Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Cindi,
    
    I'm in touch with most [maybe all] of what you're feeling right now.
    
    Back in the early days of our relationship, I was the bread-winner
    [such pitiful 'bread' as it was] and Rick was a graduate student.
    
    When Rick finished his schooling, he immediately went into a job that
    pulled in more than 2.5 times what I was making.
    
    Everyone thought I'd be tickled pink.  Well, I was.  And then I really
    wasn't.
    
    Happy as I was to enjoy a more affluent standard of living; I felt
    d*mned awful going from a 'valued partner in the relationship' to a
    'one-down cipher.'
    
    No, Rick _never_ said a word, never acted differently [OK, I lied ... he
    began to but stuff before checking with me first, but that's because he
    no longer felt the need to ask if we had the money]
    
    It was me, me, me!!!  _I_ felt like I had to ask permission [it made
    him crazy when I asked ...].  _I_ felt like a millstone.
    
    I was making gradual progress on my road to balance when Rick got a new
    job 2,000 miles away and our finances were completely separate for
    about 5 months.
    
    It was WONDERFUL!!! I lived on what I was making without any subsidy
    from Rick.  He'd have sent some money, but this was something I had to
    prove to myself.
    
    While I wouldn't suggest moving out of the house, perhaps you could
    negotiate a finite time period where everything essential [shelter,
    food, utilites, etc] that you share be split equally with all other
    costs paid the one incurring them.  After that time expires, don't look
    back...just enjoy what you [both] have built together.
    
    I know that you know you can do it -- you've been the primary provider,
    so why _wouldn't_ you be able to cover yourself.  But it may work for
    you, as it did for me, as the buffer you need before you can accept
    'ours' without being the largest earner.
    
      Annie

    Thank you,
    
    I'm still working on that "our" "we" thing.
    
    
    I have a few years before he takes full effect.-
    But... still-
    
    Cindi

    I've gone from being the secondary provider to the primary.  What's
    happened to us is that my husband has taken over all the housework
    since he lost his job.  While it's just lovely to come home to supper
    on the stove, the laundry washed and folded, and all the vacuuming
    done, I'm finding it difficult to adjust.  It has always been my job to
    do the housely things and I've liked it that way.  Now I have to give
    up control of all those details to him and it's hard.  I hadn't
    realized how much of myself was wound up in the house.  He has agreed
    to take off for a weekend just so I can have the house control back for
    a while.  Isn't it odd how financial and time considerations impact
    one's life?
    
    Dondi

	Their are a few solutions, and you may want to consider what will be
	best for both of you.


	1. A joint account.
	Both lots of money go in, but one person takes the reigns on all 
	financial matters. It doesn't have to be the main wage-earner that 
	takes the reigns.

	2. A joint account.
	Both lots of money go in, the "regular" payments such as mortgage 
	insurances etc are paid, and the remainder is decided jointly.

	3. 2 separate accounts, and 1 joint account
	Keep your accounts separate. Work out all the regular outgoings.
	Decide what split you will pay each towards the outgoings - 50-50?
	40-60?, and transfer these to the joint account which pays all the
	regular bills. You then have control over what you have as a remainder.

	You could try variations on this, such as one pays the mortgage, one 
	pays the food bills etc.

	I have seen all of the above work, I have also see them fail when 
	people were working one system, but would have been hapier with another.

	As you have time, then I hope you manage to come to a suitable way
	of managing.

ah, control issues.  Of course that's what this is all about; our feelings 
about control.  Cindi and her husband have put together a way that seems to
work right now, and change is always scary; even change that is for the better
is change, and almost by definition change is hard to control.

the devil you know, eh?  I've been there, on more than one kind of issue...

To me, the most important part of this money issue is not who makes more, or
who controls the books, but

	What The Goals Are.

If you are in agreement about what the goals are, if you have shared goals, then
I think you may be less uncomfortable about yielding some control. Talk, Cindi,
talk not about the mechanics of control - that is secondary - but first about
what you (singly and together) want to strive for.  

anyway, in my household we also have found a way that works for us.  Kind of.
When I worked full-time, we were more or less even (I made somewhat less, but
I started working 2 years after he did, too) (and he's far more ambitious than
I am).  I have worked part-time for 6 years, so obviously there's a huge gap 
now.  Somehow that doesn't bother either of us.  I keep the records, the 
checkbook, pay the bills; he does the taxes.  Joint accounts, almost all 
around.  We are not always in perfect agreement about everything, but generally
we have enough of the same goals, to make the disagreements fairly minor.

Good luck, and keep talking!  -Sara 

    if I ever get into a two-income relationship (like almost-equal income
    relationship - never been in one of them, only been the
    supporter)...I'd do the following
    
    Each deposits to "join" account a percentage of joint costs, that
    percentage being dependent on the discrepancy between the salaries
    (total salary divided by each person's salary is their contribution).  
    
    The remainder of each income can either go into a slush fund to be used
    jointly, each can keep it separately, it can go into a "save for the
    house we'll buy someday" fund,, or the like.
    
    I think it's important to have SOME frivol money around ata ny given
    point in time.  each person's will be independent and will be spent
    EXACTLY as they wish.  
    
    -Jody
    

I have been in situations similar (butnot so serious) before, and I have
found that the actual solution to the money issue (ie: who puts in how
much money, etc, etc) isn't nearly as important as getting through all
the hidden ISSUES surrounding money.

Money is just such a big deal.  Some women were raised with the idea that
they ought to be "taken care of", and if they contribute more of the money
they are failures as women.  Other women (like myself) were raised with 
the idea that we ought to contribute equally or we are failures. And all
of us are raised with the idea that money equals control, and giving up
money means giving up control. We all have a tremendous amount of emotional
baggage surrounding money.

So I think the idea is to talk through the issues - make sure you have no
misunderstandings.  (Like - maybe you feel he will want more say in day-to-day
household issues? Maybe you will feel guilty spending money?  etc.)  Once
you've worked through that, the actually logistics of the money problem will
probably work itself out.

D!

Both of us were raised "traditionally" to believe that he supplies and she is
taken care of. Over the years we found this to be very unsatisfactory. He (me,
that is) felt pushed and unappreciated ("I'm just supposed to be an endless
supply of money?" is one of the less destuctive comments I made.) She (Joy,
that powerless and uncertain. We both felt used by the other one. Our finances
were a mess.

Without going into a lot of history, what we do now is openly and jointly 
discuss money and finances, and make decisions together.Reaching this state
was not easy. It has been the only major source of marital strife. (There have
been lots of minor ones. Don't sweat the small stuff.) It literally took much 
work and several years.

I am still the primary provider. We have separate (but joint) checking 
accounts and a joint savings account. Everybody pays their own regualar 
expenses from their own account. We discuss and jointly decide on spending 
for anything except regular bills and minor expenses. This is not a panacea.
It is a joint give and take, and it can be difficult emotionally. But it works
for us.

Bruce

Some studies show that:

For many women, money is equated with security.

For many men, money is equated emotionally with power.

Bruce

    I am a woman.  To me, money is power.
    
    I understand the "whaddayathinkI'mmadeamoney?" line.
    I switch it a little though... "What do you thing, the money just
    GROWS from my purse?". But as long as I keep final say, and
    must be cajoled for the rest, my opinion is needed for financial
    decisions I remain sound.  In fact, for most major ones- I sigh,
    but pay them reasonably without feeling put upon.
    
    The pull and tug that I envision beginning when my partner
    has more collateral (which to me is the equivalent of votes)
    is a potential challenge.
    
    From the notes I am reading, I gather that it is a partnership
    thing. 
    
    Negotiations, negotiations, negotiations...
    but at least it is not unusual.
    
    I was wondering if I should change my perspective somehow.
    
    However, it seems as though it's a comic trading type balance
    act, that you can only really learn by doing it.
    
    Sigh,
    
    Cindi

    
    My husband and I have worked out a way that seems to work for
    us.  I make about 30% more than my husband, so I guess that
    makes me the primary provider.
    
    We both have and reconize our strangeness with money.  My parents
    used to buy me things, and then use them to have power over me.
    ie: "while I'm paying for your college education, you'll do X!"
    (Any many more minor purchases as well.)  his parents were always
    very strict  with money.  Bottom line is, we both are happy
    spending our own money but uncomfortable spending from a joint
    pot of money.  
    
    So, we have a joint checking account and joint savings.  On
    our repective pay days, a pre-specified amount goes into each.
    What's left over is our own.  Since I have alot of bills that
    he doesn't, the pay disparity works out to be nil.  The joint
    checking is used to pay constant bills, as well as things like
    groceries, which change weekly.  Things like makeup, clothes
    golf lessons ...come from private funds.  Entertainment comes
    from private funds.  (we go dutch on our dates.)
    
    We tried keeping everything separate, for about a year or marriage.
    that just got to be too much of a pain.  We think this should 
    work better.
    
    Rachael
    

        Many years ago I read an article about wives who had gone
        from being paid less than their husbands were paid to
        being paid more than their husbands were paid.  One of
        the wives commented that one thing that changed was that
        now she says "no" to her husband when he wants to have
        sex and she doesn't.  She hadn't realized that until just
        then talking to the interviewer/author, who described her
        as quite amazed at the thought and the implications.  It
        made me wonder what a traditional marriage was supposed
        to be.  I'm also reminded now of a comment I saw in notes
        that a wedding ceremony looks a lot like a transaction
        where the groom purchases a woman from her father.
        
        Dan

    When I was married to my ex-husband we lumped all the money together,
    paid the bills first, and then basically shared the rest 50-50.  By the
    end of the marriage, 12 1/2 yrs. later, he was making twice my pay, but
    basically we put the both pays together and shared 50-50, so I made
    out.  The divorce was a real shock for me financially.  
    
    Since then I've lived with two other men and we kept our money totally
    separate.  Although both made considerably more than me to begin with,
    both had child support issues that left them with no more actual
    disposable income than I had.  Of course, even though we kept our money
    completely separate we still occasionally would buy one another
    something or treat one another to something.  But, all bills, bank
    accounts etc were totally separate.
    
    At the present time I'm not in a relationship.  If I ever were to get
    married again, I think one condition of the marriage would have to be
    that we would share all expenses on a percentage basis.  If my
    hypothetical husband were to make a *lot* more money than me I would
    have no problem having him pay the mortgage and gas bill all by
    himself.  I liked the way my ex and I combined our paychecks and shared
    the combined sum.  Afterall, we were a team and working towards the
    same goals.  (Our divorce had nothing to do with money.)  *If* I ever
    got married again, I'd want the same set-up.  I figure if I can't find
    a 2nd husband who will, at least, treat me as well as my ex-husband
    did, why bother?  :-)   (of course, I'm not sure I'd want to get
    married again anyway...freedom is nice, even when one is poor..)
    
    I think that couples who are just living together and not married,
    should keep all bank accounts separate and just decide who will pay for
    what, based on income level.  (It's either worth the price to have
    someone's companionship or it isn't....)
    
    Lorna
    

    Before we got married we decided on how to handle the money.  We had 1
    joint checking account and 2 saving/checking accounts.  We actually
    made the same amount but he would many hours of overtime. Any amount
    over the set amount was kept by that person... I was able to put the
    down payment on our house from my overtime money.  Those were the good
    ole days...

my mother has always been independent - VERY independent - and her solution
to the money issue over the 40 years of her marriage to my father was:

	1 private bank account for each.  1 joint account for necessary
	expenses and 1 joint savings account for "fun"....a joint retirement
	account that got money BEFORE the fun account did.

Each person had their paychecks deposited to their own account.  Money was
moved from the private accounts to the necessity and retirement accounts, and
if available, to the fun account.

Nothing was spent from any joint account without discussion and agreement.
Mom spent what she wanted to, when she wanted to, without input from Dad
from her private account.  And vice versa.

When they were young and poor, the private accounts might only have $15.00
in them after the necessities were covered...but that $15.00 was HERS and
she controlled it.

Then, they both sat down and worked up the agreement of what percentages
of each paycheck would go where...and they stuck to it throughout their
marriage.  The second discussion on percentages going where came when
Dad retired.

I cannot remember an argument about what money existed or who bought what
ever occurring in my home.  Lots of other stuff was fodder for discussion,
but not money.