Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Cathy,
    This is a tough one.  I know exactly how you feel, I grew up feeling
    ugly and I feel ugly alot of the time now.  Sadly, I had a mother who
    hated the ground I walked on and did everything she could to hurt me,
    so my answer to that questions is, IMHO, yes, our parents have a *BIG*
    influence on how we see ourselves.
    
    What I have had to do is really look at what I call "My personal
    identity".  My personal identity doesn't include who I am in the world,
    but how I *REALLY* feel about myself.  Note, I said *feel*, not think. 
    What I really feel is that I am ugly, worthless, the biggest pile of
    sh*t that ever walked.  Of course, I grew up listening to that on a
    daily basis so of course I believed it in my heart.  It has taken alot
    of hard work to realize that mom, grandma and the kids at school were
    wrong.  I don't have to accept the whispers, the ugly stuff that was
    said about me as a kid any longer.  Sometimes I still feel like the
    worlds biggest defect, but it is better today. I am buying into
    that old stuff less and less on a daily basis.
    
    Cathy, a suggestion here.  There are lots of good affirmation books on
    the market today and one might help you.  Getting past our negative
    messages is an inside job.  
    
    Karen

    
    
    another 'left-over' affect of "growing up ugly". 
    
    You walk into a room and two people turn to each other and smile or
    whisper. 
    
    You KNOW they are laughing at you and telling each other to check out
    the dog that just walked in. 
    
    I still can't stand meeting new people because of that. 
    
    One of my WORST experiences happened when I was 16. I had a TERRIBLE
    crush on this guy who worked at summer camp with me. 
    We were standing ourside talking one day, I was actually getting to
    fell that maybe he liked me...
    then all of a sudden, one of the BRATTIER kids comes up to me and says
    "you have teeth like a rabbit" and proceeds to do his rabbit
    impersonation.  Yup...pretty embarrassing...that was good for two or
    three weeks of self imposed solitude telling myself to face facts and
    give it up....
    I still do that. Not all because of 'ugly' but because of 'I'm not
    good at anything. I can't do anything right. I'm useless at all I
    attempt to do' etc. 
    
    Maybe I'll look for some of those books ((in disguise of course!!)
    
    But what do you tell your daughter when she comes home and says "the
    kids are laughing at me and telling me I'm xxxxxxxxxx".
    You can't say "they don't know what they're talking about". You can't
    say " its' not that bad". IT IS THAT BAD IF SHE THINKS IT IS. 
    
    I try to think what my parents could have done to help me. I guess they
    could have said "you're right Cathy. You are ugly". Or I s'pose they
    could have gotten me braces. But, like you Karen, there was a big
    rivalry between my mom and me. She wasn't very supportive of my 'girl
    problems'. She had grown up abused and extremely poor. To her, I had
    everything a kid could want. I think she might had resented that in
    fact.....
    oh well...rambling rambling rambling......
    
    cathy
    

    Cathy, I know where you are coming from.
    
    I was an "ugly child".  It doesn't matter that the adults in my life
    thought I was adorable.  It doesn't matter that looking at pictures of
    myself, *I* think I was adorable.  None of it matters, because when I
    was a child, I felt ugly, and the other kids told me I was ugly, so I
    was ugly.
    
    In third grade, David told everyone in the school I tried to kiss him
    (in fact, he tried to kiss me and I said no) and I was called "the
    kisser".  When I walked over to the swings, every boy in the area would
    scream "it's the kisser!" and run screaming.
    
    My clothes never fit.  My hair was never washed.  My hygeine and social
    graces were non-existent.  Sometimes my parents tried to help me-
    mostly they were oblivious, because such external things weren't
    important as who you were.  besides, they were also abused as children
    by their peers, and they watched helplessly as I repeated their
    patterns, and the most they could tell me was that it got better as I
    got older.
    
    When I was 15, I was hopeless, devastatingly, obsessively in love.  My
    boyfriend said he loved me, but he once said "I really do prefer petite
    girls..."  I never recovered.
    
    Once I got older (college, etc), got away from the kids who told me I
    was ugly, I started getting evidence to the contrary but I never
    believed it.  Every man who told me I was beautiful, I assumed he was
    *really* desperate, and telling me that to get me in bed.  (It was true
    that I tended to attract men who weren't themselves very skilled at
    relations with the opposite sex.)
    
    I slept with every man who looked at me sideways, because I figured
    that was my only "edge" over the attractive women - that I "put out"
    and they didn't.  I became an expert at sex, so that I could draw
    lovers through my sheer skill.  I slept with people I didn't want to
    have anything to do with, just to prove to myself that someone,
    somewhere could bear to spend time with me.
    
    Cathy, you *can* recover.  Today, at 23, I am beautiful.  Some days I
    forget that, but deep inside me is an untouchable core that believes
    I am beautiful.  I put that seed there through force of will.  I told
    myself every day that I was beautiful and lovable.  I opened my heart
    and mind to the compliments...
    
    D!
    
    [I'm sorry if this is a little incoherent.  I'm very tired, and I
    didn't mean to write any notes, but this note touched me deeply and I
    had to rspond.]

    Cathy,
    I use two things that really help me on a *DAILY* basis.  I stress
    daily because if I don't do it daily, I forget :-} and revert back to
    beating myself up.
    
    The first is the affirmation "I am not here to make an impression, I am
    ok just the way I am".
    
    The second is long.  The title is "JUST FOR TODAY"
    
    Just for today I will respect my own and other's boundries.
    Just for today I will be vulnerable with someone I trust.
    Just for today I will take one compliment and hold it in my heart for
    more than a fleeting moment.  I will let it nurture me.
    Just for today I will act in a way that I would admire in someone else.
    I am a child of God.
    I am a precious person.
    I am a worthwhile person.
    I am beautiful inside and outside.
    I love my unconditionally.
    I have ample leisure time without feeling guilty.
    I am loved because I deserve love.
    I am a child of God and I deserve love, peace, prosperity and serenity.
    I forgive myself for hurting myself and others.
    I forgive myself for letting others hurt me.
    I forgive myself for accepting sex when I wanted love.
    I am willing to accept love.
    I am not alone.  I am one with God and the universe.
    I am capable of changing.
    The pain that I feel by remembering can't be any worse than the pain I
    feel by knowing and not remembering.
    
    Cathy, I feel for you.  I understand what you are feeling.
    
    More hugs,
    Karen

    
    
    hey...have you ever done this?
    
    You spend HOURS in front of the mirror getting all 'dolled up'.
    The hair looks great! Your complexion is mysteriously peaches and
    cream. That dress......fabulous...and great legs too!!!!
    
    One last look and you actually
    look....aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh....GOOD!!!
    
    Ok...so you head out with that special someone...you KNOW that all eyes
    are turning to you as you walk into the restaurant. People are
    probably saying "wow...a movie star or something!"...
    
    but then....the WORST of WORST things happen.....you have to go to...
    
    THE BATHROOM...
    oh no...
    
    as you pass by the mirror in the bathroom, IT'S THE WITCH...
    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE WOMAN WHO LEFT THE HOUSE AN HOUR AGO??????????????
    
    Your hair i all standing up in the wrong places. That peaches and
    cream complexion has turned back into a pumpkin....your dress looks
    like you brother is wearing it....and your legs have sprouted little
    'hairlings' all over the place....
    
    You run back to the table with your purse over your face knowing that
    the looks are all wondering who let YOU into the place! The mood is
    gone...the bitch is back....."take me home, I have a headache!"
    
    Seems amazing what the right (or wrong) lighting can do for a persons
    image of themself!!!
    
    Moral of this story?? Beautiful women should NEVER go to the
    bathroom...
    
    cathy :-)
    
    

    Oh boy, can I ever relate.  There are days when I just feel so ugly. 
    And although when I was in high school I hung out with all the kids
    that were considered popular, and I was a cheerleader and into all
    sorts of activities, I still felt like a social outcast. 
    
    A former school mate of mine, who was incredibly beautiful (both
    internally and externally) and was my lockermate through 4 years of
    school, told me many times how ugly she felt.  This girl was the
    prom queen, homecoming queen, you name it, she was the queen of it!
    
    What is up?  I have met so many women who feel that physical beauty is
    unobtainable.  The older I get, the more I feel that people (read: men)
    take the external far more seriously than the internal.  A co-worker of
    mine once told me something that made a profouond impact:  It doesn't
    matter how geeky or dorky a man is, he always feels like only a Miss
    America type is good enough for him.  The older I get, the more I see
    that this is somewhat true.  I don't mean to man bash or anything, but
    take a look at the ideals of feminine beauty we see every day in the
    media, tv, magazines, movies.  Look what we have to live up to in the
    minds of men.  Don't they realize there are REAL PEOPLE under all that
    makeup and under that Victoria's Secret lingerie.  Now I realize that
    on TV and in print ads we also have the male "Marlboro men" types, but
    in retrospect (coming from someone formerly entrenched in a 6 year
    career in the communications industry) those ads are geared towards
    men's egos rather than women slavering over the photo.  (Read:  Smoke
    Marlboro and look like a cool dude ,....!)
    
    I wish we didn't have to feel this way, but join the club.  I haven't
    met any woman who wasn't insecure about their looks.  One thing I'm NOT
    insecure about is the knowledge that inside, I'm beautiful.  And I'm
    smart, too.  No one, not even the passage of time, can take away inner
    beauty and brains ... yet time takes away (in most instances) external
    beauty ...
    
    Tammi (who doesn't know why she logged in on Saturday but I just had to 
           respond)  
    

    Cathy...
    
    Did your jaw surgery help much?  It made the WORLD of difference for
    me!  I, too had horrible buck teeth, and would always get the..."she'd
    be so pretty, if only her teeth were straight.."
    
    Well, after not going to any proms or having any dates (though somehow
    I managed to get kissed 2 months before I turned 16..phew!), three days
    after my high school graduation, I went in for surgery.
    
    I lost weight because my jaw was wired shut and because my appetite
    was gone...maybe it was the drugs and the stress...I don't know..
    
    So, I went to college, got my braces off, lightened my hair a tinsy
    insy bit ("Did you get a haircut??  What ever you did, it looks good!")
    and have never felt better.
    
    It's sad that looks are so important...but if it drives your self
    image, then I think you've got to make them their best.  There are 
    alot of homely women/men out there who keep themselves up so well, and
    have such an air of confidence about them that they appear beautiful.
    
    I was so, so depressed in high school.  I look at things I wrote and
    cry because I feel like I wasted those years in my room eating pints
    and pints of Ben & Jerry's (Cherry Garcia...yummM!).  Feeling sorry
    for myself, getting fatter, and more depressed.
    
    Maybe I needed that catalyst to help me feel better about myself, but
    now, even if I gain a few pounds, I still feel okay.  Only now, I go 
    to the gym instead of eating....
    
    Oh, and the best thing is that you know what I get compliments on ALOT
    lately?  My TEETH.  People who just met me..guys especially (hehehe)
    say, you have really nice teeth, or a great smile.  WHAT AN EGO BOOST.
    
    The most important thing I learned from all this though, is that no
    one was going to love me unless I loved myself.  And that would show,
    regardless of my appearance.
    
    It's really hard to get out of the rut...but I think that once you are
    out of it, it's difficult to fall back in.
    
    Sorry this rambles on...just my thoughts....
    
    sus

    Hey, Cathy,  Never trust the mirror in a public restroom.  It's
    almost allways bad fluorescent lightling !!!  And sometimes the
    angle of the light-to-mirror can make one look 20 years older.
    
      Besides, people are ALWAYS better looking than they believe
    they are !!!
    
    Jack
     

This note is being posted anonymously for a member of our community.

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Wow, this topic brings back some painful memories.

Growing up ugly, well, it aint' easy.  I don't think this was
even a consideration to me until I hit about 4th grade.  That's
when all the teasing started.  I was very lucky that I had supportive
parents, but when I'd come home crying because somebody made fun of
me, the reaction was that the other kids didnt know what they were
talking about, or were jealous or something else which never really
helped.  

Your peers, growing up, can be the cruelest people you will ever 
come into contact with.  No, I wasn't born beautiful, but I am not
repulsive either.  I still get angry at the teasing and humiliation
I endured.  It's not my fault I was tall, or had an overbite (which I
eventually fixed) and there seems to be a need with the "beautiful
people" to fix the blame on the person with these (or other "undesirable")
traits, as though pointing out one's deficiencies can make any difference.
Who knows, maybe it made them feel better about their own lives, but I do
truely resent the hurt caused for nothing more than the pleasure these people
got from feeling superior. I got thru it by not reacting to the taunters, 
but that didn't stop it.  

What D! said earlier about the sexual thing too, boy, did THAT hit home.
I figured that if a man wanted to sleep with me, I must be attractive.  
Well, thank heavens I got past that stage.  

As far as where I'm at now, I can't honestly say that I think of myself
as beautiful, but I now realize that I am an attractive person.  Depending
on the person, situation, context, I am apt to accept most compliments I
receive and for the most part believe they are genuine.  I'm not sure if
that belief extends to my own beleifs about myself, but I think I am getting
there.  It also doesn't stop me from being insecure about the way I look.

I know what Cathy means when she says just once, I'd like a man to want me
simply for how I look.  Even somebody I was seriously invloved with once 
would talk about how pretty my friends are and said to me that I was pretty 
from the inside out.  He couldn't understand why that statement upset me, 
but I figured here's somebody I love very much, and HE can't even tell me I'm
pretty without qualifying it.  I know I should be happy that he loved WHO I am,
but I hated the thought (my own projections of course) that he'd prefer to be 
seen in public with someone who would turn heads.

It's a daily battle to maintain an acceptable level of self-esteem, I just
wish there were easy answers.

    
    
    re .10
    
    yes yes yes..that' it....
    
    people who love you always like to make you feel better by telling you
    that looks aren't everything....that you're really a great person
    inside where it counts....
    these are the same people who trip all over themselves to get a good
    look at some big-chested-blond when you're walking down the street with
    them...
    
    
    ...or that maybe if you dressed more like Mary or acted more like Cindy
    or did your hair more like Bambi.
    
    Sometimes good intentions are the worst!
    
    Cathy
    
    
    
    

    Not everyone can be Christie Brinkley, Princess Diana, or Grace Kelley!
    However, after years and years of practice, experimentation, and just
    plain stubborness, I finally figured out the best way to make myself as
    attractive as possible. You can drown yourself in lots of negative
    self-talk, or you can DO something about it! Your first step was
    jaw surgery and braces...CONGRATULATIONS! (I had all of my upper teeth
    capped..an experience I hope NEVER to repeat, but at least I can
    smile!).
    
    Have you been to an Elizabeth Grady? Elizabeth Arden, Adrien Arpel? all
    of these places offer "total makeovers" and TEACHING CLINICS that show
    you how to apply makeup to hide flaws (just having the makeover isn't
    enough, you have to be taught how to do it). Consider enrolling in a
    modeling or beauty school to LEARN the tricks of the trade...what
    clothes look best on you, what colors etc... Enroll in a "Color Me
    First" course at a local community college to learn what colors look
    best on you, what hair style, what type of glasses etc...
    
    You don't have to do everything at once, but you need to find sources
    to make you feel better about yourself (by looking better) in order to
    build your confidence.  I am totally convinced that no-one is an "ugly
    duckling"...there are TOO many small businesses out there
    (predominately owned by women) to help anyone look and feel good about
    themselves.  Once you project a good self-image, trust me, men will
    notice!
    
    If you want more tips/names of places to contact, feel free to contact
    me off-line.

	I too grew up ugly.  I had curly, messy, not too clean hair,
	crooked teeth with eye teeth like a vampire and I was skinny.  
	I heard every joke about "Pirates Dream, sunken chest" as well,
	and made it to sweet sixteen, never been kissed.  Children were 
	very cruel to me and I had a horrible self image.  I remember 
	once being in the grocery store and some little boy said to his 
	mother "Whats that BOY wearing on his face?" (he was referring to 
	my headgear).  I'll never forget that that kid thought I was a boy!
	Because I was not very popular and also not very atheletic, I chose
	to excel in school because it was the only way I could be better
	than the other kids.  

	Sometime around my sixteenth birthday, I learned how to fix my 
	hair properly, started to fill out in all the right places, 
	learned makeup and how to dress properly.  I actually became 
	attractive.  But, nobody liked me!  Because of all those years 
	of teasing I really did not know how to socialize and made all 
	sorts of social blunders when trying to make friends.  I had only 
	two friends in high school.  I became a cheerleader my senior year
        hoping for increased popularity (cheerleaders always were popular)
	but it did not work.  The jokes about my looks stopped but
	then I was picked on about my grades.  So, I became an airhead.
	I still did well at school but I was a flake, according to every
	body who knew me.  When I finally graduated #9 in my class and
	had a gold tassel, the kids thought I stole it.  I stopped being
	a flake after that.....

	It took me most of college to learn how to make friends.  Since
	then, I tried to do some modeling.  Unfortunately, I had the body	
	for it but not the face.  When I met my gorgeous husband, I could
	not understand what he saw in me since I considered him so much
	more attractive than I was.  Sometimes I still cannot believe it.
	Something happened on my honeymoon that really upset me.  I had
	been swimming and look absolutely awful with glasses, no makeup
	and wet hair.  I walked by some young men who watched me with 
	Steve and made some snickering comment like they couldn't believe
	Steve would marry me.  I couldn't wait to go in, shower, put on
	my contacts and make-up and run into them.  I wanted to show them
	that I was not really unattractive.  I didn't see them again to
	my knowledge.

	My mother made a comment to me early in my relationship with
	Steve.  It was the weekend and I was sans makeup and contacts.
	I was not looking my best and my mother thought that I should
	make the effort to look my best at all times.  I didn't listen
	to her because Sunday is my day off from making myself pretty.  
	Steve stuck around, and he is so supportive of me when I am
	down on myself.  He tells me, even when I look my worst, "You're
	beautiful to me".  Love really is blind.  

	For those of you that know me, you probably think I'm nuts to
	respond to this "ugly" note.  But that's how I feel.  I know
	that, without work, I'm really not pretty.  My eyes are too
	close set, my skin tone uneven, my nose too long; these are 
	things that makeup does wonders to fix.  Put contacts on me,
	dress me in nice clothes, fix my hair and the transformation is
	complete.  Its like armor and I need this armor so that I feel
	attractive.

	Well, done rambling.

	Karen

    
    "ugly" is a feeling that eats you alive.
    from the inside out.
    it colors your relationship with everyone.
    and everything.
    you hate yourself.
    you trust no one to actually like you.
    when people say you're pretty you know they want something.
    because they're not telling the truth.
    
    flatterers and charmers
    are highly suspect
    and probably always will be
    
    "ugly" is the only truth I've known.
    "nice" and "smart" and "clever" and "witty"
    were what covered up the "ugly"
    so that I was not a total outcast.
    
    but even now I don't trust compliments
    sometimes
    even now I look at myself
    and it's branded on my reflection
    even now I curse the fates
    even as I thank them
    for endearing me to the people who are my friends
    in ways other than looks.
    
    even now I have a love/hate relationship
    with ugly/pretty
    I want to be pretty
    without the clamor, the attention, the assumptions of the unenlightened
    	(pretty = dumb)
    
    sometimes I even feel pretty
    but only when I hear it
    and when I can listen
    
    
    I've seldom if ever
    heard it from my own lips
    much less my heart
    
    always not fitting
    outcast
    everything from my crossbite and overbite
    	(8th grade class will - Jody Bobbitt leaves her teeth to 
    	 Bugs Bunny)
    to not having the money or understanding family to get me clothes
    	that were acceptable, so I fit in
    to being overweight
    to not playing the right social games or speaking the correct
    	parlance of the year to melt into the background
    to being too smart for my own good and doing my best to
    	hide or share it
    	(high school class will - Jody Bobbitt leaves her answers
    	where people can see them)
    
    I could not fit into the magical "la machine" 
    that would meld and mold me 
    into part of my peers
    delectible social pat�
    
    I wore none of their masks
    
    and paid dearly.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    	Let's see at age 10 I had 11 teeth pulled, two kinds of headgear
    	glasses and then shortly thereafter, mom cut ALL my hair off.
    	(I looked like a boy)  Instant introvert.  I was shy and quiet
    	to begin with but getting hit with all that other 'stuff' at
    	the same time just sent me into my own little world.  And I
    	didn't come out really until my junior year in HS when the 
    	braces and headgear were gone and I got contacts.  But like
    	someone earlier mentioned, even that didn't help much for
    	awhile because I didn't know how to act around other people.
    	I was thin as a beanpole too.  That was probably the only
    	thing I was envied for during my early teens.  Alot of my
    	friends still had their 'baby fat' or whatever and I was
    	thin.  After I got contacts and got rid of the 'tinsel teeth'
    	I felt a lot better about the outside me and began to work
    	on the inside me.
    
    	Today I'd have to say I'm fairly happy with the person I am.
    	I tend to get loud and obnoxious at times but I tell people
    	I'm making up for my lost childhood.  =)  I have a large circle
    	of friends who I would like to think like the inside me more
    	than the outside me.  I finally like the person I am, it took
    	me 11 years to get there but I made it.
    
    	JJ
    
    	

    Why do people who are not ugly think they are ugly?  Low self esteem.
    Why when people 'fix' the things about themselves that they feel make
    them ugly, stiff feel ugly - even when people tell them they look good?
      Low self esteem.
    What do you do when your child comes home crying because they have been
    teased about their looks or behavior?  Build up their self esteem.
    What do you do when you feel down on your self - build up your self
    esteem.
    What do you do when a friend feels down on her/himself?  Build up
    her/his self esteem.
    
    I think that body-image, self worth, sense of power, etc. are all
    components of self esteem.  There are books out there about self
    esteem in children.  There should be books out there for adults.
    Find a friend who thinks you're great and LISTEN to them.
    If your family isn't supportive, don't internalize what they have 
    to say.  Change the subject when the subject is you.  You don't HAVE to
    listen to anyone you don't want to listen to.  Who made them experts
    anyway.
    So what if when you walk into a room people start whispering.  That's
    incredibly rude and crude.  You're better than them.
    Just remember, no matter where you are - everyone there is much more
    interested in themselves than in you.  How come you're more interested
    oin what they think than in yourself?
    You've got to do a major perspective shift.
    
    

    This is such a wonderful note and somewhat of a tear jerker for
    me, in that it brings back some sad and depressing memories for
    me from high school days, mainly.
    
    I thought I had the worst case of acne ever.  I use to pray every
    night for a miracle, that I'd wake up and I'd have the most clearist
    skin.  I remember when I was 12 and this guy actually had an interest
    in me, but it only lasted during the summer.  When school started
    and he threw a party, and by that time, I was thirteen, he didn't
    want to be associated with me.  I had no figure, no great skin,
    no great talking skills.  From the time I was 12 - 16, I couldn't
    wait for school to end.  I had braces, glasses, no breasts, no great
    clothes, oily hair and acne.  I didn't even shave my legs until
    I was 15.  I was really rather naive.  An art teacher in 9th grade
    even told me so.
    
    It was around 11th grade, when I started working and bought contact
    lenses, braces came off, could afford some clothes and I went to
    a dermatologist, that my self-esteem rose.  A lot of how people
    perceive you does seem rub off on you, no matter how hard you try
    to block that out.  I finally discovered cosmetics.  It was around
    my 17th birthday that I started getting compliments on my appearance.
     I still got joked about my flat chest, but after some years and
    now a refusal to get implants, I feel fine about my breasts.  Tiny
    as they are.   Even still people tell me, if only you had bigger
    breasts.  But it just doesn't bug me that much anymore!
    
    It does hurt when my husband makes remarks about my body and it
    has made me not want to expose my nakedness to him sometimes.  But
    recently, I've started to damn his remarks and to hell with them,
    'cause I know that there were guys that thought my body was beautiful.
    And I think my body is O.K. especially when I'm dancing.  Dancing
    makes me feel very femenine.
    
    And though this is embarrassing to admit,  I'd love to be one of
    those beautiful models, but sometimes if I can achieve that illusion
    I feel lucky enough.   

    I, too, can relate to this note - with a slight twist ...
    
    I didn't grow up exactly ugly but was very boyish looking -
    flat-chested, narrow hipped.  I can remember all through elementary
    school, right up to the 6th or 7th grade, even being kind of popular.  I
    loved to dance so was the first girl to 'slow dance', I had 2 brothers
    so could always get along with the other boys, and I was athletic.  My
    ostracism began because of these traits and was started by my three
    closest friends at the time.  I guess they wanted to lessen the
    competition in high school; though I'll never know their true motive.
    
    Anyway, puberty was in high gear for everyone but me.  I really didn't
    mind much - I was showing horses at the time and my body was just right
    for it - no big boobs to hit me in the chin; skinny legs that looked
    great in britches.  But my 'friends' made sure that I didn't forget
    exactly what I was missing - they'd taunt me in the halls, during class
    (loud enough for everyone to hear before class started), during gym
    (oh, especially then!) - saying 'flatsy, flatsy, you're flat and thats
    that, oooohhh' (I'll never forget that little ditty).  'SLAM' books
    were big then, remember?  You'd write, anonomously, what you thought
    about someone in it and pass it around.  A great way to find out who
    liked you - and who didn't!  It provided another great vehicle to
    spread their opinion of me.
    
    So, I went from an outgoing, aggressive little girl to a very shy,
    introverted one.  I didn't know what anyone thought of me, I didn't
    dare try to find out.  Boys were definitely out of the question.  Who
    would ask out someone that was such a social misfit and outcast - even
    to her own 'friends'?!  I never went to any prom; tried to do some
    normal activities like cheerleading and ski club but it didn't help. 
    If I hadn't had the horses, I don't know what I would have done or what
    kind of person I'd be today.
    
    I even got braces put on that I really didn't need because I reasoned -
    "well, if I'm going to be treated like an outcast, I'll give them (and
    me) at least a reason".  BTW, their taunting became so extreme (they
    started destroying things - they got into my locker, ripped up
    homework, ripped the zippers out of my winter boots, the seams of my
    home ec dresses, etc.) that I finally told my mother who had to have
    the vice president of the school intervene.
    
    Well, anyways, when I finished high school, before I started college, I
    gave myself the best lecture of my life - I said to myself that no one
    in college knew anything about me, no one had heard any 'rumors', I
    could just be me - the me that only I knew - outgoing, loving to meet
    and be with people, even funny - the kind of person only my close
    'horse' friends knew, the kind of person that people liked, given half
    a chance!
    
    And my philosophy worked.  My life has been full of a lot of good 
    experiences and good people since then.  I know I'm a good person, fun
    to be with, a true friend - anyone that doesn't agree is entitled to
    their opinion but its not going to influence mine.  But I can't help but 
    wonder how that high school experience has influenced some of my
    decisions - to get married (i.e., I wanted to know that another person 
    wanted me that badly - sad as it sounds), the reasons for my divorce 4 
    years later, and my feelings in the relationship I'm in now.
    
    I'm sure that anyone reading this that knows me would be very surprised
    at this in that, I think, I appear a very aggressive, confident, secure 
    woman.  And I am - but these shades of wanting everyone to like me have 
    lingered with me and affected me a long time and I wonder if I'll ever 
    be rid of them . . .
    
    Martha              
    I'm in right now
    
    
    
    

    this whole string makes me so sad.  it's so wrong, the way we grow up,
    the way we treat one another.

    I ... I can really identify with all the replies here.
    me too me too me too... %-).  Big Sigh.  I was born
    wall-eyed.  One could hardly tell what color my eyes
    were.  As I got older the kids teased me viciously.
    I grew taller and taller and taller than all the kids
    in my class except for one girl named Colleen who I
    really liked and became friends with.  I had lots
    and lots of freckles... braces.  I was way tall
    and way skinny and because of my eye sight very
    clumsy.  I was also a verbally, emotionally, physically
    and sexually abused child.  ... between the "white"
    children teasing me about being a "red skin" and
    the cherokee children teasing me about being a "white
    eye" ... "hey white eye the yellow is dripping off
    your hair! and it's all over the floor you better
    come here and clean it up"  and they made fun of
    me for my name.  They held me down and tried
    to poke my eyes out with sticks. My grandmother,
    who has the same eye disease that I do paid for me
    to have eye surgery... the doctors kept goofing
    it up and had to perform it five times.  My dad just
    recently told me that I was the first person to
    under go this operation... now I have one eye
    that doesn't move too well and when I get tired
    it looks the other way %-).  Anyway... as a teenager
    I was made fun of and chased and all the usual
    riducle... one particularly mean girl (who is now
    a famous TV person I get to get mad whenever I
    see her) took me as her special prey and hounded 
    me for years with pizzas and phone calls and eggs
    until I hooked up with Johnny who was huge and scared
    everyone half to death (get 'em!!!!).  On the reservation
    the taunts continued until the same... I am
    now a respected member for the "community" because
    of my marriage .. sigh.
    
    Somehow though... though at times I took this stuff personally
    I didn't question myself.. not like I do now!  I just kept
    being myself and I never did back to them what they did to me.
    I remember one boy who used to spit in my face and grab my
    breast and twist as hard as he could whenever he saw me.  Then something 
    changed... I can't even explain it... in English
    class the teacher asked everyone to write an essay about someone
    in the school but not tell who the person and everyone had to guess.
    75% of the kids wrote about me.  It was wierd.  They wrote
    good stuff about me being strong and clever and smart. HUH?
    I'll never forget that.  
    
    with love,
    cheyenne  
    
    

	For those of you who don't know Cathy, the author of .0,
	she's a fox, OK ?

	Steve H

    re .16, something about your note bothers me.  You say why do people
    who are not ugly think they are ugly?  Low self esteem, etc, etc., etc.
    Do you think nobody ever heard all that stuff before.  It's not
    somebody's *fault* if they felt ugly when they were a little kid!  It
    reminds me of blaming the victim again and I'm sick of that!  Rather
    than go on and on about how people should have more self-esteem (easier
    said than done when a bunch of other kids are making fun of you all the
    time), why don't you condemn the cruelty of people who say horrible
    things about other people's looks?
    
    Also, you ask why people should care what other people think?  Well, I
    agree that people shouldn't worry about what other people think to the
    point where they're afraid to do anything.  But, to a certain degree
    everyone does have to consider what others think.  We all interact with
    other people constantly on a daily basis, and if everybody else thinks
    we're a jerk, or a loser, then we won't have any friends and we'll be
    doomed to lives of loneliness.  So, to a degree, I do care what people
    think of me.  I would like it if most other people liked me and found
    me to be an attractive, nice person.  Of course, I want this within the
    guidelines of the person I want to be.  In other words, I wouldn't give
    up my entire sense of self just to please others.  But, it really
    annoys me when people suggest that nobody should *ever* care what
    other people think.
    
    Also, unfortunately, some people really *are* ugly looking in a world
    where physical beauty counts for a great deal, especially for girls and
    women.  Some people have gone through hell because of their appearance
    and I think they should be able to bitch about it without having the
    feelings invalidated.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I guess I can say that I know how you all felt.  I never really thought
    of myself as ugly, as a child.  I guess I just thought of myself as
    ordinary....until I met Susan.  Susan got involved with my dad when I
    was about 10.  My parents soon after divorced.  She used to harass me
    to no end.  She used to call me "Moose" cuz I had developed fully by
    age 12.  I had all my curves in the right places but, I too, had buck
    teeth.  Her and my dad paid for my braces, and then she harassed me
    even more.  She told me the only reason any guy would want me (at 14)
    was to sleep with me.  I wasn't worth anything else.  
    
    I didn't realize all the damage that she did to me until recently.  I'm
    very insecure and right now this overweight woman would kill to have
    the figure of that "Moose".  I used to be able to walk into a room and
    I'd turn a couple of heads and for a while I thought I was kinda cute,
    but her verbal abuse would kick the ladder out from under me and bring
    me back down to earth.  I looked cheap, I looked like a "bad girl" and
    that's why they were looking at me..cuz they knew what they could get. 
    Of course, I wasn't that way, but I started getting into trouble and
    hanging around with the wrong crowd, I didn't feel like I fit in with
    the Jocks and Cheerleaders.  I used to get into lots of fist fights,
    but alot of them weren't my own battles.  I'd fight for the underdog,
    when the cheerleaders would start harassing my friends for being ugly,
    or under-achievers, etc.  I've just now realized that even though I
    wasn't really fighting my own battles, I guess I kinda was cuz I felt
    the same way all those other kids did.
    
    Now, at times....like now, I feel bitter and angry and resentful!  I
    sure hope Susan gets hers, cuz what she did to me is still with me even
    though my Fiance John says he loves "full figured women" and that I'm the
    "greatest" and life just doesn't get any better than this. 
    
    Donna

    I can relate to this topic as well since I wasn't considered to be very
    attractive when I was a teenager.  I was short, skinny as a stick,
    flat-chested, with bushy hair and lots of acne.  I was also painfully
    shy, and didn't get asked out on a date until I was 19 yrs. old.  I
    was, however, born with straight teeth, so I guess I lucked out there! 
    Having just read about all the people with braces, I'd like to thank my
    ancestors for having straight teeth!  :-)
    
    As a child under 5 I was extremely cute (really!)  Strangers used to
    terrify me in stores by walking up and wanting to hug me and pick me up
    and exclaim about how cute I was.  I hated it and hid behind my mother.
    
    But, from the age of 5 on I got progressively uglier until I hit 11,
    when I was definitely *ugly*.  I stayed ugly until I was around 18-19
    and then I noticed that guys who hadn't known me when I was younger
    were starting to pay attention to me and then I knew things were
    looking up.  In my 20's I was pretty much average looking.  I looked
    exactly the same from the time I was 22 until I was about 35, which was
    nice.  I really appreciated looking young for my age for a long time.
    
    Now that I'm 41 I guess my looks have started on the downhill slope
    again but hopefully they won't get too bad for about 20 yrs.  :-)
    
    I've generally been rather confused about my physical appearance
    because I seem to have the type of looks that strike different people
    very differently.  There's never been a consensus.  Some people think
    I'm good looking and some people seem to think I'm an eyesore.  The
    comments I've gotten in my life in regard to my appearance have run the
    gamut from ugly to beautiful.  I've definitely never been able to
    please everybody but fortunately I've never repulsed everybody either. 
    
    But, a lot of people have said some very mean things about my looks to
    me, in the course of my life, and each time it has really hurt. 
    Sometimes they're off-hand comments like - "You just don't take a good
    picture" or in the case someone trying to tell me how attractive he
    found me "it's not like you're the prettiest woman I've ever met" (!) 
    Comments like that sting.  I know I'm not Kim Basinger or Julia
    Phillips but I don't think I'm homely enough to have deserve some of
    the remarks I've gotten.  It must be horrible to be ugly, but in this
    world of Cosmo models it's not always easy being "sorta cute" either,
    especially when only a select few tend to notice that.
    
    In general, I'm sick of my and the rest of the world's preoccupation
    with physical looks!!!!  
    
    Lorna
    

    re .24, Julia *Roberts*, I mean?  (Who the heck is Julia Phillips?!)
    :-)
    
    Actually, I know it was horrible being ugly because I was between the
    ages of 11 and 18.  I think it really makes a difference in the way
    women feel about their appearance on how cute they were considered in
    high school.  Nothing can ever really completely make-up for not having been
    considered cute back then.  Just as some people who lose a lot of
    weight say there's still a "fat person" inside them, I sometimes feel
    that there's still a 75 lb. teenager, with frizzy hair and acne inside
    of me.
    
    Lorna
    

> (Who the heck is Julia Phillips?!)

Well, I thought you meant Julianne Phillips, who once upon a time was
married to one of your favorites, Bruce Springsteen...I dunno if they're
still hitched.

DougO

    DougO,
    
    Nope, they are no longer hitched.  She is in the TV show
    "Sisters" is you'd like to see what she's up to.  
    
    with love,
    cheyenne

    
    
    
    thanks Steve!...you're a sick man!
    
    cathy
    

    Donna, that ... let me rephrase that.  That woman Susan goes on my list
    of people to kill when they invent time travel.  Along with a certain
    third grade teacher.  No she didn't attack based on looks, but managed to
    wreck a life (not mine) just the same.
    
    how can anyone deliberately attack the self-esteem of a child?  It's
    like they know the most vulnerable chink in your armor, and go after it
    like a terrier.
    
    I know such people must have been wounded themselves, somehow.
    I wish I could forgive them.  I can't.

    re:  .29
    "how can anyone deliberately attact the self-esteem of a child?"
    
    I relate to this topic.  The question asked in .29 is addressed
    in a book that literally changed my life.  It's called
    The Drama of the Gifted Child.  I can't remember the author
    at the moment and the book is translated from German to English.
    
    It's a short, but heavy-duty book and I believe it will help
    those who responded here.  I recently saw the book in B.Dalton.
    
    Pat
    

    This note makes me feel so sad.  Life is so unfair.  Good looks count
    for so much yet mean so little.
    
    I sometimes think I'm ugly and sometimes I don't seem to mind what I
    look like, but have never thought of myself as beautiful.  It's funny,
    but I have gotten very little outside feedback on my looks.  Other than
    my mother and my husband, people just don't make comments to me about
    how I look, one way or another.  It seems odd that other people get
    comments, both positive and negative, but I seem to be just plain
    unnoticed.  I've often had the feeling that I don't even exist.
    
    My husband says I'm beautiful, but then I don't believe him, because
    he's prejudiced and "how come no one else says so?"  My mother gave
    me only negative feedback like "you could be pretty if only you'd
    work at it".  Somehow working at being pretty seemed like a futile
    goal to me.  We all have to stand naked sometimes - wet hair, no
    make-up.  I guess I felt, if pretty was something that could be washed
    off it just wasn't worth the effort.  I wanted to be natural,
    unpretentious, the real me -- I wanted to know that the men I attracted
    were attracted to me and not a false face I put on.
    
    I made that choice and, guess what?  Not too many men were attracted to
    me.  Why, why, why do men have such a high standard for looks in a
    woman?
    
    Mary

    re: .30
    
    Author of "Drama of the Gifted Child" is Alice Miller.

    
    
    Don't you just wanna PUKE over that girl who says "don't hate me
    because I'm beautiful"....
    
    I don't. I hate her because she sounds like a pompous B#$ch!!
    I also hate her cause she thinks that I believe that if I simply go out
    and bye Beauty Shampoo, that *I* will look just like her.....
    
    yup yup yup....so now you're telling me I'm Ugly AND stupid!!!!!!!!!
    
    cathy

RE: .31  (Mary Malling)

  First, a preface:  To the best of my knowledge, I've never met you,
  so the only physical impressions I have about your appearance look
  something like this:

                   +-----------------------------+
                   |  =========================  |
                   |   xxx     xxxxxxx     xxx   |
                   |  -------------------------  |
                   |   xxxxx xx x  x x  x x.     |
                   |   xx xxx xx x x x x x x     |
                   |   xxxx xxx xx x x x x.      |
                   |                             |
                   |  XXXXX                      |
                   +-----------------------------+


  But if we met face-to-face, you probably still wouldn't get any
  feedback from me as to "how you look".  Not because of anything
  about *YOU*, but because of something about *ME*.  For a number
  of reasons, I just tend to never comment on a person's appearance:

    1. Making comments about a person's appearance is an absolute
       minefield.  In a recent note, someone was railing against
       another person who said "You look nice today".  Their train
       of thought went along the lines of "Does that mean I looked
       un-nice all the other days?".  Plus, in some crowds, it's
       very un-PC for a male to comment on a female's appearance.
       Plus, you never know what "appearance hot buttons" are
       lurking, waiting to be pushed.  No matter how you phrase
       a complement, there's some non-zero chance that it will
       push somebody's hot button.  It may not even be the com-
       plemented person's hot button -- it may belong to a by-
       stander.  "Oh x, you've lost weight -- you look great!".
       While y, standing by, swears at you under her breath.

    2. I'm afraid my complement would be rejected.  (Hypothetical
       example of a reply: "Yeah, a geek like you *WOULD* think so!")

    3. I'm afraid my complement would be misunderstood and taken as
       innuendo or meaning more than was overtly stated.  "Uhh, no,
       I don't want to sleep with you -- I just thought you looked nice."

    4. I'm afraid that someone might (in direct reply or sometime later)
       comment back on *MY* appearance and it won't be a complement but
       rather...


  I guess I'm "compliment disabled", because, in the end, I find that
  I can't say anything without wanting to wrap it in 97 disclaimers,
  so I take the easy way out and say nothing at all.  I think that's
  unfortunate and I'm working on getting past this, because it's become
  such a habit that I end up never even complementing the people in
  my life that i *KNOW* want to hear complements and that about whom
  I have plenty of complementary things to say.

                                   Atlant

    Boy, does this note hit home!  Yup, I grew up ugly, and have now
    progressed to merely homely....I was always skinny, very skinny, I
    weighed 80 lbs in 9th grade!  I grew up living in the outskirts of
    a small town, so was considered "other" right off the bat.  Add to that
    the fact that I was painfully shy, wore neighbors hand-me-downs, many
    years out of style and had hair cut so short I looked like a boy in
    first grade (my first grade picture can still make me cringe, but I
    think I've burned most of the copies now!).  I was teased all the time
    by the kids with important parents, money, looks, in other words,
    almost all of them.
    
    As I got older, I never got any better looking, still very skinny,
    never developed breasts at all until after I graduated.  Well after
    I graduated.  My mother wouldn't let me wash my hair more than once a
    week, so I always had greasy looking hair as well.  I got no support 
    at home, my parents would always talk about me as if I wasn't in the
    room at all, and the comments on my posture ranged from "she looks like
    a monkey", to much worse.  Of course, after hearing that all the time,
    my posture just got worse and worse.  And, to top it all off, I had a
    *huge* nose!  I felt it entered rooms before I did and the fact that I
    was always taunted about it did not help at all.  I finally had it
    "fixed" a couple of years ago, and while I don't look drastically
    different now, I *feel* so much better about myself.  I don't think
    it's the first thing people focus on anymore, and that helped a lot.
    
    A few years ago I discovered makeup and can use it to play up some of
    my good points and hide some of the worse ones, but I'm never going to
    feel like I'm pretty.  I've also gained about 20 lbs in the past 6-8
    years, (used to weigh 95), and am starting to get compliments on how
    good I look with a little more weight (sounds pretty strange, right?!)
    So, I feel better about myself now than I ever have before, but I still
    have days when I look in the mirror and cry.  Those days I usually
    won't go to work because I feel so bad, or if I do, I'll hide in my
    office all day and not even leave for a cup of tea!  It would be so
    nice if everyone would raise their kids not to judge people by how they
    look, think of how well adjusted so many of us would be now if we'd
    gotten an even break back when it would have made a difference!
    
    The hardest thing for me now is to take a compliment without degrading
    myself.  Basically, I don't believe people when I get them, but I've
    gotten better at just smiling and accepting them.  Maybe someday I'll
    even believe a few of them! ;-)
    
      -HA

The Alice Miller book is really good.  I'd also recommend Dorothy
Briggs.  She has written extensively on Self-Esteem and how it is
formed in kids.

These and other writings and my own work with children have really
sensitized me to how kids self-esteem is damaged by adults when we
invalidate their feelings.  You can see it happening *all the time*.
The last good example of this was at the dentist office where a little
girl was crying.  The mother was basically ordering her to stop
crying and be a big girl and that what would Daddy think if he saw you
crying and you shouldn't be afraid and it won't hurt (a definate
lie!).  There was no acknowledgment of the very real things she was
feeling.  In fact, her mother was directly invalidating her feelings
and her reality.  It's really amazing if you think about it.  Would we
do things like this to adult friends?

When kids feelings are invalidated, the message is that "You are not
OK the way you are".

Like many others I've felt isolated and awkward as a child to various
degrees and at different times (especially early in high school).  Now
I don't have any issues with appearence but sometimes feel ugly and
unlovable inside.  It's an interesting thing.  It's one thing for
people to tell you you're not and to think you're not but to actualize
it or to feel it at a gut level seems to be another thing.

I love telling my current SO that she is a beautiful woman and that
she is a beautiful person (which she is).  Sometimes she does not
believe me but I think it's a wonderful thing to say these things to
others when you really feel them and can be genuine.

The whole question of self-image is a very interesting "spiritual"
issue.  What is it anyway?  Is it real?  Is there really something
called the self? What does that mean.  Buddhists believe that the self
is just an idea like others with no permanent unchanging reality and
that this idea is the source of most of our troubles (individually and
collectively).  Of course, you have to have a (strong, healthy) ego
before you can transcend it.

I've found myself getting really worked up lately over some stuff
happening in my life and getting off-center and off-balance.  Last
Saturday night I was driving home from Rhode Island and noticed that
my car was overheating.  A few weeks before I had gotten a new
radiator put in.  So I was getting really angry at my car for nto
beahving like it should.  I was mad at the mechanics.  I was thinking
about how I could afford a new car and what kind I wanted.  I was
thinking about how I could get to work this week.  I was worrying if I
would make it home before blowing a head gasket.  I assumed I
shouldn't stop because I did not want to add water since I'd have to
wait until things cooled down.  Even the usual trick of running the
heater was not working and it started blowing cold off and on.
This stirred up some other negative feelings I was having and pretty
soon I was in a pretty unhealthy and uncomfortable place.

Anyway, after a tense drive home I parked the car and decided to look
at it the next day.  After some investigation, I saw that the belt
was loose and I tightened it in about ten seconds.  


john

  Re:                      <<< Note 943.23 by DELNI::D_LANE >>>

  Donna,

  Well, anyone who could take that kind of abuse and _not_ become
  an abuser in turn -- who instead sticks up and fights for the
  abused...that's a beautiful person in my book.

  JP

        re .36,
        
>	   In fact, her mother was directly invalidating her feelings
>and her reality.  It's really amazing if you think about it.  Would we
>do things like this to adult friends?
        
        I see it happen in notes all the time.
        
        Dan

I didn't exactly grow up ugly but I thought I was because of the way my
sister and I were treated by our parents.  I was "the smart one" and Cathi 
was "the pretty one".  I was taught to believe that I was ugly by 
omission.  Looking back at it I wasn't really ugly except for a few years
in junior high when I was wearing those weird pointy glasses and braces
with headgear 24 hours a day.  I also always thought of myself as being
fat.  My mother and I had a conversation about this a few months ago.  
It seems she was always worried about me when I was a kid because I
was so skinny!  It seems that my Dad projected his weight problem on me
and I began to think of myself as fat.  

Parents can be harmful to your mental health.  

Nanci

    
    
    so one of the 'residual' affects of 'growing up ugly' that *I've*
    never been able to get past:
    
    
    Scenerio: you're walking down the hall (or street or anyplace) with
    your SO and oncoming, some cutesy little redhead (blond insert
    some cutesy type here).....they start at each other (you've suddenly
    become either his sister or invisible)and they exchange this little grin,
    (the grin means 'we both know I'd rather be with you than THIS
    bowwow...
    
    DRIVES ME FREAKING nuts...and worse still, REALLY hurts my feelings.
    I'd say that, for me, jealousy is one piece of leftover baggage that I
    can't dump. 
    Maybe it's because you can never really honestly believe that this
    person in your life is there because he wants you, but rather because
    there isn't anyone else!! And of course when someone else DOES become
    available, then you'll be old news. 
    All comes back to self esteem and self confidence.
    
    Does anyone else who's shared childhood "ugly war stories" in here 
    suffer from the same phobias??
    
    cathy
     

    -.1
    Cathy,
    I know exactly what you mean.  My fiance, John, tries to be honest and
    open with me by telling me when he see's a "fox".  Of course, it tears
    me up inside and I'd love to make her look like the way he's made me
    feel by "sharing" and "communicating" his feelings to me.
    
    He says he loves the "full-figured" woman, but nearly breaks his neck
    and trips all over himself checking out the "cutsey" skinny little
    chicks.  Then I try to convince myself that he's not lying when he says
    he loves me & my figure, no matter how big I get.  Sometimes it's hard
    to believe...especially when they exchange glances.  
    
    I can find some consolation in the fact he's no Steven Bauer, and I
    know he has his insecurties and his weak link.  He was also one who
    grew up "ugly", so I try to let him enjoy the flirty moment...as long
    as it doesn't feel like a lifetime.  I guess I wouldn't want him to
    take that away from me if I had it, so I try to not pounce on him too
    bad...plus sometimes I wonder if he's trying to make me jealous.
    
    Well, I babbling...
    
    Donna

    Yeah....I always figured Brian "settled" for me......Sigh, it didn't
    help that when we were getting married his mother said within earshot
    of my mother that "she'd hoped he'd do better"!  Of *course* my mother
    had to share that with me!
    
    Actually, my biggest left over from feeling ugly is the feeling that if
    people are talking or whispering or giggling, I assume it's something
    bad about me.  I've been told this is the height of conceit, but I
    think it's paranoia myself! ;-)  I'd love to get over that feeling,
    it's really pretty awful.
    
      -HA

    Heather,
    
    You may be interested to know that when I first met you I was
    somewhat intimidated by how niced you looked and dressed.
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    Thank you Bonnie....How sweet (and a welcome compliment!)  Sorry you
    felt intimidated though....I hope I'm no longer intimidating!
    
    Just for the record though, I work very hard to look my best all the
    time and would be horrified for people to see the real me!  I think
    that's kind of sad, but I'm really pretty obsessed with every hair
    being in place, etc...etc...!
    
      -HA

    Well of course you are no longer intimidating! ;-) 
    
    But part of my 'growing up ugly' story is never feeling like I could
    dress right. I still lose earings accessories, etc. I'm often
    totally uncoordinated or have run down heels on my shoes. As a result
    I used to feel terribly inferior around women who could 'get their
    act together' in re clothes.
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    	Throughout my school years there was a friend of mine
    	that was SEVERELY obsessed with makeup.  No matter how
    	many of us tried to tell her that she didn't need it,
    	she wore it anyway....a LOT of it.  She would wear so
    	much foundation that her fingers, her purse and even
    	sometimes her clothes had makeup on them.  She blackened
    	her eyes with so much eyeliner and mascara that I don't know
    	how she kept her top and bottom eyelashes from sticking 
    	together!  She was so paranoid about people seeing her
    	without her makeup on that one night on a sleep over
    	she demanded that I shut the light off before she came
    	into the room.
    
    	I hear that she has finally found enough confidence in
    	herself that she hardly wears any makeup at all now.
    
    	JJ
    

Random thoughts...

I find that *feeling* beautiful tends to make women appear beautiful...if
for no other reason than that it makes them stand up taller, walk more
confidently, smile more, etc - and those are aspects of beauty.

I have never found make-up beautiful, and I have never found that it 
"fools" me into thinking someone is beautiful when they are not.  I *have*
noticed that many women become dependent on their make-up and cosmetics,
thinking that it covers up their ugliness, and that if anyone were to see
them without their make-up, they would appear horribly ugly!  These 
women that hide behind their makeup never learn whether they are, in
fact, beautiful, because every positive feedback they get they assume
is because of the make-up.  You can't internalize compliments if you feel
you are fooling people into being attracted to you!

And because these women continue to feel ugly, and hide behind their
make-up, they continue to "act" ugly, meaning they walk hunched over,
they look down so you can't see their face, they act apologetic for 
existence, they don't have a purposeful stride, they let their hair
cover their face...so that on the rare occasions that people do see them
without their makeup, they don't get compliments because they are in "ugly"
mode.

It is a viscious cycle, because you have to have a positive self-esteem to
look beautiful, but it is hard to have a positive self-esteem when you don't
feel you are beautiful....

D!

re: .40
>    Maybe it's because you can never really honestly believe that this
>    person in your life is there because he wants you, but rather because
>    there isn't anyone else!! And of course when someone else DOES become
>    available, then you'll be old news. 
>    All comes back to self esteem and self confidence.
 
    I feel like this *all the time*.  In fact, when I'm with a man I feel
    attracted to or have a romantic situation with I will backseat myself
    INSTANTLY if a woman comes up and talks with him.  I withdraw
    physically, verbally, to protect myself from the rejection I fear will
    follow.  There is never any contention between myself and another
    woman.  If he wants her he can have her.  The natural outcome of this
    is that if he stays with me, it's because he wants to, and I *know*
    that.  The bad side is I can't seem to stop doing it.  But I'm trying.
    
    -Jody
    

    re: .40 Cathy,
    
    YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!
    
    re: .48 Jody,
    
    oh gawd... I do the same thing.  You put words to what
    I do and feel.
    
    with love,
    cheyenne

    re .42, you say that you overheard your SO's mother say she hoped he'd
    do better.  When I married my ex, his mother told me to my face, "My
    Bobby could have got somebody prettier than *you* if he'd really
    tried!"  When I told him that, he laughed, and said, "Just ignore her. 
    She's an idiot!"  But, it really hurt me, and I wanted him to tell his
    mother that *he* thought I was beautiful.
    
    I, also, remembered something a neighbor said to me, that really hurt,
     when I was a teenager.  We were looking at pictures of my mother from
    high school and the neighbor looked over at me and said, "Your mother
    was much prettier than you when she was young!"  *sigh*  Sometimes I
    don't know what the hell is wrong with people.  A lot of people talk
    without thinking first, that's for sure.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Cathy - 
    
    What you can do for your child - 
    
    Find SOMETHING that s/he excels at.  Praise her uniqueness.  Give her a
    foundation of acceptance.
    
    By way of example;
    I was no beauty, but I was book-smart.  I knew that.  When the kids
    teased me, my parents had given me a weapon by telling me "you know,
    they're just jealous".  Me and all my siblings had it pounded in that we
    were better than the average {whatever} and we should set our own
    standards high because we were in a class by ourselves.
    
    Naw, I didn't buy it all; but it helped when I was the last girl in gym
    class to wear a bra, get a date, figure out that plaids and stripes
    didn't match, etc...  and longterm?  ... I really *like* me.. even
    the warts are kinda, well.. *distinguished* in their own way, ya know..?
    
                                            
    Jamd 
    
    

Ah Jody, don't feel alone. I do the same thing. It's like I feel a desparate
need to *not* compete. As if any attempt on my part to "win" him is destined to
fail, and besides, if I have to compete he probably didn't want me anyway.

I felt unattractive through much of my childhood so I became the class clown. It
was OK for the clown not to be pretty and I could still be the center of some
attention. liesl

    re: .50
    
    This reminds me of a part in the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy asks the
    scarecrow how he can talk if he doesn't have a brain. The scarecrow
    thinks about it for a second and says something to the effect of,
    "I don't know, but there are a lot of people who can speak and don't
    have a brain aren't there?"
    
    It's too bad but they're everywhere.
    
    Jim C.
    

    
    Reading through all of the replies, it's interesting to see how some of
    us have adjusted to 'growing up ugly' while others of us are still
    trying. 
    Kids can be so cruel, and have such a great impact on each other's
    lives that obviously can scar for a lifetime. 
    
    But its not all the kids as some of us have pointed out. 
    
    How many times have you said "you hurt my feelings", or "they hurt my
    feelings" or "my feelings are hurt"
    to have that all understanding person respond "you're just too
    sensitive" or "you get upset over nothing".
    
    These are usually the people to whom we've bared our souls and just
    want some understanding from; out parents, SOs, good friends. Yet if these
    people so close to us are so blind to the things that hurt us, HOW
    can we be surprised that kids are the same way.
    
    I don't think that alot of times the things that they say or do that
    is truly irrelavant to them, is devasting to us, like the tripping over
    the blond in the hall, or telling us we're over sensitive (now I'm not
    just ugly, but I don't have real feelings either), or telling NOT to
    worry cause they prefer FLAT chested women, or HOMELY women or that
    they like us just the way we are (but I sure wish you looked like
    HER...). 
    
    Maybe I AM over sensitive...yeah, ok, I am, but that doesn't mean it
    DOESN'T HURT.  
    
    Sticks and stones can break my bones,
    But please don't say mean things to me....
    
    cathy
    
    
    
    

    Cathy, please accept that I am saying this as someone who, like many of
    those who replied here, feels very threatened when my partner notices
    an attractive other, and gets very jealous at times...
    
    but maybe the people who care about us tell us we are too sensitive
    because we *are*.
    
    I am beautiful but I am not the most beautiful person in the world. 
    And even if I were, that wouldn't mean there are no other beautiful
    people in the world.  My partner will notice those beautiful people,
    and well s/he should - SO DO I!  It would be rather crass of hir to
    point out people who are more beautiful than I, but if I "catch" hir
    looking, what's wrong with that?
    
    Yeah, it hurts when it happens.  But it isn't *hir* fault.  If it is
    anybody's fault, it is the kids who teased us in school, unsupportive
    parents, society which emphasizes looks and uses beautiful women to see
    everything from cars to toothpaste...my partner's apprectiation of
    another's beauty does *not* mean that my partner doesn't find me
    beautiful.  And my jealousy and feelings of inadequacy surrounding that
    are my problem - something I must learn to deal with.  It isn't fair of
    me to get upset at my partner, because I *am* overreacting!!
    
    If your husband tells you he finds you beautiful, why do you assume he
    must be lying?  Why do you assume he is wishing you looked different? 
    I admire beauty wherever it is, and it doesn't mean I wish that the
    person I am with were different.  Next time he does a double take at a
    leggy blonde in the mall, instead of getting mad at him, try and
    examine your own feelings, and remind yourself that you are beautiful. 
    Maybe your husband can even help - tell him when he looks at other
    women it makes you feel like he doesn't think he is beautiful - ask him
    to tell you that he is attracted to you more often, maybe to show it
    more (use pet names, whistle, buy you sexy clothes, whatever).  Maybe
    give him a safeword to use, that whenyou are out, and he notices other
    women, and you feel particularly vulnerable, you can say that word to
    let him know that you need his support and feedback right then.
    
    D!

    
    
    
     
   let me try to explain myself.
   let me tell you   me
   if you look into my soul right now
   you'll find a little girl, crying
   alone
   if you take the time to talk to her
   she'll tell you what a sad place this is
   she'll tell you how much she hurts
   and how much she believed in you

   if you look a little further
   you'll find a small yellow bird in a cage
   singing sadly
   imprisioned
   alone
   he'll sing you a song if you stay and listen
   and he'll spread his wings
   but there'll be nowhere to fly
   so he'll settle back into the cage
   and sing you another sad song

   and if you really want to know me
   talk to me
   and listen
   listen to what the little girl is saying
   listen to the bird singing
   listen to what I'm saying with my heart

   if you really want to know me
   talk to the little girl
   talk to the yellow bird
   they'll let you talk to me.
   
   cathy
    


   
        

I know a lot of you won't believe this, but all through
high-school, and a lot of college, I believed I was unattractive,
and not particularly likable. I always knew I was smart - smarter
than most people I knew, but I never thought I was particularly
a likable person.

It took years of work, lots of people loving me for what I was, and
the relization that if I really did like and respect these people, and
they told me they honestly liked me and thought I was a good person,
that I should trust THEIR judgement, even if I didn't trust mine.


Trust your friends. Trust yourself. Believe.

	Take the risk.
	-- Charles

    
    Charles,
    	
    Beautiful words.  Accepting yourself and loving yourself is the key,
    it does show.  It does take time to learn that if your early life
    was not supportive.
    
    I relate to what I've read her all to well.  I derived my self esteem
    from the world around me and it wasn't pretty.  If you didn't meet some
    arbitrary and frequently capricious standard for whatever you may be
    you were an outcast and made to feel ugly.  
    	
    Something I wrote during my school days.  It was written to satisfy
    a teachers wish to see if we understood poetry and rhyme in the
    5th grade.  It got me a a "C".  Oh yes, and trip to the school
    psychologist.  Talk about getting your feelings invalidated...
    	
    	Sticks and stones can break my bones,
    	I'll hire an orthopedic surgeon.
    
    	The names I hear and the games I fear,
    	from people trying to play me.
    
    	The names you call me cut me deeply,
    	til I bleed like a fresh cut sturgeon.
    	
    	though I do fear the things I hear,
    	I have no choice but to stay me.
    
    
    	Allison
    

    Does anyone think that your perception of how you look is a matter
    of self esteem? I also thought I was unattractive as a kid (I KNOW
    that was a matter of self esteem, because I can look at the pictures
    now) and still I have days when I think I look terrible or great,
    when nothing has changed from one day to the next.
    
    I also notice that in this string a fair number of those
    of us who thought we were unattractive had people around us who
    made extremely negative comments about us, particularly about our
    looks. I didn't have any negative comments at home, but I did grow
    up with people (not my parents) who didn't make any positive comments 
    either.
    
    And then if you have low self esteem you don't bother taking care of
    your appearance, because you think you're a lost cause anyway.
    
    Eileen
    
    
    Eileen

    re.59 'perception of how you look is a matter of self-esteem' ...?
    
    I haven't responded her previously as I didn't grow up thinking that I
    was ugly.  I always thought I was quite beautiful, more so than I
    actually was ... don't get me wrong, I was I pretty child, I just
    _thought_ I was incomparably beautiful.
    
    And my self-esteem was such that I was constantly struggling to think
    of myself as being _almost_ half as valuable as slime-mold.
    
    So, based upon my own experience I would say that self-esteem and body
    image aren't necessarily coupled.
    
      Annie
    
    

    
    I think that low self esteem is the RESULT of lots of people
    TELLING you that you aren't worth anything.  
    
    Then it becomes a cycle. The lower your self esteem becomes, the less
    you attempt to TRY and make yourself look any better because you
    KNOW it would be a waste of time and you're just setting yourself up
    for a big slap back to 'reality' (the reality being that you're ugly)
    
    I think that is WAITING for that 'big slap' that prevents alot of us
    from going out on that linb and TRYING to look good. 
    
    cathy
    
    

    
    re .34
    
    Atlant - {Warning! you may want to NEXT; a compliment follows!!}
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I really like the way you note; you always are so clear in how you
    express yourself, and your opinions seem to be so consistent and
    wellfounded; I wish *I* could 
    	A) express myself so clearly
    	B) substantiate myself so well
    How do you do it?!
    
    
    
    PS - It's fun reading your notes!
         
    
    Jamd
    :-)

    Grade school thru 8th grade was horrifying for me.  My
    family moved from CA back to MA when I was 7 yrs old.
    Different lifestyle here than there....I also had a
    "Californian accent" -whatever that was-, and spent most
    of my childhood being harrassed by my fellow classmates.
    They are not kidding when they say kids can be cruel.
    They stole or destroyed my things, threw gum in
    my hair, made fun of my clothes, my way of speaking,
    deliberately left me out of things....and the teachers
    were no better, and sometimes worse......this finally took
    a turn for the better when a re-schedule of the school system
    sent us to different surroundings.....We were in 8th grade,
    and the new high school was completed.  They decided not to wait
    for the next year, and re-organized the classrooms and buildings
    for the last three months of the year.  Things got better, I became
    closer to a few friends, they helped my self esteem, we had fun,
    and I went from the "ugly" duckling low self esteem syndrome, to
    at least feeling better about myself (I was one of the few girls
    to have a (male) date for the "Final Fling", our 8th grade version
    of a prom....
    
    Have any of you watched the movie "The Breakfast Club" ?
                            
    It could have been filmed at my high school......my HS
    "stereotyped" everyone into those categories.  "Nerd,
    Bomar, Einstein, Brain" if you were one who was a straight
    A+++ student, "Jock" if you were athletic, "Jockbroad" if
    you were a cheerleader, "Skid" if you wore a black leather
    jacket and smoked (anything), "Geek" if you were one of
    those types that could be picked on, or could be present
    and nobody would notice.  "Individualistic" if you were
    an art, music, or photography person. I fit into the "None 
    of the above" category.  I was in the top 1/4 of my class,
    but not straight A's, I was athletic, and above average, but
    no star, I was artistic, & won two art awards, and had friends
    who were from each "category".  I felt I didn't belong, that
    there must be something wrong with me.  I didn't have the clothes,
    I wore glasses, I felt "Ugly" again.....until I was asked to a
    prom by a Junior (I was in 10th grade), and then the next year,
    by a Senior, in the meantime making new friends, having fun, and
    not caring any longer about what others said.
    
    HRH
                                             
    

    
    IS it growing up ugly or just growing up?
    I remember a song I learned when I when I was coming into the
    difficult years: 
    
    
    Santa Claus at Christmas time
    Mom & Dad love me.
    Candles on a birthday cake
    Blow them out, 
    and your wish will come true
    
    Does he love me; Does he not
    Tell me daisy, do
    Dum-da dum da dumty dum
    dumty dum dumty dum dumty dum      (I forgot the last two lines)
    
    
    CHORUS: 
    Oh to be a child again;
    Oaks from Acorns grew
    one and one made two
    I believed it all
    didn't you?
    

    Where are those who grew up beautiful?  Did we *all* grow up
    ugly? Seems like that!  Where are those cheerleaders I loved
    to hate, you know, the ones with the steady boyfriends and 
    the beautiful clothes.  

    Oh, THEM.  I don't think they grew up.
    
    Sour grapes, I know.  And they probably had other problems, but...
    

I was surprised at the vehemence that greeted the "don't hate me
because I'm beautiful" plea. I thought about it, and tried to put
myself in the place of someone who would say such a thing.

Imagine being physically attractive, knowing that you are, knowing
that it is nothing you have done, nothing you have control over,
nothing you deserve. Then, add to that people who resent YOU because
of how you look. Who are rude to you, who dislike you for something
you can't control. Add to that people who want to use you because of
how you look, people who are interested in you, not for yourself, but
because you have a pretty face or sexy body.

How precious those people who like you for the things that ARE you
must be. How hurtful it must be to have people hate you, out of
jealosy, over something you didn't ask for and can't control.
To be hated, simply because of how you look.

Couldn't it be an honest cry from the heart?

	"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful."

?

	-- Charles

    "people who grew up beautiful..."  interesting...maybe it says
    something about me and my friends but I never knew anyone who thought
    s/he was "beautiful"  The "Beautiful People" were always too aloof and
    nobody was really certain if they *were* beautiful or if we were just
    told that they were supposed to be.
    
    Example:  A friend of mine (background: incest survivor, recovering
    bulimic, bisexual...she's had a lot to deal with if you get the point)
    was doing a road show at college for NEED (Network for Education on
    Eating Disorders)  Her, 3 other women and the college counselor on E.D.
    at Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority -- the five of them and about 100 women
    who were, in the words of "Heathers", Swatchdogs and Diet Cokeheads...
    
    That's a generalization, of course, but in order to be "The
    BeautifulPeople" these women had had to conform to a uniform standard
    until they basically all resembled each other when gathered together.
    
    Funny thing is, I knew several members of that sorority and as
    individuals they were fine, interesting, intelligent and capable.  Get
    them all together and the "beauty mythology" somehow kicked in.
    
    I dunno...weird society.  I'd rather be ugly.
    
    \D/

"Dont' hate me because I'm beautiful."

An honest plea from the heart, Charles?  I rather doubt it, considering
the intense weight-control, skin-care, makeup, and other regimes those
actress/models go through so they can be beautiful enough to appear in
those expensive commercials.

Physically attractive people do not have to be so prettied up.  Many
who are not more than usually attractive are made up to be *really*
appealing for the purpose of selling stuff.

Feh.

-d

I used to think I was dumb
Then I thought I was smart
Now I like not knowing.


I used to think I was ugly
Then I thought I was beautiful
Now it doesn't matter

I used to care what others thought of me
Then I only worried only about what I thought of me
Now I try not to waste my time

I used to carry on my back a lot of bad suitcases of negative self-image
Then I carried around a lot of good suitcases with positive self-images
There's nothing better than being a crazy fool!  Oh shit, I left my
luggage at the airport!  

john

    ref .67
    
    Charles,
    
    I think that the reason that I DISLIKE that "don't hate me because I'm
    beautiful" is maybe MOSTLY because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
    I've seen lots of women who are REALLY beautiful who wouldn't be caught
    dead saying such a pompous self centered thing. 
    
    I can accept and appreciate beauty. I've never disliked anyone because
    of how they look. I just CANNOT STAND CONCEIT.
    
    ahhh....
    
    cathy
    
    

    One thing which may be worth keeping in mind -

    The woman who said "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful" in the ad
    was *reading a script*. Negative reactions to that ad really
    should be directed towards Madison Avenue. You can cite the model
    for poor judgment in accepting assignments, perhaps ... but she's
    probably made big bucks off of that ad (based on how often it
    plays), so from a pragmatic viewpoint she made a good choice.

    
    re .72
    
    Of  course you're right about that Paul. She was just doing her job!
    
    Cathy

    I agree, -d.  Kelly LeBrock wasn't baring her soul, she was speaking a
    canned line designed to be a cheap shot to the unease already built in
    to women's lives in order to sell them Pantene Shampoo.  And she had been 
    shaped, molded, painted and poufed long before she even got the chance.  
    She also got Steven Segal so it's gotta be worth it!  Yowza!  Pass the 
    lipstick!  ;^>  ;^>   But then it IS Hollywood, so she's not likely to 
    have him for long.  (Can you say sour grapes??)  ;>
    
    I grew up with beautiful long blonde hair, deep blue eyes, peaches and
    cream skin, button nose, nice proportions, great legs and perfect 
    white teeth.  People would stop me in public places to look at me and 
    compliment me.  The first day at summer camp they all gathered around
    me and just stared and I had no idea what they were looking at, I was
    only six!  But in high school the other girls threw things at me and stuck 
    pins in me in the corridors.  They taunted and jeered and spread
    vicious rumours.  I was afraid of gym class.  The guys nicknamed me 'legs' 
    and the girls hated me.  And so I hated them in return.  I didn't become a 
    cheerleader because I was an outcast and I hated those dumb, giggly girls 
    anyway and anything they did was stupid.  They all tried to get boys but 
    we were all musicians at home and our home was always filled with bands, 
    equipment and the coolest guys from our high school and others, (Worcester 
    in the 60s), so I never needed to "try".  The boys were my friends and it 
    was natural and easy.  And the girls hated it and let me know it.
    
    I excelled at math and dreamed mostly of two of my math teachers.   They 
    liked me and they were adults and that's what I'd always wanted to be.  I 
    almost went back to my 20th reunion last year only because I wanted to 
    flaunt my still-great weight and thumb my nose at those jerks.  One of 
    them, I swear I'll deck on sight.  But maturity got the better of me, (or 
    fear, I don't really know!), and I didn't go.  I wanted to be ugly in high 
    school.  I wanted to be allowed to be smart, like overweight, mental
    giant, Lisa, and respected for it.  I didn't need to attract the boys 
    attention, I already had it.  We played Yardbirds tunes together and
    built motorcycles in the back yard.  I wanted the girls' friendship and 
    couldn't get it.  I wanted to fit in.  I dyed my hair dark brown.  I cut 
    it off.  Then I tried to be dumb.  I didn't wear makeup anyway so I 
    couldn't stop doing that.  But it didn't work and I hated myself for doing 
    it.  And then began to hate the world for making me feel that way.  And I 
    dropped out of high school.  And I'm only now, in my late 30s just be-
    ginning not to hate the world and the people in it.  I don't think it's 
    growing up ugly that's the problem, just growing up different.  Somewhere 
    in the middle of the bell-curve is just about right.  But those on either 
    end will usually suffer.  And as I approach my 40s and the looks and
    male attention I always took for granted are starting an obvious
    downhill slide, I'm grabbing what I never did in my youth and I'm
    taking what has always been my right but never felt like it.  And I'm
    dedicating it all to Mary - the one I swear I'll deck on sight.  She's
    probably fat now, anyway, with a couple o' screaming kids, no man in
    sight and no job.  And it will serve her right.  Maybe I'll just laugh at 
    her instead.  That should be good enough.  Those days were horrible.
    
    Dredging up what I thought was long forgotten,
    
    Sandy                   

    .67
    
    Charles, thanks for writing that.  I didn't grow up beautiful, but I am
    thin.  And sometimes I feel like saying "Don't hate me for being thin".
    Some people's jealousy can really hurt and I had the same reaction to
    the vehemence of that note.
    
    Mary

    just as a side note...about 3% of women and men respectively have the
    "body type" to be a typical fashion model.
    
    no wonder we're all so neurotic...they hold up such a small portion of
    people as the "ideal"
    
    \D/

    re. where are all those who didn't grow up ugly?
    
    As I said in a previous reply, I wasn't I didn't think I had much to add
    to this discussion as I never felt unnattractive growing up.
    
    People told me I looked 'exotic' -- not a word I'd have chosen for my
    looks, but OK.  When I was a little girl, I had riotous ringlets [no
    frizz] of dark strawberry blond hair, pale porcelaine skin with a
    dusting of freckles, and vivid dark green eyes. I was always shorter
    than my peers and I was slender without being thin -- my kindergarden
    teacher [a woman] told me that she'd never seen such shapely legs on a
    child [I thought she was nuts. after all, I saw them everyday and they
    didn't seem remarkable to me].  In my teen years my hair lost it's curl
    as it reached my hips and deepened to so deep a shade of auburn that
    the red only showed in direct sunlight, my eyes lightened and changed
    to a brownish-green shade that was less startling, and I remained short
    [5ft] and reed-slender, but with the athleticism of one who dances 30
    hours a week.
    
    In my primary and secondary school years, I had friends who were girls.
    But then I went to private all-girl schools where there wasn't a whole
    lot of competition to attract attention.  Most of my friends told me my
    looks were 'beyond fashion' -- this I took to mean that I was pleasant
    to  look at, but was 'exotic' enough to never match "the Look" du jour.
    
    In my college years, there were few women; but those that were around
    didn't much care for me.  My male peers continued to call me unique or
    exotic, but I started to hear 'weird' and 'boyish' from the women. It
    was a bit strange having mostly male friends, but I adapted.
    
    I noticed that when I began to gain weight I began to pick up female
    friends; ditto as my grey hair began to appear.
    
    So now I'd say I fairly ordinary looking with my freckles, my extra
    pounds, my brown and grey hair, and my changeable eyes.  But I still
    don't think I'm ugly.  I just look like a woman in her mid-30's. Since
    that's what I am, I think that's pretty beautiful.
    
      Annie

         What do you feel about body doubles?  (These are the people
    who stand-in for the "star"--usually for stunts but often just for
    looks.)
         And what about the people, men and women, who have their "parts"
    used in commercials, etc.?  For example, some woman who lives in 
    New York who makes nearly $100,000/year modeling her hands.  She
    wears gloves while outdoors, never does housework (her husband does it)
    and pampers the heck out of her hands (to avoid damage, obviously.)
    Is all this anger being demonstrated towards the beautiful person
    still fitting here?  
         As I mentioned in here yesterday, I do massage work.  I have
    massaged several hundred women over the past 12 years...some truly
    have the bodies one sees in Playboy--no flaws, "perfect" (and
    no air-brushing  ;-) ) while others are what some would term the
    other extreme...obese, poor-complexions, generally disproportionate
    (by the way, the same goes for many of the men I have massaged...
    once this guy was so attractive that the women in the hair salon
    I worked in were all gathered around the door as he came out--
    he looked just as good naked [and I'm not gay] as his face did ;-) )
    and *I* have learned to accept each of them as they are.  What
    has much more impact on me than looks are cleanliness and hygiene
    (no matter how good looking, their feet can still smell bad or
    their their hair or breath, etc.,) their attitude (do they love
    themselves without being narcissistic?) their willingness to
    follow through with their intentions, etc.  
        I feel that everyone is unique...with a different personality
    than anyone else, with different strengths and different weaknesses.
    I feel that to *not* use one's strengths is sad, while focusing
    on the weaknesses is perhaps even sadder.  Similarly, it is up
    to each of us, I think, to take responsibility in NOT taking 
    advantage of others or in exploiting their particular characteristic.
    Acceptance is difficult, but it can be done.  For me to learn to
    massage nude men was not easy...not after three decades of never
    having done so, but I learned to accept it.  My twelve years of
    body work have taught me to be far more accepting of differences,
    (physical differences, at any rate) [of course, aging may have 
    something to do with the process...;-} ] and I think I reflect this
    more and more, being especially sensitive to what I say to children
    about physicality.  If we all make an effort to be careful about
    what we say to children, lots of the problems mentioned here will
    go away.  If we start valuing traits and paying less attention to
    weaknesses, similar attitudes can evolve.  Children, after all,
    tend to mimic the attitudes of adults around them.  "Hating"
    someone because they're beautiful is the exact same energy as
    "hating" someone because they're ugly.  (And both, as has been
    pointed out already, are subjective value judgements.)
    
    Frederick
    

    I once had someone (a woman-fellow co-worker elsewhere) actually
    blurt out, in front of a crowd, to my face, that she hated me because
    I didn't have any "zits".   !!!!!!!!!!
    
    I looked at her calmly, pulled the bangs up off my forehead, showed
    her my "zits", and told her, "sure I do, you just can't see them."
    
    Moral:  Liking/disliking someone for what you can see/cannot see
            inhales......
    
    HRH

Ah - I see the disconnect. Someone in a TV commercial said "Don't hate me
because I'm beautiful?" I don't watch TV, I'm not familiar with the commercial.
I'm saddened that an Ad agency would use that line, but I don't think it
originated with them.

In any case, I have known people who were very beautiful, and very lonely. I'm
not trying to justify the commercial (as I said I've never seen it) but to
arouse compassion. Most people would never dream of hating someone who was
physically deformed simply because they were ugly, why is it ok to hate someone
because they are beautiful? It DOES happen, and I can see echoes of it here.

	-- Charles

    Warning---I haven't read any replies, just the base note.
    
    I grew up ugly.  My Mom couldn't understand why I wasn't popular.
    After all, she was overweight, wore glasses, and wasn't nearly as
    pretty---but she was extremely popular in school...first female
    president of the student body, etc.
    
    I have since figured out that I was a tom boy for just a tad too long.
    By the time I wanted to be and look feminine all my friends new about
    make-up and clothes and weren't  willing to teach the late bloomer.
    
    I remember the snickers, the out rights laughter, the cruel teasing,
    the threats of violence.  And I will never forget.
    
    I lucked out.  I switched high schools by choice in my senior year.
    I created a whole new personality for myself.  I became extremely
    popular in a really short period of time.  My one concession to not
    being myself was that I defended all the people who were teased from
    others in the *in* crowd.
    
    I am now me, and am pretty happy with the results.  
    
    I go through periods of being vain, but am always brought back to 
    reality by my past.  For me, it turned out okay.  As shallow as I am
    now, it would have been skads worse had I not had those experiences!
    ;^)
    
    No point to this really, just know you're not alone.
    
    And I'm glad you got the surgery and the braces.  I'd kill for a nose
    job.  And if it makes you feel good, do it.
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

    Someone asked, many notes back, what parents can do when their kids get
    the messages from the world around them that their looks "aren't
    acceptable".  (Note that this response is predicated on the idea that
    almost everyone gets this message at some point during their childhood. 
    It may be more true for girls than boys, but my son got teased for
    being too skinny, and all of my generation in my family "got it" at one
    point or another.)
    
    I think my parents did a reasonably good job for me between the ages of
    8 and 15, which included a couple of years when I had literally *no
    one* who would speak to me in school unless forced to do so by
    surrounding adults.  The first thing they did was say that the other
    kids were being unfair.  The second thing they did was help me find
    activities where I could excel.  My mom included me in a lot of non-kid
    stuff so that I had something "special" to be doing after school when
    other kids wouldn't play with me.  I believe they spoke about the
    problem with the Girl Scout troop leaders, so that I was included in
    all activities.  This was the period in my life when I learned to knit,
    sew, do embroidery, and bake.  I was encouraged to go to the library,
    and if I wanted to read rather than relate, that was OK - just please
    do it outside in the sunshine.  In very practical ways, then, they
    helped me find things that I could do without a lot of other kids.  And
    they loved me.  And they made sure that I was clean, and neat, and
    fashionably dressed.  Toward the end of this period, mom helped me find
    folks who could help with make-up and grooming so that I could be the
    best of what I was.
    
    School helped by letting me break a few rules.  :-)  No one ever yelled
    at me for taking a book out at recess and finding a tree and hiding in
    it.  Once or twice the playground monitor came over to make sure I was
    ok, but I was never punished for the no-nos of having books outside and
    climbing trees.  I was never forced to participate in playground games.
    
    My folks did something else for me, too.  They found me groups of young
    people who *weren't* from my rather small school, and encouraged me to
    go to events with them.  Dancing school (which I loved and excelled
    at), church youth group (they got me in when I was under-age), yacht
    club youth sailing program, town recreation children's theater.  All
    places where I could escape the teasing and put-down of the girls in my
    school.  If there were negative vibes in any of those activities, I
    don't remember them.  I suspect if there had been, I would not have
    participated for long.
    
    The result is that while I knew that I was never going to be a raving
    beauty, I always knew that I was loved and valuable.  And that made a
    world of difference.
    
    Alison

    this is such a sad string.
    
    why don't we see, that we are ALL of us flawed beauties.
    
    
    
    

    We do, I think, Sara, see the flaws in ourselves and it's that pain 
    of discovery that makes us want to "cut down" others.  Secure people
    don't do it.  We need to accept ourselves as we are and then we don't
    "mind" the plusses and minuses in others quite so much.  But it's a
    chain reaction.  Dad's boss chews him out, he goes home and screams at
    the wife, she scolds the child who then tears kitty's face off.  A psych
    professor originated that little gem.  It takes a lot not to "pass on"
    the pain.  And we are only human.  And it *is* sad.
    
    S.

    I'm wondering where the people are who grew up feeling they were 
    more ok than not.  (I keep thinking of that cartoon that shows the 
    almost empty auditorium at the "convention for adult children of 
    normal parents".)
  
    I wasn't ugly as a child, in fact, as a baby, I was very cute.
    The few pictures I have show a pretty little girl.  Despite the 
    hand-me-downs.  Everyone was very envious of my long eyelashes.
    I look happy, too, in these earliest pictures; smiling, laughing,
    looking very mischievous.

    My sister called me "skinny pickle".  (I was skinny, and I loved 
    pickles -- sweet and dill -- I guess that's where that came from.)  
    She thought I was very ugly when I came home from the hospital.
    I was premature and tiny.

    One later picture shows a very sad little girl with crooked bangs.  
    Another very blurry photo shows mostly the outline of a mad little 
    girl, arms akimbo.  Another (from the same set of blurry pictures), 
    shows me with my hands in front of my face, in front of my mother, 
    who is standing very straight, her face tight and pinched; and my 
    grandmother, looking stoic, as if she is acting as buffer in this 
    little drama.

    My childhood is remembered as being lonely, and I was tormented by
    most of the other kids in the neighborhood.  And I, in turn, was 
    especially cruel to one other girl, littler than myself.

    I hated myself.  Thought there was something wrong with my body.
    Was I bowlegged?  No, the doctor said, poor posture.  Why did my
    belly button stick out?  Did I have a hernia?  Why could I never
    catch my breath?  Why did I sometimes get a sharp pain in my 
    chest?  

    I thought I was fat.  The pictures of me at 16 show toothpick legs
    and knobby knees.  My face is all features, no padding: eyes, nose,
    mouth.  My sister says I ate potato chips and drank Coke; that's all.  
    I smoked, too, by then.

    I was a "junior varsity" cheerleader, for a year.  Didn't make it 
    into the senior team.  By then, I'd stopped smiling.  And I was 
    convinced that I had a defective core.

    CQ

For all the wounded children out there...

I was watching a John Bradshaw tape last night and did the following
meditation...

First, using your left hand, write a letter to your parents telling
them what you needed as a kid.  You might want to focus on a specific
age and look at a picture of you at that age or picture where you
lived at the time.

Read it to a friend and have the friend give you a supportive
emotional response.  [ie, you sounded really sad that you father left
the house and wondering if it was because he hated you, etc].

Take some deep breaths and picture yourself at that age.  Picture your
face using a picture and where you are and what you are feeling.
Continue to breathe deeply and visualize.  Now picture yourself as an
adult looking at your inner child.  Say what that kid needs to hear
"You are lovable, I am here for you", whatever comes to mind.  You
could also hug the child or whatever will make that child feel better.
Gently return still breathing deeply."

I found this execize very powerful and am getting choked up just
writing this.  We all desire to be loved and to be ourselves.  I hope
that all of us carrying around unresolved stuff from our parents
marriage or abuse or whatever find peace and the ability to let go so
we can be what we are meant to be...

peace,
john
  

    RE: .83
    
    How lucky you were as a child to have supportive and understanding
    parents.
    
    I remember coming home from school and telling my mother that no
    one would play with me and I was being picked on.  My mother asked
    me what I said or did to them.  She didn't believe me when I said
    I did nothing.  I learned not to tell her anything that went on
    in my life unless it was something good like an A on a test.
    
    It wasn't until I was an adult that I realized just how bad my
    school years were.  I was in such a severe depression during
    that time that even now I only remember bits and pieces.
    
    I'm now involved in a terrific organization that accepts people
    for who they are, not what they wear, where they work, how much
    monye they have, etc.  It's really a super group.
    
    Linda
    

    
    i was an outcast at school starting at about fourth grade...
    
    since then i'm afraid i've become used to it. 
    
    i honestly don't know what i'd do if this ever ceased to be true..

    
    
    
    Ouch!!!!  This string hurts.  One of the most painful memories of my
    youth was a statement made by a teacher.  He said, "I don't care what
    anybody else says, I think you're good looking."  This is the same man
    that then proceded to sexually abuse me for several years.  Christ
    Allmighty -- no wonder I "let" him abuse me for so long.  (These aren't
    new revelations -- I've discussed them in therapy several times -- but
    they do seem to fit in the discussion here.)
    
    	Greg

    I mentioned my mother in another string; she was told repeatedly
    (incessantly?) as a child "I don't care what anybody says, to *me*
    you're beautiful."  This combined with other fun facts of her childhood
    took her well into *my* adulthood to overcome, but in large part she
    has done it.
    
    believe in the strength you have gained in spite of what you have had
    to live through.  That strength can help you, even if only small
    steps.  I see it in what you write here; you who write here are braver
    than I am.