Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    That is a tough one to answer without more info.  I have been seeing my
    SO on and off for 3 years.  We have a good relationship and really
    enjoy being with one another.  He knows that I would like a committment
    from him and I know and understand that it isn't possible right now. 
    He is a widower with 2 kids, 17 and 12.  After his wife died (5 years
    ago) he wasn't "there" for his kids.  A little over a year ago, him and
    his daughter had a huge fight and she said some things that made him
    sit up and take notice.  Since then he has put them #1 in his life and
    I support him in that.  Do I get frustrated?  Sure I do and sometimes I
    can't hold it in and *I* explode with all of my pent-up feelings.  We
    talk it out, I get reassured that I am a priority in his life, just not
    number 1.  How long to wait?  I don't have an answer for that.  All I
    can do is take it one day at a time, deciding what I need on a daily
    basis, putting myself first.  I have tried many times to let him go,
    including getting into other relationships, but it just doesn't work. 
    We have spent as long as 7 months apart, but always end up getting back
    together.  Sometimes I wish I had a crystal ball and could see the
    future, but I have to practice patience instead.
    
    I hope this helps!
    
    Karen

    No, I don't think I'd propose to a man.
    
    On the other hand, I don't think I would wait for one to propose to me,
    either.
    
    D!

    
    If you want it, ask for it.
    
    "Ultimatums" never work - for obvious reasons.
    
    Wait until you can't wait any longer - not before asking, but
    before leaving, if this is that important to you, and you will
    know when that time is.
    

    
    The 3 times I've been quietly engaged (that means, no big
    announcements, no big plans, no parental involvement), it was kind of
    suddenly mutual.  It was never over dinner with a ring in a glass of
    champagne, or with him on bended knee, it was just a sudden click of
    "this is forever".   Of course, they didn't last forever, but I still
    believe it could happen and last.  I'm a *great* deal warier than
    before though (I believe *jaded* is the term).
    
    How long would I wait?  In my most recent relationship, I promised
    myself I'd wait five years for him to wish to marry me.  It lasted
    three.  Then I woke up and smelled the coffee (you can't MAKE someone
    want to be with you, and waiting it out doesn't make a difference).  I
    guess I wouldn't call it waiting if the relationship was growing all
    the time.
    
    I'm sure if I felt it was a wonderful, growing relationship, I might
    pop the question.  How would I do it?  I'd probably cook him dinner (a
    TOTAL rarity on my part), and serve a ring to him on a velvet pillow
    with his apple pie a la mode by candlelight.  
    
    -Jody
    
    

    I *did* ask him, 20 years ago.  According to him, about a month before
    he was planning to ask me.  He was waiting for an "event", and I was
    too impatient.  But we had been having discussions that indicated we
    were thinking about formalizing the relationship for a couple of months
    at that point.
    
    My parents, neither one ever formally asked.  They just started talking
    about how they wanted to raise their kids, and then about what kind of
    wedding they wanted......
    
    If the two of you are both working toward the same goal, you'll know
    when the moment is ripe.  And it won't much matter which one of you
    does the asking.
    
    Alison

	  My current husband and I had been going out for about 1-1/2 
	  years when he finally proposed.  I had been getting a little
	  ancy about that time thinking that I wanted out so I could
	  get on with my life if he wasn't going to ask me to marry 
	  him.  I let him know how I felt and this "ultimatum" really
	  pissed him off.  It turns out that he had already planned to
	  ask me very shortly but he didn't want to ask me on Valentines
	  Day or my birthday (2/25) since I would be expecting it!  He
	  wanted to surprise me.  I gave him the ultimatum about 4 days
	  before he proposed and he got so mad at me he told me we'd
	  be engaged within the week.  Kinda blew the surprise....

	  In my case, I should have recognized that he was getting
          around to it... the signs were all there anyhow, I was just
	  impatient.  My ultimatum really did not work since he was
	  planning to ask me anyhow.

	  You can just ask questions like "Do you think we'll be together
	  for the rest of our lives?" and "Do you want to get married
	  someday?".  I wouldn't ask them if he hasn't said he loves you
	  or has just started saying it, but as the relationship progresses
	  these should not be difficult questions to ask.  If he says
	  "No" then get out of the relationship.  If he says "Yes, but
	  I'm not ready" ask him why and see if you can really understand
	  his reasons.  If they are not good ones (ie. I'm just not
	  ready yet) I'd think twice about continuing the relationship.
	  If he has been scarred by a past relationship you might find
	  it easier to understand his reluctance a little more.  BTW, the
	  response "I'm just not ready yet" I would find acceptable from	
	  someone in his early twenties who has never been married because
	  he is still quite young and trying to find his direction in life.
	  From an older man (late 20's on) I would be a little more
	  resisting of this response... will he ever be ready?

	  Hope this helps.

	  Karen (married_only_four_weeks_but_feels_she_is_an_expert)  ;-)

I did ask him and that was almost 20 years ago.  Must of made a good choice, 
eh?  ;-)  It was like we almost knew we were going that route anyway but I
felt the need to formalize it and popped the question.

Judy

    I guess I just don't see why ultimata are needed.  Of course, the idea
    of ever getting remarried is anathema to me; I may not be the right one
    to answer this.  (*8
    
    But I don't see why someone is "wasting their time" in a relationship
    if it is not going to end in marriage.  So what?  If you love that
    person, and want to be with hir, then how can you be wasting your time?
    Does this mean you love hir enough to marry, but not enough to just
    stay with?
    
    Isn't that cutting off your nose to spite your face?
    
    E Grace

    
    
    To those of us who want marriage, dealing with someone who isn't
    thinking about it carries risk. In terms of those who tend to be swayed
    by societal norms, there's often a HUGE difference between who you'll
    date, or even live with, and who you'll marry. I'd hate to spend five
    years with a guy only to have him leave me and marry Suzy-Jane because
    she was related to a Cabot and has a trust fund. Or because he always
    promised himself that he'd marry an X woman. But that's because *I*
    would be thinking that I was building on a permanent future. And I'd be
    very disappointed. If I knew going into it that I wasn't "marriage
    material", I probably wouldn't stay unless I wasn't looking for that
    either.
    
    When two people aren't looking, they're probably happier together than
    one who is and one who isn't.

    I think I sort of agree with E (.8) on this one.  (Well, I don't think
    I'd say marriage is actually "anathema" to me...)  :-)  But, I don't
    really understand the need for an ultimatum.  Well, maybe I do for
    women in their 20's who have never been married yet, and want to get
    married and have kids.  After all, if that's what you want to do,
    that's what you want to do, and why waste time with someone who claims
    they don't ever want marriage or kids.  But, I don't understand why
    someone who has been married in the past, or who doesn't want kids
    would make it an ultimatum.
    
    The only time I would ever think of getting married again would be if I
    were to wind up living with someone for at least 10 years, and if the
    relationship seemed to be going great, and we were "getting on"
    (horrors!) in age, then I might begin to think that for various legal
    reasons to do with wills, illness, death, etc., that it might be
    sensible to think about making the relationship legal.  (god, how
    practical and unromantic!)  But, other than that, I'm not sure I care
    to make that type of commitment again myself.
    
    However, 19 yrs. ago, when my ex and I did decide to get married, it
    was the day after we had had a long conversation about living together,
    having kids, love, marriage, etc.  I was the first to bring up the
    actual idea of getting married in the conversation, but he was the one
    who asked the question.  Of course, I had decided I wanted to marry him
    a month after we had started dating, over a year before that, but I was
    smart enough to keep the idea to myself until the time was right.  (It
    was sort of nice being young and idealistic...)
    
    Lorna
     

    I've never been married.  Would NEVER propose.  Would NEVER give an
    ultimatum.  It's not worth it to me.
    
    I would probably only marry for two reasons:  1) to "legitimize" myself
    in the eyes of society to "reap" the so-called "benefits" that happen
    when you're married (in other words, to be able to take the tax
    advantages and all that).  And 2) kids.  But I don't really see the
    need of marriage for having kids ... Becoming a foster mother or
    adopting is a very appealing thing to me.
    
    Guess you could say that, contrary to the way I was raised "get married
    as soon as possible to become "stable" (ha!  from what I see, it causes
    more pain than it's worth!)" -- marriage isn't all it's cracked up to
    be so why bother?  It definitely doesn't bring stability ....
    
    Tammi (still_single_and_doesn't_care)
    

if one partner in a relationship feels the need for marriage, that information
should be expressed to the other partner.  This information should not come
up as an ultimatum, nor during an argument, but during a conversation about
what you both want from a relationship.  However, be prepared for the painful
possibility that the other partner isn't interested in marriage...and/or may 
not consider you "marriage material".  If that information is delivered to you,
BELIEVE IT.  It won't change with time.  If you do want marriage at that
point, you must get out of the relationship and look elsewhere.

If you have a relationship of several years with someone and the subject
hasn't come up, my experience and observation indicates it won't.  Ever.
Again, if you are happy with the way things are, stay and enjoy....otherwise,
face the facts and get out.

to me, marriage is not necessary...nor even terribly attractive...however,
I've seen people in a world of hurt because they wanted the long-term
committment that marriage promises and could not find it with their
current partner....and I know there is no substitute.  I've never seen
an "uninterested partner" suddenly change his/her stripes and decide marriage
is a good idea...and make a good marriage.  I think we each must come to our
own realization of our needs in our own time...

so, say what you gotta say, but be prepared for bad news...

    Well, I did the *actual* pursuit! :-)
    
    So, I let him do the proposing!!!
        
    HRH

    After 2� years of dating and sharing breakfast, lunch, and dinner...
    We got around to the fact that that behavior was desireable, and
    should be continued, with a few extra perks.  After college, it
    would not be so easy to do without living together.  Having been
    schooled harshly by my family/pastor against living together,
    we were to get married, or stop hanging out together.  It will
    be our aniversary this Sunday.
    
    I used to joke about how easy the transition would be.  He could
    just ask me next to the Burger King (I joked) and I would accept
    and we could continue as before... but be engaged.  The day
    before he asked me, he looked at his calendar and said :
     "Hmmmm, July 30'th... today is the day I asked Cindi to marry me."
    I pointed out that he hadn't asked me, or if he had, I had gone
    deaf. He said...
    "Oh yeah... that's tommorow."
    
    The next day... we were standing outside of Burger King and he
    said.... "By the light of the Burger King... will you marry me?"
    
    He had to ask me several times before I believed him (understandably).
    It was not until he bowed before the steps of a Church of my
    denomination and requested my hand that I believed him.
    "Kneeling here by the Church and in the sight of your G-d and
    your teachings... I request that you join with me and agree
    one day to be my wife."
    
    I believed that. The engagement ring came 3 months later.  We told
    our parents one month later.
    
       1� years later, our pastor and families believed it also.
    ... while we kneeled before the alter.
    
    'Ren was right outside ??? riboning the limo???... it was coolness.
    
    Sorry to be long winded....
       but ... 
         anticipating the aniversary... 
            has made me wax nostalgic.
    
    I didn't ask him... I think the situation prompted it's own ultimatum.
    Cindi

Cindi, you're a hopeless romantic.  Don't ever change, PLEASE!

    re .14, .15, it sounds as though he's quite romantic, too!
    I'm impressed.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .15 I learned it from him.  
    Re .16 I was VERY impressed.
        It is silly... but now Burger Kings can make me light-headed.
I hope the other years are fun too...  but that is ... I guess ... another
    topic?
    
    Re- this topic: I had a SO before him ... that was taking
    much longer to reach the same conclusion.  When I met my present SO,
    he proclaimed himself a romantic, and also pushed the point that he
    was "the marying kind". I switched, almost immediatly.  He was, for
    me, irresistable. He was 17.  So my guess is... it is not age,
    it is not money, there is just a random point where SO's decide
    that they will make that move or won't.  I suppose the only way
    around or through it is to talk it out.
    
    Cindi
    Warning ( My perspective may be skewed. )

    
    I'm a little sensitive about what "ultimatum" means, having been
    accused of issuing them in the past (with the implication (and maybe 
    an actual accusation) that this is not a "fair" thing to do, and I'm 
    not sure I agree with that).  This may be a rathole to this topic...  
    but, how is the following _not_ an ultimatum?
    
    Me:  I want to be in a long-term committed relationship.
    Him: Um, er, um.
    Me:  Ok, so long.
    
    This isn't a real conversation!  But it embodies the essence of a 
    real one that actually took place many times in my past.  Whenever
    I wanted to then change the relationship -- either to break off
    completely or be "just friends" -- I then got accused of >gasp<
    "issuing an ultimatum".  It seems really manipulative to me, now.
    Unfortunately I was susceptible to it.
    
    CQ
      

    
    re CQ:
    
    That's not an ultimatum if you *meant* it and *did* it because
    after thinking about the situation, you figured out what you needed
    and wanted to be happy and you went ahead and did it.  For most people
    in relationships of any length, it's not as easy a scenario as you
    seem to paint yours.
    
    "Ultimatums" have no part in true good-faith negotiations.  If a
    person's first step in approching such a relationship problem with
    their partner is, "well, I'm leaving you if you don't commit", that
    tells me that person doesn't even have the most basic understanding
    of the negotiation process, communication, and the *human* process.
    
    Negotiations in relationships mean *both* people both working together
    to figure out and understand exactly what the other person needs,
    wants, and would like, and figuring out realistically if the
    relationship can continue and on what basis, and after examining the
    alternatives, making a decision - alone if negotiation has fallen
    apart, or together if the negotiation process works.
    

    I have a friend who had the opposite response to an ultimatum.
    She called me before she issued it, because I actually think
    ultimatums will work, but only if you are *absolutely* committed
    to carrying them out, and are open to the idea that what you want
    may not happen at all. I never issue ultimatums unless I am prepared
    to take the consequences---and sometimes I haven't liked the 
    consequences of my ultimatums at all.
    
    Anyway, my friend Sue had lived with her boyfriend Bob for a couple
    of years and they felt very committed to each other, but she wanted
    to be married. I think a lot of why she wanted to be married had to
    do with where she worked---she was working in stock brokerage, and she was
    constantly getting hit on by the men she worked with. (The ratio of
    men to women in her office was something like 15 to 1.) She'd answer
    the guys with "I'm in a committed relationship" and they'd answer
    back "if it's so committed, why aren't you married?" That made her
    think about what she wanted her relationship with Bob to be, and she 
    decided she wanted to be married.
    
    So she called me and asked me if I thought she was a fool to issue
    Bob an ultimatum. I said no, if that was what she wanted, but if she
    gave him an ultimatum, she had to be prepared to carry out the "or
    else". She gave him "either we decide to be married within the year, or I
    leave."
    
    He was astonished. And immediately said, "I had no idea that you
    wanted to be married. I didn't think it was that important to you."
    and they got married six months later. 
    
    I'm not saying that ultimatums are great, and if Bob and Sue had a 
    better communication style, this probably would never have happened.
    
    
    

What's wrong with ultimatums?

People have priorities in life - sometimes those priorities are so important
that all other things must make way.

Ithink if you have such a priority, then it is only honest to tell your
partner that.

Ultimatums don't have to be *threats* - you don't have to phrase them such
that the onus lies on the other person.  But I think it is perfectly reasonable
to say (as I have done in the past)...

"Continuing to see you while you see other women is hurtful to me, and I
can't do it anymore.  If you want to continue seeing other women, I will
have to stop seeing you."

"School is top priority in my life, and our relationship has been interefering
with school.  If you can't be supportive of my school work, then I will have
to move out."

D!

    If I'd wanted to get married, I would have proposed.
    
    As it is, I think it would have been nice if Rick had mentioned that
    he wanted to get married before telling everyone we were getting
    married -- lucky for him, he didn't mention any dates or time-frames so
    he didn't have to go about retracting anything ....
    
    I guess I _did_ sort of ask him to marry me [after the above-mentioned]
    snafu ... only it was mote like "excuse me a minute, Mother. Rick? do
    you still want to get married? Yeah?  OK, Mother, you can start
    unpacking.  You can't make me go with you."
    
      Annie

    re. Note 906.21                 
    TLE::DBANG::carroll "Hakuna Matata"                  

    >"Continuing to see you while you see other women is hurtful to me, and I
    >can't do it anymore.  If you want to continue seeing other women, I will
    >have to stop seeing you."

    >"School is top priority in my life, and our relationship has been interefering
    >with school.  If you can't be supportive of my school work, then I will have
    >to move out."

    In both examples I _like_ how the first sentence is phrased, but the
    second sentence sounds like you're drawing the obvious conclusion 
    for the addressee. Maybe I'm the only one but *I hate it* when
    people do that to me. It feels insulting to my intelligence, which 
    results in my taking the whole thing as a threat, and puts me in 
    defensive mode. (And unfortunately, my defensive mode makes the 
    Terminator look like Bambi. No ;-) )
    
D!

    
    
    Well, I'm very glad that my boyfriends X gave him an ultimatum.
    She gave up a wonderful man who wasn't ready to be married. Now
    he's my wonderful man!
    
    
    bonnie

    I think it's okay sometimes to give ultimatums on serious issues that
    really affect one's basic life's happiness.  But, there are some people
    who seem to give ultimatums constantly, over all sorts of things
    imaginable, throughout relationships and after awhile that drives me
    crazy.  One of my boyfriends got into the habit that whenever *any*
    minor thing didn't go the way he would have liked, or if I did anything
    differently than he would have thought perfect, he would shout, "If
    this happens again it's over!  You can just move out!" or something
    similar.  After awhile, I was so sick of it my ready answer was, "Fine. 
    I'll be happy to leave.  Anything to get away from you."
    
    Lorna
     

    re.24
    
    So, are you saying that he would have married her had she not given
    him an ultimatum?  or that he really didn't love her enough to make
    a "marriage" committment as he obviousily does with you?

I would NEVER ask someone to marry me. For two reasons. The first is a basic
emotional fear I have. I need to feel wanted and would need the proof that they
wanted me. My asking wouldn't do that. 

Second, as so many divorced women have discovered, the "stability" of marriage
was a joke. I wouldn't feel as if a wedding ring gave me any more security than
just living with someone. The only real need for marriage is legal ease in
raising children. liesl

        re .25, Lorna, you should have told him, "That's it!  No
        more ultimatums from you.  Or else." :-)
        
        Dan