Karen, we sound like
    we're about the same size.  I've always been not quite a B (or an A,
    when I'm thinner).  Playtex for awhile (may still) had a line of bras
    that I liked called Nearly [A,B,C].  After awhile, I decided I didn't 
    like the fabric.  However, the ones I just got at Sears, I like.  
    They're made of nylon and lycra and are satiny.  Very simple.  Thin 
    straps and band.  Front closure.  Straps adjust in the back.  I checked
    but they didn't have a "name", just a number.
    
    CQ  

    Victoria's Secret thinks a size *10* is a "Large"??  (Do they make a
    "giantess" size?)  Luckily, I almost never wear the damn things - like
    my mother, I am not busty enough that it matters much, so both of us
    only wear them when protocol requires (same times that I have to wear
    stockings - ycch - and impractical teeter-y shoes).  Mother is big on
    camisoles.
    
    /Charlotte

    I bought a bra at VS recently, in a B cup...I am normally an A-.
    I loved it...it gave me cleavage, was silk and lace and and low cut.
    Not at all practical, but perfect for the occasion.  8)

    I have been searching for bras recently and I have to
    FLAME!!!!
    
    What makes these manufacturers think that they know the SHAPE of every
    womans breast?! Molded or shaped cups just DO NOT FIT and I am ready to
    give the companies a call about this!
    And another thing...front closure????? Fine if you don't have a
    ribcage! They don't fit me because of my ribs which are probably larger
    than ... oh never mind! 
    
    MAybe I will just stick to my running bra. The only problem there is that
    it is not cut low enough, it looks like heavy machinery...
    
    The bandaids are sounding pretty good about now....
    
     The search continues...8*(((((

    When I do wear a bra, it is always front-closure.  And I have the
    ribcage from Hell!  (Because of my lung problems, my ribcage has been
    enlarging over the last 10 years or so.  Now, when I lie down....oh,
    never mind!)
    
    Anyway, be hopeful, comfortable front-closures *are* out there.
    
    
    Oh, and bandaids are sort of silly, because you can see the outline of
    the bandaid.  I did it once, then decided "why bother?"
    
    E Grace

    When I do wear a bra, it is always front-closure.  And I have the
    ribcage from Hell!  (Because of my lung problems, my ribcage has been
    enlarging over the last 10 years or so.  Now, when I lie down....oh,
    never mind!)

Hey, babe, nice set o' lungs!

D!

>Hey, babe, nice set o' lungs!

<sigh>

    RE; .96
    Who did they use for the study...men or women???
    

    re.96
    
    oh sh*t ... all this talk of efficient load distribution is making me
    wish I'd kept up my P.E. cert in Civil Engineering ... what an
    opportunity I've missed
    
    re.105
    
    oh, touche!
    
      Annie

    re: .103
    
    �Hey, babe, nice set o' lungs!
    
    Why is it ok in WN when one woman objectifies another woman with a
    comment like this? If objectification is wrong when it's done by
    a man, is it less wrong when it's done by a woman?
    
                                      L.J.

    I suppose, L.J., because sometimes friends tease one another.  If I
    didn't object, I guess I don't feel objectified, aye?
    
    E Grace

    or, maybe, just maybe, because in this specific instance E Grace
    mentioned that her lungs where a cause of rib cage expansion.
    
    or maybe not.
    
      Annie

>    mentioned that her lungs where a cause of rib cage expansion.
    
Or an effect?
    
    
    Nick
    
    

    
re: .102
    
    >  Hey, babe, nice set o' lungs!
    
    yeah, I've heard that one.  "Nice posture" was another attempt at
    finesse.
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  I didn't feel objectified with Diana commented upon her own lungs
    and then followed with that quip - I felt it was self-referential in
    this case.
    

    RE.109 Umm, Annie, are you aware of the slang meaning of 'lungs'?

    set/attitude=on (that's "attitude" with a capital "a" and a capital
    "tude")
    
    Oh, FILTH, my tender sensibilities!
    
    set/attitude=off
    
    I'm back!  What did I miss? ;-)
    
    \D/

    re.112
    
    indeed, yes.
    
    that's why it was a _pun_, silly ...
    
    see also:  bumper bullets, bone strutcha, life vests, yahbos, ta-tas,
               melons, ...
    
    sheesh, Dana! I know I didn't grow up over here, but I didn't just come
    to big city yesterday.
    
      Annie

    re.113
    
    you missed your opportunity to cash in on the BIG bucks by designing a
    more efficient load-distribution system for breasts that is also
    comfortable and is esthetically pleasing [i.e. is more attractive than
    an army issue sling]
    
    [I would say women's breasts, but men have them too so I want to be
    egalitarian ... ]
    
    Oh, now _there's_ a THOUGHT! Make all pubescent humans wear training
    brassieres whether they need them or not. Teach them that not wearing
    them, regardless of need, indicates that they are destined for moral
    decrepitude ... like tomorrow, avoid the rush.
    
      Annie

Maybe, LJ, because she is a friend of mine and I was making a teasing 
remark that has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!

And you seemed to have failed to notice the title...

D!

    re: .116
    
    �Maybe, LJ, because she is a friend of mine and I was making a teasing 
    �remark that has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!
    
    Do you realize what you just said?
    
                                      L.J.

    You should  probably read the title essay in "A Stress Analysis of
    a  Strapless  Evening Gown". First published in the late 50s, it's
    now available again in paperback.

--David

    
    
    
    RE: .116
    
    Then why didn't you send mail instead?
    
    
    
    
    Interestingly enough, this is the kind of thing that is USUALLY the
    case when comments like this are made.  Comments like this are usually
    made between friends who are teasing each other.....especially
    in a conference like this.  However, what people don't realize is that
    they are "performing" their teasing act for well over a 1000 people who
    
    	1.  Don't know these people
    	2.  Don't know they are friends
    	3.  Don't know they are teasing
    
    LJ's right in that the same situation has occurred, in this conference,
    between males and females and it has been severely frowned on.  I
    remember, I did it once and got some angry mail messages about it.
    
    Relax, D!, so what you wrote has been criticized.  That's not a big
    deal, it happens all the time to all of us.  Not only that, most of us
    do things everyday without fully understanding the ramifications it
    could have to  others.  So what......acknowledge it and move on.  Try
    to understand that the way YOU view something is not 
    
    	1.  100% "THE right" way to view it
    	2.  necessarily the way anyone else is going to view it
    
    If the comment was intended for E Grace and her eyes only and wasn't
    open for speculation (or criticism) by anyone else, it would have been
    much wiser to send mail.
    
    
    Just some observations.
    
    kath

    flirt and fluff is a frequent occurence here in =wn=
    
    no matter the personal tastes of the audience there is nothing
    inherently against common practice, let alone policy, in friends
    engaging in flirt and fluff.
    
    regards,
      Ann Johnston
      =wn= comod

    I don't feel it's the gender of the person making the comment at all,
    but rather their relationship.  I have a male friend of mine, wild to
    the core, who wouldn't hesitate to say something like that, (not that
    particular comment but you know what I mean), to me and get away with
    it, no problem.
    
    But only someone that close, male or female, has the right to that level 
    of familiarity.  Without that "s/he's a friend" background, the comment 
    can easily take on different meanings.  It's trust, it's friendship and 
    it's all context.  Not gender.
    
    Sandy

    
    But, Sandy, we all know how timid you are.  :-)
    
    Justine -- a friend of Sandy's

>    Relax, D!

Ahem.  Excuse me, Kath, but it annoys me no end when people tell me to
relax.  You might be interested to know (though I doubt it) that I was
not upset, nor tense, so your telling me to relax was pretty meaningless.

> So what......acknowledge it and move on.

Kathy...why are you telling me what to do???  I *have* moved on, until
you put this note in to bring me back to it.  I found LJ's butting her
head in to a little friendly exchange between E and myself offensive, and
I chose to say so.

> If the comment was intended for E Grace and her eyes only 

It was intended for her, and for the amusement of those who know her
and those who know me.  Since that involves a goodly percentage of noters
here, why should I put it in mail?  And, as Ann said, there is no rule,
either written or implied, against friendly back-and-forth in the file.
For me, it is what makes this file a wonderful place - the friends,
the friendly chit-chat, etc.  I will *not* move it to email just because
you think it would be "wise".

    Just some observations.

Wrong.  You were not obversving, you were *advising*.  *Big* difference.

D!, who makes it a point not to attempt to alter the behaviors of others

    �Maybe, LJ, because she is a friend of mine and I was making a teasing 
    �remark that has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!
    
    Do you realize what you just said?

Yes, I said

    �Maybe, LJ, because she is a friend of mine and I was making a teasing 
    �remark that has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!

I can read what I write, thank you.

Perhaps I don't realize what you *heard*...care to enlighten us?

D!

    Gee Justine, exposed again!    ;^>  ;^>  ;^>
    
    S.

    From a normally "read-only":
    
    Warners makes two models that work well for the "in-betweener".
    
    Model 1035 is standard backlatch, no seams, no padding, ALL stretch
    and very, very comfortable.
    
    Model 1021 is same stretchy material with a tad of added lace but
    is underwired and frontlatch.  Also very, very comfortable.
    
    If your favorite store doesn't carry them ask for them to be ordered.
    As always, they are not cheap but are worth every penny in comfort!
    
    Julaine
    

    
    
    	I recently discovered I have been wearing the wrong
    	size bra (cup size and band size) for a long time.
    
    	This probably caused by my dislike for underwires.  I'd
    	much rather get a larger band size and a smaller cup
    	size than the right band size and be stuck with an 
    	underwire.  After much shopping, I *finally* found the
    	right band and cup size without an underwire, but it
    	wasn't easy!
    
    	The things you learn when you spend 2 weekends with another
    	woman !!! ;-)
    						nancy b.
    

   Nancy,

   Seems due to lack of standards and even consistancy your experience
   is common.  I would think that the manufacturers would attempt to
   describe their sizing and styling in some comprehensive way.  As it
   stands trial and error is about the only reliable way to be sure of
   a fit.  Even then the vendor rarely make the same bra fit the same way
   twice on the same rack, or at least from lot to lot.  

   An then again, like any other clothes item sometime another eye helps.

   Allison

Sorry if this info has already been provided...

For British bra sizes do the following:


Measure yourself around the bust at nipple level, this gives your bra size.
Measure yourself just under the bust.

Subtract the two figures

A difference in inches gives the cup size of

2" = AA
3" = A
4" = B
5" = C
6" = D
7" = E

So, an upper measurement of 36 and a lower measurement of 32 will give a bra
size of 36B.

I've no idea how American or European sizes are calculated, maybe someone can 
provide the methods ?

    I thought you were supposed to take 2 away from the higher number to
    get your "inches", eg, the 36B you mentioned would be 34B.
    
    Alice T.

>    I thought you were supposed to take 2 away from the higher number to
>    get your "inches", eg, the 36B you mentioned would be 34B.
    
Not according to the article I got it from....

    There was a thing on breakfast TV the other day about womens bust
    size, which in the UK is getting bigger.
    They said that something like 75% of all women are wearing the wrong
    bra size. The last two replies seem to indicate why. Not that I've
    needed to, but I've never understood bra sizes. Almost as confusing
    as pre-decimal money.
    
    
    Jerome.

    in re .130
    
    This is essentially the same as a chart I saw in the lingerie
    department here in Massachusetts a week ago.
    
    Bonnie

"What is three'n'six"???"

Well, the obvious answer is 9, but talking British currency (decimal, not the
real stuff!), 3/6d is 17�p.

					Nigel

    Then why not say 17.5p ?
    
    
    Jerome who's glad not to remember old money.

    re .131 
    At least one source (No Nonsense Brands?) i seem to recall the
    instructions calling for measuring _above_ the bust (no bra) for the
    band size, then across the supported bust for the value from which to
    calculate the cup size (bust - band).
    Never did understand why all mfgr's don't just measure the band size at
    the under_bust, where the band is actually worn ...