Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    Could it be that the Patriarchy is running scared?
    
    D.

    For years, in fact, ever since they were invented, comic strips and
    comic books have purveyed to prurient and sexist images of adolescent
    boys from 5 years old to a hundred years old. Those are the ones who
    buy them. Why else are the women portrayed as fawning helpless females
    who are good for nothing but being tied up (Bondage imagery is rampant
    in comics) and being rescued by the muscle bound and generally muscle
    headed hero. Or else women, if they show any sort of assertiveness are
    portrayed as evil bitches out to conquer the world and for the most
    part they need to be part of a group of mostly males. Most are drawn
    as impossibly proportioned. Try 42DDDDDDDDDD     12.5     38 . 
    
    This imagery will probably never be stopped as long as the companies
    make money off it. There is some lip service paid to the issues at hand
    but for the most part it's business as usual. Let's get the money buy
    giving the little boys fantsy women and heros. 
    
    Some of the women cartoonist have fought back. A personal favorite is
    Trina Robbins. She has N.O.W.'s support for some stuff and self
    publishes other stuff. I'll try and pick up some stuff that is truly or
    at least as truly as is done nowadays and bring it to the gathering.
    Perhaps some of our other comic collectors can make specific
    suggestions on what to read. Some undergrounds are good but again most
    are just masturbatory fantasies for legal age adults.
    
    PJ

	In the Seattle Times, there are about 35 comic strips run 
	each day.  Only two of those comics are written by women, 
	and one, Cathy Guisewite (sp), portrays "Cathy" as such a 
	desperate, man-chasing, spineless sap that it's a disgrace 
	to womankind.  (Although her mother is cool.)

	Carla

    So far the discussion has been about "comic *strips*", ie: four frame
    newspaper funnies.  Sexism is even *more* rampant in comic books, what
    with helpless damsels in distress, wearing painted-on bikinis over
    their huge, gravity-free breasts.
    
    However, there is hope!  For a great comic book with an intelligent,
    feeling, and unconventionally beautiful heroine, check out the
    "Grendel" series.  Or for a darker vision, try "Give me Liberty".
    
    And of course, there's always "Love and Rockets".
    
    D!

    Just a quick statment. Yeah Love and Rockets. This is true art. We seem
    to very much agree on our ideas in comics, D. I still think Trina
    Robbins is great stuff. She tells it like it is and sometimes like it
    should be but isn't. 
    
    PJ

    Are you people trying to tell me that these women are *not* the ones I
    should be trying my very pea-brained best to emulate?!
    
    Sigh.  Time to start over, I guess.
    
    E Grace

    E, if you mean the balloon chested airheads, then I know you better.
    If you mean the hardworking women who are through humor and very
    talented art abilities then you do your best every day and are
    succeeding. 
    
    BTW, it is so very good to have youu back here Hug Goddess.
    
    PJ

    No, I meant the baloon chested airheads.  (*8  
    
    Though anyone who has seen me knows that I don't qualify!
    
    
    
    Thanks, PJ.
    
    E Grace

    re .3, Carla, oh, I don't see Cathy that way at all!!!  I love that
    comic strip (even though I can't readily relate to the ones about
    dieting)!  I see Cathy as more of a commentary on the way things *are*
    rather than the way they *should* be and, as such, find it very
    amusing.  I have all the collections of Cathy cartoons in my bookcase
    sitting beside my feminist poetry books.
    
    Lorna
    

    I lived a heterosexual lifestyle for many, many years, so it's 
    not like I'm in a parallel universe and can't relate to any of
    Cathy's perspective.  I'm convinced (and so is my Mom) that her 
    mother is based on my own.  Her relationship with her puppy 
    mirrors mine.  What pushes my buttons is her flaming codependent 
    relationship with Irving, and all men she dates, that bugs me, 
    and that's because I am recovering from codependency myself.

    As for telling me I'm "condemning the rest of us young het
    women", Lauren, is, in my opinion, out of line.  I certainly 
    am not condemning any living human being for anything.

    Carla

    re.0

    �Now, this all looked innocent and seriously feministic until I stopped
    �to notice the way in which it is presented.  Cathy is witlessly
    �hopeless, gullibly eating up and spewing out the cant from the book. 
    �The use of the Goddess appears a clear attempt to heap ridicule on
    �women for being so dumb.

	I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but I have the
	feeling that there are lots of women who do what you think
	Cathy is doing just to be accepted by other women.

                                   L.J.

    Carla,
    
    calling Cathy a 'desperate, man-chasing, spineless sap' with out
    explaining that it is her codependant behavior that hits a hot
    button with you (as you did in the second message) makes it easy
    to think you are condeming her and by reflection other young women 
    like her.
    
    Thanks for explaining what you meant. This medium is often a difficult
    one and people take things much more strongly than the author intended.
    I think that is true on both sides for you and for 'ren.
    
    Bonnie

    L.J.
    
    I think you could be right. Among the younger women around me I see
    this in particular. They tend to comment on each other's hair, and
    clothes etc. The ostensible object may be to 'get a man' but the
    actual object may well be to live up to the 'group' standars of dress,
    etc.
    
    May I go on to add in re the previous, that much as I love the strip
    Cathy the 'one note joke' about her relationship with Irving does
    get tiring. I wish that Cathy Gustlewaite (sp) would let her character
    grow a bit in that direction, but perhaps she can't and still get
    published.
    
    Finally my favorite strip of all times is drawn by a woman, "For Better
    or For Worse". It is so true to what it is like to be a working wife
    and mother today. 
    
    Bonnie

my favorite comics are "For Better Or Worse", the one Bonnie mentioned; and
"Family Circus".

FBoW seems to accurately reflect many of my experiences; the behavior of the
kids; the woman's astounded and dismayed reaction to being pregnant again after
having just got back the use of her legs, and her acceptance of it; how she and
her husband go about figuring out how to live and share (the work, the fun) of
being a couple and of raising kids.

My favorite Family Circus cartoon is up on my cube wall.  In the first frame,
the dad sees two of his kids in a tree, about 5' up, and says to them, "You guys
better not let Mommy see you playing in that tree!"  In the second frame, you
see Mommy poking her head out of the branches higher up, saying "Why not?"

That's me!

------------------------------
but in general, comics are either cariacature (like most comedy), or social 
commentary (ala Pogo).  I take each as what it is.

Sara

    Who does Sally Forth?
    That is a strip that has a positive role model of a working mom, 
    her working husband, and child.
    
    Cindi

    
    author of sally forth is a myn..
           
    mebbe wymmin should do their own comix instead of whine about the
    lack...

    I am sorry- myn?
    A new acronym? (Have I missed another one?)
    
    In any case.... Sally Forth, even though done by a man???, is a comic where
    the people are reasonably proportioned- physically, emotionally,
    familialy, and career wise.
    
    The name itself took me a while to grasp-  
    But it is Sally Forth, as in to advance... and as a comic, it
    does seem relatively advanced.
    
    Also, as a young teen, I hit upon Doones man's work.
    There are also reasonable depictions of women, feminists, and
    the goal/independance challenged ( aka "air heads").
    They also handle careers, divorces, child birth, yuppie lives,
    minorities, and wars.
    
    Cindi

    
    Carla, I deleted my note since it offends you. But you definitely hit
    my hot button. I eat up Cathy precisely because her relationship with
    Irving mirrored mine with a Digital employee who shall remain nameless.
    
    So, in calling her a sap, I feel the label must apply to me as well.
    
    I'm not in that relationship anymore but I don't feel as though they
    are so easy not to get caught up in when you're in love with an Irving
    type. I guess I figure you'll never have to deal with the Irving's of
    the world and I'm envious of your freedom from them.
    
    Since this is a pretty sensitive and painful subject to me, I'm just
    going to leave it alone.

I'm fond of the current Doonesbury treatment of Boopsie, the blond 
movie actress bombshell whos always dated BD.  Her personality has 
developed quite a bit from the airhead she used to be drawn as, and 
for BD the former quarterback, home from the Gulf, the accumulated 
changes have suddenly become very noticeable.  He's facing a much
more self-assured and competent woman than the one he thought he knew.
(But for some reason, she still likes him.  that's the part I don't get.)

DougO

    I agree with you, DougO, about Boopsie, but haven't you noticed the
    reaction to her newfound brain?  Sid says, "Frankly, it's not very
    attractive".  And BD brushes off the contract she negotiated with a
    stern, "Remember, you're talent and I'm management".
    
    It definitely mirrors real life in that women are not expected to be in
    control of their lives and that the men in their lives will indeed let
    them know that when they overstep those boundaries.  Her choices now are 
    to back down or dump BD and find another agent.  In short, she'll have to 
    reject the very life she's known in order to be herself.  Sucks, doesn't 
    it?  I assume Garry doesn't want to get into the gritty reality of women's 
    lives and so instead he has Boopsie still innocently willing to care for 
    BD and work with Sid.  But if he keeps her enlightened, she can't stay 
    there for long with men like that.
    
    Like Cathy Guisweite, (how *do* you spell that name?), I think
    Trudeau is portraying life as it is, in a bright and obvious light, as
    a way of showing how far it is from life as it should be.  I think the
    Cathy comics are precious and it's always my hope that women don't
    commiserate with her but instead learn to identify in themselves and
    reject Cathy's often sad way of thinking.  (Except for the swimsuit
    makers and the entire "fashion" industry - that's right on!)
    
    It's not easy to reject, though, because like Boopsie, most of our current 
    lives and relationships are the result of a lifetime of learning to think 
    that way, (co-dependently, in desperate need of the approval of as many 
    men as possible), and to change means changing the basis of those relation-
    ships and quite possibly losing them. 
    
    It's better to have never lived a lie in the first place but how many 
    little children can separate their real selves from lies?  Women are 
    usually adults by the time they realize the charade must end because they 
    want a little happiness, too.  And this is the push-pull in Cathy's life, 
    (and Charlene's), and the whole basis of the strip.  It's the juncture
    Boopsie's at.  Will she cave in in order to keep BD?  Or will she dump
    him in order to keep herself?  Why would BD want a woman who "caves
    in"?  Do men identify with his plight - with him losing a fun little
    bimbo and instead having to endure a thinking woman?  She should be
    aging soon, anyway, so perhaps BD will just find a new bim to blindly
    adore him.  It shouldn't be difficult in Malibu.
    
    As for why don't women just write their own comics - this is a common
    misconception men have, that women are just sitting back and "whining".
    My guess is the author of that reply simply has no idea that women are
    painting, inventing, discovering, creating, writing, drawing and more
    with the same frequency men, (excuse me, myn), are.  As a myn, you get
    to be blissfully shielded from the knowledge that the products of
    women's efforts are often rejected because the "femaleness" behind them 
    makes them seem inferior.  Countless studies have shown that people
    place a higher value on something when they believe a man was behind
    it.  I assume newspaper editors don't come from some other planet.
    
    Sandy
                       
                  

    Did we not mention Sylvia.  It is another comic, with some
    positive female presentations.
    (ie. none of the super heros are men.)
    
    I love it when she mixes the 3 personalities of Susan.
    It shows how difficult the multple roles of women can
    be when they have to interact with each other.
    
    Cindi

well, not to inject reality or anything :-) but...  there is an alternative for
Boopsie (first, she should reclaim her real name!!!) but it it's probably the
hardest one for her, and for Trudeau to pull off convincingly.

She could stay where she is, and stick to her guns, and BD and Sid could change.

I know it can happen.  It did in my own family.  My mom changed my dad.  It
wasn't easy, it involved three years of hard fighting.  Originally she didn't
think it was worth it, but HE did, and refused to give up, or give her up.  It
was worth it to him so he changed.  And that changed her outlook enough that
she came to be willing to give him the chance.

Feminism is primarily, but not *only*, about changing women's perceptions of
themselves!  Sometimes it can help men grow, too.

So, here's my prediction: BD will be dragged, kicking and screaming (sotospeak),
into acceptance of a new equilibrium between himself and Boopsie.  Sid will have
to go, though.

Sara

Gee, I thought that Zippy cartoon was a hilarious take-off, that it
touched on some gay culture and was definitely feminist. It was drawn
in the style of the tee shirts that say "Oh no! I forgot to have 
children!". Was it Roy Lichtenstein who popularlized that style a
couple of decades ago?

Doonesbury has always had strong women. How about Joanie Caucus who
put her kid in day care and went to lawschool and ended up working
for that female senator.


I agree that on the whole, though, most comics are horribly sexist.
But I like them anyways.


Liz

    I hope so too, Sara, I just didn't think Trudeau would consider that
    possibility.  Not because he isn't a "sensitive 90s kinda guy", but
    because his strip is geared to men and they generally aren't.  He
    could do it, but like Miss Boopstein, (good point about her name! What
    is her first name, anyway?), he too would be changing the basis of his 
    relationship, (with his readers), and may even lose them.  Men who 
    understand and symapthize with women eventually have to face other men 
    and make the same choices women do - back down or stand firm and take 
    the risks.  Trudeau's predominantly male readership might not take too
    kindly to their hero backing down to what they've come to see as "a cute
    little plaything gone bad".
    
    S.

    Oh, I disagree!  I don't think Trudeau (sp?) will tone down his strip
    for "the masses".  I may be blindly naive, but I really think he has a
    personal interest in *really* addressing the issues, and he is popular
    enough that he can do so without worrying about whether he'll lose
    readership!  Doonesbury fans, at least the hard-core lasting ones,
    already expect Trudeau to push the edge.  I don't think he'd lose many
    by making BD "cave in" to Boopsie.
    
    I have really admired the way he has handled some contraversial issues
    in the past - homelessness, drugs, divorce, clergy, AIDS, war, etc.  I
    don't think he will back down from this one...
    
    D!

    They made it from the sweet little housewife gone bad.
    
    Jonie:
    who decided to leave her husband the day after he said to his
    beer drinking being served by his wife buddies -
    
    "That's my wife, I think I'll keep her."
    
    She walked out, got on a motorcycle with some students while
    she was hitchhiking and went to live in a commune.- Definately
    a "good little woman gone bad" scenario.
    
    Jonie was allowed to grow, go to law school, live with minorities,
    and work for Lacey (Female Senator).
    
    I feel it is limited thinking to believe that Boopsie (Barbra????)
    can not do the same.
    
    In addition. I always thought the strip was geared towards PEOPLE.
    But I may have been biased.  I was a woman who did not know it was
    supposed to be geared towards men, and hence could not see that it
    was.  
    
    Cindi
    
    P.S.- I will grant, however, that his early stuff from his Yale???
    days were male centered... but he grew tremendously after that.
    Soon after his non speaking people began to be drawn with mouths,
    his women too had a voice.
    

    Well, I love comics...collect quite a few titles myself.  And yes
    the woman almost all have gorgeous faces and outrageous bods.  But,
    then again, so do all the men.
    
    And I've seen many instances where the women saved the day...in fact
    in the X-men, it's a woman who leads the team.
    
    
    
                                        L.J.

    Boopsie's first name is Barbara...
    
    and is the 'new wonderwoman' still being published? I really loved
    it, and used to buy it for my daughter. It disappeared out of the
    comics racks about 3 or 4 years ago.
    
    Bonnie

    Storm- of the X-men, the leader as of my last check.
    
    Is a strong black woman. -- Points for X-men on both the minority,
    and female scales.  Also- as of last check, she was no longer
    even a mutant.  So the leader of the mutant super team is a
    Strong black African normal woman.  It can either be taken as
    the exception that proves the rule, or a sign that there is the
    possibility of change in the comic world.
    
    Also- for balanced and beautiful presentations of men and women
    in comics, Wendy and Richard Pini of the Elfquest series IMO
    do beauty and justice to both sexes, elves and trolls alike.
    
    Cindi

    Storm is still leader, but has recently regained her elemental powers.
    Still, she went an entire year without them as leader.
    
    Psylocke is also an excellent character for the X-men.
    
    Try also the Elementals, New Mutants...who at one time had co-leaders
    of a white man and an american indian woman.
    
    As for the new Wonderwoman...yes, it's still out there.  They recently
    had an incredible issue on Teen-age suicide that was not to be missed.
    Try a comic book store if you can't find it elsewhere.
    
    
    
                                       L.J.
    
    
    p.s. I adore Elfquest!

    I agree with the person who thought that Gary will have Sid and B.D.
    change; not Boopsie.  Remember her back in the mid-seventies, when
    "Vogue" magazine was her sole reading material?
    
    In fact, I can't help but wonder if he has her and B.D. go on the
    rocks the way JJ and Mike did a few years back (when she went
    pop-art, dragging Mike along...)
    
    Jim

Moondog comics.  20yrs ago; wordless, post-apocolypse.  EXTREMELY weird.  I've
only ever met one other person who even remembers it.

    I read in the early/mid 80's a comic book called "Sisterhood of Steel".
    
    I think (unfortuantely) it was discontinued.
    
    *sigh*
    
    -Jody
    

	Well I, for one, miss "Pudge,Girl Blimp"



  Bobbi "Ex-hippies can have deadlines; can deadlines have ex-hippies?" Fox

    re: .34
    
       Sisterhood of Steel was indeed cancelled...however!  There is now
    a graphic novel (8"x11" format) out and the author states that more
    are on the way...so keep looking.  I'll post a note here if it comes
    out to keep you all updated on it.  If you want more info on the
    graphic novel please use mail and I'll do what I can.
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

    re: .36
    
    yes, please do!
    
    I would also love to find the 1st book (have been checking w/stores for
    a while) because the art on the cover was GREAT.
    
    -Jody
    

    I will see what I can do out here in California about getting
    you a copy...can't have mine!  Nyah, nyah!  ;^)
    
    
    
                                 L.J.

    > And BD brushes off the contract she negotiated with a
    > stern, "Remember, you're talent and I'm management".
      
    Yeah, and then he complained to Sid, "You call this a contract?"
    Same thing he'd said to her.  I got the impression that the agent's
    take wasn't as high as he wanted it, meaning she'd negotiated more 
    for herself.  BD is being forced to acknowledge the changes.  I got
    a huge laugh when Sid brought her a script about a Gulf vet who goes
    beserk in a mall, which startles BD; Boopsie adds, "so I play the vet?"
    keeping the rollercoaster moving.  BD has got a lot of growing to do,
    I'll be hoping Trudeau pulls it off.  He's certainly started it before,
    with Ginny and Clyde, but I don't remember if Clyde ever reformed or
    just dropped out of Ginny's life (or was pitched ;-).  
     
    DougO

    Ginny and Jonie worked Clyde into a subtle understanding.
    (Jonie met him and talked to him later.  She said something like 
    "You've changed" ane he replied something like "I'm working on it".)
    
    Even after all of these years, I like to imagine that there is still
    hope for BD.
    
    Cindi

    I always thought it was Joanie... ;-)
    
    and in re BD, do you think he has any hair under that helmet?
    
    Bon

    My favorite sequence, out of all of them is,
    
    "And the Kid Goes for Broke", which is the collection in which
    JOANIE [ ;~-> fine- pick on it- go ahead- i'm not sensitive about
    it, really (sniff) I'm not.. (sniff) sensative about my spelling
    at all (sniff sniff)- gosh- you guys are going to make me have
    to work on that... 24 years of spelling bliss shot down by =wn=
    (blow) ] is finally capable of opening up for a new relationship.
    
    As far as BD's hair goes... For as long as the character has existed
    within anthologies (I think I have the oldest, even before he drew
    mouths on individuals who weren't speaking.  Before there was even
    a Walden Pond it has been true.) I do not think I have EVER seen
    BD's hair.  And if I did, I am sure that I could not tell it was
    him.
    
    Cindi

    Cindi
    
    I've seen all of them too! Even the terribly sexist ones, like
    the nude girl who bounces into the interviewer's office and
    when asked why she wants to go to Yale replies 'what do you think'
    and the interviewer writes, 'strong interest in the arts'..
    
    that was later cleaned up to fit in the papers with some clothes
    on her...
    
    and I agree, in the first strip when Mike meets his computer
    selected roommate, B.D. is wearing a football helmet.
    
    and the series of strips where Joanie tells Rick "I make pretty
    good breakfast too' and he g ets startled, and the following
    ones, with the ringing phone and the subsequent conversation...
    
    are lovely... "well I like him"....
    
    I also like the stripss where Joanie and Rick are dealing with
    having a child...
    
    Bonnie

    re:.29
    
    	� and is the 'new wonderwoman' still being published?
    	I really loved it, and used to buy it for my daughter. �
    
    Yes, it's still being published. Recently had its 50th issue, as
    I recall. I stopped buying it some time back for a few reasons,
    the most telling being that it seemed to become less focussed on
    portraying women's role in society and more focussed on the usual
    superheroics. It still made for positive role models of strong
    women (not just the title character, but some of the supporting
    cast as well), but the stories themselves were far less interesting.
    I'm given to understand that a relatively recent issue focussed on
    one of the supporting characters, Vanessa's, first period, so it's
    obviously not all superheroics.
    
    re:.30
    
    The writer of THE X-MEN, Chris Claremont, has a reputation of creating
    strong female characters. So much so that it's almost become a joke
    within the industry -- he's sometimes referred to as "Chris Is-There-
    Any-Reason-Why-This-Character-Can't-Be-A-Woman Claremont". That this
    *is* thought of as a joke might tell you something about the sexism
    of the comics industry. Still, sometimes it *does* seem as if he
    overdoes it. Not so much that it's a bad thing in itself, but that
    it often seems to be done out of shameless self-promotion than anything
    else.
    
    On the other hand, the man *does* have a way with strong female
    characters. There's a graphic novel he did with artist John Bolton
    called MARADA THE SHE WOLF, which is a damn fine sword-&-sorcery
    story over and above the fact of the protagonist's sex. He also
    wrote a short piece, "Solo" for an anthology comic AMAZING ADVENTURES
    that is a remarkably sensitive and understanding look at the issue
    of rape from the viewpoint of the victim. It's one of those instances
    in which you find it hard to believe that it could've been written
    by a man.
    
    re:.33
    
    	� Moondog comics. 20yrs ago; wordless, post-apocolypse.
    	EXTREMELY weird. I've only ever met one other person who
    	even remembers it. �
    
    Well, meet another. George Metzger lives! I've still got every
    issue, plus his related one-shot, TRUCKIN'. Great stuff. I haven't
    *thought* of them, let alone read them, in 20 years. I guess it's
    time to dig them out and re-read.
    
    re:.34
    
    I couldn't get into SISTERHOOD OF STEEL, but that's life. Its
    writer, Christy Marx has also occasionally written for television,
    including an episode of THE TWILIGHT ZONE in which a shy, mousy
    type builds up her self-image with the help of a slick, manipulative,
    immortal womannizer. She finds out that there is a hidden price tag,
    though, but her new-found confidence enables her to turn the tables
    on him in a delightfully nasty way. "The punishment fits the crime"
    was never truer.
    
    Other worthy comics to look for:
    
    I echo previous comments about LOVE AND ROCKETS. Great female
    (and Hispanic) characters and outstanding writing.
    
    OMAHA THE CAT DANCER seems to be a favorite with women. The title
    character is an "exotic dancer", the story is part soap opera,
    part mystery, and there's a lot of graphic, explicit sex, but it
    has honest portraits of real characters, male, female, gay, bi,
    and het. One might point out the deficiency of racial minorities,
    but then, it would be difficult to tell, since all of the characters
    are drawn as anthropomorphic animals. For what it's worth, the
    writer of this title is female.
    
    I echo D!'s mention of GIVE ME LIBERTY, whose protagonist is a black
    woman. It is rather violent and militaristic, though. In a note in
    the SF conference, I also mention similar works (dark, militaristic
    future) with minority characters, both of which are unfortunately
    no longer being published: SABRE and SCOUT.
    
    Another dystopian future, but which nevertheless leaves you with a
    feeling of hope is V FOR VENDETTA. It's set in a fascist future
    Britain of the late 1990's, and is superficially about a self-styled
    Guy Fawkes who plays hob with the government. At the core, though,
    it's about heart and soul and compassion and basic human integrity.
    The principal supporting character is a young woman named Evey who
    experiences a psychologically brutal rite of passage, but in a
    Nietzshean sort of way, gains the strength from it to become the
    builder of a new society. One epistlatory chapter of the graphic
    novel is a flashback telling of the experiences of a lesbian actress
    named Valerie in the wake of the fascist revolution. I've read this
    particular chapter uncounted times, and it is one of the most moving
    stories I've ever read, prose or graphic. It never fails to bring
    tears to my eyes. 
    
    Last, but not least, DC Comics has a wonderful supernatural fantasy
    comic titled THE SANDMAN. The title character is Morpheus, a.k.a.
    Dream, one of The Endless, a group of siblings who are personifi-
    cations of various metaphysical concepts. One of Dream's siblings
    is the funkiest portayal of Death you'll ever see, drawn as a Nagel
    woman.
    
    --- jerry

        re .44,
        
>>   On the other hand, the man *does* have a way with strong female characters.
        
        How do male portrayals of strong female characters differ
        from female portrayals of strong female characters?
        
        Dan

    AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH Jerry beat me to it. I was gonna put in the
    Sandman this morning. Death is one of the most wonderful personalities
    I have ever read about in comics. Also, recommended reading is Amazing
    Heroes dated May 15, 1988. Forget the number. 181 or 381 or something.
    This is an industry realated mag. Interviews and such. It contains
    articles, interviews, and profiles of some of todays creators and
    editors in comics, all of whom happen to be women. There are a lot more
    then one might think. It's a good read.
    
    PJ

    B-R
    
    Re: Jonie-
    
    That window fade into their new relationship has got to be the
    most sensitive, gently revealing presentation I have ever seen
    in the comics.  I thought it was extreemly explicit, yet understated
    enough to keep it sweet and gentle.
    
      ... and Joanie was not objectified at all.
    
    Beautiful.
    
    Comic Campers- Have we forgotten, although she may not currently
    be in print....
    
          The green queen herself.
    
    She Hulk.
    
    She was ANYTHING but male dependant.
    
    Cindi

    For those not in the know, there are also comic strips (of the daily
    newspaper funnies, variety) for/about Lesbians...
    
    Dykes to Watch Out For, by Alison Bechdel (I have a Dykes to Watch Out
    For calendar on my wall) - funny stuff for everyone, not just Dykes :-)
    
    and
    
    Morgan Calabrese, by <I'm blanking on the name> - which is my alltime
    favorite strip!  (Even though I have never actually read it in daily
    form.)
    
    D!

    I'm still skeptical about the avenue Doonesbury takes.  Sure, he was
    groundbreaking in the 70s.  The climate was right.  Today, however,
    the jokes have gone hard-edged and serious.  People, (and I use that in
    the general sense, in the way a person working for "the people" has to
    think about them), are thin-skinned, unsure, suspicious, angry and
    afraid.  This is hardly a climate conducive to cute little jokes about
    women getting all liberated and stuff and guys being surprised but
    happy in the end like it was in the 60s and 70s. 
    
    Today, relations between the sexes are at high tension and deadly
    serious and any artist who doesn't sense this and deal with it isn't going 
    to fare well.  Joanie getting on a motorcycle today would be ho-hum and
    probably even seem a little old-fashioned.  I just don't think Donnesbury is
    in the same class of comics as Beetle Bailey, which still gets away,
    (for some reason unknown to me!), with tired old jokes.  Trudeau has
    always been more of a visionary and as such, I think he would be
    letting down his audience and himself if he delivers an overly pat
    conclusion, or the now worn-out cliche of having a bubblehead get a
    brain and her man, (men), grumbling but adjusting.  Today it doesn't happen
    much.   Today men grumble and leave, grumble and rape, grumble and kill
    or grumble and get their way.  Between the sexes, it seems to be "cards 
    on the table time" to quote the great English Beat, and I can't help but 
    believe that Trudeau and other visionaries like him know it.  I don't see 
    him using a cliche and I don't see him having BD kill or rape her to
    bring her back into line, either. 
    
    And that's why I think he'll just let it drop.  But then he did bring
    it up in the first place.  And I do think it's possible he could pull
    it off with his usual panache.  I await it every day to see.  So far,
    he's busy "catching up" with the other characters.  Among other things,
    he may be mulling over this very storyline.   
    
    Sandy

    Another comic book recommendation, a specific issue this time.
    The comic is called ZOT! The comic is nominally about this
    mid-teen superhero on a parallel Earth, though it focuses less
    on superheroics than it does on character interaction. For a
    number of issues, Zot's been stranded on "our" Earth and hanging
    out with Jenny (his kinda girlfriend from this Earth) and her
    schoolfriends. Issue #33, titled "Normal" concerns one of Jenny's
    friends, Terry, coming to grips with the realization that she's
    gay. Very well-done and very moving.
    
    --- jerry

    D!, "Morgan Calabrese" is my fave current strip too, and I always
    forget the writer's name -- as if it wasn't hard enough to find
    the collections already.  Anyway, I beLEIVE it's something like...
    
    ... H. Leigh Dunlap?
    
    Anyway, something which sounds like the name of a late 19th century
    tediously respected and now completely unread American novelist
    specializing in 3-volume natterings about the Boston upper classes. 
    Spiffy name for a way cool cartoonist.
    
    Ray (catching up and making a sacred vow to write that Donna Barr piece
    for =wn=....)

    re: .34
    
       Well I looked but can't find another copy of the Sisterhood of
    Steel graphic novel.
    
       I am more than willing to send you my copy to read as long as
    you mail it back.  If this is desirable please send me your address
    via mail and I'll get it out to asap.
    
    
    
                                      L.J.

    I *really* appreciate your offer - particularly since I know that many
    people who have/keep/collect comics NEVER lend them out becaue they
    love them so much, or want to make *sure* they're kept in pristine
    condition.
    
    But an angel heard my prayers and is *giving* me a copy.
    
    *sigh*  - miracles never cease!
    
    -Jody-from-somewhere-on-cloud-9!