Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Call 911.
    
                                      L.J.

    Call the police. Tell them that the people in question are
    disturbing the peace. It may come to nothing, but at the very
    least, the police will have a record of *something* regarding
    that address. And you never know, having the police show up
    on their doorstep may actually be a positive move.
    
    --- jerry

    I would just mind my own business.  Of course I don't know
    
    the level of screaming and yelling that your talking about.
    
    Tony S.

    I had some neighbors like that.  She screamed a lot, I heard banging,
    I knew he drank, I thought he was beating her.  I didn't call anyone,
    once I heard banging and her screaming when I knew she was home and
    he wasn't...
    
    Still don't know what I should have done...
    
    ed

    Back in 1979 my then wife and I woke up at 2 in the morning by a couple
    screaming in intense rage at each other. We heard blows being traded
    with the man getting the some major punches in. It seemed to be coming
    from outside. We looked out and saw him beating the life out of her on
    the lawn of the apartment building. I watched to see if it became
    lifethreatening, while my wife called the cops. The woman was just
    lying on the ground without even the strength to cry by the time the
    cops showed up. It was 2-3 minutes. Now, we didn't go out, but watched
    from our bedroom window. Almost immediately after the cops came she got
    up and refused to let them take him in. The couple went into the house
    with their arms around each other and the cops drove away. 
    
    I don't know what they could have done (the cops) at that point, not
    having witnessed anything, but I have always been ashamed that I didn't
    try to do more. I know I know. If she put up with it, chances are I
    might have ended up in jail or worse and I had a daughter and my wife
    was pregnant at the time. I just never felt right about it swear that
    it won't happen again if I ever see it again. 
    
    BTW. The couple moved out a month later. Sometimes you gotta act on
    what you see and sometimes you're helpless. D, you know the situation
    better then any of us can. Even if that's just from being near where
    it's happening. We can advise and give personal experiences and i pray
    they help you and I pray for that couple and for the woman to be free
    of her pain, but you have to decide what you think is best. Your closer
    to it. I hope this helps a little.
    
    Love and Light and prayers.
    
    PJ

    After the _third_ night, it's hard to believe it's "just a fight".
    Besides, in my opinion, if the "fight" disturbs the neighbors, it's
    gone too far to be minimized under that label.
    
    In your position, I would probably call the police at the first _sign_
    of a recurrence, and tell them it'd happened for several nights.
    
    I'm assuming you don't know either of the parties involved.
    
    Bob

    
    If you're wondering whether to call the cops, it's probably time to
    call the cops.  (So what if you call and it *is* "just a fight"?
    There's really no way of knowing this anyway, unless you're right
    there in the thick of it.)
    
    CQ

    I've been there. Happened next door to me. Because the husband was a
    drug dealer, and rather intimidating looking, I was deathly afraid of
    getting involved. But I did call the police twice.
    
    She always took him back.
    
    He ended up going to jail for dealing; she moved back home with mom.
    Shortly thereafter when my home was robbed, the police who came said
    that my building got LOTS of calls, so apparently, many of us had
    called about the couple.
    
    There are TWO reasons to call; one, that you fear for the parties
    involved, and also, because its a disturbance. Don't hesitate. And
    never feel bad about calling. But also, don't expect it to change their
    relationship.

    Call.  As soon as it starts, call.  The fact that a man may have a woman 
    convinced that if she says anything he'll come back and kill her does
    not negate the fact that she is being beaten.  
    
    If we just stand by and let things happen, then we might as well join
    right in.
    
    
    E Grace
    

I agree with E, L.J., and the several others who say, call.  DON'T go over
yourself; remember that more police are hurt in cases of domestic disputes than
any other kind, and they are (hopefully) trained and are certainly armed and
prepared for 'most anything.

The saddest part is when, as PJ mentioned, an abused woman turns on the cops in
favor of the man.

Hugs, D!.

Sara

	What sort of response you get from the cops depends a lot on where you
live.  When I lived in one of the "nice" sections of Waltham (near the Lincoln
line), we called the cops on our next door neighbor one night at 10:00 pm when
the son and his girlfriend had a screaming match on the front lawn.  We waited
until it had gone on for a while. She was yelling "Joey, I want my stuff back"
and he was yelling at her, and the father was yelling "Joey, you asshole, get
back in the house." (It was raining.)

	We put up with it for a bit, then called when the grilfriend got in the
car and started blowing her horn.  She drove off, probably when she saw the
cruiser coming. The cops were very polite and told us to be sure to call if
there were any more problems.  We never had to call the cops on the neighbors
again.


In contrast:

	This past weekend, the duplex next door to our house on the Cape had
a party.  Only half of the duplex is currently occupied, and the house itself
has a long history of involvement with the local authorities. [The couple who
used to live in the other half fought constantly, and in the end, the man
stabbed the woman (non-fatally, I believe) on the patio of the house across
the street from ours, but I digress...]  Anmyway, we don't mind parties, after
all, it's our vacation house and we have parties, but a couple of (very drunk)
guys ended up getting into a fight.  My sisters (neither I, nor my parents were
home when this started) called the cops.  When the fight moved from the back
yard to street, the cops were called again.  When one guy threw the other
*through* the back window of my dad's station wagon, they added a call to
the ambulance.  Talking with the neighbors in the aftermath, the cops were
called at least 5 times, yet they arrived *more than 10 minutes after the
ambulance* [As far as we know, no charges were pressed.  The "thrower" was
supposedly the brother of the "throwee" and ran off before the cops came.]


My advice:

	If it's disturbing you, call.  If the fight moves out of the house,
or blows are struck, definitely call.

						--Doug

    I also agree, call the police at the first sign of a recurrance.  Even
    though you cannot know the situation or the outcome, and it may come to
    naught, at least if someone gets hurt the next time, or the time after
    that, you will know you did something to try to stop it.
    
      -HA

    No such thing as "just a domestic quarrel."  Just last night on
    Chronicle I think they were discussing how dangerous and prevalent
    domestic violence is.  Society and police must realize that this
    violence is as violent and horrible as any other.
    
    Call 911. 
    
    M.
    

    
    One other thing; you do not have to identify yourself when you call. If
    you don't want to identify yourself, then don't. But don't let that
    stop you from calling.

    I asked my wife about this; she is a psychologist and deals with
    situations like this all the time.  Her advice:
    
    Call the police.  If you want to remain anonymous, then do not call
    911, as the computer will tell the police who you are; just call the
    regular police number.  You do not have to say who you are, though
    they will ask.
    
    From your description this is far beyond a "domestic squabble".
    Assault is a crime.  So is disturbing the peace.  And you might be
    saving somebody's life.  How the police handle it depends on how they
    are trained in handling domestic violence.
    
    If the couple are not too far gone, police showing up may force them
    to realize that they have problems and that they should seek
    counseling.
    
    My wife often sees the woman in such situations, and her advice to them
    is:
    
    (1)	Move out.
    (2)	Get a restraining order.  This will force the man to move out.
    (3)	After he is gone, move back in and change the locks.
    (4)	Bring charges.
    
    Judges do grant these orders.  There have been some judges who did not,
    and in one controversial case, the woman was killed three days later. 

    I would like to address the carefully-cultivated myth expressed in
    .10:  "more police are hurt in cases of domestic disputes than any
    other kind".
    
    Here are exerpts from _Women_Who_Kill_ on the subject (pages 304-5).
    
    "It is hard to determine from the FBI statistics just how many officers
    have been killed or injured on domestic disturbance calls because
    those calls fall under the general heading of "Disturbance," a
    category that also includes street corner fights and highly dangerous
    "man-with-a-gun" calls.  During the period 1968-77, however, FBI
    statistics indicate that most officers were killed responding to
    robbery and burglary calls (287) or in attempting other arrests (241).
    Almost as many officers lost their lives in traffice pursuits (121)
    as in disturbances of all kinds (175).  ...[T]he false belief of
    many officers that family quarrels are the most dangerous assignment
    ... has led the police into the greater danger of leaving them
    unprepared to deal with "routine" robberies which in fact are far
    more dangerous.  During the five years covered in Fyfe's study
    (1970-75) nearly one-third of the incidents in which police fired
    their guns were robberies.  By contrast, only 12 percent of firings
    were precipitated by disputes of all kinds, from barroom brawls to
    wife assaults."
    
    "Officers often claim -- and advise wives -- that arresting the
    battering husband will only make him angrier and more dangerous, but
    since the police have never made it a practice to arrest wife-beaters,
    they have no data to verify or disprove this opinion.  ...  Battered
    wives often report that when police leave the decision to press
    charges up to the wife, the husband grows angrier and more threatening,
    for he holds her solely responsible for his arrest; but on the other
    hand, when police officers themselves make the arrest, wives report
    that husbands sometimes are cowed, and at least for a short time,
    maintain good behavior."
    
    So, when you call, you should (if the opportunity presents itself)
    urge the police to make the arrest, if they find there are grounds.
    
    						Ann B.

digressing a bit,,,

Before we bought our house, we rented the second floor of a house,
next door to a three family.

On the first floor of the three family, a single women lived with two
small children,  one was about four, the other an infant.  she wasn't
married, and as far as we know, never was.

I didn't know much about the woman, till our landlords son started
seeing her.  According to him, the lady had quite an appetite for
cocaine...  As a result, she was pretty lame in terms of caring for
her children.  to the point where many times, I'd see little Shawn
(the four year old) roaming the streets at 9:30/10:00 pm. either
on foot, or on his bike. 

This really disturbed my wife and I...  but we never really let it go
beyond ourseleves.  As time went on, the situation didn't improve...

once night,, around 10:45 p.m. I get a knock at my door, and it's
Shawn, he's crying, his mother wasn't home, he and his infant brother
were apparently all alone, and had been alone since about 2:30/3:00
in the afternoon...  

I brought Shawn in, and thought for a moment..  Do I go over there ?
Do I call the police ?  I called the police, explained the situation.

Within 2 minutes, three cruisers are infront of the house,  I go down,
and three officers follow me up to our apartment.  Two of the officers
tend to Shawn, who's now petrified by everything happening.  These
two police officers head over to the house next door with Shawn, and one 
stays with us, asking questions...

We held nothing back..  within 20 mintes, someone from the DSS shows up
in another cruiser..  The police come back to our home an hour later, and one 
of the officers told my wife and I a horror story of a pig-stye mess, baby 
sitting in what seemed days of waste in his diaper, drinking spoiled formula.
Garbage smeered all over the place and a horrid mess strewn all over the house
The DSS officer almost puked when she walked in. The police 
officer calimed in 20 years on the force, he'd never seen such a mess.

I told the police that I really wasn't sure what to do, and not wanting
to cause trouble, but this had gone too far ..  He assured me I'd done right,
and as far as the DSS officer was concerend, this lady was a prime example
of an unfit mother.  No way had such a mess eveloved in one day.. Nope,
took months to get that way..  Charges of neglect and abuse were going to
be filed the next morning.  The mother, by the way, showed  about 3:00 a.m. 
and was QUITE surprised to see two police officers and a DSS officer sitting 
in her kitchen waiting for her...  (this I get from talking to Dave,
Landlords son..  He asked me if I knew who called the cops ?  I said
"What cops ?"  but I assume they all  who called...)

To make a long story short, 
she was arrested on Coke charges 2 weeks later, for the second time
in 6 months.  DSS  assumed custody of the children..   That's the last
I heard, and I really don't know what happened after that.  At the
time of this incident, we were in the midst of settling a house purchase,
and thankfully, we closed and moved three weeks later.



Morale of the story...

	If you think you should call the police,,,

		Then it's probably time to call the police.

    re .16:
    Perhaps this myth was born because police officers dealing with
    "domestic disputes" have often felt not in control and badly equipped to
    deal with such situations?  Thus they _remember_ them as more dangerous
    (especially the ones that've gotten out of hand) although the
    statistics don't match.
    
    
    How to deal with the police-that-don't-show-up was also discussed in
    83.390,.391 fairly recently.
    

    
    
    
    
    Call the Police.
    
    You have nothing to lose.  She does.
    
    
    kathy

    
    
    In Seattle, if the police are called out on a domestic dispute charge,
    they have to arrest one of the parties whether the other files charges
    or not.  I think that this is a great new law and that other states
    should start using it.  It takes some of the pressure off of the abused
    person and the abuser gets to go before a judge after spending the
    night in jail - pretty sweet, huh?!
    
    Lorraine

re .20

I hope there are at least *some* safeguards there, so if your neighbor is mad at
what your dog did to his petunias he can't call in a bogus domestic dispute 
charge with the guarantee that one of you will be arrested.

    re.16

    �I would like to address the carefully-cultivated myth expressed in
    �.10:  "more police are hurt in cases of domestic disputes than any
    �other kind".

	Sara never said that and you are not using the I language
	guidelines of this conference.

                                  L.J.

     re .22 USWRSL::SHORTT_LA
    
    >       Sara never said that and you are not using the I language
    >       guidelines of this conference.
     
    Below is the full text of .10.  Please read it carefully...
    (To make it easier, I have highlighted the relevent portion.)
    
    >are not using the I language guidelines of this conference.
    
    what in .16 called for the use of "I" language?
    
    D!
    
            <<< IKE22::$1$DKB700:[NOTESFILES]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 845.10            Last night I heard the screaming...              10 of 22
BTOVT::THIGPEN_S "colors all in flight!"             11 lines  30-MAY-1991 08:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with E, L.J., and the several others who say, call.  DON'T go over
yourself; remember that more police are hurt in cases of domestic disputes than
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
any other kind, and they are (hopefully) trained and are certainly armed and
    ^^^^^^^^^^
prepared for 'most anything.

The saddest part is when, as PJ mentioned, an abused woman turns on the cops in
favor of the man.

Hugs, D!.

Sara

    >  <<< Note 845.22 by USWRSL::SHORTT_LA "Total Eclipse of the Heart" >>>

    >re.16

    >�I would like to address the carefully-cultivated myth expressed in
    >�.10:  "more police are hurt in cases of domestic disputes than any
    >�other kind".

    >	Sara never said that and you are not using the I language
    >	guidelines of this conference.
    >
    >                              L.J.
    
    
    
    She didn't?
    
    She's not?
    
    I don't understand that, L.J.  
    
    E Grace

    I think L.J. is referring to mail I sent her asking her to use
    'I' language more. 
    
    Bonnie

    I think LJ is being deliberately argumentative.
    
    D!

    Well D! that could be true, I'd like to give her the benefit of the
    doubt however. Often people don't realize that typing on the video
    screen comes over a lot harsher more arugmentative than it would
    in real life. I'd like to encourage LJ to participate and share, if
    that is what she really intends, and not label her as argumentative
    because of a few unfortunate first replies. Bonnie

well, my reply was poorly worded; Ann's comment on it seemed worded as a cool
rebuff to me, but factual and not worth argument; LJ seemed to be defending
me in some sense, though that was not needed; and D! a bit too ready to 
ascribe ill intent.


Can we all lighten up a bit with eachother!

Sara

    Thanks Sara 
    
    ;-)
    
    hugs
    
    Bonnie

    I was afraid it might look like a rebuff to Sara, so I left her
    name out of it.  (And I was afraid of bogging down in a pre-emptive
    apology.)  It was meant as a rebuff to the idea, and to its
    promulators who are in a position to know/learn its falsity, but
    not to those innocents like Sara, who think� ~This is so horrendous
    that I would like it to not be true, but by our Puritan ethic, that
    means it probably is true, so as a good dobee, I'll mention it.~
    
    						Ann B.
    
    � This is my suspicion, anyhow.

    
    Call the police.
    
    Desryn
    

    re.26
    
    �    I think LJ is being deliberately argumentative.
    
    	I don't like your seemingly condescending attitude in 845.23 D.
    	Thank you for explaining yourself Ann.
    
                                      L.J.
    

    
    
    I usually call the police whenever I am concerned over something in my
    neighborhood.  They are allways prompt and polite and they are allways
    better armed than I am ( I do not own a gun. ).  One should never
    hesitate to call the police at the first sign of trouble, better a
    false alarm than being sorry later for not acting.  I have also 
    reported people to the Department of Children and Youth Services
    for abusive behavior toward children.  In Connecticut we also have
    a family violence law that states that the officer must make an
    arrest if there is any sign that abuse or a struggle took place.
    We have seen a significant reduction in domestic violence since this
    law took effect because it does not require the spouse to press
    charges or testify and it releive the officer of a difficult decision.
    It also allow the Judge to sentence the offender to a re-hab program
    if he chooses.
    
    Harry
    

    
    I just want to say that this is exactly why I have stayed out of this
    file for such a long time.  A person can't say anything and someone is
    out there just waiting to pounce on them.  I used to enjoy this file, a
    long time ago, loved the people, loved all the ideas, then all of a
    sudden....POW!  it started.  I left the file.  I think I should have
    stayed gone.
    
    The topic here has totally gone astray.
    
    Kindness and Tolerance.......its lost!
    
    Jackie 
           

    Jackie,
    
    I'll reply to your note as I've replied to others, *one* person
    *not* the file responded in a strong negative fashion, and *it is 
    okay to object or get upset* two other people repsoned to the
    negative response, in a postive, warm fashion. Each of those people
    are individuals. If you are concerned about the pouncing  then be
    a force for peace. be a comfortor, an explainer, a mediator.
    
    You and I were mail friends a while  back and I think you have a lot
    to contribute. "why don't you stay.." in the words of a 'pop song'.
    
    Bonnie

    Going through some changes myself awhile back, I left notes. Didn't
    last long. The argumentativeness (I can't say that and probably spelled
    it wrong) is part of why I'm here. It shows different points of view
    and allows for the free shnge of ideas. The name calling and backbiting
    that happens occasionly is not why I'm here. I don't like it. I haven't
    seen to much, if any of it, in this string. Please don't anyone leave
    because of this string. So many wonderful people, including not a few
    of the read onlies, wrote to me and said stay. I hope you do to Jackie,
    please.
    
    Now to get back to the topic. D  CALL THE COPS PLEASE. As I said in my
    previous reply, part of my mental make up is to brood (Not good, but
    sometimes needed) on my mistakes in life. Not calling the police myself
    or going to break it up was something I will always be ashamed of. It
    has allowed me to say never again, in my presence, no matter what the
    consequences. Even if both turned on me, at least the woman would be
    safe for a time and if the cops got there soon, maybe for all time.
    Don't hesitate. I implore you, CALL THE COPS.
    
    PJ

    
    Let me just say this.....I really loved this file, I didn't agree with
    everything, and maybe that's why I liked it, it gave me different view
    points.....but then it seemed to change...men against women, woman
    against feminist women, etc., it seemed like you just couldn't have an
    opinion anymore.....people would jump all over you, pick things apart,
    turn things around, it just seemed the "love" or caring went out of it.  
    
    I was really disappointed.  I loved this file.  Well I got into it
    again a little while ago, re:  Tommy.  The love was in that file!  So I
    thought okay, its back.....then I ran into this one.....
    
    I know this isn't the place, but wasn't sure if I wanted to "WRITE" or
    "REPLY".... Wasn't sure if I started a new one, if people would jump
    all over me, so I didn't.  
    
    One thing for sure, with all of the MAIL messages I have received, I
    guess I am not the only one that feels this way.....doesn't make me
    feel better about anything....but I was thinking that it was just me,
    you know gal from a small town etc. (Now, don't jump all over me
    because I used the word gal!)
    
    Oh well,  Thanks to all who have written me!
    
    Jackie  %^)
    
     

    How about all the people who wrote to Jackie also write in the file
    and help things mellow out a bit?
    
    Bonnie

    
    The ONLY thing a bystander should and can do to help, is call the police.  
    You should not get involved - you may end up being hurt, killed or arrested 
    yourself.  When my ex was in one of his "moods" - he was very irrational, 
    and would have hurt anything or anyone in the way.  I was the easiest thing
    - the dog we had would have bit him back. 
    
    I know the helplessness and frustration one feels when one sees abuse 
    occuring, verbally or physically, friend or stranger. I know it's hard to 
    see a person being abused, and not at least say something, but the victim 
    will not listen to you.  No one could have said anything or done anything 
    to make me leave my ex-husband until I was ready to.  I knew it wasn't a 
    healthy relationship (understatement (-:), but I didn't acknowledge it 
    until I wanted to.  I kept myself in sort of a "dream" state.  I was very 
    good at fooling myself.  
    
    I've had people talk to me about bad relationships they are in, and inside 
    I want to shake them and say "wake up"!, but it won't do any good.  The 
    best you can do is offer some gentle suggestions as to seeking counseling, 
    and if there are children, the impact on them, etc., offer your support as
    a friend, but don't let them "cling" to you, as people in such an
    unhealthy emotional state are very, very inclined to latch onto the
    first strong person they come in contact with. Offer to "hold their
    hand, but not to "carry" them. They must resolve this themselves! Just 
    hope they wake up someday. I never start a conversation regarding this, 
    but gently "steer" the conversation towards this ("how are you doing, 
    how's the family, etc.) I know there are exceptions to the "rule" but 
    this is the most common reaction/way a victim reacts/acts.  Sometimes
    they "wake up", sometimes they go back to the same person, sometime
    they find a new one just like the old.  And to be honest, there will be
    more disappointments that "victories", but there is alway hope, as long
    as there is one person that will heal themselves.
    
    C. (-:
    
    

    re .39 I realize that rationally I shouldn't become actually physically
    involved for all of the reasons you state. However from a pure
    emotional level, I will not put up with it if I see it. I don't care.
    It's worth my life to me to stop it. This isn't done out of any macho
    hero thing. Goddess knows I'm not in shape. 6 ft. 265 lbs. with a belly
    and a bag back. Closing in on 40 and never really been a physical type.
    I just think of that woman I saw and I swear it will never happen in
    front of me again. IT JUST WON'T.
    
    PJ

Yes, call the police. 

Also,  I don't think it is out of line to make sure the attacked
person knows about resources available to them. Mail them
the phone number and descriptions of whatever local organizations
can help.  Or call them on the phone when you think they are alone.

I would also do this anonymously unless I knew the person
and the situation very well. There are lots of psychos and 
lots of uninformed people. 

Sometimes calling the police can be a pain. I drove past a few kids
parked in an isolated area at midnight a few weeks ago, by the TAY plant. 
It looked like the guy was beating up the girl.  I slowed the car down
and hollered "Are you OK?"  The girl hollered something back ...
didn't understand the words but they sure sounded hostile. And drunk.

Anyway, I went back to the plant and TAY security called the police.
Three minutes later I passed them again and the police were already 
there. I figured ... either they are both twits who needed babysitting
from the police or one of them needed help. I felt a shade of 
busybody-ness about calling, but then, I didn't want to feel regret
the next morning hearing about the body found on the road.

    Re: .40
    
    I can understand you're reaction, and that you would try to stop what
    was  happening, but as I counsel people as my "career", just be aware
    of the risks you are taking, and weigh that against the action you
    might take.  If you choose to intervene physically, there is a good
    possibility you will end up in jail, the hospital, or a funeral home. 
    Do you have any family responsibilities, etc.?  Think long and hard.  Once
    you act, you can't take it back.  And remember, these people are NOT 
    emotionally or mentally stable, and will not react in a "Normal" way.
    
    If one of the parties is a minor, your *ss is as good as fried.  I don't 
    know what laws concerning minors are where you live, but there are very 
    few laws here in GA. concerning minors - makes it very bad for someone 
    who works with troubled minors.  At any time, no matter what I'm doing or 
    not doing, I could get in LOTS of trouble. I have to dance on a tightrope 
    while blindfolded, over a pool of hungry pirhanas, every time I work with 
    someone, regardless of whether they are a minor or not.  It can be 
    incredibly frustrating to have to temper my involvement, but I won't be 
    doing anyone any good if I'm in jail, or my reputation in this field is 
    trashed.  All it takes is one incident.
    
    Emotionally unstable people can make up lots of wonderful things. As for 
    the situtation this topic is about. I can think of a few nice 
    senarios that could happen:  They could claim you attacked her, and he
    was defending her, they could claim you attaked him and she was
    defending him - you end up in jail, maybe with a trip to the hospital
    first.  Oh, yeah, the could also say you tried to rape one of them, on
    top of just plain ol' attacking them, for more jail time.  Or they could 
    both end up attacking you, and fortunately don't think to blame it on you 
    - you end up in the hospital or in a nice pretty funeral home.  So - what 
    good did you end up doing for anyone? Zero. Will you ever be able to
    have the opportunity to try and help someone again?  
    
    Every time I work with someone I have to go through the whole senario, 
    and look at the possibilities, weigh them, and try and figure out a way I 
    can work with the person with minimal risk to myself.  And keep in
    mind, I am doing counseling, not just a random intervention in a
    situation.  
    
    I'm not cold or over-paranoid, folks, just realistic.  Boy, the stories
    I could tell you...
    
    C. (-:
    

    re .42. Thank you very much for your words of wisdom. In the cold light
    of day, I understand and agree with them and am very aware of the
    consequences. In the heat of the moment, I'm not sure. I just remember
    thjat woman screaming and I swear it won't happen again. I was even
    squirming in my seat during a movie this weekend that had a rape scene
    in it. I just wanted to blow that person away. Luckily, the plot beat
    me to it. Believe me it was all I could do not to jump up and scream at
    the S.O.B. on the screen. Yes, I can separate reality from fantasy.
    
    You seem like a caring individual to take the time to write and warn
    myself and any others of the risks. Thank you and they are words to
    think seriously about. I live in New Hampshire and occasionally spend
    some time in Mass. and the laws are much the same. I just don't think I
    could sit idly waiting for the police to maybe show up in tiome to save
    someone's mental mor physical wellbeing.
    
    PJ

    
    You're very welcome PJ.  I've read this Notesfile for quite a while,
    and from your entries, I can tell you are a very caring individual. 
    You're friends and family are lucky to be able to associate with a
    person such as yourself.  That's why I was and am so concerned - I'd
    hate to see you, or anyone for that matter end up in trouble from
    trying to help, without at least knowledge before hand of the risks
    involved.  If you think there is a possibility of coming in contact
    with a situation like decribed in this topic, you might consider
    reading/researching about abusive relationships, and laws where you
    live/work to help you better understand the emotions/mentality
    involved, and the legalities involved.  It might help your
    reaction in the "heat of the moment".   (I know being aware of the
    possibilities hhas helped my reaction become more "cool" and
    "logical" -really better for all parties involved.)
    
    Let me know if there is anything I can do/advise.  I'm more than happy
    too.
    
    C. (-:
    

    Thank you for the compliments, C. I'm not sure I'm worthy, but I'll
    take them as they are very well intentioned. It's nice read something
    from someone who is so strongly oppinionated, but can still listen to
    others and try to help and shout warnings when you fear for someone.
    That's nice and it's appreciated. Womannotes at it's best.
    
    Now, yes I have children. They don't live with me, but I take my
    obligations to them very seriously. I don't miss support payments, I
    talk to them daily and see them at least once a week if not more. I
    would hate to lose that. 
    
    I don't think that the odds of me coming across a situation of danger
    to a woman out in public is very high. The situation described in my
    previous notes happened a long time (over 10 years) ago and while I
    have heard screaming at each other by couples as I walked past houses,
    I haven't ever seen or suspected any physical abuse going on. My area
    of travel does not get out of Nashua-Hudson-Merrimack N.H. very often
    and larger cities, where a public occurence might be more apt to occur
    is such a rarity as to be a major event for me. I just know that I
    could not stand idle if I was to witness such a situation again. The
    screams I heard from that woman and the thudding echos of the man's
    fist will live with me forever. I didn't think the human voice could
    scream that loud and the thuds really did echo off the buildings.
    
    Oh Goddess, more reading to do. I'll never catch up. I will look into
    the laws here as they may be slightly different from GA.
    
    Again, I thank you for your concern, I know it is well placed and well
    meant.
    
    Light and Love,
    
    PJ

    I understand your hesitancy.  I had some neighbors for whom yelling was
    the standard form of communication.  Call now and you'll never have to
    wonder if you should have called sooner.  I assumed the man in the apt.
    next door to me physically abused his wife and her kids, because he had
    the MO of an abuser, but I never actually heard blows or pain-related
    screaming--just verbal screaming.  I finally called the cops when the
    demon-children turned their aggression outside their house and
    vandalized my car.  Sounds like my priorities were screwed up there,
    huh?  But I too was afraid of the guy and didn't want him to turn his
    abuse to me.  After the incident with the cops he did try to intimidate
    me in the parking lot.  Being pregnant at the time I felt more
    physically vulnerable than ever.  And it's not like my husband and I
    tend to avoid public scenes.  He has broken up fights on city streets
    and intervened when a woman was being hassled by a guy she obviously
    knew.  
    
    After my last apartment experience and never sleeping thru a full
    night when I lived in Brooklyn one summer--I was awakened by car
    thieves, women screaming in the street, etc. and always ran to the
    window to see if I should call the cops--I'll never hesitate again.  In
    the very least it will ease my mind, if not save someone else.
    
    Nancy
    
    BTW -- it sickens me to have to hit <next reply> half a dozen times to
    get past garbage notes caused by sensitive egos when the note is
    supposed to address real-life violence.  

    Remember Kitty Genovese(?sp?).
    
    From her I gather, as the default, if you hear the screams-
    make the call.
    
    Cindi
    
    - On second thought- I will clarify, in case you have not heard
    of this specific case.  Ms. Genovese was assaulted, several times,
    and finally killed by her attacker. He assaulted her...left...came
    back and continued. She screamed the whole way.  Virtually hundreds
    of individuals heard her screams in their apartments which surrounded
    her death location.
    
    Half did not wish to get involved,
    Half thought someone else had gotten involved,
    No one called the police.
    
    A women is in no less desparate a situation because it is domestically
    motivated.
    

    Thanks for all the replies to this note.  
    
    The issue now appears to be moot.  For several nights I heard nothing,
    and then night befofre last I saw the guy sitting on the front door
    stoop.  He was still sitting there when I went to bed at midnight.  at
    about 1 I heard loud voices in the parking lot; when I looked out the
    window, there were two police cars, and the police were talking to the
    guy, telling him to take off.  I figured the woman in the house had
    called the police - the guy seemed drunk.
    
    The next morning a truck came to the house, and I saw the guying moving
    all his stuff into the truck.
    
    D!

    I've never written in this file before but this note really hit home.
    
    Pleae, please always call the police.  I lived with an abusive husband
    for many years.  There were many times that I tried to call the police
    myself but he would rip the phone from the wall.  I't true that a
    victim has to leave when she is ready but it took the police showing up
    at my house several times for me to "wake up" and realize what I had to
    do.  I never pressed charges against my husband but the police would
    always take him away and put him into "protective custody" for the
    night.  Once I had a child I realized that no way would I subject my
    child to this.  I got a retraining order, changed the locks and filed
    for divorce.  There were some scary moments along the way but believe
    it or not, after being divorced for 5 years we're actually very civil.
    
    I didn't mean to go off on a tangent but I just wanted everyone to
    realize that sometimes a victim needs you to call the police because
    they can't.  I had a wonderful neighbor who would hear when things were
    getting bad and would call the police.  She probably saved my life.
    
    Joan  

    
    Joan, thanks for sharing.
    
    I'm so glad to hear you found a safer way to live, and that
    you're here to share with us.
    
    Carla
    

>           I got a retraining order,

Great typo, Joan!

;-)

Kathy

    Call the police.
    
    I lived in an apartment and the couple across the hall were awful,
    fighting all the time, very loudly.  Both drank a lot, it was very
    obvious from the fights and other evidence. (Bottles in the hall.)
    
    One really bad fight, I called the NYC police and when they finally
    arrived, the woman had left the apartment.  The man said she was just
    on the landing.  Turned out she had gone into the hall to cool off,
    another tenant had invited her up to his place, and was raping her!
    
    Her screams brought the police upstairs.  She was rescued (a bit too
    late, unfortunately), the other tenant was arrested (I have no idea
    what happened to him, he never returned) and the couple broke up.  She
    moved out.  The man, who stayed in the apartment, stopped drinking.  I
    moved out of the building about 1 1/2 years later.  Haven't seen any of
    them since.
    
    But call.    

Joan,

In a case where someone in a family is being regularly
violent, should the neighbors (like me) call or send
some info to make sure the agrieved party know
of groups, shelters, or programs that are ready to 
lend assistance.?

If so, is doing it anonymously OK? 

I'm really wondering about this. I've asked the question
before but never got an answer. I can clearly state I would
want to do this anonymously; otherwise, I would be afraid the
jerk in the situation would show up on my doorstep or 
vandalize my car.

 Meigs

        Anonymously mailing someone being hit an appropriate
        pamphlet about what assistance is available and how it
        has helped others in similar situations does seem like a
        good idea.  Until the person doing the hitting sees it
        lying there on the table.  If the person being hit has a
        job, perhaps you could mail an appropriate pamphlet
        there.  Otherwise it might be better to provide the
        information by phone, with a reminder to be careful where
        one leaves any written notes from the call.
        
        Dan

> 845.53, GLIDEWELL, If so, is doing it anonymously OK? 

A noter sent the following comments to my by mail, and, with
her permission (Thanks!), I'm posting them here.   Meigs

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have done this with a co-worker.  She came to work several times
visably bruised on her face and arms.  I didn't feel comfortable
confronting her because we are not close and I didn't want to embarass
her.  I left the name and number of someone from EAP on her desk under
some of her papers that I knew she would be reading.  It seems to have 
worked.  She is seeking counseling now.  I can't say that it had 
anything to do with the message I left or if she just felt that it was 
time to do something about her situation but at least now she is doing 
something for herself.  I just left the massage that everyone needs a 
little help sometimes.  I don't think it hurt any for her to know that 
people were worried about her.  If you are going to do something, just make 
sure that the abuser doesn't see it because you never know what it would 
take to set him/her off.