Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I've been in almost exactly the situation you describe, on Kathy's
    side.
    
    Frankly, I can't blame Kathy.  When my boyfriend D. slept with B. I was
    terribly upset.  I eventually forgave D, but I never really forgave B. 
    Part of it was that since I was going out with D, I had a vested
    interest in continuing the relationship with him.  And I loved him and
    didn't love her.  Also, she tried to pass the blame off to him, which
    pissed me off.  I became friends with B again, sort of, but it was
    never the same and to this day I wouldn't trust her farther than I
    could throw her.
    
    So you have to do two things: get her to *want* to forgive you, and
    build up her trust in you.
    
    Towards the latter end - don't try and pass the buck.  Own what you
    did.  Apologize for it, say it was stupid (if you think it was), say
    you won't do it again, but don't say it was the alcohol, or Robbie, or
    anything else.  You made your decision, you have to be responsible for
    it.  Also, don't say bad things about Robbie - that will just be
    interpretted as you trying to prove you won't do it again.  in fact, if
    I were you I would totally avoid talking about Robbie *at* *all*. 
    Nothing good, nothing bad.  Listen to her talking about him, if that is
    what happens, but only add supportive comments to her, don't say
    anything about him.
    
    Once she has an interest in forgiving you (she may never! she may be
    more hurt by what you did than by losing your friendship! you have to
    be aware of that possibility) you have to do *everything* right.  Not a
    single slip in trust...keep every promise, every date, every vow. 
    Don't look sideways, or even express an opinion (positive or negative)
    on any of her boyfriends for quite awhile.  She's been hurt and she
    will be very wary and looking for excuses not to trust you.
    
    For now i would say give her some time.  3 weeks is not very long to
    come to terms with a betrayal of friendship.  It was almost 6 months
    before I would even speak to B again.  Let her alone.  Tell her you
    want to be her friend, but you won't bug her, but to let you know if
    she wants to talk.  Wait a few months...if she hasn't said anything,
    send her another card, or call her.  Don't push it.  Don't ask if
    you've been forgiven, just ask her if she wants to get together or
    something.
    
    And if you are crying and not eatting over this situation, then it
    sounds like you are unhealthily wrapped up in - maybe you should go to
    EAP.
    
    D!

    D,
    
    Thanks very much for your advice.  I know this is going to take some
    time but I am not going to give up.  A few of my friends have also said
    the same thing about not saying anything bad about R.  Just admit what
    you did and tell her that you still want to be friends.  
    
    From what Kathy told Theresa Robbie has said some pretty bad things
    about me that aren't true.  Probably putting the blame on me.  What do
    you think about that and how can I convince her to believe me.
    
    Thanks!
    

    
    Perhaps with, "I know that you don't want to hear my side; I can accept
    that. But I do want you to know that I hope we can become friends
    again."
    
    Someday, she may want to know your side... then again, she may never
    want to know. 
                              
    

    >From what Kathy told Theresa Robbie has said some pretty bad things
    >    about me that aren't true.  Probably putting the blame on me. 
    
    There's not much you can do about that.  You just have to hope that
    Robbie, by not following my advice of not talking about you, is making
    enough of a fool of himself that Kathy doesn't believe him.  Kathy will
    believe what she wants to believe, regardless of what is said, really. 
    If she has more of a vested interest in believing that Robbie is the
    Good Guy, she will. I imagine he will get himself in lots of hot water
    by continuing to blame you (my boyfriend did) and you won't have to
    worry about that.
    
    Oh, also, stay as far away from Robbie as geographically possible.
    
    D!

    >Perhaps with, "I know that you don't want to hear my side; I can accept
    >    that. But I do want you to know that I hope we can become friends
    >    again."
    
    Uh, no, I wouldn't do that.
    
    Phrasing it that way sounds like you are accusing her of being unfair,
    sinec we are all raised to believe that "hearing both sides" is what
    reasonable and rational people do.  Whether you intend it that way or
    not, saying "you don't want to hear my side" sounds like you are
    blaming *her* for something, and in this situation, she probably feels
    (justifiably so) that *she* is the one who has been wronged, and will
    resent any sort of blame or load being placed on her shoulders.
    
    D!

    This reply is being posted for a member of our community who wishes to
    remain anonymous at this time.
    
    D!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    That happened to me.  I was cheated on.  In fact, I felt even more
    betrayed because she slept with my guy after I had right out
    asked her not to.  I guess I blamed her a lot and it was real hard to
    patch up the friendship.  She called me up recently to see how I was
    doing and we hung out for an afternoon but I still can't forget.  I
    can't ever forget.  She's dangerous.  She can't be trusted.  I didn't
    spread rumors or anything, I just couldn't stand being her friend
    anymore.  I found out several months after they did it, he just up and
    told me he had slept with her (and another girl, too).  It was even
    harder patching up things with him in my heart than it was with her.  
    But I kind of blamed her more because I didn't want to believe he'd do 
    that to me of his own freewill.
    
    I'd say she may not want to be your friend, but I'd talk to both him 
    and her about their behavior.  I know they may be upset but thats kind 
    of childish of them.
    

    D,
    
    How long did it take you to talk to B for the first time.  Why will she
    talk to Robbie and not me??  Since he hurt her to begin with by
    breaking up with her was it wrong of me to end it with RObbie and not
    tell her.  
    
    Thanks for your advice,
    

    I talked to B and D (my goodness, I just noticed the initials! :-) both
    right after I found out about the "event" (a couple of weeks later).  I
    listened to both sides of their story.  I spent a long weekend in
    heavy relationship-building and soul-searing with D.  I basically
    didn't see or speak to B again for two months.  She kept writing me,
    asking me to forgive her, telling me it wasn't her fault, etc. 
    Eventually I told her to take a hike.  Then a month or so later I wrote
    to her, just a "hi" and we slowly, slowly, slowly started being friends
    again.
    
    The reason I would talk to D and not B was because it was more
    important for me to trust D (the boyfriend) again.  But ven though
    Kathy isn't seeing Robbie anymore, it is probably still more important
    to her to know why he did it, to believe it wasn't his fault.  After
    all, it is pretty traumatic to think that someone you loved didn't love
    you back.  That is probably more painful than to find out a friend
    wasn't as much of a friend as you thought.
    
    It certainly wasn't wrong of you to break off with Robbie!  I assume
    she knows that you aren't seeing/sleeping with him anymore.  If she
    doesn't know that, yeah, you should tell her.
    
    I imagine she has a lot vested in believing Robbie, since she loved him
    (presumably) and can't believe he would do such a thing.  Eventually
    she will realize what he's doing and then you will be in better shape.

    The one thing I keep hearing here is how much he is attacking YOU!  You
    obviously know what you did and you have apologized for it.  His
    attacks on you are a way for him to release HIS guilty feelings,
    without owning his responsibility in this.  He is not going to accept that
    he had a part in this also.  What I am trying to tell you is don't 
    personalize his attacks, as hard as it may be.  I hear how much you hurt 
    over this.  I'm having a hard time expressing what I want to say to
    you.  Sadly, it is easier for your girlfriend to blame you, rather than
    the man she is involved with.  I know for me that when this has
    happened to me it has always been extremely hard for me to forgive the
    woman, but real easy to forgive the man.  I'm real stuck with what I am
    trying to say, so I'll end it for now.
    
    Karen

    Karen,
    
    Your note was really helpful I only wish you would keep going with it.  
    Thanks D and the anonymous noter.  I think you all said the same thing. 
    It was easier for you to want to forgive the man than the friend.  
    
    Right now she is not forgiving anybody although she goes for rides with
    him when he comes over.  She tells my best friend that everytime she
    sees me it gets worse.  The reason why I have to see her is because we
    teach a winter color guard together and in the summer we have practive
    2 times a week.  Then sometimes after we have meetings, etc.  She at
    first when this happened wasn't going to teach anymore but has changed
    her mind.  My friend asked her how she is going to handle not talking
    to me when we start having comeptitions, events, etc.  She said 'I can
    handle it".  She also told my friend that she just wanted to tell me
    off and never speak to me again.  She doesn't consider me to be in the
    same class as her friends and calls me a slut. 
    
    My friend Theresa however said that the first week Kathy didn't eat
    anything and lost 12 pounds.  Now she is eating and has gained back 4. 
    So as the weeks go on she thinks she will feel better about it.  It's
    just that right now I don't feel like she wants to forgive me and I
    don't know how to convince her she should since I'm feeling so ashamed
    of myself.  How can you make other people feel good about you when you
    don't
    
    Thanks in advance for your advice,
    

    Nancy,
    I belong to a 12-step program and step nine states "Made direct amends
    to such people, wherever possible, except when to do so would injure
    them or others".  When you made amends to your friend you were doing it
    as much for you as for her.  When I make amends, I have no control over
    how the other person takes it, what I am doing is acknowledging that I
    have been in the wrong and I want to make it right anyway that I can. 
    What the other person does with it is none of my business.  When I know
    that I have betrayed someone (and I have hurt some people very deeply),
    it is harder forgiving myself than it is for them to forgive me.
    
    I also want to say that when I have been involved with a man and he
    sleeps with someone else, my ego is terribly bruised.  For me, it sets
    up all the feelings of worthlessness, being used, that I am nothing
    more than sex to this man, that I am a slut, that I am not a person.  
    This is especially true if I think I have deep feelings for the man.  
    I suspect that your friend has all of the same feeling going on in her. 
    She may also be wondering if this is the first time he has been
    unfaithful to her and that is another knife in the heart for her. 
    Again, I suspect that she has got so many feelings going on internally
    that she can't sort them out and is making you a scapegoat.  I know
    that I use anger to hide from painful feelings and it sounds like she
    is doing the same thing.
    
    Nancy, you have made your amends.  I know you want forgiveness from
    her, I would too.  Unfortunately, human condition is one that will not
    forgive until all of the feelings have been sorted out.  My own
    personal opinion is that she needs to see what a cad this guy is and
    once she sees that, move out of his life and then she will begin to
    tackle her relationship with you.  As hard as this is to do, my final
    advice is to "Let Go and Let God" as we say in the program.  Pray for
    her.  Pray that God (or your Higher Power, however you define him/her)
    will give her the guidance she needs to work through this and pray for 
    patience for you.  If you can trust that good things will come out of
    this, then I guarantee that it will.  
    
    Karen

    Oh, one more thing, you are absolutely not a slut.  Don't buy into her
    anger.
    
    Karen

    Karen,
    
    Thanks for the encouragement.  I know she is very angry and maybe when
    she stops being so angry she will begin to see that I am not the things
    she thinks I am right now.  What you were saying about me making
    amends, I'm not sure I have yet.  I sent her a card saying everything I
    feel about our friendship but I'm pretty sure she just discarded it. 
    Do you think by her telling me off she will begin to accept it and get
    rid of her anger.  By keeping it all inside and not talking to me isn't
    that a bad thing for her.  You can't keep all that anger inside of you
    for too long.
    
    Also, we hang around with mostly the same group of friends.  One of
    them is getting married in August and moving to Indiana.  All of us
    were being invited to the wedding.  kathy is a bridesmaid as she is
    closer to this girl than I am.  Kathy told this girl the whole story
    and one of my other friends.  One did not judge me and still calls me. 
    Jan (the one getting married) is really angry with me and told her that
    If she was Kathy she would never speak to me again.
    
    Kathy also told a girl she went to school with who didn't know either
    myself or Robbie and the girl told her to plan on never being friends
    with her again (meaning me).  
    
    Well anyway my friend Theresa , Kathy and Jan were out one night
    recently and Theresa asked her if she was still inviting me to the
    wedding.  JAn looked at Kathy and said I don't know.  Theresa told her
    it was stupid of her as it was between Kathy and myself, and that she
    wouldn't go to the wedding if I wasn't invited.  Jan said she would
    most likely invite me.
    
    How can I get through to her when all of these other people are telling
    her that she will never be friends with me again.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    
    I don't know how to act in front of this group of friends.  I've even
    thought about not attending Jan's wedding since I know she doesn't want
    me there.  

    For what it is worth.
    
    I blamed the female.  I did not really believe that the guy was capable
    of much higher moral or emotional activity.  But the woman... I thought
    there was more to her... and that she knew how much he meant to me. She
    also hurt more because I had thought before that time that she was
    worth more.
    
    She is still looking for someone to care for her.  I can
    imagine that she thought it would just be easier to have the one
    that appeared to care for me... I mean, he was her race, her size,
    and even lived in her building... But I don't think it was the answer.
    She did not love him. 
    
    Just as with you, it just happened they said.  I do not think you
    should "buy into her hatred".  However, your being sorry is not going
    to get her over it, if anything does.  And it will probably take
    a WHOLE LOT LONGER than three weeks for you to make it back.  
    
    Consider it this way. Start with the amount of time that you did not
    tell her.  Multiply it by the fact that you were not open enough
    to have let her hear it from you (the saving grace of my acquaintance).
    and add on the fact that the one person who may have told her, reaps
    some trust and benefit from finally being the one to let her know, and
    the disparity between your treatment and time for possible
    reconciliation gets much clearer.
    
    
    On the brighter side, for your perspective... She finally attended my
    wedding 4+ years later to his replacement.  Although I do not trust
    her as far as I can lift her off the ground with my pinky, I have
    spoken with her from time to time...
                              
    And he is a distant memory.
    ...who's stuffed dog I put up for adoption.
    
    Cindi
     

    Nancy,
    I went back and read over your base note.  I am going to ask a real
    pointed question....would this have happened if you had not been
    drinking?  You might want to take a real close look at that.
    
    She is getting rid of her anger, by attempting to sabatoge you with
    your mutual friends.  She may not have any other tools to handle this 
    right now.  And the more I toss this around, I can't help but be
    reminded of what I did in high school.
    
    When I was in high school, there was this gal, Sandra, who liked Kevin
    and let everyone know about it.  Well, one night Kevin and I ended up
    in his car.  Nothing happened except kissing, but boy, by the reaction
    you would have thought we ran off and got married.  The ENTIRE school
    ostracized me and I am not being over dramatic here.  Absolutely no one
    would talk to me.  This was one of the most unpleasant experiences in
    my life.  Combined with all of the ugly stuff that was going on at
    home, I felt completely deserted and I was.  I would get to school and
    find b*tch written on my locker, books would come sailing through the
    air, aimed for me, some of the other girls would walk up and slap me in
    the face.  Months after this happened some girl came up to ready to
    fight and defend Sandra's honor.  This happened 18 years ago and some
    of these people still won't talk to me.  I apologized to Sandra and
    surprisely she stood by me, after her anger wore off.  I am telling you
    this is because the issue was between Sandra, Kevin and I.  It was
    nobody else's business.
    
    What you said in the base note about sending the card and letting her
    know what you feel about the friendship and that you feel bad that this
    has happened, to me that is an amends.  The reality is that both you
    and Robbie are to blame, if blame is the right word.  I also have the
    nagging question, why didn't Kathy take you home that night if you
    couldn't drive?  I keep going back to how big a factor alcohol is in
    this picture.
    
    If you don't feel comfortable going to places where your mutual friends
    are, then don't go.  But ask yourself the question, what is it *I*
    want?  Am I going to allow this person to rule my life or am I going to
    recapture my dignity?  Somewhere in all of this you need to take the
    focus OFF what she is doing and focus in on yourself and what your
    needs are.  If you are scared to go, talk to Theresa about it and ask
    for her support.  She sounds like she is standing behind you on this
    one.  This is not a comfortable or easy situation to be in.  I fully
    understand your shame in this.  If you need to tell Kathy that you are
    sorry, using those words, then do it.  But then let it go.  You can't
    force her to be friends with you.  Trust has been violated and only
    time and action can rebuild that trust.
    
    I am tough-loving you here.  You cannot change Kathy's behavior,
    feelings or what she talks about.  You can only change your behavior,
    feelings and what you talk about.  One other suggestion, then I'll
    go...find one or two people to vent your feelings about this with, but
    don't go talking to the entire group of friends.  If someone comes up
    to you and wants to talk about it and this person is not one of the people
    you have chosen to confide in, then state that you would prefer not
    talking about it, that the issue is between you and Kathy.  If they
    persist, set the limit again.  If they continue to want to talk about,
    reaffirm the limit and then walk away.  This will show them that you
    have self-worth, dignity and integrity.  It also may help to cool
    Kathy's anger toward you.  What I mean is that if you are not out there
    saying "She did this or she did that", this behavior will be noticed
    and Kathy may take a second look at her own behavior.  From reading
    your side of the story, she is doing everything she can to alienate you
    from this group of friends.
    
    Karen

    Hi Karen,
    
    I have printed off all of these reposnes to my problem and whenever I
    start to think about it and feel down, I take them out and read them. 
    Some of them make me feel better.
    
    Regarding the alcohol, I firmly belive that if we hadn't been drinking
    this wouldn't have happened.  The reason Kathy left me there was she
    had to have her parents car home at 1:00 and I had my own car so I
    couldn't leave it there.  And when she left I was on the couch almost
    passed out.
    
    I know that I have to go to this wedding and take whatever is given to
    me.  Some of my friends going no nothing about this.  I feel bad for my
    friend Theresa because she is in the middle of it.  And all that Kathy
    talks about when they are together is "the situation".  She is getting
    so tired of listening to it all the time.
    
    I guess another question wouold be, How do I act when I see her,
    depressed?, happy and talk to my other friends.  She is getting the
    best of me now because when we are in a group she speaks out in front
    of everyone but I don't say a word.  Should I let her see that I am
    upset about this.  If I'm acting happy will that just make her more
    mad, thinking I don't give a care?
    
   Thanks for all of your responses,
    
    Nancy

    Act "normal".  Don't act sorry, because you will draw attention to the
    problem, don't act angry to try to make her feel guilty, don't be
    obsequious, just act friendly, happy for the bride, etc...
    
    D!

It might be a little late for this, but I would call up mutual friends and
tell them that you've done something dumb that you regret, and that you hurt
Kathy badly and feel terrible about that, and ask them to "please be there 
for her".  No more details.  Hopefully, this will keep some of them from 
feeling caught in the middle or from taking sides, and will shield you from 
being hurt by mutual friends displaying loyalty towards Kathy.  If you're
lucky, what you've said will also get back to Kathy eventually and lead her
to see you in a somewhat different light.

Whatever you do, don't do anything to hurt Kathy more if you want to regain
her friendship.  It might help defuse the situation somewhat if you didn't 
spend much time around her; I would cultivate other friends she doesn't know,
and see friends in this group on a primarily individual basis for a while.

    Sharon

    Nancy,
    I agree with D!  Just act yourself, be yourself.
    I also agree with Sharon.
    
    Karen

    Hi Everyone,
    
    I just wanted to let you all know that Kathy called me last night.  I
    had seen her at practice and we were sitting in a circle talking.  She
    had a radio and a song came on that we sang in the car when we were
    driving to Clearwater Beach last year.  I looked at her and smiled and
    I thought she was smiling also.  She had sunglassess on so I couldn't
    tell if she was looking at me or not.
    
    So anyway, when I found out it was her on the phone I went to my room
    and took it in there.  I wasn't prepared for her calling me as its been
    2 weeks since she got the card.  She had told my friend that she just
    wanted to tell me off and never speak to me again.  So when I got the
    call I really thought Oh no this is it.
    
    I would say that the beginning and end of our conversation were
    positive.  The middle was just her asking a lot of questions, telling
    me how she looks at me differently now than she did, and if I thought
    we could ever go back to the way we were.  I said we both have to want
    to do it and that I knew no matter she said to me I could take it and
    that I would never give up on our friendship.  I also told her it would
    be like starting over, or like a new baby starting to walk.
    
    She asked me how she could ever trust me again with any of her new
    boyfriends.  She doesn;t want to feel like she can't have me meet them. 
    She was mostly upset because I was the person she told all her feeling
    about Robbie too, and when he broke up with her I was the first person
    she told.
    
    I know that she knows how upset I've been because I started crying on
    two occasions, at the beginning and end of the converstaion.  She cried
    a little but mostly her voice was really calm.  She didn't yell at me
    once.  I know she's confused because she would say, Right now I don't
    see how I can forgive you and then she would say, I can't say never, I
    just need time.
    
    The way it ended was I asked her how my girlfriend Jenn's baby was, (I
    was balling at this point) and we talked a little about that.  I
    hysterically was crying until we hung up.  She said we would talk
    again about this.
    
    What do you all think???
    Nancy

    I can sympathize comletely with your pain since I am going through
    something of similar nature (but of different consequences). The loss
    of your friend is devastating and you are constantly being reminded of
    this by having mutual friends and seeing her twice a week.  You not
    only feel guilty about what you did, but you are probably starting to
    question every decision you make and your confidence and self-esteem
    are starting to take a beating.
    
    I have found every time a scab starts to form across my wound *I* am
    the one who yanks it off! not someone else. *I* am the one who puts
    myself in the position of making myself miserable by setting myself up
    in siutations where I will face disappointment (seeing the person I am
    trying to avoid).
    
    I'm not suggesting you become a hermit, but perhaps for a 2 week period
    you could avoid being around people or circumstances that will help you
    step back and get over this. The stronger you are mentally (and
    physically) the better you will be able to *cope* with all this. In a
    weakened state you are going to make yourself even more sick and may
    not be making rationale decisions in other areas.  You cannot force
    Kathy to be friends and by constantly dwelling on the past you are not
    moving forward.  For your own piece of mind you need to put this aside
    and move forward, only then the pain will subside and the wound will
    start to heal (accepting her decision).  The fact she didn't cry that
    much during your phone conversation means she is in good shape
    emotionally (or else she is stronger than you think). Cry as much as
    you have to, get it out of your system, and take VITAMIN B!! I have
    found this controls my weepies exceptionally well.  Good luck! hang in
    there, you aren't alone.

    C_Miller,
    
    Thanks so much for your note.  After her phone call I actually slept
    one WHOLE night!  I know it is going to me a long road but I am willing
    to stick in there and eventually I think she will forgive me.  Most
    people I talk to think that by her calling it was her first step in
    figuring this out.  She actually made me feel like I meant for to her
    than Robbie did.  I was really shocked by that.
    
    Thanks for the kind words.  Hang in there in your situation too!
    
    Nancy

Something interesting I've noticed in this topic and others - friends seem to be
held to higher standards than lovers. We seem to forgive a lover's betrayal
before we forgive a friend's betrayal. 

That deadly combination of best friends and lovers has appeared in literature
for centuries. It seems to be a fatal attraction that humans are prone to. It's
not inevitable but it's certainly common. I suppose that doesn't make anyone
feel better though. liesl

    Ever since I was a kid it was *always* acceptable to drop your best
    girlfriend for a guy.  Nancy, you sound fairly young (early twenties),
    and believe me, this is just the START of other trying situations you
    will be faced to cope with.  Each time you go through something like
    this you learn two things: hope to cope and deal with it, and you learn
    about yourself (plus you are forced to grow up a little).
    
    Participating in this notes file is a step in the right direction. I
    have started from note 1 to 880 many times (and the HUMAN_RELATIONS
    file is excellent too).  Getting this out of your system and reading
    about other people who are going through something similar or worse
    forces you to put things in perspective. I cannot stress enough how
    important it is for you to keep moving forward and stop dwelling on the
    past!!!! Try your hardest NOT to replay in your mind conversations or
    situations.  Try NOT to interpret other people's actions or to over
    analyze everything.
    
    As my mom says to me at the end of every crisis, "this too shall pass
    and you will be a stronger person as a result of it."  It hurts like
    hell now, but you too will get past this so that the next time it
    happens you'll be better prepared.  I have found by not being around
    the people who cause me the most pain now to be the best therapy. I
    feel stronger every day, so that when I am forced to see them it won't
    hurt as much.
    
    Take care,