Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I would say, try and foster humanness in your child.
    
    Maleness, if there is such a thing, will come of its own accord.
    
    Teach your child to love himself and others; teach him to learn and to
    care and to do the right thing.  That is your responsibility as
    parents.  A child who knows he is loved for who he is will learn to
    love himself, *including* his maleness.  You needn't "teach" him to be
    male to not deny his maleness.
    
    I don't really think there is such a thing as maleness in an absolute
    sense.  Gender identify is a socially defined construct.  Some people
    have stronger gender identities than others - that is, some people
    identify more strongly with their genders than others.  I have a
    weak gender identity - as a Lesbian I am finding a gender identity is
    important to me so I am building one.  It is a volatile thing.
    
    The thing to ask yourself is - why is it so important to you that your
    son have a strong male identity?  Do you think it will make him
    happier?  More successful?
    
    So my advice is - buy the clothes you like for you son while he is a
    baby; let him choose his own clothes as he grows up.  Buy him both
    active and passive toys, and let him decide for himself which he likes;
    don't push him one way or the other.  Let him seek out both male and
    female friends, male and female role models, and as time goes on, he
    might (or he might not) develop a preference for a "masculine" way of
    being.
    
    I think too many parents try to shape their kids natures too much. 
    Better to provide a loving, nurturing and supportive environment and
    let your son find his own way.
    
    D!

    Further thoughts - if there *is* such a thing as "maleness" - some
    essential part of Being that is uniquely male, then it isn't something
    one instills in one's child.  It just happens, like human nature. 
    Trying to make it exist when it isn't there, or trying to supress it
    when it is, is sure to produce an unhealthy and unhappy child.
    
    D!

    Maybe it would help to start this discussion by agreeing on some
    terms.
    
    maleness - actual/biological/inborn traits of humans with an XY
    chromosome pair
    
    masculinity - traits associated by `the' society with male people;
    some to all will be acquired
    (These traits will vary depending on the society in question, and the
    century (or fraction thereof) being contemplated.  This is the exciting
    bit.)
    
    Scientists are only just starting to discover what is inborn, and how
    to test to find out if something is inborn or acquired.  Ask me this
    question again in thirty years.  :-)
    
    							Ann B.
    
    P.S.  Decide what you think are the best traits of human beings. 
    Declare these to be the traits of maleness, and encourage them in
    your child.  If/when you have a girl, declare those very same traits
    (no more, no fewer) to be the traits of femaleness, and encourage
    them in your child.  Best wishes.  :-)

    Oh, a little background so you'll know where i am coming from.
    
    My mother tried to encourage certain traits, commonly thought of as
    masculine, in me, such as mathematical and analytical ability,
    activeness, etc.  I am glad she encouraged these things in me, but I
    wish she hadn't tried to supress the so-called "feminine".  I think it
    would have been equally damaging, though, to have encouraged the
    feminine and suppressed the masculine.
    
    I think we are all both feminine and masculine, and to be our whole
    selves we much let each of these aspects of ourselves grow and thrive. 
    Your note (the base note) sends me warning signals that you might try
    to supress the feminine in your son.  Your son *will* be feminine.  He
    will also be masculine.  Encourage both of these aspects, and let time
    tell which will become "predominant", if any.
    
    D!

    re .0, I can't understand why you would want to encourage "maleness" in
    your child?  In my opinion, if the baby is a male, then whatever the
    baby is like must be what a male is like.  Unfortunately, some of the
    traits I've come to think of as typically male, are not attributes I'd
    care to encourage in anybody.
    
    I think kids should be encouraged to have self-confidence and to
    believe that they can achieve and be whatever they want, but I don't
    understand why they should be encouraged to be display maleness or
    femaleness in particular.
    
    Lorna
    

    The MOST important thing that you can do for your little boy is to
    nurture his self-esteem.  If his self-esteem is strong, he'll do fine
    with everything else.  Separate his behavior, physical attributes, etc.
    from HIM and let him know that you love him unconditionally - even
    though sometimes you may not like his behavior, his taste, etc.
    
    My daughter likes to play with legos, computers, and build models with 
    her dad.  She's always collecting bugs and other small animals.
    She also loves to play with her dollhouse and has lots of dolls.
    When ever she gets something new she tries to figure how to take it
    apart and see how it works.
    
    Is she more or less feminine than some standard?  I don't know.  Is she
    a happy, health child? Yes.  The former doesn't concern me - the latter
    is of utmost importance.
    
    

    How to tell the difference between "inherent" maleness and
    society-induced maleness?  If you trust your instincts, it should be
    easy.  Those things that make you uncomfortable are probably the false
    ones pushed by society.  Fighting in the schoolyard is the most obvious
    one that comes to mind, belittling a little boy for crying is another
    one.  In general, it's fathers who seem to be the ones most often
    pushing for compliance with the societal definitions.  Mothers tend to
    look at their children as "their children" and don't want them hurt by
    anyone, don't want them belittled when they're sad, etc.  So if you trust
    yourself and listen to your feelings, I'm sure that will result in 
    your son will being able to feel comfortable expressing whatever 
    attributes that are natural to him.  And isn't that the goal?  You
    might start talking with your husband now about the level of
    "compliance" he's going to expect so that when the day comes that your 
    son comes running home crying, you can attend to him rather than
    turning suddenly to each other with clashing expectations and possibly
    an argument, leaving your son alone, bewildered, frightened and unsure.
    
    Sandy                                                                 
    

    Yup, yup, yup, yup, yup and I agree.
    
    My son is 6 mos. and I had some of the same thoughts when I was
    pregnant.  I had fleeting worries esp. about how to address a boy's 
    feelings.  I have two sisters and had no experience with taking care of
    boys.  Guess what?  They're all the same!  It's so much easier that
    way!  Although what I did wish for once he arrived was an owner's
    manual, which I would have wanted for any baby.
    
    Seriously, one of the most important things I do is to recognize my own
    sexism or whatever-ism as it happens.  I would no more discourage him
    from crying or wearing pink if he wanted to than I would encourage him
    to be right- or left-handed.  He seemed to be a lefty for a while and I
    made myself present objects to the middle of his body rather than to
    the left hand I wanted him to develop.  I suspect there are a few
    gender-based traits due to physical differences and that they stop
    there.  Like how we can't all make babies, but we can all nurture.
    
    My husband and I were both raised with healthy doses of gender
    non-bias in terms of careers and lovers and how we view the world in
    general.  We will teach our children to have manners, to be considerate
    of others' feelings, to have lots of fun and to be responsible for the
    planet.  They will be encouraged in whatever they do, even if the boys
    want to dance ballet and the girls want to play football.  And we will
    explain to them how the rest of the world may feel about their
    decisions.  If we do not treat them the same it will not be because of
    their genders but because of their individual needs.
    
    For me, parenting came as naturally as breathing.  The most difficult
    thing I've had to face so far has been trying to live up to the
    standards I preach.  Kids learn more from what you do than what you
    say.
    
    Nancy

    
    see also
    
    womannotes-V2
    291 - raising feminist children
    
    -Jody
    

>My question is this, what is it to be male? I'm not trying at all to be
>    facetious, I'm just trying to figure out what inherent maleness is so
>    that I can foster that quality in our baby.

 You will find that you do not have to actively encourage your boy to be
male; it happens quite naturally and needs no further assistance from the
parents. What you do need to do is refrain from attempting to redefine
your child in your or someone else's view of what maleness is. Fostering
self confidence and self worth are paramount (along with discipline, of
course.)

>    We've gone shopping for baby items and everything seems to be divided
>    into male and female colors. I was shocked at the difference in the
>    baby clothing selections for male and female babies. Is that maleness?

 I have a two yr old daughter. When we went shopping for baby clothes for the 
first few times, we also noticed the stark differences in baby's clothing. 
That's nonsense. We bought Kacie both dresses and overalls, frilly shirts and 
rugged shirts, etc. There's no reason to dwell on clothing and whether it's
something that girls or boys should wear (though this may be more true with
little girls than it is with little boys vis � vis societal acceptance.)

>    I've been told by many mothers that baby boys are more active and more
>    more aggressive than baby girls. Is that maleness?

 Apparently not. My daughter has on more than one occasion let the larger
children (girls and boys) that she is not to be trifled with. She is also
_extremely_ active. Aggression in and of itself is not maleness.

>    I look at the toy difference for males and females, the female toys are
>    docile while the male toys are things that you can *do* something with.
>    Does maleness lie within there somewhere?

 KC has blocks and dolls. Depending on her moods she will prefer one toy
or another. But she likes all of her toys; denying her a subset would be
disadvantageous, I would think. Get some of each. And if your little boy
likes a doll or stuffed animal, don't teach him that that's not ok for little
boys to do.

 The Doctah

    
    Response from the anonymous basenoter.
    
    -Jody

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


    	Thank you for the replies so far.

    	It is not my intention to suppress the feminine quality in my male
    child, in fact, fostering the feminine side will be easy (I, from
    experience, know what it is to be feminine, and I'm not talking ribbons
    and bows here). I don't have any concerns about me helping him to be
    aware of his feminine qualities so for me it wasn't an issue (hence the
    interpretation that I might be ignoring that side).

    	However, I do not know (nor will I ever know) what it is to be a
    male and I just worry about whether or not I will be able to do the
    "right thing" when helping him to be aware of his male qualities. I
    think that I would also have some concerns (although to a lesser
    degree) of how to foster the maleness in a female child. You see for a
    female, I can always look at myself as an example, for a male, I can
    look to my husband, but that's just an interpretation of what I
    perceive. I also don't want to leave the femaleness up to me and the
    maleness up to my husband, I want us both to be involved in the gender
    roles.

    	It's great to think that you can raise boy and girl babies the
    same, but is that really the case? Just as an example of the
    difference, there appears to be physiological evidence that male and
    female brains have differences, shouldn't I acknowledge that and help
    to foster it? Or should I just wait and see where he is heading (like
    the example given of right/left handedness)?

    	I guess what I am saying is that I want to make sure I present an
    equal and non-biased presentation of maleness and femaleness, but in
    order for me to do this, I have to have an understanding of what
    maleness is. But maybe that is an impossibility. Perhaps this falls
    into the, "I will never know what it is like to be a rock because I am
    not a rock" category.

    	If you haven't figured it out by now, this is my first baby, I just
    want to make sure that I give him every opportunity of balanced growth
    that I can. I want to avoid what D!'s mother did to her and I want my
    son to grow up being able to express both his male and female
    qualities. 

    	Perhaps though, this is also a fear/concern that will disappear
    when he is here and I can start accepting and nurturing his own unique
    personality for what it is.

If you and your husband can refrain from ever saying,

	"big boys don't cry"
	"a man isn't afraid"
	"now that you're older, let's just shake hands on that"
	"don't be a big baby"

If you can let him play with dolls if he wants to, as long as he wants to,
and to play with trucks if he wants to, as long as he wants to...

If you can let him tell you who he is, rather than you always telling 
him..

If you can let him BE, then he will surely become his own man in the fullness
of time.  And your job of getting him there will have been so much easier...

If I was raising a son, I would

teach him to love the written word so he can always escape into the magic of
his own imagination -- for the price of a library card			       

teach him to love music to dance to, music to sing to, music to listen in
reverence to....and let him choose his own song - for he will choose

teach him to love the power and majesty of the spoken word and the pleasures
of good conversation that nutures the soul, challenges the mind, soothes the
troubled heart and brings the joys of life into the light

teach him to find his own moral sense of right and wrong.  Once there, it
will be a part of him for all his days and he will never drift far from the
path he needs to follow

teach him it is right to love others and right that he should be loved...
that there is no shame in feeling loss and pain...that there is no shame in
crying when he feels the need to cry, no shame in laughing when his heart is
full of joy

teach him how valuable and rare the life of every child must be

teach him to take care of his world, his family, himself

< teach him how valuable and rare the life of every child must be

  re:-1  ::Wilde
    
    That is the single most special thing I've read.  That child will
    be a child long before he is male or a man.  Let him be the precious
    thing that children are.
    
    Peace,
    Allison
    

>Just as an example of the
>    difference, there appears to be physiological evidence that male and
>    female brains have differences, shouldn't I acknowledge that and help
>    to foster it? 

Why? What's the need?  If it is physiological, it needn't be *fostered*.
Obviously it must be *accepted*, and your son should not be made to feel
ashamed of it, but what do you mean by "fostering" it?

And for non-physiological differences - why foster differences?   Is there
an advantage to there being a wider gap between the sexes?

I really don't understand what you are saying. It sounds like you are 
saying you want to *make* your boy be a male, in which case I say he is
already male, and you needn't make him be anything; or you are trying to
be supportive of his maleness, in which case you needn't do anything 
different for a male than a female, just be supportive of *him* and that
will include his maleness.


Frankly, I think you are focussing too much on the differences between
the sexes. I imagine if you try and "foster his maleness", as you put it,
you are more apt to put undue pressure on him to act one way or another
than to help him feel good about himself.

Let it go...

D!

    re: .12
    
    I could not agree more with your advise....I think letting a child be
    who he or she is the most important and to encourage the child to be an
    individual.....I am helping to bring up my grandson and I let him
    experience what it is he wants to experience.....he is three years old
    and is becoming a loving, caring person who is very open....I can't say
    enough about just letting the child be and introduce them to all kinds
    of adventures....
    
    denise
    

    As the mother of male and female twins it has been my experience that
    there are indeed differences between the genders.  These differences
    are instinctual, and I believe gender related.  But I don't think you
    need be too concerned about raising a boy baby, instilling a sense of
    maleness.  He will find that all by himself.  Further, your child will
    be influenced a great deal by the world in which he lives, the culture
    in which he's brought up.  As much by that, as by you.
    
    In the beginning, just love him, that's all he needs.  As he gets
    older, talk.  Talk about anything and everything.  Don't assume
    ignorance based on how young a child is, they know more than you give
    them credit for!
    
    And show him how YOU think and feel about things, and his father do the
    same.  That's how children grwo and learn.  Above all, don't worry
    about having to reinforce his maleness.  Allow it to happen and it
    will.
    

    I haven't read all the replies, and I have to be quick -- I'm on my way
    out to take 2 of each (one of each is mine!) swimming for an hour --
    but I had to respond.
    
    Someone else said it, in an early reply.  Fostering self esteem is the most
    important thing you can do for your child's happiness in life.  Nothing
    else is worth a damn without it.  You can't believe in your own basic
    worth without it.
    
    As to the alleged gender differences, well I believe there must be
    some, but that the wide normal ranges for each gender largely overlap
    eachother, in a completely irregular pattern.  My girl and boy are far
    more different due to their own innate personalities than because of
    their sex organs/hormone balances.
    
    In general -- useless advice, how well I know it! -- relax, it's easier
    than it looks now, to raise a kid.  It will feel hard, and be hard, and
    you'll look back at earlier parts and think oh, how easy it was then!
    If you have more than one, you'll smile at how hard you thought it was
    the first time.  I know I did!
    
    Now, who has advice for the teen years?  I positively dread them...
    
    Write offline if you want -- many hugs -- Sara

    My son graduated from high school a week and a half ago.  For the last
    5 years, I've raised him alone.  For the 7 years before that, his
    father and I were separated, but we had joint physical custody.  That
    lets you know where this response is coming from.
    
    Your baby boy will be male, regardless of how you do or don't raise
    him.  He will have a male role model in his father, for good or for
    ill.  If it turns out to be for ill (and I hope you don't think that
    will be the case), then there will be other men in his life who will
    act as examples of what men are like.  The best that you can do is be a
    good role model of what it is to be female, and you won't be able to
    help that, since it is what you are.
    
    As he grows, you will find that he has interests that you don't have
    today.  For my son, it was a desire to play soccer -- and I followed
    him into that world of competitive sports.  I've never been a team
    sports player, so I don't understand all the emotional "stuff" that
    goes with it, but I have been supportive of his efforts and sympathetic
    to the inevitable failures and disappointments.
    
    Relax.  Let him teach you what he needs.  Love him, with the love that
    instills self-discipline.  Expose him to as many different experiences
    as you can imagine, and follow up on those which he enjoys.  It's a
    wonderful adventure, and for me it is one which has gotten better and
    better as my son has grown.
    
    Alison

_Growing_Up_Free_  by Letty Cottin Pogrebin

(Grain-of-salt disclaimer:  my personal philosophy is:
 "there are at least one hundred ways to raise a child;
   whichever one you pick is going to be wrong for that 
   particular child.")

Bobbi "Thank the Deity that gestation has a deadline" Fox

    1st:
      re: -.1
      <Gender identity is a socially defined construct. >
      Worse than that, it isn't binary, like genital sex - it's analog.
      not only are both elements present in everyone, the ratio of
      masculine to feminine is infinitely variable.  One of the worst
      things (outside of overt abuse) a parent can do is to attempt to 
      force a child's focus to either end of the spectrum against their
      natural inclinations.  To comply the child must "bury" attitudes,
      aptitudes or interests which don't "fit" the binary model.
      (they tend to not stay buried, and resurrect under most incovenient
      circumstances.)
    
    re: -.6
      Well said!
    
    re: -.16
      As the parent of four, but no twins, i am led to suspect that much of
      differences you observed are due as much to individual differences as 
      to inherent biological predisposition.
    
    One more vote for concentrating on promoting a healthy self image in
    your child.  Next, a healthy curiousity about everything (*).  If those
    are solid, all else will follow without much conscious effort.
    
    [*] It isn't easy, when the interest is about what's behind switch and
    socket covers, and the like.
         [dale]
    
                 

   Dale (.21),
    
    Speaking from my own life and experience.  Your reply points out a
    significant item.  Encouraging a childs indiviuality and self esteem
    (mentioned earlier) are important to normal development.  Binary
    attitudes regarding sex and gender are dangerous as they will likely
    conflict with the building of a good self image.  Your right, those
    things do have a way of comming up later and are not resolved easily
    then.
    
    Love them for what they are, treat them with respect.  Encourage
    couriousity and experimentation within bounds.  Provide role models
    for them to follow, and to model their live from.
    
    Peace,
    Allison