Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    WARNING!  Non-supportive reply follows...
    
    
    If you refuse to be friends this woman until you get an apology, you're
    the one being petty.
    
    Either you want a friendship with her, or you don't.  If you don't, be
    frank - tell her that you don't consider her a friend after what she
    did and you dont like her overtures.  If you do, start working on
    rebuilding the trust and caring and don't hang up waiting for the words
    "I'm sorry."
    
    No one has any reason to feel sorry for feeling different about
    someone, or telling them when they do.
    
    D!

I'm sure this is a stupid question, but have you told her how you feel? I know
I have a tendency to hold a grudge and  the other person *truely* does not
have a clue what the problem is.

Have you talked over the problems you've had in the past with her? There is an
old saying, something like "never attribute to malice that which can be
attributed to ignorance". It's so true... try talking...

dee

    A response from the anonymous basenoter....
    
    -Jody
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    re: .1
    
    Guess I wasn't expecting to be thought of as the villain in this
    situation. I'm not quite sure I understand your philosophy that "No one
    has any reason to feel sorry for feeling different  about someone or
    telling them when they do" I interpret that as saying that if you and I
    were friends, you wouldn't owe me an explanation for deciding that I
    should no longer be part of your life.  I guess that would make you
    pretty irresponsible, wouldn't it?

    But I do appreciate your frankness, and did think of it as supportive
    albeit a bit of a slap in the face!  Sometimes people need to be
    brought away from a  self-imposed "pity party", but, GOD, this HURTS.

    No more salt, please.

    
    If I were you I'd try harder to talk with her about it.  Pick an
    uncharged time when you can spend some time talking in private, perhaps
    during a "breather" on a relaxing holiday or somesuch.
    
    Spell it out, explain how you feel, ask what happened.  Remember that
    she may not respond, she may apologize, she may put up walls, she may
    decide to gloss over the past.  You cannot control her feelings, and
    she should not have to apologize for having them.  In fact, she does
    not OWE you anything (in that D! is right), although you seem to NEED
    an explanation/closure on what happened.
    
    If someone came up to me a point-blank asked why a relationship had
    changed between us I'd try to be honest, and if possible preface it
    with "this may hurt but"....
    
    I'm trying to think of people in the past who I have had varying
    relationships with (like some BIG change in how we interacted).  Most
    often, if they were "close" friends, there was some REASON why it
    changed.  Sometimes their demands on me grew too great and my response
    was to withdraw.  Sometimes they changed somehow (got a new religion, a
    new way of relating, new friends, moved away) and that created
    "difference" between us that hadn't been there before.  But there was
    generally something I could put my finger on.
    
    If you can go to her in an uncharged situation, and with as little
    "blame" as possible in your voice simply ask for an explanation, maybe
    she could give you one.  Beware, the answer may be "I don't like you
    anymore" or something that may include some pain, but if the closure of
    the matter is worth it for you, that may be a sudden sting which
    overcomes a long-drawn-out smaller hurt.  
    
    I have for the past few months been trying to "let go" of a situation
    where a friend promised to spend a weekend with me and then didn't - no
    reason, no explanation, no apology, just didn't show up.  I sent a
    letter saying "why, that's all I want to know is why, I don't wnt to
    hold a grudge" and still got no response.  I have heard through the
    grapevine that an explanation is forthcoming but I won't hold my
    breath.  If I ever see them again, I'll ask for an explanation in
    person, but I *need* that to clear the air - I could not dance
    delicately around the issue because it is a snag in our friendship (in
    my mind).  
    
    -Jody
    

one caveat -- a first-time new mom is likely to be very wrapped up in her baby,
who after all is completely dependent at this point.  And as a first-time new
mom, she is likely to be pretty strung out, what with not knowing how to do the
mom trip very well and requiring herself to do it PERFECTLY, of course.
(This was my experience, Sara says with a wry smile.)  And possibly sleep-
deprived.

I bring this up only to point out that she may, for reasons unrelated to her
relationship to you, have less energy and patience and resourcefulness to put
into any discussion you may have with her now.  And that could color her
response.  Not a reason not to talk, just something to bear in mind.

    Another response from the basenoter...
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I wrote her a note last September saying that I would like to get
    together and talk but would leave it up to her to decide when.  She
    didn't respond.  But I saw her a couple of weeks after she would've
    received the letter.  She was  polite and friendly but said nothing
    about the letter.  She did not make any mention of it at all.

    Think I'd get the message?  You're right, Jody.  I do need closure but
    do not know how to get it.  Guess I am going to have to be downright
    direct, huh?  Get her on the phone.  Well, I just don't know.  I need
    to explore the options.  

    Her sister and I are good friends.  We have never discussed the
    situation.  I wonder what they talked about.  I have toyed with the
    idea of talking with her sister about all of it.  They are close.  I
    just don't want to create any more stress about it.  I don't think
    turning a "deaf" ear to this situation is  working for me any longer.

    About "owing"...I believe that she does owe me an explanation!  I
    certainly do. For all the things I did for her, for as much as I loved
    her, FOR ALL THAT I PROBABLY STILL WOULD DO, she owes me an
    explanation.  I believe that people are responsible for their actions.  

    I have agonized about this for far too long.  I want it to end.

    Jody, the "friend" that you described about the weekend visit reminds
    me so much of my "friend".  Don't you feel that she "owes" you an
    explanation?  What can these people be thinking?  Maybe we should start
    a topic...

		Did you ever dump a friend???!!!

re: .6
    
>    Think I'd get the message?  You're right, Jody.  I do need closure but
>    do not know how to get it.  Guess I am going to have to be downright
>    direct, huh?  Get her on the phone.  Well, I just don't know.  I need
>    to explore the options.  
    
    If you need resolution, you may HAVE to be direct and press the issue. 
    The answer may not be what you want, and she may get unpleasant or
    surly or any number of things - she may apologize, but you WILL
    probably get an answer if you force the issue.  Question is, is what
    niceness you have with her now worth your insecurity and angst?  You
    might lose that niceness if you force the issue.
    
>    About "owing"...I believe that she does owe me an explanation!  I
>    I have agonized about this for far too long.  I want it to end.
    
    Then I guess you'll have to think about forcing her hand - but please
    take into consideration all the various outcomes of the situation. 
    Please realize that you may risk losing what little pleasantry you have
    now.  However, if you do manage to connect with her and communicate
    your desire to be friends again, she may wish that too.  It's so hard
    to see what will happen, there are so many possible outcomes....

>    Jody, the "friend" that you described about the weekend visit reminds
>    me so much of my "friend".  Don't you feel that she "owes" you an
>    explanation? 
    
    Yes, and I am going to ask point-blank next time I run into them!

>		Did you ever dump a friend???!!!

    I don't think I've ever "dumped" a friend, I have found people who were
    unhealthy for me (caused me to have bad feelings, suggested I do
    unhealthy things emotionally, etc.) and created distance from them.
    
    One thing that crossed my mind is this person might be in some form of
    denial.  If you sent them the letter, they did not acknowledge it, and
    then were light and airy and fluff next time you saw them sounds like
    they don't *want* to know there's a problem, or may not want to
    acknowledge to themselves that they have hurt you.  One thing that may
    happen is they might (if they feel guilty enough) say "okay lets be
    friends" and then have it only be a surface friendship or a
    fair-weather friendship, to assuage their guilt and say they've tried
    may be all they want.
    
    I'm ofcourse ascribing a jillion motives to someone Idon't even know,
    but I'm trying to cover all the bases from my experience.....
    
    apologies for any inaccuracies
    
    -Jody

    
    Its not comfortable for me to share my experience on this subject here,
    but in general, sometimes you discover that a friendship doesn't work
    for you, and there are no easy ways to deal with being on either end of
    the situation.
    
    I'm the type of person who hates confrontation, so I can understand
    that you would think that sending a letter is a huge step. But then, I
    don't open letters I don't want to read. Your own unwillingness to be
    direct and confrontational, in my mind, may be causing most of your
    problems. In part because you could have put it on the table when it
    happened instead of now. You're suffering because of the delay; she
    isn't.
    
    One of the things that I sense is that you really don't like this
    person right now, but there is an attachment to how things were,
    complicated by her being a part of your family that may make you want
    to re-establish the friendship when in fact she's not the friend you
    want. Its okay to want friendships, but its also okay to not want to be
    friends with various people.  
    
    I had a friend in high school whom I fell out with. And 5 years later,
    I tried to reestablish the friendship for old times sake. I didn't even
    try to clear up the misunderstandings. She avoided me; I dropped it. I
    was doing it because it seemed like the "right" thing to do, but not
    because I really felt that I would like her as a person. And when she
    didn't respond, I felt I'd done the "noble" thing, and my conscience
    was clear. 
    
    Give some thought to what value a friendship with this person really
    has. Is it worth pursuing? Or does it just seem like the proper thing
    to do? And is that enough of a reason? Some people would not be
    comfortable if they didn't do "what's proper", and if you're like that,
    telling you to be selfish may not help. So, if you need to be "proper",
    then you must be direct.
    
    Above all, remember that every minute that you delay, it gnaws at you,
    not her. So, whatever you do, try do it for yourself.

    More from the basenoter.
    
    -Jody
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    ....more fuel to think about...

    Her husband almost died from a heart attack.  No drugs were involved,
    young guy, "flukey" thing.  I called to COMFORT her.  We talked.  I
    tried to give her strength.  She said that she didn't want to get in
    touch with me after I had my miscarriages (2) because she thought it
    might "upset" me.  

    It really took a lot to call her.

    You know what?  I don't even know what I want from this relationship. 
    Actually, what I want is for it to stop bothering me.  

    That would be my main goal at this point.

    >You know what?  I don't even know what I want from this relationship. 
    >Actually, what I want is for it to stop bothering me.  
    
    You might want to consider counselling.
    
    (After all, your stated goal is to change how *you* feel, not to affect
    the situation.)
    
    D!

    "I MUST DO SOMETHING GETS MORE DONE THAN SOMETHING MUST BE DONE"!!!!
    
    This is my philosophy and when used along with the NO ONE IS A MIND
    READER... It is clear to me that the ball is in your court and you
    should either terminate the relationship or build on it.  Either
    decision is acceptable;  as an adult you have the right to choose your
    friends, and to terminate them.  On the other hand remember this you
    have some choice in friends but you nwever have any choice with
    relatives.  
    
    Asking your ex friend,relative, tomentor to dream up what you need is
    unfair to both you and the person aske to do the dreaming.  Chances are
    very good that neither one of you will ever get to the issue of whether
    this friendshis is worthy of saving.
    
    I have a notion that you made yourself a doormat in the relationship
    and finally grew up and resented being stepped on.  I think you
    tormentor has always been a clod and therefore is likly no even aware
    that you are having a proble with the relationship do to her actions.
    
    Talk to her and do it sooner rather than later.  It is your call, make
    it.
    
    

    I have seen some honest and frank replies here.
    
    I have not replied until now, because I guess I was afraid to
    broach it, but it is worth while. 
    
    I'll go out on a limb here.
    
    A recent friend of mine (acquaintance?) would rather leave things
    open.  Like you, base noter, she would rather stay out of the way.
    It leaves room for reconciliation if you never officially close
    anything.  Kind of like starving a plant, you just ignore it, until
    it dies- or if it lives on it's own. You still have a plant. It is,
    I imagine, a kind of "Don't burn your bridges".
    
    However, with people that still travel in the same circles as you,
    I imagine that it is very very difficult.  I always say... just
    clean house.  It is better to have it done with than to have it
    fester and get messier.  However, you can not force people to be
    straight or open.  I even heard a woman being bashed for being
    honest and open.  If that is not the type of person you wish to
    be, or if it is not the type of person you wish to be with, I
    guess you will have to let it fester.
    
    There is also the chance that neither of you really WANTS to have
    it clean and clear.  Some people make much of their life out of
    talking about the remnants of faded relationships.  There can
    be, in bad situations, an adrenaline rush from the tension of
    a tenuous relationship.  It is also good fodder for sitting around
    and singing the blues.
    
    In short, if you push for clarification, you may get it.  However,
    you may not like the resolution.  If you wanted to keep it, you may
    find that there was no real basis, and it will have to end. If you
    want to end it, you may find that there is some mutual benefit
    that is bearly out of reach but just there enough so you should
    keep it.  First, you must decide what you REALLY want from it.
    Then you should make proactive moves to get what you want.
    
    Realize though, that if you have held on to it for this long...
    You might still love/like her, and it will probably be painfull
    to resolve it in any direction.
    
    
    Good Luck,
       and if you figure it out...
           Let us know...
    I for one, could benefit greatly from it.
    
    Cindi
    
    

My general take on this situation: forget it.

Be nice and foster an attachment with the baby, if that is appropriate
for your relationship to the baby and the baby's father. You would
know best here. But classify the baby's mother as a neutral on the
family tree to whom you will be polite. 

Her conduct seems to be saying, "It's pleasant to have you around when
I'm here, but otherwise, let's not bother."

> What should I do, CALL her?

No, sigh.  She already "answered" your letter. I say "sigh" because 
there is always a sense of disappointment and loss in an unexplained 
broken friendship. 

If she regularly approaches you in an extremely friendly manner at 
family gatherings, go ahead and shug her off. And tell her she really
hurt your feelings and you've felt angry for quite a while. 
This may clear the air inside you, but it won't make any difference to
her behavior. (In fact, she will probably be willing to "explain" to
you how wrong you are, which will really be irksome. Another hump 
under the carpet.)

No signs of spontaneous open friendship have come from her, so
I think you should just forget it. 

You have my sympathy; I "lost" a good friend several years ago and
feel some unresolved thingees too.           Meigs

    As an Adult Child of Alcoholics (ACoA), and a fairly typical one at
    that, my view of this may be somewhat skewed, but here goes.
    
    I have a real fear of abandonment.  I have been known to stay in lousy
    situations, subjecting myself to repeated rejections, for the simple
    reason that rejection is better than abandonment.  I wouldn't talk
    about the problems.  Gosh, no!  The other person might decide that I
    wasn't worth the trouble and leave me!  So, instead, I accepted
    unacceptable behaviour, I settled for second best.  
    
    That same theme seems to be what I am reading here.  You don't want a
    confrontation?  It took years for you to just get up the nerve to send
    a letter.  I know it is scary, and I know you may not want to do this,
    but you may really need to.  You seem to see her fairly often.  Walk up
    to her (take a *very* deep breath first) and tell her you want to talk
    to her.  Now.  If she tries to get out of it, be firm.  Tell her you
    are hurt - and angry - by her actions, and that you want to know what
    happened.
    
    You may find that there is no friendship.  You may feel that she
    abandons you.  On the other hand, you may just find the freedom to
    abandon the relationship yourself.
    
    
    This woman is renting space in your head; I'm sure you have better
    things to do with the space.
    
    E Grace

    
    Meigs pointed out something that I often ignore, and I wanted to
    re-emphasize it.
    
    Sometimes I have an image of an outcome in my mind, based on MY side of
    the story. Somehow, it never comes out that way, because I can't know
    the other side.
    
    If/When you have a confrontation, she may paint her side of the story
    and you won't even recognize it. But it will still be valid to her.
    That side may even hurt you more. She may speak of things that YOU did
    that you didn't realize were a problem. By the time she finishes, you
    may be so defensive that you've forgotten that according to you, SHE is
    at fault. YOU may even end up apologizing. And if that happens, I
    guarantee, you'll feel worse when you look back at it.
    
    So, be careful of your expectations, since they may not be met, and
    approach a confrontation with the objective of stating your mind, since
    that's ALL you can really do.  Getting her to see your side is a bonus
    that you may not ever get. You need to be prepared for the possibility.
    
    At any rate, that's advice I should be taking...

    More from the basenoter.
    
    -Jody
    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I have read each response with mixed emotions.  Possibly this is coming
    to the surface recently because of "that-time-of-the-month"!  When my
    emotions get shakey ANYWAY.  But sometimes I feel that I think my best
    when I allow myself to feel such intense thoughts...

    I think that at the point in my life when this happened, I was very
    "needy" of her.  I think that I just thought that she was the be all
    and end all and could do NO wrong.  I think that she may have felt that
    she couldn't handle my demands to see her...I could've been too
    "clingy".  I ended up resenting her because she wouldn't make time to
    come to see me, but would make time for  others travelling the same
    distance.  People that she wanted to see.  Yet I would continue to do
    things for her...yes, a doormat.  Someone said it just right (and thank
    you).  I remember the only thing that she really said is/was that we
    couldn't be friends...right now.  As if in the future, I might again
    become valuable to her.

    Why would I even want to KNOW someone like that?!  We, as I said
    before, have had our rocky times.  There was a period of time (3 years
    THAT time) that went by and then out of the blue, she called and wanted
    me to be in her wedding!  Do you think I was?  Yes.  DoorMAT.  I wore
    this dress that looked hideous on me because I couldn't wear support. 
    I looked like an avalanche!  And that was  something that didn't
    concern her.  She still wanted the dresses.  They looked great on
    everyone else.  

    Funny, my husband once referred to her as my "rainy day friend".  And
    he has commented that she has used me in the past and had little regard
    for me at times.

    It occurs to me that this will never end, that I will have my "up"
    times and my "down" times about this because she is a member of the
    family.  It would be so much easier if I could just not see her.  Her
    father is one of my favorite uncles.  I was there a lot as a kid.  Sort
    of like my second family.  

    She once said that she would treat me like "any other cousin".  That
    was how she was trying to define our relationship.  Well, she isn't
    treating me like that now.  She is being nice and sweet and acting like
    she wants to be close again.  Or maybe to just act like nothing ever
    happened.  And that is a lie. Maybe that is why this bothers me,
    because it is just a lie.

    Re:  8
    I guess I don't really like the hold that this situation has had on me
    for far too long.  I have sent correspondence in the past and not
    received a reply.  I don't want to set myself up for a fall anymore. 
    Her husband and I are o.k.  I think of us as friends.  We laugh easily
    together.  I don't want to ruin that by offending someone that he
    loves!  And her other siblings, and her father (her mother died 14
    years ago).  This is why it is so complicated to address.  There are so
    many family members "watching".  To my intense embarrassment, I never
    knew how she explained away my absence for such a long period of time. 
    And now that I have "resurfaced", what do they think?

    Re:  10...D!
    I have had counseling about this situation.  That was a couple of years
    ago. New issues seem to always pop up.  I don't want to get counseling
    any more!  I want to deal with it on my own!  But, I think this noting
    forum will be of great comfort to me.  It already has been.  Even your
    "salty" advice  :^)  !!!  I think you DO care.  You probably just think
    I need a slap in the face.  I am interested in your opinion.  Yes, I do
    want to change the way that I feel.  I will be reading these responses
    over and over again.  There has been tremendous solace in them just
    this far.

    Re:  11
    You said it so accurately, "I have a notion that you made yourself a
    doormat in the relationship and finally grew up and resented being
    stepped on.  I think your tormentor has always been a clod and
    therefore is likely not even aware  that you are having a problem with
    the relationship due to her actions."  So,  then, the responsibility
    lies on me if I'm having the problem and she is not.   I just have to
    find the right way to do this.

    Re:  12
    I hate to admit this even to myself (and this may make me sound
    wishy-washy...) but I think I'd like to be friends with her.  I just
    don't know if I would respect myself for it!  I KNOW my mother would be
    disgusted with me, and most likely my husband.  Poor guy has heard me
    sound off about this for years.  I am tired of feeling resentment from
    this.

    One time when we were kids, she stood me up to go out with a boy.  I
    was totally devastated.  I must've been 13.  She was visiting (she
    would visit summers from away) and this was to be her last night in
    town.  I wanted to see her because she was leaving the next morning
    very early with her parents.  But she wanted to spend her last night in
    town with the boys that she'd been hanging out with.  I just remember
    feeling so lonely and sad.  And this early memory is ironic for the way
    this "relationship" has been even into our adult years. No wonder my
    mother felt as she did.  

    Re:  13
    I WOULD LOVE TO FORGET IT!!!  But she is family like I mentioned
    before.  We share the same grandmother (who is on her side!!!).  I will
    try to make it neutral as you suggest.  Because that would be the best
    way.  I have at times believed that it was neutral in my mind.  Loss
    and disappointment combined with the fact that I feel like a fool for
    my feelings about her (when my husband  found that we were
    "reconciling" when I was in her wedding, he said "ready for another
    round of abuse!!").  

    Re: 14
    Yep, I do need to do that.  But it will be a curious challenge to
    balance to all that is involved.  She LIVES in the same house as my
    uncle!  She has an apartment there.  Like I said, I got brave last
    September and invited her to my house, but there was no response.  

    I don't think I would be able to tell all these things if I couldn't be 
    anonymous.  And thank you again for all of your responses.

    Let your heart be your guide but let you head set the rules.  It is
    your responsibility to say to your cousin whaever is called for. You
    know how you feel and you know where the hurts are.  Make the call and
    set the ground ruls if they are broken give uo the relationship
    
    
    
    
    
    

Anon,

Well, here's Dr. Vick, the amateur shrink, who is now going to analyze your
problem.  I know what I'm talking about because I'm pretty screwed up myself
and have read at least two popular books on psychology in the last month.

The above introduction is included not because I'm making light of your
situation, far from it, but because you should understand how much weight
you should put on anything I say (or anyone else says in this notesfile,
whose credentials you haven't examined :^).

You are really obsessed with this relationship.  This probably means that
there are other unresolved issues in you that need work.  You said it yourself,
that the therapy brought out other issues, when you wanted to work on
resolving this relationship.  Those other issues are probably what you need
to work on.  If you resolve those, then the relationship would no longer
matter.  But if you resolve the relationship (probably an impossibility)
then you will still need to work the other issues.  You used the words
"clingy", "needy".  Would you be able to stand being the friend "right now"
of a clingy, needy, person who is jealous of time you spend with any other
person and who is somehow holding you responsible for their happiness?  Years
later if that same person started approaching you and exhibiting some of the
same behavior and showing no signs of being less needy, would you open your
arms to them, or would you stay aloof?  There is a certain paranoia in your
relating to this person.  You say the grandmother is "on her side" and you
seem to think your friend chose the dresses for the wedding just to 
embarrass you.  You seem to think that you are central in her thoughts, when
the opposite is quite probably true.  When you were younger were you looking
for love in her that you didn't receive elsewhere, or hadn't received when
you were younger?  It would take a therapist some time I think to ferret out
the causes of your obsession with this relationship.  The causes are buried
in your personal history.  Your friend may owe you an apology, but an apology 
is not going to solve anything for you.  The work that needs to be done to
make you happy is work on yourself, not work on your friend.  Working on
yourself is likely to be painful.  Working on your friend, trying to get
her to answer your question "Why did you make me unhappy?" seems the easy
way out for you, but it isn't any way out at all.  Your friend did not make
you unhappy.  Something in you made you unhappy, at least in the final
analysis.

I think you should get some more counseling.  If you didn't like the first
therapist, try another.  Talk to EAP.  I think they are great.  I also
recommend the book "Get the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix.  It is
very easy to read, and to understand, and it makes a whole lot of sense.
    
I wish you happiness.
    
				    - Vick

    Reply from the basenoter.
    
    -Jody
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Re: 18
    Just to clear a few things up...

    I realize that people will interpret what they will, but you are
    reading too deeply, I feel!  Simply stated, she has offended me and I
    feel that she owes me an apology for it.  If someone physically slapped
    me in the face with no explanation, and walked away, I believe that I
    would feel the same.  Her attitude is a "slap-in-the-face".  I didn't
    mean to apply that she chose the dresses just to "get" me.  I wrote
    about that to indicate to people a certain situation that would show
    that she had little regard for something that I considered
    embarrassing.  It wasn't important to her.

    No, I'm pretty comfortable with the way that I am.  At the time that
    this all happened, I wasn't though.  I would even go so far to say that
    I may even under stand her desire not to have anything to do with me at
    the time, however,  I  think she handled it poorly and in extreme bad
    taste.  I don't believe that  there are any other unresolved issues
    that I need to clear up.

    I am obsessed to a point with this situation.  I want resolution. I
    didn't say that the counseling (and it was more like counseling, not
    therapy which my interpretation would be from a psychotherapist)
    brought out other issues.  It is just that time has gone by and new
    issues come up.  

    You know what, Vick?  You make a terrible shrink!  You make all kinds
    of  assumptions and insinuations that you know nothing about!  I don't
    believe I'm paranoid.  I'm being pretty straightforward, I think.  Do
    you think the  following statement is paranoid?

    	At Christmas time, my grandmother gives her gifts, but not to me.

    That is just a fact.  It is something that goes wa-a-a-y back.  First
    off being that her mother was my grandmother's daugher.  My father is
    my grandmother's son.  And my grandmother feels that she is special
    because it is her daughter's child.  This is just the way it is.  She
    feels that she needs to do more for her because she no longer has a
    mother.  Should I be jealous?  Or should I try to accept it because
    there is NO WAY that will ever change.  

    And about the jealousy....yes, I was.  Because she would drop me for
    something better that came along and yet claim that I was her best
    friend.  She would confide in me, and visa-versa.

    No, I do NOT think that I am central in her thoughts.  I don't think so
    at all. In fact, I think that she doesn't think about me much at all.  

    Yes, VICK.   An apology WOULD make me feel a hell of a lot better. 
    Because then she would admit that what she had done was wrong.  I would
    like to know what she was possibly thinking when she "ejected" me from
    her life!  You don't seem to understand, possibly because you have
    never experienced such a close personal relationship, that we were
    CLOSE.  We shared everything.  We had a sort of connection that was
    cosmic.  Without sounding too off the wall, we would speak at the same
    time about the same subject.  We would think things at the same time. 
    Our opinions were similar.

    She is the one who used to say, "I hope our husbands like each other"
    even before our husbands were even "thought of".

    But thank you for your reply.  If anything, it caused me to provide a
    bit more information for people to think about.  I can't stress the
    fact that I am really trying to come to a right resolution in this.  I
    don't agree with getting more counseling at this point.  Because I
    think I have the ability to do this on my own.  This notefile is very
    helpful.

>    You know what, Vick?  You make a terrible shrink!  
    
    Actually, I told my shrink about some advice I gave to someone else and
    he said I ought to be charging for it.  :^)  But I will be the first to
    admit that I had little to go on in my "analysis", not only in
    training, but in information about you.  That's why I put in the
    disclaimer.  I apologize if I offended.
    
    However...  Nothing in your rebuttal would make me alter my thoughts
    much about this situation.  You were hurt.  You still feel hurt.
    Your friend doesn't seem to care about you enough to be a good 
    candidate for helping you remove that hurt.  In fact, she continues
    to do things that hurt you.  There are other ways of dealing with the 
    hurt, but it will probably require some help.  You try to minimize this
    issue by simplifying it to an apology.  I think there is some deeper
    issue beneath the surface.  Are you going to feel neutral about this
    person after the apology?  Are the hurtful things she does going to
    continue to cause you pain?  Are you expecting her to become your 
    close friend again after the apology or at least stop doing hurtful
    things?  Are you still needy of her friendship?  If so, why?  Aren't there
    better people around to give you the support and love you need?  If
    not, shouldn't you read a book with a title like "Get the Love You
    Want"???  :^)  If you get this person to explain "why" she did what she
    did, do you expect her answer to be other than self-serving?  Are you
    going to believe her answer?  Are you going to let her answer hurt you
    even more?  I'm having a hard time grasping how this apology is going
    to really provide much closure for you.  It's almost like your
    expectations for the apology are as unrealistic as were your
    expectations of the relationship in the first place.  Your friend
    sounds like she has her own problems.  Why let her problems make you
    unhappy?
    
    And, yes, I have had this kind of obsessive relationship before. 
    Phrases like "twin souls", "cosmic connectedness", "eternal love",
    "amazing coincidences" peppered our letters to each other during
    the six months the relationship lasted.  Ah, well.  That was with
    a woman.  I also had a close friendship with a man that I thought would
    be my best friend forever and thought he understood me better than
    anyone else.  I was VERY needy of his friendship.  I didn't understand 
    why he stopped writing.  He didn't even have the courtesy of telling me
    "I can't be your friend right now."  I'm probably going to see him again 
    soon for the first time in 14 years.  I'm not going to ask for an 
    explanation or an apology.  I'm curious about what went on in his mind 
    (though not very).  I'm much more curious about what his life is like
    now; if he's still married, if he has any children, etc.  I can now
    think of all kinds of possible reasons why the friendship ended.  But I 
    don't think it makes much difference which one's are the right ones.  The 
    friendship ended, that's all.  
    
    Well, best wishes, honestly.  I do care.
    
    					- Vick

    
    Basenoter - 
    
    I must admit from what I've read here I tend to agree with Vick.  Your
    notes seem to have an almost hysterical tone to them sometimes, you
    really do seem to be obsessed with this relationship, and I also am
    having difficulty trying to determine what a belated apology would do
    for you now.  I don't think that all these years of hurting yourself by
    stewing on the situation will just melt away.
    
    From what I understand she's your cousin.  And you were very friendly
    when you were younger, as cousins often are.  However, people do change
    as they get older, their interests start to differ, and, sad though it
    is, many childhood/teenage friends just drift apart.  When you say she
    "ejected" you from her life, do you mean she just walked up to you one
    day and out of the blue said "I don't want to be your friend any more
    so don't bother calling".  Or was it just that she started to get other
    interests, found less time for you and gradually more or less ceased
    contact because she had other things to occupy herself?  The latter
    really is typical of friendships between young people.  I know, I've
    been there.  I'm also lucky enough to have a good friend who I've known
    since we were at school - once upon a time we saw each other every day,
    shared all our secrets, went everywhere together as well.  But now
    we're older and she lives is at college in another part of the country
    .. we only get to see each other at holidays but that doesn't mean
    she's any less of a friend.
    
    I think perhaps you're expecting too much of this friendship?  If it
    really bothers you that much, ask her outright.  It's silly to go on
    for years torturing yourself if you can't pluck up the courage to ask
    her.  Sorry if it sounds harsh because I really am trying to be
    supportive, but IMO writing a letter to tell her your feelings is a bit
    of a mistake.  For a start, it implies that you don't have the courage 
    to ask her directly - after all, you didn't mention the letter when you
    next saw her either, did you?  You could have said "Hey, did you get my
    letter?" and left it to her after that - but as far as I can tell you
    kept silent.  Secondly, as far as she's concerned a letter puts the
    onus on her.  If she doesn't want to talk about it she's not going to
    mention the letter.  If you ask her face to face it's a little more
    difficult for her to back out.
    
    As mentioned in several other notes, if you do ask her outright you may
    get a reply that is hurtful to you, but that's the risk you take.  I
    don't know what this woman has done to you in the past, but a few notes
    back you said that she owed you an apology for "all that you probably
    still would do" for her, which sounds like you're still pretty keen to
    have her as a friend.  So why not let bygones be bygones?
    
    Sam
    

    
    Picking up on something .21 said:
    
    It makes me furious to get letters stating I've done something
    wrong by a person (I don't know what was in your letter, so I'm
    not saying your letter was like this) when they should have the
    guts to stand in front of me and tell me it.  *Especially* if
    it's unpleasant!
    
    Example from my life: Ten years ago, I lived in a group house with
    3 other singles.  I was doing "A" which person X didn't like.  Person
    X leaves a note on my door yelling at me "NOT TO DO A ANYMORE".
    What do you think happened?  I WAS FURIOUS at X for not telling me
    to my face, so I ignored her.  She was a coward and I (at the time)
    would not respect a coward's wishes when she "dumped" on me without
    a chance.
    

    Re .22: HOT BUTTON ALERT...
    
    Some of us _are_ "cowards" about face-to-face confrontations, for a
    reason. I have a tendency to cry when I'm tense, and to become
    incoherent when I cry, which results in me being unable to tell the
    person what's wrong. (I've got some embarrassing memories of myself
    screaming at my mother - it was about something relatively trivial, but
    screaming was the only way I could get the words through the tears.) If
    I'm to express it at all, it has to be written. [I'd try to write
    something tactful rather than posting "CUT IT OUT!" on a door, though.]
    A few people I've known have had the ability to listen to me through a
    crying fit without making me feel like either a fool or an object of
    pity, but it's a rare talent.
    
    Maybe next time, instead of ignoring the note, you could either
    confront the person yourself or return a note saying "I don't accept
    solicitation by mail"? I mean, by ignoring it, *both* of you wound
    up mad...
    
    -b

    Thank you -b. I too have a difficult time with face-to-face
    confrontations and given a choice, would choose to write. Also while
    writing, I can edit myself and rewrite everything. But what's said can
    not be unsaid. I can do the 'that's not what I really meant' routine.
    But the damage is usually done.
    
    manisha

    
    Another reply from the basenoter.
    
    -Jody
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Re:  21
    
    The day before I wrote the basenote, there was an event that I went to
    and she was there so it triggered everything...again.  I didn't like
    that that happened. It just did.  It is maddening to me and I used to
    do a lot of journal writing and would find that it would ease the
    stress.  I decided to write here in  notes as anonymous so that I could
    "tell all".  Some of you people are brave out there bearing your souls
    as you do!  I would feel so naked!

    At any rate, you have a lot of accurate assumptions.  Yes, yes, I know
    people change over the years.  However, I have two other girlfriends
    that I've known since grammar school.  We are very close.  So, it is
    possible.  

    Yes, I'm glad you got the point when I said "ejected".  That is
    basically what she did.  She said that she no longer wanted to see me
    or hear from me.  She did not give a reason.  I tried and tried to get
    her to tell me.  Finally, I got the point, but the resentment has
    always been there.  So there was no communication from us for a period
    of time...a year or so.  Then there was the family reunion.  That is
    when she wrapped her arms around me and hugged me! Why the hell
    shouldn't I be confused!  

    I most likely will not ever write her another letter.  Cause you know
    what? You never know who reads them!  If you say it, it can be told,
    but maybe not word for word.  I have written letters in the past to her
    that I wished to God I hadn't....and just about my feelings that ended
    up getting trashed by her not responding at all.  What nerve.  At least
    I deserved a response.  

    And everyone in the family oogles over her because they only know her
    as a  "sun-shiney" person.  Happy go-lucky.  It looks like everything
    is fine with her.  Family members know that we used to be close.  What
    do they think?!  She is, or acts fine with it the way it is.  So if I
    indicate in some way that there is a problem, it looks like it's my
    fault.  Right?!

    I would love to get her alone to talk about it but I'm not about to do
    it in front of other people.  

    You know, through all of this, if this was someone else "doing" this to
    me, I can hear her tell me,

	"Don't let them treat you like that!  You're better than that"

    If I started up a friendship with her again, wouldn't that make me a
    fool?  And how could I possibly trust the friendship?  I feel that I
    really do miss her, but I can't be a doormat anymore.  I AM better than
    that.

    You said, why not let bygones be bygones...
    
    That is the way I always let it be in the past.  I always let her "get
    away with s*i%$-ing" on me.  I'm just tired of it.  But it ends up only
    punishing me. God, if I COULD just forgive her.  I would be free of all
    of this.  I have tried to decide how to forgive her, but maybe it is
    myself that I should forgive for letting someone abuse me as she did.  

    It is such a mess.  I think eventually what will happen is that we will
    get  together to talk...on my turf.  So she is on MY turf.  

    As I said before, it is like a slap in the face.  Then she comes back
    and acts like nothing ever happened.

    Sam, how could I respect myself if I was to make a friendship with her
    again!!!  

...............................................................................

    
    I wrote the above on Friday and now it is Tuesday.

    Over the week end, her sister and I got together and I feel a lot
    better about the situation.  I feel close to her sister and felt that
    it was always sort of something between us that wasn't comfortable.  I
    made it clear that I didn't want her to tell me anything that was told
    to her in confidence.  But she didn't know why it all happened in the
    beginning either!  At least it sort of answers the question of what she
    told people about it - nothing!  Cause if she didn't tell her sister,
    to whom she is very close, she wouldn't tell anyone.  I do feel better. 
    I feel stronger.  Her sister listened with compassion.  The only
    negative thing that I said is, "I think your sister is dense!"

A few comments.

Yes, Vick plunged a little more deeply into your assumed psychology
than could be justified, but I think his overall point is true --
the relationship has more importance to you than it appears to many of
us that it should.

I think (I too read a few psych books this month!, Vick, ya wanna
go into biz) you said a few notes back that you want to resolve this
situation yourself.  It might be beneficial if you could take
a pause from thinking about the situation and instead think about
why it is important to you.

>   I most likely will not ever write her another letter.  
Good! Great! Don't!

>    It is such a mess.  I think eventually what will happen is that we will
>    get  together to talk...

Well, it is a bit of a mess. The thoughts here are going in circles:

  "I want to tell her how I feel. <------------.
  "I want her to apologize to me.              ^
  "I want to know why she left.                |
  "I want her us to be on good terms again.    |
  "I know we were immensely close.             |
  "She rejects me but fails to say why.        |
  "This makes me angry and hurt. -------------->

>    But she didn't know why it all happened in the
>    beginning either!  At least it sort of answers the question of what she
>    told people about it - nothing!  

This means either the sister prefers not to tell you, or the
ex-friend is ashamed of the reason. Or both.

I once dumped a wonderfully good friend for an awful reason. I wanted
to run with a group that disliked her. It was a choice between Kathy 
and the group. I choose the group. Lousy? Yes. Would I ever tell 
Kathy? No. She asked me about it several times and I made some very
general polite noises. I would never have dreamt of telling her why,
even tho she actually knew why ... I think she wanted me to admit
how small I had been.)

>"I think your sister is dense!"

Why? I see no evidence of density on your ex-friends's part. Mean 
spiritedness, selfishness, self-centeredness ... but no denseness.

Here's one solution.  And this is really lousy, but help 
yourself to some unkindness too:  Put yourself into a situation where 
you are posed to do a big favor for this person. Say, like babysit
on New Year's or drive her to the ball of the year. 

Then don't.  No warning.  No explanation. Just don't show up. Don't do
it.  When asked why, make some general polite noises to the affect
that she mis-understood. You will probably feel much better.

It amazes me I pose that ^^^ but ... well, consider it anyway.
See how considering it makes you feel.

    Well I was with -.1, (whose first name did not appear in the note)
    until the end.  I don't think the "revenge is sweet" approach is a very
    good one to take.  Anon needs to learn how to feel good about herself
    without feeling she needs other people (like her erstwhile "friend") to
    give her her sense of being okay.  Doing something nasty to someone
    else hardly seems a good way to build one's self-esteem.  
    
    					- Vick

Perhaps Meig's suggestion could first of all be considered a thought 
experiment rather than a prescription for revenge, Vick.  She did say
"See how considering it makes you feel."

DougO

    Okay, I admit I read it fast.  But after reading it slowly I'm still
    not sure what was meant.
    					- Vick

I meant that Basenoter should set her friend up for a fall.  It's a
nasty thing to do, and frankly, I'm still surprised I said it. I would
not have said it a few years ago.  DougO said it could be regarded as a
thought experiment, which it could. 

Part of being able to defend yourself is the ability to lash out, to
strike back.  It seems to me Basenoter has an inhibition towards
striking back. Many of us do. I think it is an inhibition worth
overcoming.  

Whether one actually does strike or not strike should be a matter of
choice, conviction, philosophy .... not inhibition.