Conference turris::womannotes-v3

I think there is a potential rapist in every human being.  Rape is a
crime of power, not a sex crime, and as such is also subject to being
a crime of passion.  Nobody is so completely in control that s/he can
prevent emotional outbursts under any and all circumstances.  An emotion
can trigger virtually anything if the circumstances conspire with the 
pressure, sublimation, and rechanneling that a person has been doing to
suppress hir powerful feelings.  It isn't the beer-bellied pig of a man
or the fat bitch of a woman who is most prone to violence of this kind;
rather, it is the unsuspected quiet type who almost, but not quite,
always does a masterful job of controlling hirself.  At that critical
instant when it becomes just too much to bear that "she" or "he" or
"they" are doing or saying whatever, the result can be an eruption that
vents itself in the form of a need to exert *power* to regain one's own
feeling of strength or value - whatever the particular individual feels
in danger of losing. And the manifestation, while not necessarily
"violent," can be a rape.

-d

    
    One thing I didn't say in that other discussion, is that though I think
    all rapists are sick and abnormal, I didn't mean to imply that they are
    not all too common and hard to discern.  I also fully realize that even
    if only a small minority of men are rapists, that doesn't mean that women 
    shouldn't be careful.  If 5% of men are would-be rapists, then for almost 
    every woman the odds are very good that she'll run into one of these in 
    her life.
    
    (The above argument is the same also if we aren't assuming anything about 
    the sexes of the abuser or victim.  e.g. male raping another male.)
    
    Daniel,  The word victim seems more appropriate here, because many victims
    of rape don't "survive" either physically or emotionally.  
    
    					- Vick

    re: .1
    
    Speaking on behalf of myself and other quiet types, I object to the
    suggestion that one should be careful of quiet types because they might
    be more likely to become sudden rapists.
    
    						- Vick

    One should be careful of *all* types, even "men of the cloth", until one 
    knows them well enough to drop one's guard.  
    
    I don't like the phrase "become sudden rapists".  That idea places the 
    burden on the potential victim for "inciting" it in some way.  A man 
    does not "suddenly" become a rapist, except perhaps in his own mind as
    he seeks to exonerate himself after the fact.  He either is, is not, or 
    is on the fence, undecided.  In any case, he totally owns the responsi-
    bility for which one he is, regardless of the person or situation placed 
    before him.  What to do in any given instance is his own decision based
    on his own attitudes.
    
    Sandy

    Vick, I understand the impulse, so let me clarify.
    
    Like I said in 503.3, when it is happening to you, you are a victim. 
    But when it is over, when you are still there, alive even in a state of
    emotional turmoil, you are a SURVIVOR.  You haven't let it destroy you
    and you have survived.
    
    This is a term of empowerment and necessary, in my opinion, for
    survivors in our recoveries.  Even during those times when I am in the
    middle of my worst panic attacks, when I don't even know where I am, I
    am a SURVIVOR.  What I ask is that people respect that and not label me
    a "victim"
    
    daniel

    But rapists also produce non-survivors.  And if the discussion is going
    to be about the rapists, why distinguish between the kinds of victims?
    The survivor attitude is empowering and anything that helps should be
    used.  But we're not discussing the victims.  I'm really sensitive to
    this string easily turning that way, because in every other version of
    the file, whenever we've attempted to discuss the rapists, we've ended
    up discussing the victims.  Your ground rules are great and I hope they
    work but if we get caught up in semantics about victims versus survivors 
    versus non-survivors, we're not talking about rapists.
    
    S.

    And on anohter thought...
    
    Are 5% of the males raping nearly 30% of the women?  I really think
    there are more of "them" out there than anybody usually realizes
    
    
    -d.

    see also:
    
    Womannotes-V2
    958 - offshoot of topic 525 - the rapists
    
    -Jody
    

Please Call Me By My True Names
      Thich Nhat Hanh

Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow 
because even today I still arrive.

Look deeply; I arrive in every second
to be a bud on the spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile
   learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone,

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
in order to fear and to hope,
the rhythm of my heart is the birth and death
of all that is alive.

I am the mayfly metamorphosing on
   the surface of the river,
and I am the bird which, when spring comes,
   arrives in time to eat the mayfly.

I am a frog swimming happily in the clear
   water of a pond,
and I am the grass-snake, who approaching 
  in silence, feeds itself on the frog.
I am a child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks,
and I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons
   to Uganda.

I am the twelve year old girl, refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean 
   after being raped by a sea pirate,
and I am the pirate, my heart not yet
  capable of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo with plenty 
   of power in my hands,
And I am the man who has to pay his debt of
   blood to my people dying slowly in a 
   forced labor camp.

My joy is like spring, so warm it makes
   flowers bloom in all walks of life.
My pain is like a river of tears, so full 
   it fills all four oceans.
Please call me by my true names,
So I can hear all my cries and laughs all at once,
So I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names
So I can wake up and so the door of my heart
  can be left open
The door of compassion.

    RE: .6
    
    Thanks for the reminder!  Perhaps any further discussion on semantics
    should be directed to either 778 or the rathole so we can keep this
    discussion focussed?
    
    -d.

    This is being posted for a member of our community who wishes to be
    anonymous at this time.
    
    D!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
I've been there.  I know how it feels.

No, I have not raped.  I didn't cross the line.  But I saw the line, I
walked up to it, I felt it.  Crossing it would have been just one more
step, one easy step.  Would it have taken a different person than me
to cross that line?  I don't think so.  I think it would have taken
only me, but feeling just a little angrier, or just a little less in
control (perhaps if I had been drinking), a little more hurt, a little
more violent.  Maybe if I had had a bad day.

I could have raped.  This stunned me, when I realized it.  I am, by
nature, a non-violent person.  I am understanding, enlightened, all the
good things people are supposed to be.  I am not subhuman, but it 
could have been me.

I now understand that rape is not a crime of sex but a crime of power.
You want to know what a rapist thinks?  This is what went through my
mind:

She had been "teasing" me for weeks.  Give a little, then pull back.
Give a little more, pull back a little more.  I wanted her and I think
she wanted me, but was nervous.  And she was playing the "coy" game,
saying no, expecting me to push her into it, so that she wouldn't be
responsible for what happened.  She couldn't make up her mind.  I "knew"
she wouldn't be unhappy when/if it happened, why wouldn't she just do
it?  What was her problem?  Then I found it out she had been with 
someone else, while she was seeing me.  Why had she done it then, and
not with me?  Why was she playing this game, when obviously she wanted
it?  Why did she keep pushing me away?  I loved her.  I wanted to show
her I loved her.  It isn't the sex that was important but the intimacy.
I wanted her to show she wanted me, I wanted to be the only one, I wanted
the closeness.  And so there we are, in the car; for the nth time, I am
dropping her off at home.  I want to come in, but she says she's tired.
She wants me to push her into letting me come in, but I can't play that
silly push-and-pull game, I don't know how.  She was with the other one
last night, that's why she's "tired".  I lean in to kiss her; she lets
me kiss her for a couple seconds then she pulls back.  I try again; 
she lets me kiss her a little longer, then pulls back again.  I am
screaming at her in my mind: just let it happen!  I love you!  I won't
hurt you!  Please!  I know you'd like it!  How could you do it with
others and not me!  You're supposed to be mine, don't you love me?
I grab her shoulders and pull her towards me.  She resists, pulls back,
tries to twist out of my grasp...

And I let her go.  I smile, say goodnight, wait for her to get out of
the car, and then I drive away.  The whole incident took maybe 45 seconds.
Or maybe it took a month, depending on where you count from.

I stepped up to the line, looked across it, thought about crossing and
decided not to.  I am a potential rapist.  And if *I* am, me who is 
totally nonviolent and nonagressive, then *everyone* is a potential
rapist.

And when I realized that, it terrified me, because I am a woman, I am
vulnerable.  I can never, even know who it will be until it happens.

    Wow.  I honestly don't know what to say except thank you for clarifying
    what I was trying to say.  That took a lot of courage.
    
    
    -------
    \  D  /
     \   /
      \ /

    Re:  become sudden rapists
    
    I used that phrase because it is appropriate to how .1 characterized
    how pent up whatever in a quiet person could suddenly explode into
    violence.  I haven't read anything about quiet people having this
    propensity, but if someone would point me to a study I would be
    glad to examine it.
    					- Vick

    I'm confused, Sandy.   First you say:
    
   >A man 
   >does not "suddenly" become a rapist, except perhaps in his own mind as
    
    Then you say that for proof that quiet people suddenly become rapists
    you only have to look in the newspaper.  Which is it?
    
    - Vick

    Vick, if I may presume some clarification (correct me, Sandy, if I'm
    off target!):
    
    I don't think Sandy is referring to "quiet people" in the sense of
    "people who don't chug a case of beer and then boot on passersby while
    singing 88 verses of 'The Church Bell Won't Ring Tonight Because the
    Vicor's Got the Clapper'"  I think she may be referring to the very
    quiet, reclusive types who don't interact socially and about whom
    people know nothing personally.
    
    In that sense, think of the number of times you open the paper or turn
    on the news and hear:
    
    "I don't understand...he seemed like such a quiet fella..."
    
    "Well, we're all shocked....Tim kept to himself mostly..."
    
    You find out that person who is "just shy" was molesting half the third
    graders at the local elementary school.  While these people comprise
    merely a fraction of the abusers, I believe Sandy was hoping to
    illustrate that the outwardly benign can easily be the secretly
    malevolant.
    
    The noter in .11 very frightening illustrated how the potential to
    become a perpetrator may indeed be within all of us.  As a survivor,
    that thought scares the hell out of me.  Could I actually, without
    realizing it at the time, do that to somebody?  Do we all have that
    potential?
    
    A friend of mine, sexually abused by her grandfather and physically
    abused by her father (who was also abuse by that same grandfather) once
    confronted her father with how he had treated her.  He was all too
    aware of it and that his being abused as a child was what had made him
    a perpetrator.  He asked her why couldn't she feel sorry for *him*?
    Her response was that someone probably should feel sorry for him but
    that it wasn't, it *couldn't*, be her.
    
    -----
    \ D /
     \ /

    You hit the nail right on the head, -daniel, thanx.  I even originally
    had similar text in my reply but deleted it and left only the title.
    The text was, "He was such a quiet man",  "He kept to himself mostly",
    "He always went to church and adored his children", etc.  The outwardly
    benign can be secretly malevolent - wish I had said that!
    
    Sandy

    re.0 ... if other survivors could come forward and talk about their
    abusers ...
    
    Well, I survived.  What do want to know about this man who raped me?
    
    I've said before that he and I had lived together for several months
    and that the rape occurred about a year after our relationship had
    metamorphosed to very loving friends, but no longer lovers.
    
    He was [is] 10 years older than I.  A gifted artist with a wit so dry
    you could blow dust off of it.  He was my mentor in the arts.  He was
    [is] a successful businessman.  He was/is extremely well-educated : BS
    Civil Engineering, Masters Architectural Design, Doctor of Fine Arts.
    He is 'of good family,' well-read, and widely travelled
    
    At the time that the rape occurred he had been newly married [to a
    woman I'd never met] -- about 7 months.
    
    He was handsome in a pleasant and un-god-like way with warm humourous
    eyes and a melodic and interesting voice. I trusted him body, heart,
    and soul.
    
    Is this what you wanted to know?
    
      Annie

Once again in a note I am going to recommend a book which I found very
enlightening.  The book is
	"For Your Own Good:
		Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing
		and the Roots of Violence"
by Alice Miller.

I just recommended it in Human Relations last night in response to a note
about child rearing practices.

Anyway, Alice Miller talks about the "poisonous pedagogy" which determines
how children are raised and how children who are not allowed to feel what they
feel, think what they think, etc. lose their own reality and act out in later
years feelings of frustration, etc.  I'm not doing justice to this book;  it's
worth a read, REALLY.  Once case study she describes involves a young man who
raped and horridly murdered little boys for several years.  She describes the
man's childhood and shows how the raping and murdering of the boys is related
to events and practices in his childhood.  Yes, this example is an extreme case
(she examines "How Hitler could have happened" which is an extreme case, as
well), but it does show "how and why these things can happen!"

-Mary Ann

    Annie,
    
    Thank you for sharing your story.. you have helped encourage
    me to tell mine... 
    
    This is *not* for the squeamish
    
    
    
    Not very many people know about this...
    
    this is harder than I thought it would be.  I survived, though
    it was doubtful I would... I was engaged to and lived with a
    man, he was kind, gentle, intelligent... I was pregnant.  Somehow
    he got the idea into his head that the child I was carrying was
    not his and went wild.  To this day, I can only guess at what
    caused such a dramatic change in him.  He began beating me and
    I became confused... my mother loved me and beat me, he loved me 
    and beat me... I had trouble putting together that it was the
    same person loving me that beat me... one day he became completely
    enraged, accused me of having sex with my best friend, I had not, and hit
    me over the head and pushed me down a flight a stairs.  The next
    thing I remember was waking up handcuffed to my bathroom sink,
    he was raping me... I was there for five days, he beat me, 
    he tortured me, he kicked me, he burned me, he mutilated me... 
    there were other men  there, I counted five... they raped me... 
    I lost the child... I don't remember very much except vivid 
    still snapshot-like images.  They left me for dead... 
    my next memory is that of my best friend, later to be my husband, 
    holding me and screaming and crying, I couldn't figure out why 
    he was covered in blood.   There is a month or two in the hospital 
    that I don't remember.  The doctors thought I would never walk again, 
    but I did.  There are alot of things I can't do... I rarely sleep 
    though a night. They never found him.  Once and a while he calls me 
    and threatens me, they have not been able to trace the calls so I move 
    and change my number.
    
    I *lived* with him, I made love with him, I slept with him,
    we laughed and talked and ... I *never* saw it coming.  To this
    day I have trouble putting the two images together.  For a long
    time, I blamed myself, I thought that I *should* have seen it coming
    I *should* have known, I *must* have done *something* to bring it
    on.
    
    For years I worked three jobs to save enough money to have the
    surgery to remove the scars.  You'd never know it happened
    by looking at me.  You'd never know he was capable of it by
    by looking at him.
    
    Thanks for listening.  I *really * wanna delete this...
    
    I have to go cry now.
    
    with love,
    cheyenne

    Hugs Cheyenne - I admire your courage.  Thank you for sharing that.
    
      -HA

    
    Cheyenne, I will always consider you a woman of tremendous courage.
    
    There are no good words to describe how I felt when I read what you
    wrote, so I can only thank you for sharing it, and hope that if you
    really feel uncomfortable about leaving it in the file, that you have
    it reposted anonymously for posterity. Sometimes its easy for me to
    close my eyes when violence never seems to touch people I know. My eyes
    are open now...

    Cheyenne, I'm sorry that you had to undergo that horrid, insane
    torture. It makes no sense whatsoever and never will. Such things
    should not exist. Unfortunately they do and even as we speak,
    somewhere, someone is being subjected to the same insanity, for no
    reason then to satisfy someones terrible ego or to prove to himself
    that he is a man. I admire and honor your courage that you could share
    this with us and even more so that it hasn't defeated you. You are a
    strength in this file and I thank you for that. It is people like you
    that give me hope that the violence can be stopped and such evil can be
    defeated.
    
    Thank you,
    
    PJ

    All the strength, hope and love I can muster, Cheyenne.  Your courage
    and strength is an example for *all* of us, survivors and friends
    alike.
    
    -daniel (who sometimes wonders if *any* of the people he cares about
    haven't been abused...)
    

 Wow- Cheyenne, that was really painful to read. I can't understand that some 
people are capable of committing such acts of hate against other people,
particularly people they claim to love. It's unfathomable. I admire your
courage; that must have been incredibly difficult to write.

 Mark

    
    
    I love you, cheyenne.
    
    E Grace

    
    Now *I'm* crying.
    
    tears and hugs and hopes and dreams
    
    -Jody
    

"Real men don't cry."  Like hell we don't.

Cheyenne, that's horrible.  Yours may be the most courageous note I've
ever seen in =wn=.  Electronic hugs seem so completely inadequate.

With love,
-d

    I'm sitting here awestruck at your sharing of that horrible story.
    Thank you for getting the guts to share it; I'm not sure that I could
    have.
    
    Words seem so inadequate right now.
    
    judy

    I'm posting this for a member of the community who wishes to remain
    anonymous.
    
    -Jody
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    
	I don't remember much about the rape itself.  I was in first grade,
    they were much larger than I.  There were a handful of them, four or
    six, hiding in the boys' room stalls.  I don't remember much of what
    happened, but I remember being held face down, being able to see only
    the painted cement floor, for what seemed a long time.  They were not
    gentle.  Thirty years later, I still have hemorrhoids.

	I let go of my rage against those boys, years ago.

	It was a parochial school, and, when I could move, I went to the
    priest who was the school principal and our parish pastor.  We went to
    his office, he listened to my story, and then he took down a large book
    with many pages of hand-written figures in neat columns.  He examined
    several pages of this book, then raged against me.  I was bearing
    hideous false witness against several upstanding boys of the parish, he
    said, and must never repeat my despicable lie to anyone, ever.  It was
    many years before I figured out what that book must have been:  the
    ledger of what families gave how much in the Sunday collections.

	I will likely never manage to let go of my rage against that	
    priest.

	So, I was raped by either a handful of boys who approximated the
    "Beast in the Bushes," or one priest; pick whichever pleases you. I
    know which I think of as the "real" rapist.
    

I am touched and moved by the stories in this note. My response is to
send my love out to those who have been abused and raped. And I send 
my love to this community as we all work together to comfort each other
and to work towards the end of this behavior.


Liz

    re: .31 (Liz)
    
         I second that.  Those were hiddeous acts of brutality and
    denegration.  Perhaps none of us will ever understand how certain
    humans seem able to perpetrate such venom and other venoms.  
    Reading accounts like this leaves me with a sick feeling in my
    stomach.  But I also commend those who were violated with having
    the courage to stand high and also commend them for their
    determination to get on with their lives.  They stand as valuable
    treasures for the rest of us in serving as models of inspiration to
    similarly get on with our lives and as motivators in working to
    eliminate this type of behavior from our realities.
    
    Frederick
    
    

    Hugs, hugs, hugs and more mega-hugs to Cheyenne, anonymous and all
    previous replies, and the unknown silent noters who have been victims
    and are survivors.  
    
    I feel such RAGE, helplessness and fear right now.  If I ever can
    remember my story I will try to share it here.
    
    Courage,
    
    Kim

    
    I'm sorry. I am so disturbed by what I've read that I can barely
    compose a note. Please allow me to ditto the notes by Liz and
    Kim, and others offering support and hugs.
    
    
    							Hank

    everyone,
    
    I ... I um... I am overwhelmed...  thank you.
    
    i love you all,
    cheyenne

Reading these last few replies has opened my eyes to the turmoil my now ex
was going through before we met and during the early years of our marriage..
Not that my eyes were totally closed, but I still couldn't see.




Jim who is saddened but awed by the courage that has been displayed.

    Cheyenne and others,
    
    There are tears here also.
    Thank you for sharing your pain and your courage.
    
    Nancy

    I don't know what kind of person rapes.  I don't know how such a mind
    works.  But I know how it makes me feel to read about what happened to
    the anonymous man who wrote .30, and about cheyenne.  Part of my
    reaction is as a mom -- yeah, strange, huh?  I am so angry that you
    were mistreated the ways you were, I feel much as I do about threats to
    my children.  I feel that I could kill the ones who could abuse any
    child, any person, in that way.  It makes me angry and protective at
    the same time.
    
    Then I get confused, since you who write about this now are grown, and
    come to some way of coping, and I don't know how what I feel, or say,
    or can do, helps.  I fear to cause more hurt.
    
    And I admire you, in a wondering way, for I don't know how you have
    found your strength.  I don't know if I could.
    
    love and healing -
    Sara

    re.32 [Frederick]
    
    You know you just stubbed your toe on one of my tender spots ?
    
    Personally I agree that I'm a 'treasure' ;-} ... but it has little to
    do with having been raped.  It is not that experience and my reaction
    that defines me; but rather the essential me that defines how I reacted
    to the experience.
    
      Annie

    re: .39 (Annie)
    
         Sorry, it's these shoes of mine...they don't fit quite right!  :-}
    
         That isn't exactly what I meant!  What I meant is that since the
    events have happened, as despicable as they were, that the energy
    around them can now be transmuted, and though they were "charcoal"
    before, can now be turned into "diamonds."  That is, the events were
    not for the purposeful good, but they exist.  Now the only reasonable
    alternative seems to me to make the best of it.  As such, as those
    women who have had mastectomies help other mastectomy patients, so
    can these individuals help others by being a source of recovery
    inspiration.  Is this okay?
    
    Frederick
    

    I guess my point is (and this seems to be supported by the terrible
    incidents reported in this topic) it is pointless to point to quiet
    people (or any other kind of people) as the one's to look out for, 
    because a rapist can be anyone.  Besides, when Will Rogers said "All
    I know is what I read in the newspapers", he was being facetious.
    
    					- Vick

    
    re: .41.  Eaxctly.  You never know.  You never really know what goes 
    on betweeen two people, in their house, in their car, behind closed 
    doors, just out of earshot.  You never know what that man, who is 
    smiling, just a little bit, is whispering into the ear of that woman 
    he's with.  He could be saying something sweet, or he could be saying 
    "I saw you smiling at that guy over there.  I bet you'd like to
    <do something to him>.  I'm going to teach you a lesson when we get 
    out of here."
    
    When I finally escaped my husband and told those who asked "Why?", they
    couldn't believe it.  "What?  He's so sweet."  He was sweet, most of
    the time.  The rest of the time he was insanely jealous and paranoid.
    He wasn't too sweet the night he tried to strangle me.
    
    CQ 

    This is extracted from Note 457.7 in V2, from a lecture given by Gail
    Dines on April 4, 1989.  (I've pointed to this note before.  Doesn't
    anyone follow up on this things? she asked plaintively.)
    
    "Studies done on rapists have consistantly shown that there is nothing
    special about the rapist's penis, his brain, or his mother (or his
    upbringing in general).  In every way, he is not noticably different
    from any other man.
    
    "After it was determined that the rapist could not be differentiated
    as abnormal, ..."
    
    						Ann B.

    Frederick
    
    Those are lovely sentiments!
    			
    				BUT

    One does not weep because it's a reasonable alternative. 
    One does not ache with shame because it's a reasonable alterative.  
    One does not slice ones wrists because its a reasonable alternative
    One does not drown in alchohol because its a reasonable alternative

    One does these because escaping the pain is impossible.
    This is the WRONG time to be talking about REASONABLE ALTERNATIVES.
    
    <What I meant is that since the events have happened, as despicable as
    <they were, that the energy around them can now be transmuted, and
    <though they were "charcoal" 
    
    Let me change just ONE word in that quote
    
    <What I meant is that since the events have happened, as despicable as
    <they were, that the energy around them can eventually be transmuted, and
    						^^^^^^^^^
    <though they were "charcoal" 

    and add a couple of additional sentences.

    In the meantime, what you have to suffer to get THROUGH your pain
    will be very unpleasant. Others have done it! I have done it, you too
    can do it to! The trip is worth the pain! Some won't "make it" to the
    other end. But you really have no alternative to trying!
    
    There will be help for you along the way. People who care,
    people who love, people who are travelling the same road.

    		end of herb changing Fred's quote

    Start of Herb talking to Fred

    Fred:

    Once a person recognizes her (or his) history of abuse, the process to
    "recovery" or -say- the process of going from being a victim to being a
    survivor is tough, painful, full of difficulties, uncertain etc
    
    This is not the time to be talking about reasonable alternatives.
    This is the time to be giving support, caring, and love.
    There is no reasonable alternative to changing coal to diamonds is true
    but it can't be heard, so its irrelevant. (and kinda polyanna-ish)
    
    				herb

    RE .44
    
    '...the process of going from being a victim to being a survivor is
    tough, painful, full of difficulty, uncertain, etc"
    
    yes, and slow, and you think it's never going to end, and just when you
    think the worst is over, you remember something new.
    
    no words are really adequate to describe it;  i guess that's why
    we all spend so much time trying.

I haven't had much of a chance to dive into =wn= for a few days...

I read this whole note in one sitting.

I'm numb.  Speechless.

I've read stories like this before, but they've always been remote... detached.
Unreal.

When it happens to someone you know, even if only through the phosphorescent
bit-stream, the reality of the situation can hit you like a salvo...

I've had friends who were raped, but even then the reality was remote...
they never discussed their ordeals in detail, and I never pressed.

To Cheyenne, and Dan, and the others who have bared their souls before us,
here's a big {hug} for all of you, along with all the positive energy I
can possibly send in your direction.  I'll also put aside a special real-life
hug with your name on it in case our paths should cross in real life.

To those who cannot yet bring themselves to discuss their ordeals, here's
some extra {hugs} free for the taking...

I have some observations, but those will come in another note.  For now,
I just want to take a moment to shed a quiet tear with all of you.........

Love and hugs for all...

--jim

    Hugs to Christine and the anonymous author of .30.
    My deepest sympathy to you both. It must be hard to have hope
    in other human beings after experiences like those, and I'm
    glad you have given us the opportunity to express our support.
    It will be a long time before the image of the priest and the
    book (regardless of what was in the book) will leave my mind. 
    
    Eileen 

	re: 888.20

	Cheyenne, I'm so sorry that happened to you.  

	If the person who attacked me (ok, raped) had been someone
	I loved and slept with, etc., I would find it nearly impossible
	to allow myself to love another person again.  Because...
	how do you know the same thing couldn't happen again?  I was 
	wondering if you find this difficult.  

        [Below is not really relevant, but your post made me think
         of it.]

	Recently I was in a group discussion with several other women,
	all who had been raped.  We were comparing our rapes.  Details
	and all.  In segments, not each of us telling a continuous
	story.  We compared scars.  We decided whose rape was the worst
	and whose was the best.  It was the first time I'd talked
	about what had actually happened during it since the trial.

	One common thread was the rapist saying some version of,
	"You know you want it / are enjoying it."

	This could partially answer the question,
	"What kind of a man rapes a woman".

	I'm thinking about starting a collection of quotes entitled,
	"Rapists say the Darndest Things..."  
	
	Cheyenne, thank you for sharing your story here.  

						nancy b.

    
    	First of all, *hugs* to Cheyenne and Anon., it's tough to put
    emotions on paper(even electronic "paper").
    
    	.0 wants to know what kind of person rapes.  I can only give my
    vision.  He was tall, and good looking, athletic and nice--why else
    would my parents have let him hang around so much??  He was my 
    brother's best friend.
    
    	I can't recall details, it was many years ago and I seldom think
    about it.  There was four years difference between us, so he was 
    either 16 or 17 and I was either 12 or 13.  I knew him well, he lived
    a few houses away.  We lived in a nice middle class neighborhood, 
    nothing bad happened there.  I was used to seeing R. all the time, 
    and the day that it happened was like any other.
    
    	I can only remember him following down to the cellar which was
    our "rec" room, paneled and with second hand furniture.  Somehow he
    came up behind me and started to stroke and fondle.  I don't 
    remember what he said, although I remember being afraid to say 
    anything.  He was not rough with me, but forced himself upon me...
    does that make sense?  He insisted that I touch him and made me
    feel like it was my fault somehow that he was doing this to me.  He
    forced himself on me orally and only stopped when he heard a noise 
    from upstairs.   I never told anyone, he said something to me that
    made me feel like I would get in trouble if I told anyone.
    
    	My mother to this day doesn't know that it happened.  I don't 
    think that it's worth telling her for she might just add it as another
    piece to the puzzle of why I am a Lesbian.  The incident had nothing
    to do about my orientation, I knew how I felt long before it happened.
    And no, it doesn't make me hate men...it didn't make me appreciate
    them any better, but I have put what happened into perspective.  I 
    don't think it has really affected me that much, as far as
    incapacitating me or anything like that.  I don't think about it that
    much, but this topic brought it out.  
    
    	Men that rape are not the sinister, scraggly bearded crazies that
    are depicted that way by books or movies...they are the boy next door
    or the nice man in the grocery store--or a million other faces that
    we recognise easily.  I can't say why R. did what he did, I just wanted
    to paint a picture of one such everyday occurance and what a rapist
    looks like.  Hollywood's "All American"--cause that's what R. looked
    like, clean cut and respectable.
    
    
    	I guess there's no pat answer, is there??
    
    
    Debbi

>>    	I guess there's no pat answer, is there??
    
Nope.  Both men and women rape people.  The person that raped me was my dad.
He is currently in jail awaiting trail for molesting my niece.  As the 
investigation goes on looking for witnesses to testify, we've found hundreds 
of women (who were children at the time) that he had touched.  I do know that 
my sister and I were both raped by him, not once but many times.  We don't 
know if the abuse went that far with the others.  With my niece he was fondling 
her above the waist and on top of her clothes.  

What is so disgusting about dad raping me is he was supposed to protect me.
He had no right to have done what he did to any of us.

Judy

    re: 888.49
    
    Nancy, yes, I do find it extremely difficult.
    
    with love,
    cheyenne

Re: .51

The problem of who will protect us from the protectors is ancient.  The
Romans said this way:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodies? - Who will guard the guardians?

One person in Los Angeles said with a video tape that shows four police
officers beating a defenseless civilian.

But your own father...?  My heart goes out to you.

-d

for your book of quotes from rapists:

when I was raped...when he was through he said, "I didn't know you were a
virgin".  I think it was some kind of twisted apology...as if it would be
okay to rape a non-virgin, but somehow not okay to rape a virgin.  I never
told anyone about the rape because I was in Texas at the time...and, right
or wrong, I felt that I would not be treated well or believed if I filed
a complaint there.  This was over 20 years ago.  I don't think about it that
often, but I will always remember what he said.  I now know the situation
I was in has a name, "date rape".  I was out with someone I should have
been able to trust...but I could not trust him after all.  I would like to 
think that my opinion of men, in general, has not been affected by this
experience, but I cannot be sure.  I have male friends whom I love dearly,
but they are also "safe" - married to someone and/or most definitely not
interested in me...perhaps, if truth be told, I do not trust a man who is
too near or "available".  I do know that I will not ever be able to exercise
some of the "freedoms" of modern life that women I know enjoy.  I do not
place myself at risk by going out alone at night, not even if I really want
to see a play or movie.  I know there are rapists out there and I know that
I don't know who they are.  That is the difference between me and someone
who has never been raped.  I know.  I may get old and senile, but I will
know this one thing after all other thoughts leave me.

          re: .54 (TYGON::WILDE)

          > I know there are rapists out there and I know that I don't know
          > who they are.  That is the difference between me and someone
          > who has never been raped.

          This was a 'click' for me.

          It's a shades of grey thing, though.

          The latest stat I heard from the DoJ (Dept of Justice) was that a
          woman age 20 has a 70% chance of being a victim of violent crime
          before her life is over.  I've wrote them to ask how they arrived
          at this statistic.  (if anyone's interested, I'll share the
          response I get)

          Certainly I don't believe other women (for the purposes of this
          discussion, other women :== my peers, other women _friends_) walk
          around blissfully thinking "it couldn't happen to me" after
          hearing those and similar stats, or after reading the stories
          shared here in =wn=.

          But I ***know*** how easily it could happen to them, and they can
          only imagine more or less what the situation would be like.

          And I would honestly rather *not* have this knowledge, and I
          would rather they *not* know to the extent I do.  [In other
          words, pretend I could have acquired this knowledge without
          having actually have been attacked.  I still would rather I not
          have it.]

          Maybe this goes back to what TYGON::WILDE said earlier in hir
          note about 'freedoms'.  My mind would be free-er if I didn't know
          this.   It's like an extra layer of interface to program through
          in order to get the hardware to do what you want.

          Instead of stressing how vulnerable a woman is, I'd rather talk
          about ways she can make herself less vulnerable.

                                             nancy b.

    re .0 Doesn't the question sort of assume that there is one particular
    'sort' of person who rapes? With the corollary that if we just avoid
    (or lock up) that one sort of person, everybody will be safe? This
    seems dangerous to me. Rapists are probably as diverse as any other
    group of humans. 

    Re: .56
    
    No, the question very specifically states that there is no one profile
    of a rapist.  The question "What Kind of Person Rapes"? is partly
    ironic (in a very dark sense) because of how often people do seem to
    assume that you can tell who is likely to attack you.
    
    all evidence to the contrary so far....
    
    (back to the flotation tank)
    
    \D/

    It is with a great deal of sorrow and anger when I hear of these acts
    of violence and brutality directed towards women.  Sorrow for the women
    who had to suffer the pain and anger at members of my sex who actually
    commited these crimes.  I cannot comprehend how any man who considers
    himself a man could abuse a child or a women.
    
    I grew up in an all male household (almost), the youngest of five boys.
    Our house was in general non-violent.  I never witnessed any physical
    violence between my father and mother or between the five of us (boys).
    With no sisterly influence I grew up with the belief that women were
    some sort of mysterious creatures.  If asked how a man should treat a
    woman, I would have answered that a women is someone to love, honor,
    protect, shelter, cherish.  I believe I carried those attitudes into my
    own marriage of 31 years,  and parenthood of four children, three of
    them female.  My own household has been non-violent and our children
    are all giving people.
    
    There are some of us out there who have made commitments to love,
    trust, and fidelity.  Possibly I grew up in more gentle times.  In some
    future note, either here or in Human, I want to talk about the
    differences I see for women in the 50s vs today.
    
    I would not have responded if other men had not offered their opinions.
    I do not want to appear to be an intruder in a very personal
    experience.
    
    paul f

    There is no one *type* - Could be the boy next door just as easily as
    the crazed maniac....Could be anyone, you can't see it in their eyes,
    nor often hear it in their words, until it's too late.
    
    It was my father - I was 15, very shy and vulnerable.  He was drunk,
    he's an alcoholic and will never admit it, nor recover.  I was caught
    somewhere I shouldn't have been and this was his idea of just punish-
    ment.  Today I still live in absolute fear of doing "something I
    shouldn't", and anyone can define that for me.  I spent 3 years in
    therapy, just getting back to the point where I could talk to people.
    I couldn't even order fast food at an order window because I *knew*
    they would see they were better than me, that I was damaged.  I never
    told my mother, I don't think I ever will, she has such a hard time
    seeing the good in my father, I don't think I have it in me to shatter
    her last illusions.  I've never been able to completely trust anyone
    since, I don't know if I ever will, there will always be a part of me
    that I hold seperate......My own father did this to me.  How can we
    know?
    
    I'm shaking just typing this, from fear, from terror, from the
    injustice......It would be nice to forget this, does anyone know a
    way?
    
       -HA

    re: .59
    
    re: "forgetting it"
    
    I tried,  I really tried.  Unfortunately, my attempts involved alcohol
    abuse, making myself bleed, burning myself, nervous stomachs, obsessive
    complusive disorders and nightmares.
    
    All of these before I started to remember the childhood "incident."
    
    Someday, when I think I may be ready, I'm planning on getting together
    with my survivor friends and having a group "purging" ceremony.  Burn
    some reminders of that past and banish it forever to the past.  I'm not
    ready to do that yet, but someday, someday, I promise myself.
    
    You are strong.  You are special and it will get easier.
    
    love&hope,
    
    \D/

I find all these survivor stories so moving and powerful.  At the same
time I find them hard to hear because they do involve so much pain and
what seems like a long and hard process of recovery.  I wish there was
something I could do to take away your pain.

In an early childhood development class I was in last month we watched
a movie about dance therapy and autism.  This woman, instead of using
behavior modification (which is widely used) to mold the child to
adult expectation without fixing the underlying problem, this woman
learned the language of the child.  So she would mimic the repetitive
and "self-stimulating" motions of the two girls she was working with.
So what she really did was to accept and love them unconditionally on
their own terms.  And gradually, the two girls, who had *never*
communicated with anyone before, gradually started to interact with
the therapist.  It brought tears to my eyes to see the children start
to play with the therapist.  Eventually, the children got enough trust
to start bonding like a baby with the therapist and wanted to be held
and fed.  So they had to go through the infant stage they had missed.
Then the started the normal separation phase.

I was thinking that really autism is just one end of a continuim that
we are all in.  I really related to those kids from the point of view
of my own teenage years where I felt very isolated, alone, and
separate.  One thing I feel I have really gained from my own recovery
from alcoholism over the last 6 years is all that pain can help me to
feel compassion and identify with the pain of others.  When I saw that
movie and saw how pain had just closed dowm those two girls yet how
they yearned and wanted to be in relationship if accepted as
themselves, I felt the pain and suffering of people all over the
earth and the pain of suffering of the earth which is also struggling
to breathe free.

Reading these stories and seeing that movie is a good reminder to me
about short life is and how much work there is to be done to help save
all things from suffering and what is really important in this life.
I wish I felt more ready and worthy to do this work than I do
sometimes.

Thank you all who have shared their stories and I wish you well.  Joy
and peace is possible.

    .61
    
    Your note reminded me of the books "A Circle Of Children" and (I think)
    "No Other Language Than A Cry" (or something like that) by Mary
    McCracken.
    
    Moving books.
    
    -Jody
    

Yeah, I liked A Circle Of Children a lot.  Another one is Dibs - In
Search of Self.

peace,
john

	re: .59 (Heather)

	I'm sorry this happened to you.  

	> It would be nice to forget this, does anyone know a way?
    
	Amnesia pills.  The recipe varies depending on how bad
	the remembering gets.

	Seriously, though, with regards to nightmares, I wish
	medical advances would include drugs which eliminate them.
	I would sacrifice all dreaming to get rid of nightmares
	(which is what I suspect would happen with such a drug.)


	re: .60 (Daniel Katz)

>    Someday, when I think I may be ready, I'm planning on getting together
>    with my survivor friends and having a group "purging" ceremony.  Burn
>    some reminders of that past and banish it forever to the past.  I'm not

	I know of other survivors who are interested in doing something
	like that.  
						nancy b.

    
    I love ceremonies, rituals.  I took part in a wonderful -- very
    powerful, very beautiful, very moving -- ceremony awhile back.  It 
    was part of an exercise designed to exorcise shame.  
    
    We (the participants) all wrote a "core lie" on a piece of paper.  Then 
    we all wrote a core truth to counteract the lie.  While we did this, 
    the facilitators created an altar in the fireplace.  It was dusk, and 
    the only light was the light of the candles on the mantle, and the three 
    candles at the altar.  In addition to the three candles in satiny silver 
    candlesticks, there were pretty stones, and flowers, and a pot from the 
    kitchen, in the middle.  We were taught a chant to the goddess Kali (sp?), 
    who, we were told, is/was the goddess of transformation.  As we sang, 
    accompanied by the voices of the facilitators, and their instruments,
    one by one we went up to the altar, stooped and held our core lie to the 
    flames, dropping it into the pot as it burned.  As each of us stood and 
    turned to face the group, our singing and playing hushed.  The one 
    standing recited their core truth as an affirmation, in the first person.  
    Those of us seated echoed it back in the second person.  That person 
    returned to sit on the floor and another of us stood to approach the 
    altar and our singing became louder while the next one of us set their 
    core lie aflame, and hushed as they turned to recite... and so on.
    
    Perhaps this gives you an idea, if you hadn't yet anything in mind.  
    
    CQ

    that's a *beautiful* ceremony!  I'm going to save this until the right
    time arrives...thank you.
    
    actually, I have a sort of "club" with two of my friends...we're going
    to keep track of our abusers so we know when they are dead.  Then we
    get to fly out to wherever they are buried and dance on their graves --
    I'm thinking of taking ballroom lessons just to do it with style.
    
    \D/

    .59
    
    Heather,
    
    seems like we've been friends forever and I know that you carry this
    pain with you always, that its a part of you that no friend will ever
    be able to wipe away as much as Id personally like to.  I would however
    like to let you know how much you mean to me - you are a dear, dear
    friend - one that I never want to be without.  All I can offer you is
    lots of hugs, a shoulder or 2 to lean on, and alot of love!  Ill always
    be there for you - forever your friend,  Maureen.
    

    -1
    
    Thanks Maureen - I know!  And it helps to know my friends are there,
    it really does, I don't know what I'd do without you all!
    
      -HA

    there was an article on what kind of person rapes in the Boston Globe
    yesterday...if noone else has it online, I'll type it in here if
    there's interest.

>>>                     <<< Note 888.69 by MR4DEC::HETRICK >>>

please do....I'd be interested in the current thinking.

    I have a copy of the article but haven't had time to type it in.
    
    BJ

    I know this is considerably after the fact but I just got this far.
    
    Someone suggested ar requested a way to forget that the event never
    happened and that touched a nerve in me.  I don't believe forgetting is
    healthy.  I "forgot" allot of stuff and had to go through 2 years of
    therapy to recover.  There are incidents that I still cannot recall
    even though others have described them to me in detail.
    
    And yes I was raped.  I was a freshman in college, it was homecoming, I
    was drunk, My friends asked this person to take me for a ride to sober
    me up.  I had never met him before and never saw him again.  I begged
    him not to, when it was over I asked him if I got pregnant would he
    marry me and he said sure (right!, he didn't know me from Eve).  I
    tried to tell myself for months that it didn't happen but I had the
    bloody underwear as proof.  The actual act was not so painful, due to
    alcohol, it was what came after.  You see I was raised in a very strict
    mid-western mentality.  My Mother told me that if I was not a virgin no
    man would want me.  I was "damaged goods".  I was fairly sure my
    parents would not believe that I was raped after all I wasn't suposed
    to drink alcohol.  When my Dad found out that I drank he accused me of
    sleeping around but I denied it, his temper was more than I could
    handle. ( I finially told my parents a year ago to get it out in the
    open and deal with it, they asked me was I sure I was raped, after all
    I was drunk, drunks deserve what they get.  We worked thru that and I
    didn't totally loose my temper but the memory is still alittle sore) 
    Now all my self esteem was gone in one stupid act.  
    
    When I met the man who eventually became my husband I felt I had to
    tell him.  I felt that I didn't deserve his understanding after all I
    never forgave myself.  Even tho I wanted to break off our relationship
    I couldn't because he knew my secret and wanted me anyway.  So I rushed
    into marriage.  I do love him but I also hate him.  I put years into
    trying to be the person he wanted me to be.  I endured the slurs and
    put downs, the reminders of my "soiled" condition because I was raised
    that divorce was not an option.  I've never let another man get close
    to me, when they start to get close I find a way to run away.  Now we
    have three children, I have been to councilling and feel that I have
    reconsiled my past.  I still love/hate my husband.  He hasn't grown up
    to accept his responsibilities yet because I've always taken care of
    him.  I want to stay to try and give the children the best environment
    that I can, It actually looks like a happy household from the outside. 
    Inside I run away every day.  In 10 years my daughter will be 18 and in
    college, I plan to leave then.  Sometimes I wonder if I can wait,
    sometimes are OK.  I speak up for mysefl more now, until the conflict
    gets too intense then I retreat and patch up the wounds.  He is so busy
    doing outside things that he hardly even notices.
    
    You know what my dream relationship is...
    Being able to get a hug when you need it without having to agree to let
    someone fondle you, no expectations just being accepted as you are,
    sitting in front of a fireplace side by side no demands just being
    friends.
    
    I guess I rambled.  I don't think trying to forget is healthy.  I tried
    to forget, to make up for what I considered to be "my mistake".  It
    stayed right there beneath the surface sabotaging my self esteem, no it
    wasn't healthy for me.
                                                     

    re.72
    
    I appreciate your story.  Although I can not relate to the rape
    issue, I fortunately have never been in that situation, I can
    understand your feelings as you present them relative to your marriage.
                                                         
    

    
    re.  72
    
    	Sigh.  So *many* hurting people in the world.  Why do we have to
    hurt each other??   I know that life is lessons to be learned, but 
    why so much pain along the way??    L_ (I wish we knew your name),
    (((hugs))) to you.  I know it's not much, but somtimes it's all we 
    have to give in this world.  
    
    Debbi

    re .72
    You should not have felt guilty for getting drunk, that guy was 
    obviously a JERK !  
    I don't think you should stay with your husband just for the kids,
    this often isn't the best thing for the kids either. There are a lot
    of good men out there, you should maybe take advantage of that.