Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    Woman friends help me find myself and center myself.
    
    I recently drew an analogy between myself and my best friend.
    
    "I picture myself to be a fossil.  And you're sitting there, picking
    away and scrubbing away with the tiniest of implements, scraping and
    brushing, rubbing and cleansing, to bring me forth whole...."
    
    I had few womanfriends before coming to DEC, and how I cherish the ones
    I have now!
    
    I am rich with their caring, touched by their words, strengthened by
    their sharings.....
    
    -Jody
    

    see also
    
    womannotes-V3 (this file)
    176 - do we value our female friendships enough?
    178 - best friends: a female phenomenon?
    
    

    My friendships with women have evolved.....having friends has not been
    an easy thing for me....as a younger woman I was always seeking what
    can you do for me.....I need someone to take care of me....there was
    alot of I can't do it on my own.....there were alot of issues about
    trust....
    
    I've never truly had a best friend until I met Jean.....we are friends
    because of the type of human beings we are.....
    
    What I appreciate now is the fact the women that I have met here at DEC
    have treated me as an equal and give me support that is healthy and
    loving for me and I can give back that support and I feel so good about
    it......The trust is there.......
    
    denise
    
    

E, thanks for starting this topic...I've been meaning to start a similar one
for a while...

My kinda more general friend question is...how, as an adult, do you cultivate
friendships? I just can't seem to get the hang of it. I remember when I was
a kid, you could go up to someone on the play ground and say, "I'll give you 
a nickle if you'll be my friend" and you'd be friends for a very long time.Now,
as an adult, it seems like I meet people at work and maybe we'll go out
once or twice..but it's not the same. I mean if I want to ramble 
incoherantly about the soaps, I have to call my friend in Denver (the one
I offered a nickle to about 20 years ago:-)

So how do grown ups make friends?

dee

    I'll second Dee's question!
    
    I've never had many friends.  In fact, traditionally, I have had two
    friends - one lover and one best friend.  Who those people were would
    change periodically (the former more than the latter) but it was always
    that two.  Then I would have a circle of aquaintances - people who
    would invite me to parties or outings, people I would hang out with on
    occasion, but not *friends* - not people I talked to or shared my life
    with or gave support to.  
    
    I've never been sure how to move aquaintanceships into friendships. 
    In school there were people I got along with great in classes, would
    sometimes eat lunch with them in the cafeteria, etc, but we never did
    things together outside school.  Here at work there are people I know
    through notes or work, we send mail, we get along great at work or at
    parties, but that is the extent of our relationship.  How to move it to
    the next level?
    
    Anyway, to answer the original question, friends are very important to
    me.  My Best Friend, whoever she was at any given time (same one for
    the last 9 years, wheee!) was always my life, my comfort, my
    inspiration.  But I have taken her for granted, and shunted her aside
    for my lover.  What made her *best* friend was that she would always be
    there for me afterwards.  It worked both ways - I got shunted aside for
    lovers, too, and I would be always be there for her when it was gone.
    
    Now I am realizing that friends are important even while you have a
    lover, and that their place in my life is special, not to be taken for
    granted.  I am so glad that I am actually starting to get some
    woman-friends for the first time in my life.  It is slow and sometimes
    painful, but so wonderful!!
    
    E: hugs!!  :-)
    
    D!

    D!: hugs back atcha!
    
    I think sometimes we misunderstand what friendship means.  I consider
    you to be my friend, D!; I *know* I am yours.  But there are levels and
    levels of sharing.
    
    I can not share all of my reality with all of my friends.  It would be
    too painful; I would feel like a constantly opening wound.  Heck, I am
    not yet able to share all of my reality with *me*!
    
    I never had many friends before I came to DEC.  I was sort of wierd. 
    I'm still wierd, I just found a haven.  
    
    The women I have met here, who have become my friends, are helping me
    believe in myself.  As I have mentioned before, I am an ACoA. 
    Cognizant thinking does not work for me because the answers are *not*
    inside me.  They were never planted.  
    
    Now, I have some women in my life that are convincing me that I *am* 
    sometimes funny.  That I *am* smart.  That I *do* have some wisdom.  That 
    I *am* valued.  Not by telling me, like a bunch of sycophants, over and 
    over that I am those things.  No, by laughing at my silliness, by asking 
    me questions and expecting that I will know an answer, by showing me 
    problems because they feel I may have the wisdom to deal with them, by 
    thanking me just for being who I am. 
    
    For the first time in my life, I do not automatically assume a hidden
    agenda of spite when people tease me.  Which is a darn good thing!  (*8
    
    How did I do this?  How did I allow these acquaintanships to grow into
    friendships?  By just allowing them to.
    
    E Grace
    

    D! wrote something I can relate to well.  I've had a best friend for
    about 15 years, and had always shunted her aside for boyfriends or
    husbands.  She was always there, she never abandoned me, even when
    I isolated myself when things were going terrible for me.  In recent
    months she and her husband have been there for me, and I have had 
    opportunities to be there for them as well.  I've worked harder to
    nurture the friendship, and really felt good when one day, after
    turning down a date with a terrific guy, I was telling her that I 
    told him I had a prior committment with my best friend.  She said,
    "I was expecting you to cancel our plans for him. But you didn't and
    that makes me feel that our friendship is important to you.  You've
    really grown a lot and I am proud of you." 
    
    Women are wonderful people, and I am so surprised not to have realized
    it sooner.  Through this file, plus therapy, plus plain old growth and
    maturation, I have learned what warm, and truly caring, strong and
    nurturing people they (we) are.  Ever since I've begun tapping this
    great resource, my life has become richer.
    
    Kim

    I have tried and tried to come up with a defination that would best
    describe a friend..the only word that kept coming to mind was 
    UNCONDITIONAL......though I know many people (or at least i think I
    know many people), there are few who have made it all the way in and
    over this wall I put up to protect my inner self....there are even
    fewer woman friends whom I cry in front of...those are people are my
    true friends...the funny thing about it though is that I met these
    women in high school and we're still as close now as we were 16 years
    ago when we first met. In fact, one buddy is getting married and I am 
    her maid of honor next month.
    
    A true friend will grow with you or shall I say, let you grow when you
    need to or want to....our lives lead us in so many directions, there's
    work, home, love life, vacation spots etc...
    
    I always want to meet new people and be their friend...I guess the more
    people around me, the goofier I can act and get away with it...the true
    friends i have now, I would not trade for the world...no matter where I
    go, I know I can always come back and they will have a special place in
    their lives for me and I for them.
    
    peg

    
    My girlfriend Pat is the person I "work things out" with.  She
    listens, asks pertinent questions, makes me think.  It's a great
    bonus that we enjoy biking, climbing, hiking together.  We discuss
    relationships, families, work, our lives, and outlooks.  I can't
    explain it exactly, but even though we're very different in some
    fundamental personality-type ways, she's a good "mirror" for me.
    I see myself better through her.
    
    No lover/spouse could ever give me what I get from Pat.
    

    >I think sometimes we misunderstand what friendship means.  I consider
    >you to be my friend, D!; I *know* I am yours.  But there are levels and
    >levels of sharing.
    
    Absolutely!  I consider you a friend (of course!)  There are different
    levels of friendship.  And there are different levels of
    aquaintenceships.  At first glance, the gap between the two seems
    narrow - the difference is hard to define - but after awhile it
    seems like it is almost impossible to cross.
    
    Lately I have been managing to cross it. I'm not sure how, though! 
    With you, E, with a couple of women in this file, with a couple of men and
    women in my life.  It is terrific, I am revelling in it.  In fact, this
    last year has been my best ever, and that is due in large part to the
    fact that I seem to be gaining skill in this friendship thing!
    
    But I'd still like to know what to do, because there are women I meet
    that I'm aquaintances with that I would *like* to become friends with. 
    But it isn't like dating.  When I am interested in dating someone, I
    say "I find you attractive, lets go out".  Then we go out, and if we
    like eachother we go out again, and eventually, if it works out, we
    become lovers.  The progression is natural, and the only gap that needs
    leaping is that initial "will you go out with me?"  And that, while
    scary, feels natural.  It doesn't feel as natural to say to someone "I
    really like you, let's go out [implied: in a non-romantic way]."
    
    The problem is axcaberated by the fact that, being bisexual, everyone
    is a *potential* partner, and anyone who knows I am bisexual knows
    that.  Therefore I am afraid when I make overtures of friendship that
    they will be misinterpretted as overtures of romance.  That can get
    ugly if they are interested in me that way, and I am not in them; it
    can also be disappointing if they are  *not* interested in me that way,
    think that is all I am interested in, and so avoid me.
    
    What is a friend?  Damned if I can define it.  It is especially hard
    because you're right, there are multiple levels, but they are still
    friends.  There are Best Friends, but that doesn't make "normal"
    friends any worse.  What does it mean?  A friend is someone you like to
    spend time with, who you trust, who you can talk about things with
    (even if those things aren't the deep-deep parts of yourself), someone
    you feel comfortable asking a favor from, someone you would miss if you
    couldn't see them anymore.
    
    At very least (and this is the barrier I have trouble crossing) a
    friend is someone you wouldn't feel weird calling up and saying let's
    go to a movie, or out to eat, or something.  
    
    D!

    More thoughts...
    
    (this is a topic I spend a lot of time thinking about.)
    
    I am a 10 out of 10 on the extrovert scale.  One of the things this
    entails is that I *love* having aquaintances.  I love chatting with
    people.  I love bouncing around from one group to another at a big
    party.  I love meeting new people.  This is wonderful, it is my
    element.
    
    But one of the down sides of it is that it can be hard for me to get
    close to someone.  It is really easy for me to strike up a conversation
    with someone I just met, but really hard for me to carry that
    conversation on for more than 5 minutes of trivialities.
    
    No one ever believes me when I say it, but I am terribly shy.  The more
    I like someone, the more I want to impress them, the more nervous I
    get.  I stumble. I run out of things to say.  I put my foot in my
    mouth.  In general I avoid this discomfort by bouncing on to the next
    person, the next 5 minute conversation.  So I never get to *know*
    anyone.  I always appear super comfortable, the ultimate in sociability,
    but the truth is that I just can't get past that initial superficial
    "hi my name is Diana what do you do where do you live oh isnt that nice
    I must be going now" conversation.
    
    And while having a gazillion million aquaintances is *fun*, when I am
    sitting home alone on a Friday night, all those gazillion aquaintances
    don't do me nearly the good that one friend would do.
    
    All tips appreciated.
    
    D!

    Gee, D! *I* think you're doing great!  It has taken me until my 30's (I
    know that is not grammatically correct, word police!) to begin to find
    good friendships.  I also am happy that I have more than 1 female
    friend.  I don't have a huge amount, but the ones I have are each very
    special, and add to my life something I would miss if it were taken
    away.
    
    E Grace

    RE:         -< a shy extrovert >-
    
    
    Hmmmmmm.....I seem to have heard that phrase somewhere before!  (*8
    
    Who'd have guessed that we are so much alike.
    
    E Grace

    Women come first.
    
    After men have come and gone (accept the pun if you wish), your
    women friends are still there for you.  It behoves one to invest
    a significant portion of your energies into preserving relationships
    with females.
    
    With men, even in the most banal of relationships, there appears
    to be a point where the closeness becomes tied with the physical.
    It is hard to separate that.  I find that many men do not understand
    that, and must be tossed out when they can not understand the
    distinction.  Hopefully before they hurt you. With women and my 
    heterosexual nature, the line on that is always clear.  I love that.
    
    As for having many friends...
       It is hard to support many true friends in the manner to which
    a true friend deserves to be treated.  .. . The few precious jems, 
    however, you should hold on to, and care for them as though they
    were yourself... for in many ways... they are halves of your whole.
    Their opinions, ideas, interpretations, and perspectives are
    treasures indeed.
    
    As for the few men that can make the physical separation...
    They are to be treasured almost more so... because they are
    so hard... desperately hard ... and dangerous to find.
    
    Cindi

    
>    No one ever believes me when I say it, but I am terribly shy.  The more

	I believe you. :*]  (It's one of my pet theories that everyone 
	feels that they are shy)

    
>    And while having a gazillion million aquaintances is *fun*, when I am
>    sitting home alone on a Friday night, all those gazillion aquaintances
>    don't do me nearly the good that one friend would do.

	Sounds familiar.  I tend to make a lot of acquaintances too.  It
	seems to me that, as mentioned before, the difficult step is the
	migration from acquaintance to friend.  

	It's easy for me to talk to acquaintances (and sometimes even 
	strangers), because I haven't invested a lot of myself in them -- 
	I'm not so worried about what they'll think of me.  With friends, 
	they (hopefully) know me well enough that an isolated incident won't 
	change their opinion of me.  What's important is that I think that's
	the case, whether it is or not.

	But when I meet someone I like and want to become friends with, I
	tend to get so wrapped up in making a good impression that I trip
	all over myself.  Luckily, it's not always *too* bad -- I somehow
	end up with a few friends.  I guess the trick is to try to be myself,
	but that can be tough.  Instead I end up *acting* like myself, which
	isn't the same thing at all.  Maybe it's a Zen thing.



	-A

    E Grace and D! I think you are both very special women.  E Grace I
    relate completely with note .6.  Cultivating friendships is one of the
    hardest things for me to do.  Taking a major risk here, but I am a
    survivor of childhood sexual abuse (both female and male, mom being the
    primary offender) and trust in either men or women is extremely hard
    for me.  Having to survive all the icky stuff all those years did not
    allow me to learn how to have friendships.  As soon as I feel someone
    moving in too close, I run in the other direction as fast as I can. 
    That's not to say that I don't have some close friends.  I still keep
    in contact with my best friend from childhood and in my recovery I have
    two women that are very special to me.  Sadly, one moved to Florida and
    the other moved 100 miles north of here last year.  I have not been
    able to cultivate any new close friends since then.  I am not an
    extrovert and I approach new people with extreme caution.  I am just
    beginning to see that I approach new people with an immediate dislike,
    without attempting to get to know them. 
    
    What I have experienced with my 2 friends that no longer live here is
    their unconditional love and acceptance of me.  They were the 2 that
    gave me unconditional support when I was remembering the abuse and they
    taught me alot about support, love and patience.  I only hope I can
    give back to others what they so freely gave to me.
    
    Karen

    
    It was serendipity meeting and "falling in love with" (if you'll
    excuse the expression, but it kind of fits) Pat (whom I mentioned
    a few replies back) 5 years ago.  The place where you are in life
    when you meet someone and where they are in life determines a lot
    about what will happen between the two of you.
    
    I had just (within weeks) moved out from a 6-year relationship
    when I met Pat, and a bit in need of a friend.  Pat had been in
    town less than 2 yrs and had moved out of a relationship within
    the past year.  We were both open and needing of new friends, new
    activities, and a new "way of life".
    
    That magic summer, she found a new love and I regained the old one.
    But she and I were hooked together for (what looks like) good.
    
    I'm not sure, but I don't think that this could (as easily, anyway)
    happen again for me today, in the place that I am now.  Then again,
    if Pat moved out of town or something, I might be.  (-:
    

    D! (.11)
    
    Sounded like your describing me.  I've found a better word for the
    behavour it's *gregarious*, your social but shy.
    
    I also have had few friends, I kept most people at bay with a false
    boundary that had "this is not me" written all over it.  Every time
    I drop that boundary I find another potential friend.
    
    Allison

    D
    
    I want to remark on the piece that you mentioned about friends vs.
    lovers and how the part of going out with someone to perhaps becoming
    lovers is easier than becoming friends....I know for the longest time
    that friends=sex.....I could not define the two differently and that
    cause alot of pain and confusion and I think I lost good friends
    because I could not separate it......I think now I am wiser and
    starting for figure it out and hopefully this will allow me to enjoy my
    women friends without any complications.....
    
    denise
    
    
    

When I stopped thinking about myself as "incomplete" without a man "to call
my own" (how's that for a trigger statement?), I learned to truly appreciate
the special bond I can develop with a woman or man with whom I have a 
friendship.  In my case, I think I really began to love my friends when I
stopped *looking* for someone to "love" me....it took my resignation from
the "dating" world for this to occur.  

I have more time to devote to developing and nurturing the friendship and,
in return, I have much stronger and more supportive friendships.  I have also
learned that, while total honesty can be hard to take, the relaxed honesty of
two friends, both of whom accept themselves as "good" humans, is so good to
experience....it is positively energizing.  

I have learned to appreciate the special qualities of the people I know...as
PEOPLE; less as "men" and "women", more as unique individuals, each with
a wealth of complex and subtle lessons to teach me...and, I hope, to learn
from me.

I love my friends....women and men.  I have learned that they are my true
source of strength, and the primary wellspring of joy in my life.  I have
created my own family....and it is full of wonderful people.

    Thanks for starting this note, E.  Making friends is something
    that I've been thinking about a lot recently.

    As a child I had few friends and never a best friend.  My family moved
    frequently (the military life) and long term friendships were just not
    possible.  In high school I had a circle of friends, but most were
    cliquish and I was always on the fringe of their cliques - never
    accepted as a full fledged member.  But in college, I bloomed.  I had a
    large circle of friends that accepted me and that I loved very much.
    I had a few close friends and a best friend.  Just thinking back now
    about them puts a smile on my face.  But after college we all scattered
    across the country and eventually lost contact.

    I came to New England where I literally knew no one.  I thought it was
    an adventure.  I had confidence in my ability to make new friends. But
    it never happened that way.  For ten years I made no friends except the
    casual friendships of people I worked with.  But no one to ask to a
    movie or dinner or anything outside the office.  And no one who could
    give me emotional support when I needed it.  I used to blame it on the
    alleged coldness and unfriendliness of New Englanders.  But, a few years
    ago I did become good friends with three of the women I worked with and
    I became very close friends with one of them.

    I'm more of an introvert.  I find large parties difficult. I don't do
    the bouncing around thing very well.  And I find other people's bouncing
    around somewhat unnerving because I feel rejected when they move on to
    the next person.  I prefer smaller more intimate gatherings and I
    really come into my own when I'm one on one.  But I  can't do that with
    just anyone.

    I often have the feeling that people just tolerate me to be polite.
    That there is something about me that is unappealing to other people
    but I'm the only one who doesn't know what it is and everyone else
    can see it right off.  And if they don't see it right off, they will
    eventually reject me when they get to know me.

    My "best friend" in college and two of my recent friendships ended up
    with my friends telling me suddenly and without much explanation that
    they wished to terminate the friendship.  I figured I must be a real
    awful person to have this happen to me three times.  But I think the
    truth is I have a kind of attraction to people who fear intimacy and
    my intimacy, commitment and loyalty are frightening to them and
    damaging to me.  My experince is sort of the flip side of Karen's(.16)
    As soon as I move in too close, my friend runs in the other direction.
    Which causes me to want to persue, which makes her pull away even
    harder and so it escalates.
    
    Ellen, I liked what you said about "falling in love" with your best
    friend.  I find that I've experienced it the same way and I've never
    heard anyone say that.  People have told me that if I fall in love
    with a woman I must be a lesbian.  Somehow falling in love is linked
    in people's minds with sexual attraction.  Although I see the two
    as separate but often occurring together.  People will easily
    acknowledge the possibility of sexual attraction without love, but
    not vice versa.  Why not?  I'm sexually attracted to a man's body,
    but I fall in love with a person, not a body.

    I agree with Cindi, that you can't really have a lot of close friends.
    You only have so much time to devote.  If you have a lover and two
    or three intimate friends, and then a handful of close friends, that's
    doing well.  I think some folks tend to go for depth in friendships
    and other tend to go for breadth, i.e. one very intimate friend
    versus a lot of "acquaintances".  I think the trick is to reach a
    comfortable balance.  I'm a depth type of person and I've suffered
    from it because I didn't have the breadth to support me when I lost
    friendships.

    To address the question of how to make friends,  I think part of it is
    being in the right places to meet potential friends.  This is something
    I don't think I do well.  I tend to meet people only at work.  I'd like
    to ask you all, where did you meet your friends?

    Once having met and become interested, friendships develop for me by
    taking the risk of sharing intimacies, by trusting the other person.
    To me its amazing how someone will share something intimate about
    themselves once you have shared something with them.

    This has *got* to be the longest note I've ever written.  I have a
    reputation for keeping my notes short and to the point.  And I
    generally hit "next reply" when I see a long note.  (To me 80 lines
    is long.)  Thanks, if you read this far.
    
    Mary

    I read the whole thing Mary!  Wow, thanks for writing that!  Even
    though you and I are very different (extroverts and introverts will
    differ that way) I could relate to a lot of it.
    
    Yes, indeed, where *do* we meet friends?
    
    I met my Bestest Friend is the weirdest way.  I love this story! :-)  I
    started dating a guy, who (in theory) dumped Hagan for me. In
    actuality, Hagan was glad to get rid of him.  But I didn't know that,
    and I was terribly jealous, and I hated her, even though I had never
    met her.  To "prove" to me that he didn't want her anymore, Jonathan
    started being ultra-super-nasty to Hagan.  This really pissed Hagan
    off, so she decided (being the vindictive 15 year old that she was)
    that she would get her revenge by getting me to dump him.  So she
    convinced her *new* boyfriend Larry to "pretend" to like me, just long
    enough to steal me away from Jonathan, and then for Larry to dump me. 
    To this end, she decided to "feign" friendship with me, to push me
    towards Larry.
    
    It didn't work that way.  Larry ended up liking me more than her and
    dumping her for me. Upon spending tons of time together during this
    "feigned friendship" Hagan and I discovered that we were, essentially,
    soul-mates.  Eventually both Larry and Jonathan disappeared from our
    lives, but we are still best friends (and now roommates) 8 years and a
    few months later.
    
    But, in general, I would not recommend this as a way to meet friends. 
    :-)
    
    I have had so few friends that I can practically enumerate.  I met
    Caitlin because she took clarinet lessons from the same teacher and he
    set us up to play duets together.  I met Kelly because she lived up the
    street and was really bored one day, so came over and introduced
    herself.  I met Susan because she lived next door.  I met Hagan as
    described above.  I met Michele, Leili, Anouk and Denise because they 
    lived on my floor my freshman year in college.  I met the rest of my
    freshman year gang (the others were male) at the freshman dance.
    (Freshman year was the  easiest time I have ever had making friends -
    it is wonderful to be in a  place where everyone is lost, lonely and
    new.)  In the last three years I have met a number of wonderful people
    through notes. 
    
    And other than that, every single one of my friends has been an
    ex-lover.  (That number is quite large.)  *sigh*
    
    D!

    
    I meet friends in the strangest places.  Work has given me mostly
    acquaintances, but some friends.  I've met friends through notesfiles,
    USENET, Science Fiction conventions, Renaissance Faires, College
    friends keep cropping up and I connect with new ones on occasion, I
    meet friends through other friends, I've met friends through spiritual
    growth in different directions, I've met friends through hobbies and
    clubs, just hanging out at the library or museum.  I guess I'm a
    gregarious introvert, truth be told.  And since I dismantled many of my
    walls, I'm probably not difficult to talk to in an acquaintance type
    way anymore.
    
    -Jody
    

    Random thoughts:
    
    I'm hesitant to claim friendship until time has passed and love has
    grown, because it is not just my commitment but one that is mutual.    
    
    We have a poster in my church (LDS) that pictures two friends walking and
    talking together.  The caption reads:  Eternity is a long time...so
    take along a friend.  
    
    I've found friends* everywhere:  in my family, at geographic locations 
    (and relocations), at work, through notes (no friends in WN yet, but 
    many people to admire and respect), at school, at church.  There 
    can never be too many, though it is difficult to keep up.  My friends 
    and I juggle, using phone, letters (rarely!), e-mail, journals in two
    cases, and time together to strengthen the bonds.  We seem to share the 
    responsibilities of friendship; sometimes one or another is the more 
    active or passive.
    
    I believe that the only things I will take with me from mortal life
    are:  knowledge, and relationships.
    
    Moving from acquaintance to friend, for me, requires time together.
    Once friendship is established, I find it can take a lot of stretching
    across time without meeting but I wish it wasn't necessary  :(
    
    I'm grateful for friendship, a beautiful dance! and especially grateful
    for friends who dance it with me.
    aq
    
    * or we've found each other
                                

    Mary, I could relate to a lot of what you've said. I'm very shy. I
    don't like big parties. I feel very uncomfortable bouncing from group
    to group. If there are more than six to eight people, I just disappear
    into the woodwork. I can talk a lot with my close friends, but have very
    little to say to acquaintances. This makes it very difficult for me to
    make new friends.
    
    I have always had a few close women friends. Never one best friend,
    more like three or four very good friends. Most of them have been my
    roommates or lived in the same dorm as I did. 
    manisha 
    

    Most people think I'm an extrovert, and that is usually true,
    BUT, only in a setting where I feel comfortable, i.e. among
    a group of fellow animal lovers, for instance.  I liked some
    of the things you said, Mary, as I could relate to a lot of
    them.  Maybe we both have this invisible *thing* that makes
    people run in the other direction.  However, I do still have
    a close best friend relationship with my best friend from
    highschool, even though we do not get to see each other often.
    When we get together, no matter how long between visits, it's
    just like the way we were back 14+ years ago.  It is a relationship
    that I cherish, and it does mean a lot to me........ 
    I do not have a lot of close woman friends right now....no one
    I could pick up the phone and ask to share a movie (My hubby hates
    going to the movie theaters.....and I hate going alone) or go
    shopping with, or just invite over for a cold drink and a few
    laughs.  I miss that part, most of all.  I'm kind of an introvert
    at big parties (If the hosts aren't my friends), and my being 
    uncomfortable shows, I guess.  I talk too much, IMO,(and others,
    who have been less then kind in informing me of the fact!) which 
    I've been trying to curb, by being a listener instead.  I've worked
    hard for the things I've got, and have had people treat me like
    dirt because I have what they covet, but they don't seem to understand
    that these things weren't handed to me, that I had to bust my butt 
    working to get them....I think I'm a generous person, too, but I've
    met too many willing to take without any type of return at all....
    I don't mean money, BTW, I just mean offering friendship, or offering
    to help me out on something they have experience in.....I guess
    I don't understand why other people don't/aren't willing to share
    like I do.  Share in their time, their lives, their talents......
    
    Lynne     

    re. 21
    Mary, I relate perfectly to what you said.  Especially the part that
    sometimes you feel that people just tolerate you, that there must be
    something wrong with you.  I have felt that way my entire life.  I
    don't enjoy large parties either and would just as soon not go.  I do
    enjoy casual times with friends, people I feel ultra-super safe with. 
    On my birthday this year I took a risk and had a small party which
    turned out wonderfully.  I am just now beginning to see that it is not
    the fact that I am horrible, awful person to be with, I just don't let
    anyone new cross my boundries.  Because of the way I feel about myself,
    call it personal identity, I just don't allow people in.
    
    Karen

    re: 27
    Karen, you and I seem like two sides of the same coin.  While you
    relate to what I said, I'm very eager to allow people in.  I just feel
    no one is really that interested.
    
    Mary

    
    I have 1 Best Friend, she's been my "best" for about 30+years, and I am
    so thankful for her.
    
    I have 1 Really good friend, and I am thankful for her also.
    
    I have many acquaintenances, and I like these also.
    
    
    But if you are lucky enough to have 1 Best friend, I think you are the
    luckiest person in the world.  They don't come along toooooo often and
    when they do.....it's the best!
    
    I treasure our relationship!
    
    
    Jackie                      

    I've always been the type to have a few very close friends rather than
    a large group of acquaintances.  It also seems to me that it takes me
    longer to get used to new people, and feel comfortable around them,
    than it seems to take most people.  It's as though I have to take
    awhile to check people out first and make sure they aren't dangerous,
    not in real ways like violence, but that they aren't somehow
    emotionally frightening to me.  I often enjoy individuals a lot, and
    would be miserable as a hermit, but in certain ways people, in general,
    scare the hell out of me.  They can be so rotten to each other.  
    
    I enjoy people the most in one-on-one situations.  I think that's when
    you really get to know each other.  As I've read before, but can't
    remember the exact quote, "There's no sense in knowing 100 people you
    can play tennis with if what you really want is someone to pour your
    heart out to."
    
    I do agree that the older I get the more difficult it seems to be to
    make new female friends, and I think that makes me value the ones I
    already have more than I ever did before.  It seems that the older
    women get the more busy their lives become.  Married women, especially
    women with young children often seem to be totally wrapped up in their
    families, and Lesbians and bi women seem to have close ties in their
    own subculture that tend to exclude straight women.  
    
    It seems strange to me that we live in a world where it may be easier
    to find someone to have sex with than to go shopping with.  Why should
    going shopping with someone be seen as more of a commitment than having
    sex with them?  That's not the way I thought it would be when I was
    younger.  When I was a teenager I used to think it would always be
    easier to find women friends than male lovers but that may not be the
    case.  (That doesn't mean I would want it to be difficult to find
    lovers.  I would like it to be easy to find both!)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    THANK'S FOR STARTING THIS!!!
    
    I've been thinking about starting a note about this but I
    was shy about publicizing that I have problems with women 
    friends.
    
    I'm very relieved that there are other women out there like
    me.  I'm 23 years old and have no friends left from my home
    town and only one left over from college.  In the 3 years
    I've been out of college, I've made friends but now they're
    all having babies and frankly, I just don't seem to factor
    in.  To complicate matters, I'm married.  Which means that
    ultimately, a woman friend would like my husband, (but not
    too much) or maybe have an SO who likes my husband.  My
    husband is a great person, my best friend actually, marriage
    just complicates friendships, I think.
    
    D:  I too have many aquaintances, (sp), but nobody to just gab
    with or go golfing or go shopping or shoting ...  My poor
    husband is probably getting tired of trying to fill all those
    roles for me.
    
    I know friendships are supposed to "just happen" but they
    don't.  I'm sorry if I sound depressed.  It's been a bad day.  
    I'm looking forward to reading replies from women who are good
    at friendships.  I think I could use lots of advice.  
    
    It seems to me that in this notes conference people care but
    in the real world nobody does.  I'm not sure I said this right
    but everyone here is so supportive.  In the real world 
    physical people are always in a hurry.  Maybe our society is so
    rushed that we don't (want to) take the needed time?
    
    Rachael
    

    It seems to me that in this notes conference people care but
    in the real world nobody does.  I'm not sure I said this right
    but everyone here is so supportive.  In the real world 
    physical people are always in a hurry. 

Rachael, I think this is a good point - it is very easy to be supportive
and give e-hugs (as opposed to giving hugs to E, which is also very easy,
but different :-) but how many of us do the same for our real-life friends?
I myself find it much easier to be "intimate" with the barrier of the 
computer than face to face.  

When a woman I never met comes into =wn= and discusses her difficulties with 
her SO or children or whatever, I can offer support and advice.  But if, say,
a co-worker came into my office and started saying the same things, I would
be at a total loss!  I would feel threatened!

The same thing happens with support groups and the like - in the atmosphere
with supportiveness is "in" people can be giving and sharing and loving, but
they never modify their outside behavior.  I think many of us (myself included)
would benefit greatly by trying to take some of the warmth we have learned
in =wn= out into the real world.

It reminds of the song "easy to be hard"

"How can people be so heartless,
how can people be so cruel?
Especially people who care about strangers,
who care about evil, and social injustice?
How about a needy friend?
I need a friend..."

D!

    re .32, one of my favorite songs.  (Reminds me so much of an
    ex-boyfriend.) 
    
    Lorna
    

    
    How strange... I find that I try my best to be warm and friendly and
    caring and supportive to most people I know. But I also notice that
    people think its strange. And not everyone likes it. And not everyone
    opens up...
    
    I'm having a sh*tty day...

    Hugs 'ren
    
    lots of us do like it, don't think you are strange and do appricate it.
    
    Bonnie

    re .32
    That's funny D. Before =wn=, I would have had terrible troubles dealing
    with offering advice. Especially to a family member. Just recently I
    sat down with my sister and had a real heart-to-heart around her son
    getting a woman pregnant and what he might be feeling and some of the
    options he might pursue. Sad to say that he is pursuing the one wrong
    option available. Abandoning both woman and child. Bastard. but he is
    only 21 and while legally and adult, is still immature. Enough of that
    in this string. Before =wn=, I couldn't have done this on a real
    wholehearted basis and even find it easier to deal with people and be
    friendly with people in "reality". Before, I would have spouted off a
    bit of psychobabble and commiserated a little and sent them on their
    way. Now, I find that I take the time to ask questions and find out the
    whole of the matter and try to offer real, concrete advice. If nothing
    else, at least =wn= has taught me how to be a real friend. I am
    grateful. 
    
    PJ

    
    *HUGS*, 'ren.  I, for one, very much appreciate your kindness 
    and concern.
    
    Love,
    
    Carla
    

    How could anyone *not* like you being you?
    
    E Grace

    
    re .31, Rachel:
    
    I, too, remember having a difficult time when I was just out
    of college, about your age.  I left my hometown behind, what friends
    were left there, left college and friends there, and moved to a new
    city 350 miles away.  Of course, I showed up having to look for new
    friends.  And it took a good number of years before I felt really
    "connected".  Looking back, this was all natural, but you will have
    to work at getting out to meet people.
    
    Please don't make the mistake of thinking that your friends must like
    your husband.  You'll limit yourself right away with thinking like
    that.  The fact of the matter is for me that when I spend time with
    a girlfriend, 90% of that time is *not* with husband in tow.  Why does
    it have to be that way?  It doesn't.
    

    PJ
    
    Encourage your sister to get to know the young woman and help her
    even if her son won't. This is her grandchild. I'll never regret
    helping my son out in the same situation (tho he had no intention
    of abandoning his daughter and her mother). The warm relationship
    I have with Holly and my granddaughter Canaan is something I'd
    not have missed for the world.
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie, real quick, not much time. She has gotten to know her and will
    stay in touch. She is a very nice personable woman, with a solid
    attitude about this. She plans to have and keep this child and to stay
    in touch with the family. The father will be in Turkey at the birth
    time and really doesn't plan to do anything about it afterwards. She
    could get money from him, but doesn't plan to pursue it, unless things
    get really desperate for her. I like her, but no longer have a real
    good oppinion about my nephew. I realize he's young and scared and
    can't think straight. Maybe he'll get better after the child is born. I
    can only pray that he does and love both him and my grandnephew.
    
    Thank you for your concern Bonnie.
    
    PJ

Rachel,

I know how you feel...my husband does not need friends and there fore, I am his
only one. I feel if I am going to meet someone, that person should like to
hang around with both of us or should have an SO that will entertain mike...
it's somewhat suffocating, and, might I add impossible. 

I also agree with what you said about notes relationships. People are so 
suportive in here... I have met a few people thru notes conferences and e-mail
is always great, but the face-to-face relationship that I need just never 
happens. 

I dunno...my question still stands at, how does one cultivate or even start
a friendship?  

dee

    One simple way is to do it like dating. When you meet someone at a
    party or in the halls at work or anywhere and you feel that "we could
    be friends" click, get their number. Make a list of things you've been
    meaning to do anyway, and invite them to join you. Movies, a new
    restaurant, a play, a hiking trip, a museum, a concert, dinner and
    videos at your place, whatever. Find a day that seems good for you
    both, and DO IT. If it works, its fun, you're compatible, etc., DO IT
    AGAIN.  And emphasize that you like the person's company and hope to
    build a friendship.
    
    That's my approach.

>my husband does not need friends

This statements is like "I don't like hugs" or "I don't like chocolate".

Totally incomprehensible to me!!!

D!

    Me too D!   But, my husband is another.  He had friends in high school
    and college, but I'd call them aquaintances.  He never kept in touch
    and some of them live close by still.  He's friendly with people he
    works with, but none of them would I call more than associates.  He
    really does not seem to need to have friends.  He likes many of my
    friends and we go out with them and he has a good time, but there is
    no one we go out with that was his friend first.  I've never understood
    it, and I probably never will.  Maybe it has something to do with his
    being in a big family, there is always someone who is family around, so
    maybe he's never felt the need for more?  I really can't explain it.
    I certainly can't live that way!
    
    -HA

    no, doesn't have much to do with being in a big family, I don't think.
    
    it has rather more to do with being an American male (in my opinion)
    
    The same personality profile that allows for collaboration allows for
    intimacy.
    
    the same personality profile that fosters competition mitigates against
    intimacy.

    Herb, exactly. I don't have very many friends outside of work and most
    of them are work aquaintances. I don't feel at all deprived. I have
    maybe 4 people I would say I was really tight with. They are all women
    and I know them all because I work at DEC. One lives in Colorado
    Springs, Two live in Harrisburg PA. and one lives in Nashua, NH. I have
    a lot of aquaintances and I'm willing to tell anything to anybody, but
    real close friends. Only a few and only recently. 
    
    My closest friends sort of drifted away after my marriage and we only
    saw her friends. For the longest time, we were to busy trying to
    survive and feed and clothe our children, (literally) to become close
    to anyone. After the divorce, I didn't renew friendships with anyone
    and rarely see anyone from the old days. Didn't have the desire to do
    so. Now I have the greatest circle of aquaintances, because of NOTES
    and enjoy the rare instances of in person contact with the NOTERS. I
    can think of no better medium to get people to open up and get them to
    actually become real true friends with someone. It's truly a miracle,
    even if it is a miracle of science, basically. It has helped me beyond
    belief. 
    
    PJ

    I can't say I like many of my husband's close friends, or
    should I say their wives.  I have always gotten along better
    with men than women, but to be standing among a group of
    college degreed women, who are discussing such titilating 
    subjects like the merits of beer, or college memories - which
    I have none of as I didn't attend college - I'd rather be home
    cleaning the horse stalls or something! :-)  I don't enjoy sitting
    at a party at one of his friends houses, watching 20-30 people
    guzzle beer, feeling uncomfortable and like a fifth wheel....
    He doesn't like many of my friends, either.  But we both tolerate
    this kind of stuff as it means so much to the one whose friends it
    may be.                                                
    
    HRH

    I have been blessed with about a dozen good friends upon whom I could
    call at any moment for anything. They are all ages and both sexes al-
    though I have more women friends now than in my single days.
    
    I love people. They are my favorite hobby. Some people dream of exotic
    vacations and having a dream house. I dream about people. People are 
    kind of like snowflakes. No two are alike.
    
    I have worked for Digital for a millenium. I don't really know how long
    that is but I know it's a long time and I have been here forever. I
    have collected at least one friend from each of the department that I
    have worked in. I collect people. 
    
    When I was in high school my self-esteem was so low that I needed
    friends as a sort of self-validation. Ironic as it was, once I got a
    friend I would think to myself, "This person must not be so cool to
    have me as a friend". Strange. Has anyone else felt this way?
    
    Now that I've been alive for 2 milleniums I've learned the best way to
    have a friend is to be one. I had to learn how to be true to myself 
    because I'm the greatest me in the world and I don't "do" anyone else
    very well. Through my self honesty came self-confidence. With that
    self-confidence, my friendships don't get cluttered with jealousy and
    phonyness and status. People like me better when I like myself. It's
    funny how people with negative self-images put off aura's of doom and
    gloom. No one wants to be put on a bummer. When I was done with my
    identity crisis I found that I had alot to share.  The same people with
    whom I ask advice, ask for advice and I can say, ,"Ya. I've been
    through that and I worked it out successfully".
     
    I entertain alot. I have about 4 parties a year and I invite slews of
    people. Not everyone attends. Thank heaven! My roof would pop off.
    
    I hope no one got the impression that everyone likes me. Not everyone.
    I have been written up in many reviews as being blunt. I think if
    something smells like pizza and tastes like pizza...well...it's prob-
    ably pizza. Some people like my direct approach some don't. You know
    how some people evoke responses...like Madonna, for example or President
    Bush. It's kind of like that. People usually either like me or dislike
    me. That's ok. To thine own self be true. 
    
    Kate
                                                         

    Great topic E!
    
    I can relate about "being one of the guys". I was always a tomboy when
    I was younger...playing outside all the time, building forts, shooting
    at the make-believe enemy, playing sports, rolling in the mud, riding
    my bike all over the place, etc. I always had lots of friends, most of
    them male, just because I had more in common with them. As I hit
    puberty things started to change. The boys I hung around with became
    interested in girls and the other girls interested in boys. Well, I
    didn't fit in. I wasn't interested in boys and I wasn't interested in
    hanging around with girls who just wanted to talk about boys all the
    time. So I went through this misfit period where I didn't have a lot of
    friends. 
    
    In high school I had a circle of friends who were kind of like the
    misfits. None of us fitted into any of the "clicks".  After high school
    I went through another period of not having too many friend. In college
    I didn't really fit in either. I wasn't too interested in dating men
    like the other women. Of course, I didn't realize at that time that I
    was a homosexual so that was a big part of my problem. If I had known
    that and had connected with other people like me I probably would have
    found my crowd so to speak, people like me.
    
    After college I made good friends with a few people I worked with and
    my roomates. It took a few years for this to happen. It usually takes
    me a while to make friends with people becaues I'm basically a shy
    person.
    
    Coming out as a lesbian totally changed all of this. I have many
    friends now, mostly women. I spend a lot of time in women space so that
    is why I have more women friends. I've shared very intimate,personal
    and deep things with many of these friends. I'm a lot more open now
    about my feelings and life and I believe this has helped me to make
    friends with people.
    
    Last weekend I went on a camping trip to Martha's Vineyard with 8 other
    women, several of them friends. I remember laying in my tent thinking
    how great it was to be sharing this camping experience with all these
    women. We talked about a lot of things, some very personal and laughed
    a lot and sang outside a restaurant to a bunch of people waiting for
    tables. It was such a warm experience I really don't know how to
    describe it. I felt very warm and peaceful from the whole thing even
    though I got pretty darn wet from all the rain we got :-) I knew that
    if I had had a real problem I needed to talk about I could have shared
    it with this group and gotten many hugs and support. It was a wonderful
    feeling.
    
    I have a couple of really good male friends but in the past year have
    spent less time with them. This is just because a lot of my energy has
    been going into coming out and talking/sharing this with other gaybi
    women. Friendships like other relationship take work and energy and
    there are only so many hours in a day.
    
    Laurie