Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    	Fred -
    
    	As someone 15 once myself (and after having recently raised a
    	son through the teen years to the incredibly *reasonable and
    	delightful* age of 20) - it does get better, believe me.
    
    	Teenagers look at their parents through magnifying glasses 
    	that accentuate every aspect of the slightest possible parental
    	flaw.  Later, as they experience being out in the world (or get
    	a lot closer to it) after their teen years, they discover how
    	tough it is to survive out there and realize what an amazing
    	job you did to go through the process of raising them.
    
    	If I could only give you one piece of advice through all this,
    	it would be to make sure your daughter knows you love her entirely
    	for *herself* (and not because she is an honor student or any of
    	the other good things she does.)
    
    	If she were flunking out of school (or dropped out) - you'd still
    	love her, right?  You'd try to do everything to help her, but you
    	wouldn't take the love away from her.
    
    	Let her know that you think her accomplishments are great (and you
    	are happy for her) - but that she's wonderful (most of all) for her
    	unique self.

    	Oh yeah - one other thing.
    
    	When I was 15, my parents had this practice of *never, ever*
    	admitting they could be wrong about something to do with me
    	(even when it was glaringly obvious to me) - so I promised
    	myself that if I ever had kids, I would own up to it when I
    	was wrong (and would apologize to my kids about it.)
    
    	On the rare occasions that Ryan and I do flare up at each
    	other these days, we both apologize later.  If I had taken
    	the same stand as my parents (of never being wrong,) I don't
    	think Ryan would ever have apologized to me about anything,
    	either.
    
    	I like it that we can both admit when we went too far or did
    	something insensitive (because it makes our overall relationship
    	so much better for it.)

    	One last thing (another promise I made to myself during my teen
    	years about the kind of parent I would be):
    
    	When I was a teenager, I was afraid to tell my parents when
    	something happened that I knew they wouldn't like.  I would
    	take all my good accomplishments to them in a heartbeat (and
    	they would be happy and glow with pride as much as any parents
    	do) - but if I had a problem, I would hide it from them.  They
    	didn't seem able to "handle it" when things weren't wonderful,
    	so I carried all my personal burdens by myself (and at 14/15,
    	teen problems can seem devastating.)
    
    	I promised myself that I would tell my future children that
    	they could come to me about anything - and I've lived up to
    	this with my son.  He doesn't tell me every thing in his life,
    	of course, but he knows I'm there (and that I can "handle it"
    	when he does tell me about his problems.)
    
    	He tells me *far* more than I was ever willing to tell my parents
    	- but, it's funny in a way, because we then BOTH hide his problems
    	from my parents (his Grandma and Grandpa.)
    
    	I've heard of so many tragic things happening to kids because
    	they didn't realize that their parents *would* have kept loving them
    	and *would* have understood about their problems - it's the toughest
    	thing to get across to kids sometimes, but so very, very important.
    
    	Of course, it's also tough to live up to the promise (and not to
    	freak out when they *do* come to you with some toughies.)  But it's
    	still easier than facing the tragic consequences possible if your
    	child doesn't realize that you're the best person to turn to when
    	something goes wrong.
    
    	To give my parents their due - they *did* really come through for
    	me when I dared to tell them what was bothering me, so I'm sure my
    	impression about their stamina was mostly mistaken.  It's just that
    	I was never really sure when the problems came up in my teen years,
    	so I vowed to make damn sure my own child(ren) KNEW it was ok to
    	come to me.
    
    	I remember once, when I was 11 years old, I was typing a report
    	in the basement at 2:00 in the morning - my Dad came down to find
    	out what was going on and I cried to him that I'd waited too late 
    	to finish a report I had to turn in that day.  Dad sent me to bed,
    	and as I fell asleep, I heard the distant tapping of Dad in the
    	basement (typing up the rest of a 6th grade report for me.)
    
    	I still never felt as comfortable about it as I wanted my own
    	kids to feel - so I made sure my son Ryan knew it from as early
    	as possible (and it's worked out nicely for both of us.)
    
    							Suzanne

Fred,
she's 15 you say?  oh lordy, am I in trouble.  Tracy exhibits this behavior, and
she just turned 9.

ditto what Suzanne said.  Looking back at the teen years in my house (three of
them at once, my poor parents!), and looking at my brother's daughters (18&19)
now and the last few years, and my sister's sons (12&15), all I can say is that
the patience requirement must be something more than was required when they were
in the Terrible Twos, since as teens they are *deliberately* awful.

One thing to note, this may apply to your daughter also, is that Tracy is VERY
intense, extremely hard on herself.  When she does this vicious behavior, and
gets called on it, one of her strategies is to turn on herself -- she's a
horrible, worthless, stupid jerk who wishes she was not alive. (I'm seriously
worried about that last part, it's a recurring theme.)  The best I can come up
with is to make sure the unconditional love is there, and to try to patiently
outwait the tantrum and then guide her to more constructive paths.

I'm trying to explain perspective, and the temporary nature of life's setbacks,
to her lately.  I believe that, broadly speaking, that is what teens lack, since
they of course have a limited range of life's experience on which to base their
judgements.  

Good luck!  I wish you patient endurance, and that you remember that old saw:

"When I was 15, I realized how stupid my father was.  When I was 20, I was
amazed at how much he had learned!"

Sara

    Everything Suzanne says rings true here, too.  (Welcome back, Suzanne!)
    
    Teenagers are struggling to become something.  They are no longer	
    children, being beyond the simple toys and games of their youth; yet
    neither are they adults, being rich in the precious metal of
    intelligence but lacking the acquired patina of wisdom.
    
    Teenagers today are faced with a world far different from the one most
    of us knew.  Until very recently, they have lived daily under the
    threat of nuclear annihilation.  They see about them an acceptance of
    violence and rapine as facts of everyday life.  The technological
    revolution provides them with so much information, true and untrue,
    helpful and harmful, that they simply cannot process it all.  They are
    clearly more cynical than we were; among the things they distrust are
    our motives.  Hang in there, make it clear, as Suzanne says, that you
    love your daughter *for herself*, and things will get better in time.
    
    -d

    
    re .0:
    
    Sounds like me as a teenager. (-:  By this age, I wasn't asking
    for things from my parents that were "impossible", as you seemed to
    put it, particularly financially or anything that would take up
    their time - both were hard to come by and I *understood* that.
    
    Which is the crux of the matter - as long as I felt I *understood*
    *why* and saw the need, I complied.
    
    But as my Mom says now, "you couldn't *make* Ellen do anything".
    Your teenager always needs to know "why" you want her to do (or not do)
    something.  *ALWAYS* explain why!
    
    When a parent answers a "why?" with "because I told you so" or some
    other *stupid* nonsense non-answer, I absolutely see red!  People
    (yes, even kids) are entitled to straight answers to the question
    "why?"
    

Being a recently recovered teenager, I'm pretty close to this stuff...

It sounds like your daughter is handling teenagehood as well as can
possible be expected.

What you have to under stand is that 1) EVERYTHING is *BIG* when you are
a teenager, every event is life-changing, every emotion is exagerated,
ever flaw magnified.  It's the way of teenagers to make their lives a
living drama; the highs are ecstatic, the lows are almost suicidal.  When
she falls in love, it will be with the most perfect, amazing, wonderful
boy in existence, it will be the most passionate love that has ever
occured, it will last forever and be the love of fairy tales.  When it
ends, it will be the end of the world, she will never love again, she
will hate him, hate all boys, life won't be worth living.   Till the next
time.  Foods that are good are the foods of the gods, foods that are bad
are inedible;  TV shows that are good are amazing and life-altering, TV
shows that are bad are the product of the stupidist imagination ever.
Remember that this extreme of emotions and judgements will be leveled at
everything - including both you and herself.  When she is feeling good
about herself, she will be beautiful, perfect, know everything, have
the brightest future, be immortal (and probably intolerable :-); when she
is feeling bad about herself she is the ugliest girl in school, too stupid
to speak, a sure and unalterable failure.  Similarly, she will love you
passionately when he thinks you are right, and hate you when you are wrong.

The reason she was so upset about the ice cream bar is that that incident,
like every other incident in a teenagers life, is loaded with meaning and
is incredibly important.  In her mind, she wasn't overreacting...

2) teeangers have to go through a period of seperation from their parents.
It is natural and healthy for them to try on different values; to test
their independence, to see how far they can stray from their parents'
wings, how far they can open their own. Part of the process will involve
pushing you away - it *has* to.  Eventually she will return, as loving
as ever, but on her own terms instead of yours.  All her life she has
been sharing your life on your terms, and the teenager years are the
years she figures out her own terms.  It will be necessarily tumultuous.

[disclaimer - not everyone goes through this identically - for instance,
I experienced most of my so-called "teen" years between 17 and 21, rather
than the typical 13-17...but it sounds like that is exactly what she
is going through.]

In short, don't worry about it; just remember that life is exagerted for
her, and that will help you understand her perspective...

D!

    More than once, through my son's teen years, the answer to "Why can't I
    .....?" was an amorphous "I'm not really sure.  It doesn't feel right
    to me.  Give me a bit to see if I can come up with a more concrete
    reason."  Sometimes I *couldn't* come up with a more concrete reason,
    and in several of those instances I wound up letting him do whatever.
    
    Try to remember when you were a teen, and that issues which today seem
    less important were critical to you then.  As an adult, we have learned
    that life goes on, teens don't know that yet.  Take her worries
    seriously when she comes to you.  I've sat up until 2 in the morning
    more than once (both as teen and parent) talking about an
    adult-trivial, teen-important issue -- even with homework left undone
    and other items important to parents hanging, because there was no
    brain-space available until the issue was cleared up.
    
    Be patient as your child learns to fly on her own.  You can only
    provide a safety net of sorts, and the older she gets the higher she
    will fly and the larger the holes in the net will be.  The reward to
    you is her independence and achievement.
    
    And good luck.  Try to retain your sense of humor, it helps.
    
    Alison

    
    	Fred,
    
    	It wasn't that long ago that *I* was 15 (only about 8 years)
    	and I was truly horrible!  Actually I think my worst years were
    	when I was 12/13/14.  My father was convinced that only one of
    	us was going to come out of my adolescence alive.  =)  But
    	amazingly enough, we're both still here!
    
    	I think part of my problem was that I didn't have many friends
    	due to the fact that I had glasses AND braces AND headgear.
    	So I rebelled and my parents of course got the brunt of it.
    	I wanted absolutely everything my way, no ifs ands or buts.
    
    	She will grow out of it.  When I was a teen I thought my
    	parents were brutes and didn't care about me at all, but
    	I did (and she will too) eventually realize that they aren't
    	the ogres I thought they were.
    	
    	Best of luck.
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    re: .4 Sara
    
    	"she wishes she weren't alive"
    
    	I can't count how many times during my teen years I screamed
    	at my parents "I wish I was never born!!"
    
    	It's a teen's way of saying the worst possible thing they
    	can to hurt their parents.
    
    	JJ
    

    re.10
    
       I used to use that one all the time as a teen.  My mother put a
    stop to it eventually by queitly agreeing with me once.
    
       That, among other things was a turning point for us...our 
    relationship became much better after that.  We both agreed not to
    say awful, hurtful things to each other when mad.  It worked.
    
    
    
                                   
                                   L.J.

JJ, LJ, maybe, but she repeats it in various forms
	"I wish I wasn't alive"
	"I should be dead"
	"I wish I was in heaven, it's better there"
	"I think I'm going to commit suicide when I'm older."
The child is 9 years old.  When I was nine, it never occurred to me. Ever.
She is extremely hard on herself, is extremely smart, a high achiever at school,
very popular and socially adriot, never to my knowledge has been nasty to 
anyone (outside her immediate family ;-).  It's not because in our house she is
put down, told how bad she is, or otherwise psychologically abused.  If anything
it may be that her self-esteem suffers, as mine did, because she feels that
she has not done anything to deserve good fortune.

Hell if I know.  Advice solicited -- send mail, or post it.

I think with Tracy, as with teens, that sometimes this behavior is sincere.
Sometimes it's for shock value.  Sometimes it's manipulative.  Sometimes it's
trying to avoid the consequences of bad behavior.

What I worry about is the impulsiveness of teens, the lack of perspective.  As
a grownup, I know that I can swallow hard, pick my head up and walk, and that
eventually I will get to another place, a better place.  Kids don't have the
experience to know that, to believe it.  That's why Romeo & Juliet did it.

I just think that when you get through the teen years, you get your reward! 
(Ideally, at least :-} )

Sara

Some kids may express suicidal thoughts and not really mean it, but I
firmly believe that every such expression deserves a careful and 
concerned response. Sara, you've probably already done this, but if not,
might you consider having a conversation with your daughter during a
peaceful moment? You might say something like: "You've mentioned a few 
times that you want to die. I'm really concerned and worried about this. 
Could you explain to me why you feel this way and what you have in mind?"
See if you can determine whether she has a plan (when? how?). You may 
need to have this conversation a few times. You may find out something 
new. If this seems serious to you, you may want to consult with the 
Samaritans (a suicide hotline with offices in Lawrence MA, Boston MA
and Framingham MA, among others). Good luck. This sounds scary and
difficult even if your daughter means something else entirely.


Liz

     I used to think that the big lie about the "terrible two's" was that
    it really didn't go away until the child was 18. Having step-daughters
    of 18 and 19 years old, I am hoping the terrible twos end by age 20.
    :->
    
     I found myself nodding my head in agreement with Alison's statement
    regarding beinbg questioned "why" by a teenager and not having a
    clear and convincing argument to respond with. Sometimes I have been
    just about to say "well, my parents didn't let _me_ do that, so..."
    Sometimes I've ended up concluding that I was pissed that my parents
    didn't, and there really was no overriding reason not to, so I let
    them.
    
     I definitely have to agree that explaining why is very important in
    getting a teenager to do something. And don't expect it to be done
    cheerfully even with a good explanation. Much of teenage behavior can
    be explained by the fact that teenagers do not hide their emotions well
    when being forced to do something they don't want to do- partially due
    to maturity. Take the ice-cream bar incident for example. We have what
    amounts to a tantrum over the fact that there are nuts on the Dove bar.
    It's basically immaturity at work here. Even the brightest, most
    reasonable shild will have temporary reversions to childlike behavior.
    Learn to take them in stride and don't reinforce them.
    
     Hope for the best, with both eyes open.
    
     The Doctah

    I was *not* what I would call a "Parents Dream".  I was
    argumentive and too smart, & rarely did what I was told 
    especially if I was told to do so by my mother..(I was
    not asked, I was told, BTW) no matter that punishment
    was bound to follow.  I always wanted to know "why?"
    Mom and I were too much alike, so we clashed like two 
    raging bulls......over everything, from the way dishes
    should be done to what channel to watch to what clothes
    were acceptable.  I got along very well with my dad, who
    used to ask me to help him on his "projects".  Doing a good
    job just to hear him say so was worth any amount of work...
    
    Now, at 32, mom & I still clash on a minor scale, but she
    knows I love her, I've told her so!
    
    HRH 
    

    I have 2 daughters that were opinionated as every teenager is, but I
    never allowed tamtrums in the house! I always explain things clearly,
    give a reason for everything, and expect from them exactly the same, I
    treat them well, with respect, and of course I expect THAT from them, I
    just don't allow shouts and bad manners now or ever... they had to
    behave since we were very little and never had problems with them...
    when they were sad, or crying, I just went to them, we talked, we
    explained things up, and we normally ended whatever with a hug and by
    drying "those hurting little tears" and getting along to happier
    things! believe me, it worked with us!
    
    Now... they are 25 and 24, (they'll kill me for saying this) but they
    still get the phone when they're down and (eventually) even spill some
    tears over the line... (one live out of state)
    we are very close and find that there is nothing that cann't be resolved 
    over a nice conversation... I cannt recall seeing either girl mad (angry)
    and shouting... my opinion is that anger is loss of control and loss of 
    graping the situation, and when a person is raving mad that person DOES 
    NOT HAVE control or ability to give the right solution to the problem.
    the problem IS in control of the person instead. It is very important to 
    explain to a joung person who is growing up and maturing the reasons
    for our demands or requests, it is very hard to become a mature adult 
    without some guidelines that help us IDENTIFY problems so to avoid falling
    intothem!
    A young mind is eager to learn, and manners is one of the few first
    lessons that our kids got from us, then, we explained everything to
    them, or everything that raised a question and that went through all 
    their lives... till the present day. They never gave us a tantrun
    and we never found any tantrum "justified".
    If they "shouted" at me... they would receive an instant slap! (I am
    sure they know how I feel at that loss of respect) never mind the age
    frame, tha action is what counts.
    
    If they know that they cannot get away with it... they won't do it.
    If you allow everything... you'll get it.
    Firm guidelines has always been a blessing in our house. It worked with
    us.
    Best luck. Ana
    

    
    An idea for a tactical approach.. (Other noters, whaddya think?)
    
    
    ... <when she wants something, she goes for the juglar..>  She's full
    of passion about life.  Do you think she'd be interested in doing
    something with some of that passion?
    
    Do you have a cause you believe in?  eg, would she be interested in
    working at a soup kitchen with you once a week?  Or something similiar?  
    
    IMO, though, it'd be important that you participate also, to demonstrate
    how important it is.  With a little luck, it might be a wonderful thing
    to share. 
    
    
    good luck!
    Jamd

    Greetings all,
    
    Thanks for the information and the guidence. It really is 
    amazing that there isn't better information on raising kids.
    The only "valid" information around is from professionals who 
    probably never had a child themselves. (My wife and I knew a 
    guy who is a marriage councilor and had a child 14/15 who was
    seriously suicidal.) I've always believed that we get alot more
    information when we buy a car than when we have children. Also 
    until recently I had a friend who was a couple years older than
    me and had children a couple years older than mine and I was able
    to identify challanges that were coming. 
    
    Fred Mudgett 

    Having been a junior high school teacher and high school coach for 14
    years, I have formulated the following theory:
    
    1. You start the kid off right - do all the right stuff as soon as
    they're born.
    
    2. Reinforce it as they go thru their childhood and pre-adolescence.
    
    3. Write off the years from ~12 to ~20. This is now some strange person
    the trolls and elves have placed in the body of your beloved offspring.
    Kind of like "Quantum Leap", only more frustrating.
    
    4. You should start to notice that when the offspring reaches 20's and
    30's, they behave the way you taught them when they were 2 and 3.
    
    5. Also, note how they behave with other folks. I figger if they p*ss
    and moan and pout and grump when *you* ask them to do the dishes; but
    when you're visiting other people, they go over and ask if they can
    help, you are (have) done it right. 
    
    --DE
    

    Another thing too ...
    
    Explain to your child that you've never raised a a teenager before,
    just like they've never been through this age/spell before - you're
    both human and you both will make mistakes.  Try and encourage them to
    grade you on a curve, you do the same.   8^)
    
    It's a trying but wonderful time !
    
    
    Jerry (who's 15 year old son is asleep on the floor right now, looking
    like a newborn, well, a newborn capable of benching over 250 lbs ...)

re: Last few....

My daughter (almost 16) just returned from a week of working with her 
Church group deep in the heart of appalachia; Letcher Cty KY to be exact. 
They were part of a well organized home (re)building project that has been 
going on for 20+ years in 15-16 counties in the most impoverished parts of 
appalachia. Last year was her (and my) first year doing this work. She came 
back with an incredible attitude adjustment! She had no idea people could 
be this poor, live in these conditions, and still carry on with life like 
it was all OK. She worked last week with a family with 9 children, an 
alcoholic father, and everyone in the family either chewed, smoked or 
dipped tobacco, from the 4 year old on up.....

She comes back to her private bedroom and bath that she shares with her 
brother, and had a whole lot better attitude about what she wants and what 
she needs in life....

Have my wife and I been lucky to have a kid like this??? Absolutely!!! Am I 
proud of her and tell her so?? Absolutly!!! But some of it may be due to 
the same kind of early upbringing that has been discussed previously....I 
don't take all the credit, my wife has worked hard at being a mother and 
housewife and worked at several different jobs over the years, all at the 
same time. I think it is more than just luck....

Enough bragging....this was definately a rathole but I think it makes the 
point about finding your daughter a project she can work at and relate 
to...it may change her life forever in a positive manner..

    Vic

PS: I have been asked by my daughter to go again next year, since I didn't 
go this year with her. I consider this about as high a compliment as I am 
ever going to get from anyone. An invitation to sleep on a cement floor, 
drive nearly 2000 miles, eat a starchy diet of fair to poor food and spend 
a week doing repairs on someones house is almost too good to pass up!! 8^)
Oh yes, we are not allowed to be father/daughter for the week. We work on 
separate teams and have treat each other as equals for the week.....works 
for me, but some others there have a *LOT* harder time with that....

Wow.

Vic, your love and pride really show through. I hope I do as
well. You have every right to be proud - both of yourself and
of your daughter.

	-- Charles

    
    	Having been a teenager, but never raised one, I'd still like to
    put my two cents in. :-)
    
    	My take on it comes from another perspective all together.  As
    a teen growing up gay, I see the teen years as a moderatly different
    experience.  Not only are you facing all the "normal" changes that
    teens go through, but you also must *somehow*, by yourself, come
    to understand that you are different from the "norm".  Most times
    this feeling can't be comprehended by the teen that is going through
    it.  Some deal with it by withdrawing, some deal with it by what I 
    call "Ultra-rebellion", still others become the "perfect" teen--
    doing exactly what is expected of them and being the quintessential
    heterosexual teenager.  All of these hide the fact that they are 
    terribly confused, ashamed (taught to them by our culture), isolated
    and yes, sucidal.  Statistics are now being compiled that show that
    about 30% of the teen sucides are probably or possibly related to
    issues of homosexuality.  This from a probable population figure of
    10-15 % of teens.
    
    	I was one of the ones that withdrew inside myself.  In talking to
    other lesbigays about growing up, I found similar themes.  The "Ultra-
    rebellion" usually takes the form of doing things that will shock the
    parents the most as the teen feels that if they knew the truth the 
    parents wouldn't love them anymore, anyway.  The "perfect" teen is 
    the one who is the best actor in the world.  S/he hides hir feelings 
    so deep that the act becomes hard for the teen to distiguish between
    it and reality.  They are the most likely to commit suicide.
    
    	I would recomend that you bring up differences in orientation and
    just how you feel about it.  This could reassure the teenager that
    you are not going to abandon or disown hir.  This is the teens biggest
    concern.  Assure the teen that no matter what s/he does in life, you
    will always be there and will always love hir.  It goes a long way in
    helping them to explore their feelings and themselves--safely.
    
    
    	More later when I have time to think about it.
    
    
    Debbi

re;.22 Proud of myself, not really, I have been doing home repair for a 
long time, this time I just did it for someone who needed my help instead 
of doing it for myself. 

I am proud of my daughter though....to watch her handle a Skil saw with 
confidence and be proud of her own accomplishements is a real kick! And now 
she loves to walk around the contractors tools section of Spags with me and 
look at all the neat tools she would like. It is getting to be a family 
joke...last Christmas she got her very own chalkline as a stocking 
stuffer... 8^)

re:23 Growing up "different".....

I can understand (at least intellectually) your problems as you describe 
them. I can also accept the suicide figures, it makes sense. Kids NEED to 
be accepted unconditionally, they NEED to be part of the group, and to deny 
them acceptance as a parent is very difficult for them. My son got his ear 
pierced when he went to college. My only comment was for him to keep the 
ear treated with the alcohol as recommended so it didn't get infected. 
Other than that, we had a discussion around when he might consider not 
wearing the earring since it is not socially acceptable for things like job 
interviews, etc..... no big deal. If he isn't abusing his body or doing 
anything irreversable, I will let him decide for himself whether to do it 
or not. Tattoos and similar would be harder to deal with as they are 
permanent. A hole in his ear is far less so.....

I'd like to second what Debbi said, and add one thing, since we are
discussing raising teenagers...

No one thinks their kids might be gay.

I am sitting here imaging that dozens of gay-supportive =wn=ers reading 
Debbi's note thinking to themselves "Well, if my son/duaghter were gay,
I would want hir to know I supported hir."  Well, the implicit 
assumption in that is that your son or daughter *isn't* gay.  

But you can't know, really!  Gay people run the spectrum of personality
types, from very feminine to very masculine, from very outgoing to very
introverted, from athletic to bookish.  Even signs that indicate "sure"
heterosexuality really aren't - just because your daugher dates boys,
even goes ga-ga over the boys she dates, doesn't mean she isn't bisexual
or lesbian.  Just because she loves to wear make-up and dresses, just
because she is popular and on the yearbook staff, or just because she
is a straight-A student doesn't mean she isn't a lesbian.  Just because
you found girly-mags under your son's bed doesn't mean he isn't gay.
Just because he goes ga-ga over girls, or just because he plays football
doesn't mean he isn't gay.  Every parent thinks s/he knows hir kids
as well as anyone can know anyone.  Are you saying to yourself right
now "My child definitely isn't gay; I know everything that goes on in
hir life, and hir feelings, and s/he obviously isn't because {x, y, z}."?

I would really like all of you with teenage or pre-teen kids, including the
basenoter, and you, Vic, Sara, and all you other supportive parents, to just
imagine that your child is gay.  Let go for a minute of your preconceived
notions of what a gay teen is supposed to act like, and the "evidence" that
yours is clearly not gay, and imagine that s/he is. 

Because it isn't all that unlikely.  If 20 womannoters have teenagers, chances
are that 2 of them will turn out gay, and I'll bet when those kids were or
will be 12, 13, 14 years old, it never even occured (or will occur) to you.

So I just want to ask you parents (speaking as a recently recovered teen
and a non-heterosexual person) to talk to your kids about homosexuality
*before* you "suspect" something, because chances are you won't suspect
until it is too late.  If you are supportive of gays, let your kids know - if
they are gay, it will help them tremendously; and if they aren't, then you
will be passing your open-mindedness on to them.

D!

    Interesting wording, D! -- "If my son/daughter *were* gay..."
    
    That's the subjunctive form, and it means "but of course that's not
    possible."  I think you're right in supposing that the average parent
    thinks in that way.
    
    A truly gay-supportive response is, "If my son/daughter *is* gay..."
    How often do you believe...?
    
    -d

    I've told all my kids that if they discover as they grow up that
    they are gay that we will support them.
    
    Bonnie

This entry is being posted anonymously for a member of our community. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What if your find out your ...spouse, child... etc. is gay?  This is a really
personal thing for me and more for my parents.  My youngest bother died a year
ago last March from AIDS.  He was 32 years old, a brilliant financial analyst
working for the government in Washington.  Our entire family (7 other siblings, 
our families, my parents, his SO) were devastated.

I think all my brothers and sisters and I grew up knowing or suspecting T.'s
sexual preferences.  It didn't bother any of us IN THE LEAST.  Both Mom and Dad 
had many homosexual friends, good friends and, as soon as we were able to
understand what it meant, it seemed normal.  The only ones who never saw it
were my parents and the only one who didn't really accept it was T.

There was a period which was the most painful time in the world for my mother
which was when T. moved to Washington and came out of the closet.  He didn't
want my parents to know so he effectively quit communicating with them.  T. was 
always my mother's favorite and she simply couldn't understand.  Finally it
started to dawn on her and my father so she started asking us (the siblings). 
The uniform response was, "Of course, we thought you knew."  

Then came the reconciliation and the fear: "my god, I hope he doesn't get
AIDS".  And of course he did.

My mother said to me when she asked me if T. was gay, "I don't care, I just
want him back."  (I am now crying)

My children definitely know what gay is.

    
    
    I understand the pain -- I lost twelve friends in 1990 alone to AIDS. 
    But, I kind of read that your children know what gay is because they
    know what AIDS is.  GAY != AIDS.  Please help your children
    see/understand that.
    
    	Greg
    
    p.s.:  If I'm not reading your entry correctly, please ignore me!  It's
    pretty easy to do!
    
    

    
    I hesitate replying to .28 because s/he is obviously still in much pain
    over his/her younger brother's death.
    
    However, I read the same thing as Greg did:  GAY = AIDS = DEAD.  I
    find that both an inaccurate and offensive depiction.
    
    	deb

 I didn't see that at all. It seemed to me that the anonymous author just
made sure that his/her kids knew what gay was and that it wasn't a bad thing 
in case one of them discovered they were gay, so they could go to him/her 
(them.) It appeared to be a case of making sure that such a situation would
not be repeated again. Of course, I'm reading into the note- but you two did 
too! Let's give the author the benefit of the doubt before accusing her/him
of being insensitive to lesbigays, please.It seems that throughout the
rest of the note, the author treated lesbigays like any other people- I don't
see a reason why one would automatically take offense to a non-specific part
of the note (except that there is a history of intolerance in society).

 The Doctah

This is posted anonymously for the author of 916.28

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you misread me.  Actually, and sadly enough, in the 30-50 year old age
bracket in Washington in the gay community of which T. was a part, it is almost 
an equation.  Most of these men were infected before much was known to prevent
infection.  They are dying in masses.  My children don't know that my brother
died of AIDS, someday when they are older we'll talk about it.  

What I meant (and perhaps didn't explain because it is still very difficult for 
me to write about my brother at length) is that I have taught my children that
people we know and love can be gay and that it is just another way of living. 

In fact, if they associate any particular lifestyle with AIDS, it's drugs since 
where I am living that is the more common connection.

    
    
    'nuf said.  I wish you peace in dealing with the loss of your brother. 
    It's obvious from your notes that you loved him very much.  Also, it
    seems your children have very wonderful parents!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	Greg

Just a few unrelated ramblings on teenagerhood...

First, my own experience:  I was the "perfect" teen -- honor student, 
didn't smoke or do drugs or hang out with the "wrong" crowd, drank no
more than my parents did, devout Catholic, classical musician, etc. etc.
I thought I had Mother Nature beat!  I mean, I was reading about all these
teenagers who were wondering who they were and who were trying to find
themselves, and being rebellious and all that... and I thought "Not me!
I know EXACTLY who I amd and EXACTLY where I'm going!"

Until I fled the nest by going to college.

There I was exposed to all kinds of ideas and lifestyles that I'd never
REALLY been exposed to as a kid.  There, too, I came to the realization
that I didn't REALLY know who I was; rather I knew what my PARENTS wanted
me to be and I tried to be the "good little boy" by being exactly that.

So in order for me to discover who *I* wanted to be, I first had to find
myself.  Which meant that I had *MY* adolescence between the ages of 19
and 22.  Which meant that I came within a hair's-breadth of flunking out.
(I'm glad my current manager didn't ask for my GPA before hiring me 8-) ).

Funny thing is, these days when I do things that my parents may not like
(e.g. converting to Secular Humanism, growing a beard, wearing my hair in 
a ponytail), it's *not* to spite them; rather, it's because *I* want to 
do them.

Oh, that's another thing:  more than once I got the line, "You're going
through a phase".  This has become a hot button with me.  This line does
two things.  First, it trivializes and utterly dismisses a life choice
made by another person.  Second, it's a form of denial: "My baby can't
POSSIBLY really be DOING this horrible thing!  Sooner or later s/he will
come to hir senses and go back to doing what *I* wanted them to do".  In
other words, it preserves the parents' illusion that the parent is still
in complete control of the child's life.

Sooner or later ya gotta let go.

Another observation, and this might tie in with the "unasked questions"
thread:  There were a lot of questions I never asked my parents, and a
lot of things I never brought up to them... and believe it or not, TV
and movies played a big role in this.  I would see a show or a move where
a parent goes completely ballistic after the kid asks about something
(usually, but not always, sexually related).  I'd then make a mental note
not to bring that subject up with MY parents, because that subject made
Mommies and Daddies mad... and my parents brought me up to believe that
keeping Mommie and Daddie happy was my highest aspiration in life.  So I
never asked about sex, never asked about birth control, only asked ONCE
about dating... (they gave me an "OK, but...", followed by a long list
of rules.  My one bit of quasi-rebellion was that after this episode,
instead of ASKING them if I could go on a date, I'd just TELL them I was
going on a date 8-) ).

Later on in life (like, in the past year or two), I've been talking to
my parents and I found out that they were a hell of a lot more reasonable
than I made them out to be... so one piece of advice I can offer to parents
is to COMMUNICATE with your kids; make SURE they truly UNDERSTAND how you
view the relationship.  I think I came out OK, but my teen years might have
been less stressful if I thought my parents were as supportive as they
really were!

I'll shut up now 8-)

--jim

    Something my dad once told me that I thought was funny
    at the time, but as I got older, the wisdom showed through...
    
    "When you are a child, everything your parents say to you
    is dumb, stupid, and taken with a grain of salt.  Ah heck,
    what do they know...etc. etc."
                                 
    "But when you are older, it's amazing how smart your parents
    have become in so short a time"
    
    HRH

    Lynne
    
    That's a paraphrase of a quote by Mark Twain. It goes more or less
    (I don't recall the exact ages involved)..."when I was 17 I thought
    my father was the dumbest man in the world. when I was 25 I was amazed
    at how much he'd learned in 8 years."
    
    Bonnie

    I hate misquotes...English major snobbery:
    
    "When I was 14, my father was so dumb I could hardly stand to have the
    old man around.  When I was 21 I was astonished at how much he had
    learned in 7 years."
    
    -- Mark Twain
    
    and a bonus...
    
    "I would rather decline several drinks than a single German noun."
    
    -- Mark Twain
    
    \D/

    thanks Daniel
    
    I knew it was a long period of time but got the rest of it wrong.
    
    Bonnie

    R e .38
         
    Thanks for the correction....
        
    HRH

    I've always disliked that Mark Twain quote because I don't agree that
    with age we'll come to see how wise our parents were all along.  My
    parents are very nice, well-meaning people, but the things they
    believe that I thought stupid when I was a teenager - things like unmarried 
    women must be unhappy, sex before marriage is sinful, Franklin Roosevelt 
    was dreadful, Nixon was good - I still think are stupid, and I'm in my
    forties now with a teenager of my own.  If I ever do get to the point
    where I'm agreeing with them about a lot THEN I'll be seriously
    worried.
    
                Sue

    re .40, ha-ha, that's a good point.  I feel that way about a number of
    my parents opinions, too.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    I knew y'all would hook me back in if I tried to read-only.  Darn ;-)
    
    Many of you are aware of some of the problems I have beren dealing with
    vis-a-vis Jenni my 16 year old daughter.  A brief summary: thrown out
    by her mother last Christmas, raped 2 or three times in the last 2
    years (the most recent was apparently the worst), rejected by my
    current wife (who claims that she is not rejecting her) and just
    generally living a very messed up life.
    
    Lately, she has become abusive (verbally and emotionally) toward me,
    given to an unpleasantly sharp tongue, disappeared in the middle of the
    night (went to a friends house, but I didn't get any sleep) and
    generally acting out.  When I try to get her involved in ANY family
    activity, her response is "I have plans",  "Daaaaaad, I have a life",
    "I just want to be alone",  "I can take care of myself" etc.
    
    I do talk with her, I do accept her and I do back off as much as
    possible to allow her to learn what life is about.  I also do not think
    it appropriate for a 16 year old to stay at the house of, and sleep in
    the bed with a twenty year old (even IF they "aren't doing anything"), 
    to drink, or to be gone without a known location overnight (but then, I
    have to sleep sometime).  
    
    The nicer I am, the more supportive and considerate, the nastier she
    gets.  To test this hypothesis, I am taking a much tougher stance.  The
    tougher I get, the nicer she is.  An example.  I asked that she
    participate in the laundry.  She begged off, but said she would do all
    of it the next week.  The next week, she kept procrastinating until I
    was forced to do it, so I did only mine and gave her the money to do
    hers when she wanted to.  That was two weeks ago, I suspect she spent
    the money on something else but she, thus far, has not asked me for
    more.  She also has not done her wash.  Her sister and her friends are
    beginning to refuse to allow her to borrow anything.  She now want s me
    to take her shopping for "school clothes" because she is out of things
    to wear.  It is, of course, my fault.  I don't buy it.  She wants to be
    independent, have her freedom and not help in the family.  We shall see
    how that turns out.  
    
    I still love her and let her know.  I believe that she can and will
    come to me with almost anything (everything might be more than anyone
    can do) without fear.  She has done it.  
    
    I gotta tell y'all, I hope this passes.  It is painful to watch and
    more painful to deal with.  I am trying to start a "Tough Love" group
    in Ipswich, MA to help me deal with this.  She is on a path which
    several of her friends have trod (one ended up in reform school another
    was old enough to be evicted by her parents.  Both have talked to me
    and are trying to get Jen to see that she is destroying herself.  They
    hope to help her keep from making their mistakes.  I am not sure it can
    be done 8-{   ).
    
    What I do not tell her, is that she is exhibiting the worst of her
    mothers abusive behaviors.  Her mother is now estranged from both of
    our girls and will most likely end up a lonely, bitter old woman who
    believes that the world is persecuting her.
    
    Sigh
    jimc

    drag her to counseling?  trade it for the laundry maybe?  I seriously
    think a neutral third (5th?) party might be of help here.
    
    good luck anyhow, and hugs, jimc, the situation is clearly hell on you.
    
    Sara
    

    I had her in counseling.  She quit.  I will get back into counseling
    (but she may not be doing anything useful there, yet).
    
    I am in counseling.  It helps some.
    
    jimc

    Greetings,
    
    I started this thing and appreciate the imput you all have put in.
    Within reason one of the big problems with us who have teenage children
    (I think) is that we have moved too much. It seems in stable areas 
    where the same crowd has been around for generations (like me 
    in Stafford Conn. the classes in school had been the same for 8
    years grade 1-8). We've lived in this area for 4 years now and really
    my wife and I don't have any real friends with kids similar age. The
    town we lived in before we knew several couples that were in similar
    children situations. (By the way I've hated this place since a week 
    after we moved here.) But when there are other couples that you can
    see them have similar reactions to what their kids do. Anyway here
    there is noone. 
    
    May I agree wholehardedly with the note that said your parents were
    just as wrong now as they were then. Similarly in my old age I realize
    my parents really loved me but they were AWFULLY concerned with most of
    what I think were the unimportant things of the world. They would never
    say they loved me because that would be like wearing your heart on 
    your sleave. Also I loved the beatles, hippies, radicals and generally 
    am and was something of a smart-alick and have not suffered horendously 
    because of it (as they predicted I would.) I am only 40 so that could 
    still turn around!;-}
    
    Peace,
    
    Fred Mudgett